darth_ender

Still been busy.  I'll still try to get the vid up later today.

As for voting, don't forget everyone, YOUR VOTE IS DUE BY WEDNESDAY.  I won't have much time to be as actively involved (or overly involved, since I probably have about half the messages on this thread) after that point.  While several have come in, we still lack some participants, and I'd love everyone's input.

I'll try to comment on Coruscant and music cues ASAP.

fishmanlee said:

darth_ender said:

So I didn't add Madine to my video yet, and I decided I should, especially considering the conversation.  This means my video isn't quite done, and I've been rather busy all day.  I'll likely get it finished tomorrow.  Sorry for the hold up.

Did you see the video I just put up, with the short restored passage of music?

I did watch it, and I'm pondering on it.  I'll get back to you.  Thanks for putting that up, as I love to hear John Williams, and I love to hear his missing stuff.

So I didn't add Madine to my video yet, and I decided I should, especially considering the conversation.  This means my video isn't quite done, and I've been rather busy all day.  I'll likely get it finished tomorrow.  Sorry for the hold up.

Hey, Ron.  Lots of interesting stuff in your post there.  I don't know if you've had the chance to look at this thread, but there is good talk of cleaning up the deleted scenes and even adding color, starting about here.  The color thing is not a guarantee, so I'm not relying on that as much, though I still have my hopes.  But I hear what you're saying.

As far as the sandstorm, it's not just a bunch of stills; it's a full length scene.  If you are looking at the YouTube reconstructions, those came out before the BDs and are based on previously released images and a crappy clip.  The real thing is in pretty good shape, and if cleaned up and dubbed with good impersonations, it could still be usable.  Don't give up on it.

The two scenes you are talking about including sound interesting.  I've been trying to think of how to reasonably show Madine just before his ship blows up.  He'd have to receive some report of being targeted and knowing there was no escape from his underlings before he says, "May the Force be with us all," but I like the idea.  And I think you're right in the placement of the Jerjerrod scene, though I would suggest including where Vader says, "I will await his convenience," but redub him to say what someone else suggested, "The Emperor will see me...NOW."

I like the Beggar's Canyon footage.  Arizona is a good place for desert mattes, that's for sure :)  And the vids look like good reference material too.

Happy New Year!  It's still half an hour away for me, but I'm here at home while my wife has all the fun chaperoning a church youth dance.  Just FYI, I'm virtually done with another Battle of Endor rough edit.  Nearly all the surface battle has remained the same, and my focus has been on mostly the space battle and Jerjerrod.  I should have it uploaded some time tomorrow.

Another thought about the final battle: we never really see the Rebels losing that badly except when the DSII fires upon them.  It'd be good to see the capital ships taking more of a beating and getting destroyed as well; all we see once fleets are mixing it up is the loss of star destroyers.

What exactly does "For twooffour and the Germans" mean?  ALOL!

Most of the CGI stuff is beyond me, but it seems that it wouldn't have to be that complex.  Most of my suggestions would include minor changes to existing shots, like when you see the Rebel fleet, adding a few more Mon Cal cruisers in the distant background to imply a bigger battle.  The most complex shots would be new clips, like the B-wing shots I suggested, but even then I don't think it's necessary to render the entire fleet engaging in battle.  I guess the true most complex shot would involve the Executor and several Mon Cal cruisers, but I truly don't believe it's necessary to do the whole battle in CGI.

But I admit, I don't know what I'm talking about, and maybe I'm wrong.  Out of curiosity, would it be easier on our computer resources to use physical models and blue screens and composite them in?

EDIT: I'm not sure I understand what your post is telling me.  Perhaps you are referring to actually designing the intricacies of a ship.  That does certainly sound complex.  This stuff is all unknown to me, but I am confident we can figure something out.  I really think it'd be cool if someone actually built models and filmed them.

I like the design of the Phantoms when I'm playing in EU world, but when I'm considering designs for this movie, I personally oppose, mostly because I'm familiar with its EU properties (cloaking ability).

But now that I said that, I really do like the look, and as long as we left out the cloaking ability, making them just a TIE variant, I might not oppose a few cameos.

See, these disagreements are a good thing.  A "benevolent dictator" (a term coined by George Lucas) is an efficient governor.  But democracy is inefficient and at times contentious.  The other editors can shape the story exactly as they want.  But we have more resources at our disposal, and through our various arguments we can make a better story.  Remember, the reason the PT fell short is because no one had the guts to tell George, the Benevolent Dictator, that some of his ideas just plain sucked.  It's good to argue a bit :)

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I'm glad you like the B-wing scenes.  I agree about the length, and I do worry about them being too long, particularly the attack on the communications SD.  I'm sure it can be trimmed, but everything is so fast paced in that battle that we can't really focus for more than 15 seconds on a particular skirmish or it'd feel out of place.

Vladius said:

Are you placing the extra star destroyers on the Rebel side or the Imperial side? If they're with the rebels the battle just gets visually confusing for the audience.

Definitely with the Imperials as support craft, perhaps taking on the fighters more directly.  At least that's how I envision it.

EDIT: I fixed the above Y-wing pic.

Another comment I'd like to make has to do with the size of the Rebel flagship Home One.  The model has always been larger than other Mon Cal cruisers, and the canon defines standard cruisers as 1,200-1,500 meters (compared to a star destroyer being 1,600).  The EU canon size for Home One is supposedly the same as any other Mon Cal cruiser, but scaling the actual physical models implies a size of around 2,500 meters.  See this for scale:

This picture shows a comparison between the standard Mon Cal ship and a Star Destroyer:

I hope we use the large scale Home One.  I think it'd be cool to see several Mon Cal cruisers, including the larger Home One,  attacking the Executor.  It'd make sense thta it's the Rebels' best ship, and we never see it really engage in any action.  It'd be good to see them putting everything on the line to take down the Executor.

What did you guys think of my brief scene outlines involving B-wings?

This is the area where I really wanted to "big" up the movie.  I really wanted to make the space battle big and exciting.

Let me again plug for the Victory.  Like several EU items used by West End Games, it was created from rejected concept art, in this case concept art for Imperial Star Destroyer:

I don't know who the artist is, but this art precedes the films, and I think that justifies its presence.  See the Wookieepedia article and read Behind the Scenes.

The ships I suggest most strongly are this and the Y-wing.  The designers of the Clone Wars series tried hard to stick to a similar design to the original Y-wing, which is of course real OT.  It's a variant, and an interesting one to me.

Interdictors are an afterthought, and I certainly don't mind not including them at all.  I don't even mind not using the Y-wing, though I do like it.

As far as being conservative, what I mean is practical and realistic.  Creating ships is easier than creating characters flying out of Sarlaac's mouth.  Also, when talking conservative, I'm talking about being fairly true to the original story.  That doesn't mean I'm not open to changes to it, but that the original story was quite enjoyable for me personally (though I know many didn't like it).  Completely rewriting the movie is unrealistic to me, and it's an unnecessary undertaking considering the value of the original IMO.  Adding ships makes very little difference to the original story.  Moving Dagobah to earlier and saying Luke's been training a while is bigger, but it's still acceptable.  Making Endor a moon of Coruscant  (while not an idea I like) is a reasonable change.  But some discussions to me are just too unrealistic for our artists, our budget, etc.

As a final thought, I also don't like the overuse of CGI, but it does have its place.  Like I said, it's easier to create ships than people.  But who even says it has to be CGI?  If you look at my first post, I mentioned model building.  I wouldn't mind constructing a Victory star destroyer model, filming it, and compositing it into shots.

Let me show a visual comparison between the two:

They're not too dissimilar.  But the Victory is only a little over half the size of the Imperial.

MrInsaneA said:

darth_ender said:

So I'm hoping to hear more about Victory star destroyers.  A couple of people told me why they don't support it, but have I changed anyone's mind, or is anyone reconsidering?  Some votes were flat out yeses to the extra ships, and a couple specifically said no.  I just think that Victories would blend in perfectly, but would be nice support craft.

Also, I was watching the Clone Wars today, and again saw the BTL-B Y-wings, the heavily armored sort.  I think they were a really cool idea and would be a nice additional starfighter.  Several like the idea of Y-wings bombing the Executor, so if that idea passes, perhaps the this Y-wing could do the bombing run, while the other Y-wings serve more in the starfighter role (as they both have been sort of differentiated in this regard anyway in the EU)/

BTL-B

 

BTL-S3 or BTL-A4 (very similar to each other, former is pilot and gunner, latter is single pilot, shown in the films)

EDIT: I'm also thinking it would be cool to add Interdictor cruisers, as they are specifically designed to prevent hyperspace escape, and it would be more logical to include them to prevent escape.  Thoughts anyone?

I know this is kind of a "prequel mentality" but I think the selection process should be this: we should include ships that look cool. Function doesn't really matter, as we're never going to see them prevent escape. But if they look cool, I'm all for having them.

I for one enjoy knowing the function, but I see what you're saying.  Most won't even know what anything is doing.  Frankly, I think Interdictors are cool too, and they look like small star destroyers.  The other ships I suggest I think look cool too.

So I'm hoping to hear more about Victory star destroyers.  A couple of people told me why they don't support it, but have I changed anyone's mind, or is anyone reconsidering?  Some votes were flat out yeses to the extra ships, and a couple specifically said no.  I just think that Victories would blend in perfectly, but would be nice support craft.

Also, I was watching the Clone Wars today, and again saw the BTL-B Y-wings, the heavily armored sort.  I think they were a really cool idea and would be a nice additional starfighter.  Several like the idea of Y-wings bombing the Executor, so if that idea passes, perhaps the this Y-wing could do the bombing run, while the other Y-wings serve more in the starfighter role (as they both have been sort of differentiated in this regard anyway in the EU)/

BTL-B

BTL-S3 or BTL-A4 (very similar to each other, former is pilot and gunner, latter is single pilot, shown in the films)

EDIT: I'm also thinking it would be cool to add Interdictor cruisers, as they are specifically designed to prevent hyperspace escape, and it would be more logical to include them to prevent escape.  Thoughts anyone?

EDIT: Fixed Y-wing pic.

I'm not trying to put down your ideas, but when we debate things, we point out the potential flaws or what we don't like.  It seems extremely out of character for the Rebels to fire upon an informant, even an untrustworthy bounty hunter, without justification.  Just suspect a trap is pretty low.  He'd need to fire first, or at least threaten to fire before they could do the same.  Like I said, it's probably the best fitting idea if we go with one of these.  Not trying to be critical.

Ronster said:

aalenfae said:

As much as I respect the originals, I really don't think it'd be a good idea to use Shaw. 

People always argue that Shaw IS Anakin Skywalker, but... frankly, the Prequels WERE made, and Hayden WAS cast as Anakin. Hayden is Anakin Skywalker, and for the sake of the Saga, it should be Anakin Skywalker who appears at the end.

Shaw played an important part as the man behind the mask - but his voice and appearance really shouldn't be the basis for the formation of the Anakin character - considering we only can go on what we have in the movies, which is only about a minute or so of an old, broken man's labored last words. 

I really don't see it as disrespect to "rob" Shaw of the last few seconds he appears as a ghost. And for the sake of the full-circle of the Saga, it probably should be Hayden.

BUT! It should NOT be the Hayden we see in the DVD and Blu-Ray. They should have made him look as old as he's supposed to be (What would it be? Like 50?).
So I'd suggest maybe taking Hayden's head from another of his movies where his hairstyle isn't so rouge-like, and maybe grey him up a little bit digitally. If you really want to go the extra mile, add in some wrinkles and you're set.  

 

 

 

And concerning a scene about the stolen plans...
I really like the idea of showing it, but I'm just a little afraid of how it affects the style in relation to other Star Wars movies. This is the kind of scene you'd see in a cold opening, which is a lot more "modern" than the overall retro style of the Star Wars movies.
Is there a way to incorporate this idea more into the flow of the script?  

I like your Mock-up but I think either have the Original Ghost or no Ghost.

Your right Alanfae that's what I am scared of too because I don't want to ruin it and spoil things, like you say more modern may not fit. But the plan is make it ambigous.

My Idea Was that structurly it would go>>>>

New Opening, Plans Stolen we do not see DSII only Endor

Dagobah Yoda Dies luke leaves after he and Obi-wan talk

Vader goes DSII

The Exchange (Plans delivered)

Luke Arrives Tattoine (Beggars Canyon?)

Vader Contacts Luke Meditation chamber (deleted Scene)

Tattoine sequence with Droids / Jabbas Palce /Sail Barge

Luke Falcon Part Ways

Emporer arrives at DSII

Millennium falcon meets the fleet.

And then it's all back on track more or less.

I also thought about adding modified flash backs showing Luke's mind which is what would trigger Vader to contact him. So that he would Imagine Vader Pursuing Him Down the Death star trench whist flying through Beggars Canyon >> Obviously Vader contacts him after this.

When Luke looks at his Hand in the X-wing after Tattooine I also thought about seeing it being chopped off again with the Audio of Lukes "Nooooo!" with echo effect and Vader reaching out to him " I'll Never Join you!" Echoing over the image of Vader reaching out to him. we then cut back to the x-wing and see Luke and the new Line "I need to be alone for a while...."

That is my complete take for the first half... I doubt the Flashbacks would work as star wars does not do flashbacks really. But as it is the concluding part It would help bring some of these momments back to show their history haunting him. Ben has also told Luke by this point that Darth Vader is his father so lukes mind is plagued by the past or atleast that was my thinking.

Why do the Rebels fire on Bossk?  That seems pretty treacherous for the good guys.

I'm concerned as well about style matching.  I think the points about it not fitting well with the rest of the film are valid, though the ideas are quite interesting.  I'm still debating this internally, but I still may be leaning towards my naturally conservative side.  But the votes are still open, and we don't know how it will turn out.  I just am concerned it will be too different from the rest of the film, my big problem with other parts of the SE.

EDIT: Of all the versions of the DSII info exchange, this thing with Bossk does feel closest to the original film, though the Bothan infiltrator scenario was most interesting.

aalenfae said:

As much as I respect the originals, I really don't think it'd be a good idea to use Shaw. 

People always argue that Shaw IS Anakin Skywalker, but... frankly, the Prequels WERE made, and Hayden WAS cast as Anakin. Hayden is Anakin Skywalker, and for the sake of the Saga, it should be Anakin Skywalker who appears at the end.

Shaw played an important part as the man behind the mask - but his voice and appearance really shouldn't be the basis for the formation of the Anakin character - considering we only can go on what we have in the movies, which is only about a minute or so of an old, broken man's labored last words. 

I really don't see it as disrespect to "rob" Shaw of the last few seconds he appears as a ghost. And for the sake of the full-circle of the Saga, it probably should be Hayden.

BUT! It should NOT be the Hayden we see in the DVD and Blu-Ray. They should have made him look as old as he's supposed to be (What would it be? Like 50?).
So I'd suggest maybe taking Hayden's head from another of his movies where his hairstyle isn't so rouge-like, and maybe grey him up a little bit digitally. If you really want to go the extra mile, add in some wrinkles and you're set.  

 

 

 

And concerning a scene about the stolen plans...
I really like the idea of showing it, but I'm just a little afraid of how it affects the style in relation to other Star Wars movies. This is the kind of scene you'd see in a cold opening, which is a lot more "modern" than the overall retro style of the Star Wars movies.
Is there a way to incorporate this idea more into the flow of the script?  

I'm not a PT hater like many.  I appreciate them for what they are: inferior Star Wars stories of lesser canon in my mind, but still enjoyable and canon to me.  I hear what you're going for.  My reason for Shaw is two-fold: 1) Shaw is older, and older actors are often used to play the same character instead of altering the younger actor via CGI or makeup.  On top of that, Shaw is the actor Luke saw under the mask (and thus would recognize as a ghost), and it was at this older age when Anakin was redeemed and died; after all, it's the old Kenobi Force ghost we see.  And 2), it does seem more respectful to me to include Shaw.

That said, respect isn't that big a deal anymore to me.  Several actors played in scenes and never actually made it on screen because their parts were cut.  And I see your point about including Christiansen.  As long as he were "old-ified," I'd consider that a respectable compromise, especially since you'd be the one doing the effect.

I'm liking it.  I'd like it better if it were Sebastian Shaw, but I'm liking it, especially the way you have events play out.  I'm glad you and I enjoy the same idea ;)  Looking forward to a video.  Maybe it will help everyone come to love this idea.

Frink, you're entitled to a vote since you did comment once (albeit, you were poking fun at how I started the thread).  I will mark you down for saving Lando, but if you want to do more, please feel free.

Essentially what I'm thinking ;)  Thanks for the help.

Wow, this whole voting thing is a lot of work.  I'm hoping someone will soon be ready to step up as the spearhead for this project, because I already am neglecting important things for this project, and school is starting on Jan 9 for me.  Anyone willing to sort of be the go-to person, please let me know.  I will probably provide a suggested successor of sorts (making this sound like a dictatorship).  You of course can all approve or disapprove, but I think it should be someone fair-minded and with the time and ambition to keep track of things.  I can still help and update the first post, but really this is already getting to be a bit much.

With that, I realized there was an error in the voting numbering.  For some reason when I pasted the items from Word, item 2 under Coruscant didn't receive a number, and I think a couple of you skipped it when voting.  If you want your voice heard on whether Endor should be a moon of Coruscant and don't think you voted on it, please let me know.

This is simply a quickly completed brief script for two scenes involving B-wing action and the Lost Rebel footage.  I rely more heavily on the younger female pilot because she's not annoying and we actually have a colored scene for reference if someone is able to color the other clips.  We can remove the older woman's only shot if we can't color it.  All voices would of course be redubbed:

Attack on the Communications Star Destroyer Scene:

Mon Cal Pilot: Commencing our attack run on the main communications vessel.  Cover us, Gray 6 and 7.

Female Pilot 1: Got it.

Two B-wings approach a distant star destroyer from the front.

Sullustan Pilot: We’ll target the shield generators.  You hit the tower.

They near the Star Destroyer with a large communications tower on the bridge.  The B-wings unload a barrage on the shield domes and peel off to the left and right.

Female Pilot 1: We’re starting our attack run on the main power tree (the pilot’s targeting computer extends).

Two A-wings approach the destroyer, surrounded by laser fire. 

Female Pilot 2: I’m hit!

One A-wing explodes.  The other continues its approach.

Female Pilot 1: I’m in range.

The lone A-wing launches a barrage of concussion missiles that strike the large tower and leave it in flames while the A-wing veers off right.

B-Wings Destroy a Star Destroyer Scene:

A Mon Calamari cruiser is engaged in broadsides with a star destroyer.  The cruiser is clearly receiving the worst of it, with several sections bursting in small explosions.  But the destroyer is also taking quite a pounding with several small fires on the hull surface.

Mon Cal Pilot: The Endurance is in trouble.  We’re starting our run on that destroyer.

Sullustan Pilot: Right with you.

Three B-wings begin a spinning approach towards the destroyer from the starboard side, unleashing a hail of laser fire and torpedoes, focused on the midsection of the hull.  Their concentrated blasts punch a gaping, flaming hole into the destroyer which quickly spreads.

Mon Cal Pilot: Get out of there, Endurance!

The Mon Cal cruiser puts some distance between itself and the burning destroyer.  Just after the three fighters cross over the enemy vessel in perfect formation, the star destroyer explodes in a spectacular display.

Abrams is a good director.  Dark is good thing too.

Fettclone1 said:

noob 2 cents here:

I'm very much behind the idea of having Dagobah early in the movie with the premise of Luke continuing his training. Spence did this over at FanEdit and I think it works well. 

Elsewhere, I like to think of myself as a bit of an authority on Boba Fett *cough* and my position is Semi-Fett; that is, he would be ok in Jabba's Palace but he should not be on the sail barge. The character, aside from the added SE crap, was very much like his ESB persona in the palace. After that he becomes stupid.

It also makes sense for him to be alongside Jabba for potential work but he shouldn't involve himself that much (especially if you consider what happened to Jango).

What I'm really, firmly against is having Fett involved in some subplot that gets shoehorned in. That's just wrong on a few levels.

I appreciate your 2 cents.  I like Dagobah early on too :)

Also, as for Fett, how do we explain his disappearance between palace and barge?  It just feels like a loose thread.  The Fett problem is one of the most difficult to address in my opinion: how do we keep him cool and give him a respectable departure from the film?

TheoOdo said:

I've been the resident advocate of this idea for a long time, so at the risk of sounding repetitive, I'd like to propose something... I always felt that the rehashing of the Death Star was weak, so to make the ending more climactic, I'd like to propose that the assault on the Death Star II be replaced with an assault on the Imperial Capital.

Why? The Rebels have been working on the outer reaches of the galaxy up to the final movie. By forcing them to take on the center of Imperial activity, it adds tension and makes the conclusion more dramatic. Endor is yet another backwater, but by sending them to the Imperial Capital we signal that this truly is the last, decisive battle.

By ridding it of the DSII, we also make it clear that the threat is very different than the threat in the first movie. Here the risk is that the Rebellion has been drawn into the belly of the beast to be destroyed. I know there's already been talk of adding Coruscant to the finale, but I think that if that's going to happen, it might as well be used as a means to getting rid of a rehashed plot element.

How? Well, there are ways:

1. At the opening of the movie, replace the entire matte of Endor and the DSII with a matte of the Imperial Capital, looking like a degraded Coruscant.

2. New establishing shots would have to be made of the shuttle's arrival at the Imperial Palace.

3. The interior of the DSII would now be taken as the interior of the Imperial Palace.

4. The Emperor's throne room would need new mattes for all the windows, showing the dingy city environment outside.

5. New establishing shots would have to be created for the Palace.

6. From the surface of Endor (now a moon of the Capital) we should be able to see the Imperial Capital.

7. Luke's confrontation with Vader in the Endor Imperial base could now be set in a building in the Imperial Capital - perhaps a massive and foreboding detention center. New establishing shot would be needed along with new scenery outside the corridor's windows.

8. A new hologram would have to be made for the briefing scene in which Ackbar explains the nature of the attack - the whole Imperial planet is surrounded by an energy shield generated from the moon of Endor. In order to attack the Palace, they must shut down the generator, send a team to fly into a service shaft which travels underneath the Palace and have them destroy the Palace's energy reactor, which cause a chain reaction destroying the entire palace. The only reason this attack can proceed is that the Imperial fleet is "spread thin throughout the galaxy in a vain attempt to engage" the Rebels. This, of course, is all a trap to bring the Rebels onto the Empire's home turf.

9. The Falcon's attack on the DSII's surface would have to be altered so that it appears to be flying along the surface of a city before ducking into the service shaft.

10. The big dramatic conclusion! The Imperial Palace would have to explode in dazzling fashion just as the Falcon escapes the blast. This would probably require a whole new CG model, like the establishing shots mentioned above.

Well, that's my offering. Take it or leave it, I just felt I had to say it.

 

I'm glad you took the time to say it, as I've been hoping for a more cohesive Coruscant storyline to justify the argument to include it.  I honestly still don't agree, but I like your concept and it's clearly been well thought out.

Though there are other reasons, my biggest reason for not using this idea is that it in many ways reduces the tension.  We're not talking about an impending threat that must be eliminated while weak.  We're talking about what could be simply a massive attack, timed whenever it becomes convenient.  To me, that just dramatically reduces the looming danger the Rebellion is in, having to strike during their darkest hour.  And on top of that, destroying the Imperial Palace is not nearly as climactic as destroying the Death Star.

But don't let me discourage you.  This is a place for creative discussion, and I'm sure there are others that like your perspective.  I hope you'll stick around and continue to fight for your ideas :)

Sorry for putting in so many comments here but I've had a ton of ideas over the past couple of days.  Some line about scrambling more fighters should be included early in the battle.  If you think about it, there aren't that many fighters involved on the initial approach to the DSII, some may crash into the shield, and they are outnumbered by the TIEs, but we see several fighters still around throughout the battle.  And with the number of capital ships, you'd think they'd be holding more in reserves.  It's just a thought, but I think it should be implied that more are ready to be launched.  This could also justify inclusion of some of the older ships people talked about in the other thread, like a lone Naboo fighter or the heavily armored Clone Wars Y-wings.