http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/How-would-a-Star-Wars-reboot-do/topic/14551/page/3/
Intentional:
Bingowings and greenpenguino
Unintentional:
Titus and generalfrievous
I don't know how this thread hasn't ended up in Frink's Classic LOL thread yet. You guys are great!
I hear you, and I even can appreciate it as an effort to show a different cultural view. But too often it was a central plot device, and there were many allusions. I know, most people these days don't care. I know, sex is how we all got here, and how my three children got here for that matter. But when it becomes too central to the plot, shows too much flesh, and occupies too much of the humor, it begins to detract from the enjoyment for me. Even if periodic implications were all there were, I wouldn't mind so much, but it just disappointed me to see such a focus on the topic.
Sincerely,
Ye Olde Fashioned but Proud OT.com Prude
I read that trilogy a bit over a year ago. I agree, some parts were fun and interesting, some plain dumb. This is my review I gave in November in the What do you LIKE about the EU? thread:
darth_ender said:
You know, I remember when I first heard of the the Jedi Academy Trilogy...I couldn't have been more than 11 years old, and my friend had read all three. He described the book to me, particularly the Sun Crusher, and Exar Kun/Luke's disembodiment. I remember thinking the ideas were rather stupid. I still think they are pretty dumb, but I've learned to enjoy the EU better, as I've said many times on her before, by reading the books somewhat in isolation instead of part of a large continuity. I didn't like a dinky little ship being more powerful than the Death Star before, but when I finally read the trilogy mere months ago, I didn't mind it as much because I sort of let go of the idea that this had to exist in my personal Star Wars universe. I just let it be, and decided that I could like the Sun Crusher as its own plot device.
Since I'd rather discuss the Thrawn Trilogy, but never gave much of an opinion on the Jedi Academy trilogy before, I will mention my likes and dislikes, and hopefully I can steer back towards the previous conversation.
Things I liked:
The concept of Luke re-establishing the Jedi Order with an Academy
The general idea of Exar Kun, though I feel he was poorly executed
The corruption of a student, though again the execution wasn't fantastic, and his repentance was pretty lame...but I'll save this for the second part of this list
A rogue admiral with her fleet
Kessell
Kinda liked the Death Star prototype, though another Death Star is cliched
Grew to like the Sun CrusherThings I did not like:
The Blobstacle Course--absolutely worst idea
Admiral Daala's ongoing charisma in spite of her repeated failure[EDIT: what I mean is, why on earth would her stupid crew continue to follow her as she repeatedly killed off thousands of the men beneath her with her incompetence--she never does ANYTHING to prove herself worthwhile - 9/5/12]
Exar Kun's defeat
Another fallen Jedi who, in spite of repeated warning that "once you start down the dark path..." manages to return to the light, as well as the self-inflicted tragedy surrounding this character
The Maw administrative staff and the ridiculous 'humor' surrounding their escapades
The nature of glitterstim spice
The description of Sabaac, which I used to think was a game that required some level of skill
What's funny is while I was looking for my review, the comment just before mine was this:
DuracellEnergizer said:
I kinda like the Jedi Academy Trilogy; it's how I'd imagine those old pulp magazines to be - not particularily well-written, but entertaining nonetheless.
DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!
;)
You guys know that HISHE did two videos on this movie already? I haven't actually watched it because I went to their site just to see if they'd already done it, but I didn't have sound at the time. It took them over a year to do TDK, I think, so this was much quicker.
Finished the Firefly series and watched Serenity (3rd time for the latter, but first time for the former). It was an interesting experience. I'm just repeating myself, but the series had a lot going for it, if the darn plot weren't nearly always centered on glorified prostitution and other sexual plot points. That was truly disappointing to me, but many other aspects were quite interesting, including the variety of characters. My understanding is that the comics address the end of the Blue Hand dudes and the entrance of the Operative, but I wish the Blue Hands were addressed on screen. Jubal Early was a very funny bad guy.
As for the movie, I loved it even more this time, though I'd always enjoyed it before. It's not overly sexual, addresses many of the loose ends of the show, feels like a natural extension to the series (though I again emphasize that it stood well for someone who'd never seen the show), and was just plain exciting and well paced. I really enjoyed it.
Watched Beyond with John Voigt. An interesting movie about a guy who hunts down those who kidnap children. Has a supernatural twist. Not the greatest in the world, but I liked it more than I'd expect of a movie of this type.
Also saw Taken with Liam Neeson. Similar vein as Beyond, I'm sure you all know, as Liam Neeson's teen daughter gets kidnapped and sold into sex slavery. Dealt with the topic well and largely unoffensively (though I could have used less skin at a couple of points), and it was pretty cool to see Qui-Gon Jinn brilliantly infiltrate and so effectively disrupt this evil trade that truly exists. I felt sorrow for none of his victims except a certain woman with a bullet in her arm...maybe that one was too far. Still, excellent film.
Hey, that looks pretty good. Too bad that project died. Your involvement was appreciated. :)
Interesting thoughts. I just came up with some of my own. They are very rough and don't take pacing or anything like that into account. I just wrote what came to me. Not sure it could ever work.
Make sure Emperor’s face is never damaged.
A few changes would need to be made to the OT to smooth out the wrinkles, as I've mentioned before, specifically removal of the line that Vader was Obi-Wan's pupil and anything related, as well as significant and lengthy flashback during ROTJ to fill in how Obi-Wan fought him, etc.
I really am not saying this is a solution. These are just ideas that perhaps can be fleshed out.
Hey, I've been doing a lot of speculating on ideas without thinking them through lately. So it's very likely that it's not possible. However, I've got my mind churning about a completely different structure to the film. I'll let you know if I get it worked out.
I'm just thinking, and it might result in a very short movie if put this way, but...what if the Battle over Coruscant were placed closer to the end of ROTS instead of at the beginning? What if the film could be edited in such a way that Anakin's tipping point was when he kills Dooku instead of his love for Padme? It would likely take some amazing fixing up of the deleted scenes, but I can't help but wonder if it's possible.
I don't comment on this thread as much because I'm not a technologically advanced guy. I have no BD player and only recently got an HD TV. I was content with the GOUT until I came to this site and realized its shortcomings. But knowing what I know now, and seeing what Harmy has done, I will add my name to the list of the grateful who are so happy to see the original movies in such amazing quality. Thanks Harmy. You're awesome!
Well, I've always got fun ideas for these movies, but I don't have any capacity to fix them myself. I hope someone will take some of these ideas and run with them, perhaps a full six-film approach to their edits, complete with preserved secrets and maybe even those flashbacks. Who knows?
Thinking back to preserving the secret, if it could be shown that Anakin is still alive (crawling up the lava river bank), and that the Emperor sends Lord Vader to Mustafar to "take care" of Anakin (line lifted from Sidious talking to Neimoidians with slight alteration, if possible), then maybe there'd be some solution. We would wonder who Lord Vader is and what Sidious means by this. We'd think Vader would be killing Anakin, but in the end we'd learn that really Sidious was providing a suit for him. I dunno, that sounds kind hokey.
Also, I'm agreeing very much with removing the name Skywalker, but also doing the Q2 thing where Anakin seems dead and we never see him become Vader (except maybe through later flashbacks). Of course, new problems arise, such as the relationship with the Lars family and the surprisingly good ending for ROTS looking at the Tatooine sunset (that would probably have to be included in a flashback as well). I don't know. It's a fun problem to try to reason out. Maybe in the end we'd have to settle for exactly as Q2 gave it to as and as timdiggerm explained: Kebobi is manipulative, but we don't know the extent until ESB.
Gosh, I'm just thinking in realtime here. Maybe a pentalogy is the way to go to preserve the secret. 1-2, 4-5, and a 3/6 hybrid with lots of flashbacks. Oh, what fun!
Fantastic news. Thanks so much!
I don't disagree with you at all. I completely understand your rant. However, I just find it a worthy endeavor to try to make the trilogies interchangeable. Honestly, I'd enjoy watching the films pretending that I'd never seen the OT, and being surprised. But I won't argue with you. Your solution is simple and effective. Not a bad thought.
In order to address part of your concerns (assuming we know Anakin is Luke's daddy, but not sure that he's Vader), what do you think of flashbacks? Many people aren't interested, as it isn't Star Warsy in nature. Perhaps there'd be a way to include it in ROTJ without being too distracting. Likely during Ben's chat with Luke, some flashbacks could be squeezed in there to show Anakin with his final limb pulling himself up the ashen hill. Maybe just before Luke removes Vader's mask, we see a flashback of Vader getting "put together" and his mask placed on his face...just thoughts. What do you think?
Sometimes we all make me laugh because we argue about the correctness of such nerdy stuff. Yes, I'm party to this silliness. But I did want to chime in. I agree, I very much prefer the pre-PT explanation (from EU sources) that Jedi masters had advanced so far in the Force that they no longer needed lightsabers. Moreover, if lightsabers had to be used in the PT by masters, they didn't have to be overused by them as they currently are. And lightsabers, which seemed so precious in the OT, are like cheap, replaceable water pistols in the PT. But I think Bizarro makes a good case that the OT does not actually preclude Jedi masters using lightsabers. It's pretty clear that Yoda and the Emperor do not consider lightsaber usage as beneath the Jedi. The Jedi masters obviously expected the knights to use such methods as part of their growth. When Yoda told Luke that he must face Vader again, I don't think he expected him to defeat him without one. I believe that Luke's test at the cave was a message about giving in to anger, listening to fear, and relying on violence to solve all problems. It did not mean that he would never have to resort to violence. Bizarro said it right: there is more to being a Jedi than fighting, lightsabers, and heroics...but that does not leave those things completely out of the picture.
Yeah, if that's what you're going for, that's fine. And I can see the interest of that point of view. On the other hand, I sort of like the idea that the audience believes Ben is perfect, until all of the sudden Luke's and our worlds collapse with the revelation of all the lies at once. But I think your interpretation may be the only possible way to see it, which isn't bad. Still hoping for some alternate ideas, though :)
You'll be missed Mr. 005. Hopefully that better place isn't a morgue ;)
So after watching (actually skimming, since I'm too busy to really enjoy a full trilogy at the present) Q2's edits, I'm really impressed with how he integrated the two trilogies. He did a very good job of having Anakin die, so we ultimately believe that Vader is the Emperor's next henchman if we were watching the trilogies in numerical order.
However, one thought (which I mentioned elsewhere) still occurs to me: Ben tells Luke, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."
The only pupil we ever see prior to Ben's isolation is Anakin. Any first time watcher of the trilogies, if we've attempted to integrate them as Q2 has, would still be confused. "Well, I saw Anakin die, but Obi-Wan says his apprentice became Vader and killed Anakin." We already see Obi-Wan is a liar of some sort, and part of the surprise is still spoiled or at least in the back of the viewer's mind.
I've got an idea how to fix it: remove a couple of the lines from ANH! But then that doesn't really answer how Anakin died. Ben's still a liar, since we know that he killed Anakin. Plus we lose the impact and personal level of antagonism between Luke and Vader. And furthermore, it creates a bit of an inconsistency with ESB: "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father." "He told me enough. He told me you killed him." And also there would be this little inconsistency with ROTJ where Luke says, "Obi-Wan. Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father," which is almost word-for-word what Ben told Luke in ANH. So I'm not sure how to rectify that problem while preserving as much of the OT as possible. Any other solutions to this problem?
It would be nice if we could see some of the Emperor's other agents somehow involved in the story, and we could speculate which of them was Vader. That way, we'd at least have some room for speculation on who became Vader. Perhaps we could have some inference that one of them was involved in finding Anakin. I dunno, as I think about it, that doesn't work either. Just typing as I think.
A couple of other thoughts have come to me recently, mostly in discussion with others:
Obi-Wan or Ben. Ben says, "I haven't gone by the name of Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born," to Luke. But even at the end of ROTS he's still going by Obi-Wan. Not a huge problem, and perhaps this is strictly true, since maybe he changed his name immediately when Luke was born. But still, the implication is that he changed it significantly before that. I don't know how many times Obi-Wan is actually said during ROTS, but if it's only a few, is it possible to dub his name there? Or perhaps would that just be a line better removed from ANH?
Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed Ben. There are two ways I can think of fixing this: remove that little line from ESB, which shouldn't be too big a deal: "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master." I think there's even enough of a pause for it to be a believable end of the sentence. The other is something that Pagz did at FE.org. I know his edit was seen as too rough, and some of his ideas weren't well-received, but he really had many interesting ideas, including how to handle this problem. In his opening crawl he has this:
Jedi Knight Qui-Gon Jinn, overseeing young Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi's trials of knighthood, has been dispatched to liberate Alderaan from the tyranny of the Federation and to restore freedom to the peaceful system....
He turns Naboo into Alderaan, so don't let that distract you. But he has Qui-Gon not serve as Obi-Wan's master, but rather as his preceptor or final trainer. I think that serves as a reasonable explanation.
To read more about his edit, go here:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-The-Vader-Confidential-Edits-Episode-I-Completed-and-Available/topic/12302/
It probably would have helped had I watched it before seeing Ep III. And I'm sure there is good stuff to it as well. I just hope the newer series has a more grounded nature, and I really do like my idea of using the CGI series to create a new Ep II. I think it could be done, once the series is over. How does the new series match up with your list there? Are the good qualities of the cartoon still present in the CGI?
Maybe you're right, Bingo. If there's something we don't see enough of in modern media, it's sex. Every TV program is so cliched, except those that show a little somethin'-somethin'. [/end sarcasm; cue winking smiley]
;)
In all seriousness, many a program has gotten along fine without it, and as this is a site with lots of fanediting going on, there are several cases where I've considered, "Hmm, if I simply excised that scene, no one would even notice." But the plot and humor keep me coming back to these episodes, and I've got two to go. Then the movie (which I don't think was nearly as sexual). And I think I'll try to read the interquel comics while I'm at it.
Bingowings said:
I saw the film first and it worked perfectly, the film was more lachrymatory re-watching it after the show.
Not just because I knew the character better but also because I wanted to know them more and I knew I would not be allowed to. Stupid Fox was stupid.
I felt the same re-watching the sole season of Caprica again recently.
I have a feeling I'll not enjoy many of the plot points and character development that was already settled before upon my next viewing. However, I think I'll still enjoy it. But ultimately I clicked "reply with quote" so I could highlight your greatest truth. How could they cancel such an interesting show? Were the ratings really that bad? The show has so much potential. I really wanted to see more of the guys with the blue gloves, but I have a feeling there will never be much more development of those two. Still have four more episodes to go, so I guess we'll see.
pat man said:
Hell there
It's August in Arizona, so some people would say that, yes, it is Hell here. ;)
Is this the final season, or will the continue making them till the banthas come home?
I know the Clone Wars cartoon is considered better than the CGI show, but is it really more enjoyable (I've only seen bits and pieces of the cartoon as well)? With such short episodes, there is hardly room for character development. And I'm not a style of Samurai Jack animation. Furthermore, the plots seem like the ridiculous stuff that sells these days, like the good guy has an overpowering weapon and dominates the battlefield, then the bad guys wait until the right moment when they've lost more men than they should have, but just to make their entrance dramatic, they unleash their even more amazing weapon...I dunno, what I saw was too weird for me. Underwater lightsabers and blasters...just weird stuff. Anyway, it seems that the CGI series has more opportunities going for it.
walking_carpet said:
darth_ender said:
Gosh, the Prowse/Lucas feud makes me really feel bad. Usually I'm one to try to tone down the Lucas criticism, but this is really one case where I don't come to his defense. Everything I've read makes me feel that Prowse was mistreated, whether intentionally or not. Lucas was in the wrong.
probably, but i also get the impression that Prowse is a little full of himself. His opinion on why JEJ was used for the voice is far-fetched to say the least.
was there any truth to the rumor that LFL actually approached prowse for Epsiode III but things fell apart?
I won't argue with you there...for a couple of reasons actually. One, you're probably right, he likely is a bit full of himself...he is an actor after all, and more are than are not. Two, I don't know much about the topic, having just read portions. However, what I have read still makes me feel sorry for him. His voice clearly was not the one for Vader, unless some serious digital alteration were done. JEJ was the man for the job, no doubt about it. However, not being told so many things...being left in the dark...that would hurt my feelings. And while JEJ gets credit for making Vader the menace that he is, Prowse does have a right to feel slighted, as he was the imposing figure in the suit. Sure, he gets his name in the credits when Jones did not, but at the end of the day, people remember the voice and the suit, not the man under the suit.