darth_ender

Mithrandir said:

Harmy said:

... it gives you a much needed idea about why the Empire is so bad and it has a great pay-off in the Yavin battle, when Biggs dies.

 

"The empire already starting natiolalizing commerce in the central systems"... The Empire's bad because it's socialist?? Really?

Without making this discussion overly political, I for one am largely against socialism.  I understand that government control over some aspects of the industry is important, but socialism is inherently autocratic and defeats democracy, as the government determines the market rather than the populace.  But regardless of your political/economic preferences, nationalizing commerce means taking over private businesses.  This clearly infringes on the rights of business owners.  How would you like it if you sold lemonade on the corner, with your legitimate business license of course, and the government comes along, confiscates your license, and says that the lemonade market is now under its control?  Seems wrong to me.

Anchorhead said:

 

I had to jump ship.  I made it through 15 chapters before I had to say goodbye to the Prequel references.  I was fine for a few chapters with an occasional name-check, but after a mention of Grievus, Mustafar, a couple of mentions of Gunguns, and a few other things I know are Prequel, I was quickly losing interest.

The final straw was last night, near the end of chapter 15.  When one of the main characters gets a promotion to work on the Death Star while it's being constructed, he asks his commander - "No poodoo, sir?". 

I reread the line, stopped, pondered whether or not to continue with a book I was already losing interest in, removed my book marker, closed the book, got out of bed, walked into the other room, and pulled Heir To The Empire off of the shelf. Two chapters in, It's much more what I was looking for.  It's also written with a little more serious feel.  

Regarding the prequel references;  My issue is two-fold.

1.  The novel had a feeling of everything must be viewed from a Prequel point of view.  The references seemed forced and were completely unrelated to the story.  Either by direction from Lucas, who does get peripherally involved with EU - or - maybe Reeves and Perry are just big fans of the Prequels and wanted both sets of films to be one big happy family.  The cynic in me says marketing (Lucas).  Maybe it was both.

2. I'm a linear guy.  Events that took place in 1977 came before events that took place in 2000 - even in a film franchise.  Having a prequel story is fine, but I won't ever rearrange my feeling of actual time to accommodate it.  For me, the story of the construction of the Death Star should be told from the 1977 point of view.  There is plenty of story there without having to pander to the prequel fan base or serving the franchise marketing machine.

While not a deal-breaker, I was also wearing out on the silly references. Just because it takes place in another universe, not every single thing has to reflect that.  It has a few too many instances of metaphors that mean nothing to the reader, which to me negates the point of even having a metaphoric reference in the first place.  "The commander knew so & so was slower than an ovalangk during murjonen season" or "Val woke up hungry for some esssontan meat and gghrewq eggs".  Honest to God, it was like reading a damn Ikea catalog.  Please.

 

I should have listened to my dog.  True story; Just after I bought the book and before I started reading it, he pulled it out of my bag while I was at work one day and chewed a big chunk out of a corner of the back, tore up the last 20 pages or so, messed up the spine, and tore the cover.  I was just going to struggle with that last chapter if I got that far.  Turns out it won't be an issue.

 

 

 

This book (which I have not read and likely never will) is essentially one giant retcon.  It was an attempt to mesh several inconsistent ideas into a cohesive story.  With Bevel Lemelisk, Qwi Xux, Poggel the Lesser, and a myriad of other contributors to the Death Star's design, the authors intended to make the OT, PT, and EU explanations fit.  Thus, the PT references are unavoidable; it was ingrained into the fabric of the story.

xhonzi said:

darth_ender said:

I'll be honest, I despise Shadows of the Empire on a number of levels. 

Perhaps you mean Dark Empire?

Oops.  Fixed!

I'll be honest, I despise Dark Empire on a number of levels.  Legions of dark force users and hidden good Jedi when it is stated that Vader is the last of the "Jedi religion" and the Emperor and his powers are kept vaulted up in his secret chambers.  Coruscant changing hands so casually between the New Republic and the Empire on the verge of defeat.  I mean, I thought Grand Admiral Thrawn brought them back from the brink, and now that he's gone they are even more powerful with bigger ships and new superweapons and the capacity to conquer the capital in spite of no competent military commanders leading their forces and largely devoid of resources.  And what the heck is up with steam-based space technology?  This is not the steampunk genre.  Luke falls to the dark side!  Yoda made it clear that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."  Vader/Anakin was supposed to be the unbelievably remarkable exception.  And the capital crime is the perpetual resurrection of the Emperor!  Whose clever idea was it to actually have him come back again and again and again?  It's like all those cliched comics and TV episodes where the bad guy falls to his doom, but we don't see the body.  Is he really dead?!?  Of course not!  Tune in next week!  And while it might be and interesting visual experience, paying closer attention to the plot reveals that there is nothing interesting to it...if it were written as a novel, it couldn't get more than 100 pages and would not be gripping in the slightest.

That being said, and being a fan of some EU, which often alludes to Dark Empire, I wish someone would novelize it, change the story, beef it up, add twists and turns, and basically retcon half the ideas.  I would be required to allow many faults to remain, but at least when I read references in other books, they would be to a better story than the one we got.  I really can't tell you how disappointed I am with how influential Dark Empire has been.

EDIT: Fixed misnaming of Dark Empire as Shadows of the Empire:{

Kurt said: 

I hope that faneditors won´t get too excited, putting every single DS into their cuts.

(if they should be restored to decent quality at all)

Especially the binocular & Anchorhead Luke scenes shouldn´t ever, NEVER ever, be included into STAR WARS.

It messes the structure up badly, Luke acts like a douche, and it doesn´t work as character introduction.

 Sometimes the purpose of a fanedit is not to supplant the original, but simply to provide a different perspective.  Would you download a silent film or multiple PT edits simply because you want your one and only true tale?  Or perhaps do you simply enjoy a different take on the same basic story?  I, for one, would have no problem with a fanedit incorporating these scenes.

Bingowings said:

^Which is a bit a flaw in the series as it stands.

That reduces Ben and Yoda to a couple of blokes one of which introduced Luke to the concept of fishing and gave him his first rod and another guy who taught him not to shoot at the fish when they wouldn't hop onto his hook.

Not exactly a teaching experience.

They could have just sent him a few instructional video cassettes and stayed safe and alive in their hiding places.

 On the other hand, listening to some EU, some assumption, Luke had ongoing guidance from Ben's spirit and from research and practice.  Since he is so powerful, it seems a lot might be intuitive for him as well, with the self-discipline and practice that he could provide for himself.

TheBoost said:

I want to see this dude added to the fight.

And this LADY re-dubbed with a lady voice (as "BigBadGMan" pointed out).

That would make the rebel pilots as a whole much more interesting.

 Hey!  I thought I said it first!  I demand royalties and rights when you mention redubbing the woman's voice!  In reality, I agree whole-heartedly.  Not only is it more PC to have aliens and women, but it also shows that the Rebellion has neither the resources nor the bigotry to be picky and maintain uniformity when choosing pilots.  It makes for a much more interesting Rebellion.

With the dedication shown in the preservations on this site, I find it hard to believe that this stuff can't be cleaned up by someone intent on including it in a fanedit.  It seems to me that someone could create a preservation disc of all the deleted scenes for all to use and alter for their edits.  Of course, I'm volunteering someone for something I couldn't possibly do.  I just don't like all the nay-saying.  I personally am very excited to see all this deleted stuff.

No worries.  As I said, common mistake, one that I make all the time.

I should put in my 2 credits on the frosty breath.  Personally, I like it and don't find it distracting.  I think it is simply a subtle touch and if this had been the first time I'd ever watched the film, it would not stand out to me at all.  However, as it is a laborious process, and since there are several good reasons given why the breath might not be frosty within the base, I am not offended if it is never added.  My recommendation to Adywan: go with what you prefer on this one.

Harmy said:

Well, I guess it's true that the whole concept of a space slug like that is so implausible, that any discussion of how certain scientific principles apply to it is probably quite pointless ;-)

 Though implausible, it's relatively too much.  Most movies are implausible on some level.  But movies tend to set rules for themselves on the level of suspension of disbelief.  I can buy into the concept of a giant space slug in the Star Wars universe.  I can even rationalize the gravity issue to myself within SW context (perhaps the cave curved so that outside the Falcon we still face down, and few movies accurately represent low gravity).  However, I can't buy into no pressurized suits.  That may be the one big issue that has always bothered me a bit about this movie.

Thanks for the updates.  As I stated before, I'm really looking forward to this.  I actually have never watched any of these episodes, and I as thinking of Youtubing them, but I now think I'd rather wait till a DVD version is completed.  Thanks for the effort.

PS As you mentioned that there are 14 droids episodes, I'm assuming you're including The Great Heep TV special?

EDIT: Never mind, I just took the time to read a little more in the thread and answered my own question.

I really look forward to this.  Any timeline?

The term "weight" is misused, as weight, by definition, is how hard gravity pulls on something.  If I were on the moon, I would weigh less than here on earth.  However, MASS is clearly positively correlated to weight, and that is where the common confusion comes from.  No matter where I stand, on earth, on the moon, or in zero-G, my mass remains the same.  A ship with greater mass takes more energy to move a larger object than a smaller, and it would take more energy to overcome inertia and redirect motion.  Thus, a smaller, lower mass ship would accelerate faster and be more maneuverable.

Incidently in a zero-G vacuum, there should be no speed limit, except those brought on by relativity as you approach the speed of light (of course in Star Wars, hyperspace allows for faster than light travel, so I won't address that aspect).  All ships could ultimately go equally fast, no matter how large they are or how powerful their engines.  What makes a difference is their acceleration.  Lower mass and more powerful engines would result in reaching your desired speed faster, but any ship that kept at it would not be hindered with a top speed.

timdiggerm said:

Other than the part where they don't just force Boba to give them genetic samples, that all made remarkable sense.

 I agree.  That is a fascinating expansion and explanation of all the various and potentially conflicting information.

Anchorhead said:

darth_ender said:

Forget that Luke and Leia are sibs.  Forget that Luke's dad wears black armor. 

Which, by the way, is very easy - considering the FACT that in 1978 none of the three main characters were related.  Not - hadn't been revealed, not - didn't know within the story, not - unreleased Original Vision.  In the simplest of terms - they were separate characters from different parts of the vast mystery that is the endless universe.  A farmer, a princess, and a military leader.

 Exactly, and from such a perspective, I enjoyed the book for what it was.

I literally just finished Splinter of the Mind's Eye.  It certainly is a slower story and felt like it could be a Star Trek episode.  But I really liked looking at it from a different point of view than most EU.  I see it as an alternate sequel (as it was originally penned to be, had ANH not been such a hit).  When read from the view of Star Wars in 1978, it makes for a very interesting interpretation.  Forget that Luke and Leia are sibs.  Forget that Luke's dad wears black armor.  Relish in the concept that artifacts contain mystical abilities, that we are still uncertain about what lies under Vader's armor.  Enjoy the idea of alternate minor characters to replace previously established characters (a different rogue, and two muscular, hairty brutes to replace the Millenium Falcon crew, as Harrison Ford had not signed on to do a sequel at that point).  I would love to see this book made into something like a TV movie, emphasizing what could have been rather than what ended up.  Of course it would be outside of the true canon on any level, but it would be fascinating (though I'm 154% Lucas would never allow such experimentation with his universe).

This goes to illustrate my earlier point: the EU can sometimes be an opportunity to accept and reject other stories to look at the Galaxy Far, Far Away in a different light.  Sometimes that rejection  may even include films from the original trilogy for a brief time.  I don't like most EU, but those things that I do like allow many enjoyable opportunities for me.

I forgot to add that even when I incorporate EU into my personal canon, I am selective.  For instance, as I'm currently reading the Jedi Academy Trilogy, I'm considering it real enough.  But when I'm done, I'll probably just disregard it once again.  My next book will be Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which I haven't read in quite some time.  This time I will likely be reading it as an alternative path for the Star Wars universe, like the potential low-budget sequel George asked Foster to create.  I will probably see through the lense of the only Star Wars tale besides ANH, just to get the feel of how it originally could have played out.  To clarify my first statement, I like to look at the EU somewhat similarly to the Star Trek EU.  Possible stories that don't necessarily exist in the real canon, but that you can incorporate as much as you like in your own mind.  I like that the EU gives me the freedom to expand upon the tales that I enjoy so much without the binding nature that the EU narrative seems to create for others.

I have to say that what I like best about the EU is what I feel at liberty to accept and what I feel at liberty to discard.  I think the idea that virtually any Star Wars product contributes to the continuity and cannot conflict with anything else is idiotic.  For instance, I remember playing Rebel Assault as a kid and enjoying the game, as the purpose was to make you feel in a sense as if you were Luke Skywalker, getting off of Tatooine and ultimately destroying the Death Star.  Come to find out years later that the nameless "Rookie One" is forever enshrined in Star Wars canon, with only the directly contradictory material being ignored just bugs the heck out of me.  Moreover, there are so many stupid stories out there that i can't help but cringe that they were ever approved (Ooh, I have a brilliant idea for a story! Let's have the Hutts build their version of the Death Star because Star Wars doesn't have enough superweapons.  And they could call in Darksaber because it's like a lightsaber in shape, and the superlaser is like the saber beam, but since the Hutts are bad, they'll replace the "light" in lightsaber with "dark"! Sheer brilliance!).  On the other hand, I love the Thrawn trilogy and have read it multiple times.  I'm finally giving the Jedi Academy trilogy a chance after avoiding it for over half my life, and though inferior and cheesey in a number of ways, I'm still getting enjoyment out of it.  So looking introspectively, I realized what I like about these stories.  Sometimes I'm in the mood for classic Star Wars, the OT, nothing else, and that to me is my universe.  At other times I want more of the same characters, and I start to believe in some of the EU, but at the same time, I ignore most of the crap out there (sorry, I know some people like it all, but to me I just can't take most of it).  And if I want something else, I believe in the PT and OT, and nothing else.  See, I just realized that I do that internally.  I have three parallel Star Wars universes: OT; OT/PT; OT and limited EU (notice, the EU and PT never jive in my book).  In the end, I find Star Wars can be deep and rich, or simple and pure, or just plain fun, and I enjoy it from each angle.

Actually, I meant the Vader yell.  I was trying to spoil your fun by stating phrases from the other films you haven't gotten to yet.  Just trying to give you a hard time.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Another happy landing!

I've been dying a little each day since you came back into my life.

I miss you...so much!