darth_ender

     "Red Five to Blue Leader," he reported. "Aborting run under heavy fire.

TIE fighters dropped on us out of nowhere. I can't-wait-"

     Astern, a silent, remorseless enemy was touching a deadly  button  once

more. The first bolts struck just as Pops had risen high enough to  commence

evasive action. But he had pulled clear a few seconds too late.

     One energy beam seared his port engine, igniting gas within. The engine

blew apart, taking controls and stabilizing  elements  with  it.  Unable  to

compensate, the out-of-control Y- wing began a long, graceful plunge  toward

the station surface.

     "Are you all right,  Red  Five?"  a  troubled  voice  called  over  the

intership system.

     "Lost Tiree... lost Dutch," Pops explained slowly, tiredly. "They  drop

in behind you, and you can't maneuver in the trench. Sorry... it's your baby

now. So long, Dave-"

     It was the last message of many from a veteran.

     Blue Leader forced a crispness he didn't feel  into  his  voice  as  he

tried to shunt aside the death of his old friend. "Blue boys, this  is  Blue

Leader. Rendezvous at mark six point one. All wings report in."

     "Blue Leader, this is Blue Ten. I copy."

     "Blue Two here," Wedge acknowledged. "Coming toward you, Blue Leader."

     Luke was also waiting his turn to report when something beeped  on  his

control board. A glance backward confirmed  the  electronic  warning  as  he

spotted an Imperial fighter slipping in behind him.

     "This is Blue Five," he declared, his ship wobbling as he tried to lose

the TIE fighter. "I have a problem here. Be right with you."

     He sent his ship into a steep dive toward the metal surface,  then  cut

sharply up to avoid a burst  of  defensive  fire  from  emplacements  below.

Neither maneuver shook his pursuit.

     "I see you, Luke," came a reassuring call from Biggs. "Stay with it."

     Luke looked above, below, and to the sides, but there was  no  sign  of

his friend. Meanwhile, energy bolts from his trailing assailant were passing

uncomfortably close.

     "Blast it, Biggs, where are you?"

     Something appeared, not to the sides or behind, but almost directly  in

front of him. It was bright and moving incredibly  fast,  and  then  it  was

firing just above him. Taken completely by surprise,  the  Imperial  fighter

came apart just as its pilot realized what had happened.

     Luke turned for the rendezvous mark as Biggs shot past overhead.  "Good

move, Biggs. Fooled me, too."

     "I'm just getting started," his friend announced as he twisted his ship

violently to avoid the fire from  below.  He  hove  into  view  over  Luke's

shoulder and executed a victory roll. "Just point me at the target."

     Back alongside Yavin's indifferent bulk, Dodonna  finished  an  intense

discussion with several  of  his  principal  advisors,  then  moved  to  the

long-range transmitter.

     "Blue Leader, this is Base One. Double-check your own attack  prior  to

commencement. Have your wingmen hold back and cover for you. Keep half  your

group out of range to make the next run."

     "Copy, Base One," the response came. "Blue Ten, Blue Twelve, join  with

me."

     Two ships leveled off to flank  the  squadron  commander.  Blue  Leader

checked them out. Satisfied that  they  were  positioned  properly  for  the

attack run, he set the group to follow in case they should fail.

     "Blue Five, this is Blue Leader, Luke, take Blue  Two  and  Three  with

you. Hold up here out of their fire and wait for my signal to start your own

run."

     "Copy, Blue Leader,"  Luke  acknowledged,  trying  to  slow  his  heart

slightly. "May the force be with you. Biggs,  Wedge,  let's  close  it  up."

Together, the three fighters  assumed  a  tight  formation  high  above  the

firefight still raging  between  other  rebel  craft  of  Green  and  Yellow

squadrons and the imperial gunners below.

     The horizon flip-flopped ahead of  Blue  Leader  as  he  commenced  his

approach to the station surface. "Blue Ten, Blue Twelve, stay back until  we

spot those fighters, then cover me."

     All three X-wings reached the surface, leveled off, then arced into the

trench. His wingmen dropped farther and farther behind until Blue Leader was

seemingly alone in the vast gray chasm.

     No defensive fire greeted him as he raced toward the distant target. He

found himself looking around nervously, checking  and  rechecking  the  same

instruments.

     "This doesn't look right," he found himself muttering.

     Blue Ten sounded equally concerned. "You should be able to pick up  the

target by now."

     "I  know.  The  disruption  down  here  is  unbelievable.  I  think  my

instruments are off. Is this the right trench?"

     Suddenly, intense streaks of light began  to  shoot  close  by  as  the

trench defenses opened up. Near misses shook the attackers. At the  far  end

of the trench a huge tower dominated  the  metal  ridge,  vomiting  enormous

amounts of energy at the nearing ships.

     "It's not going to be easy with  that  tower  up  there,"  Blue  Leader

declared grimly. "Stand by to close up a little when I tell you."

     Abruptly the energy bolts ceased and all was silent  and  dark  in  the

trench once again. "This is it," Blue Leader announced, trying to locate the

attack from above that had to be coming. "Keep  your  eyes  open  for  those

fighters."

     "All short-  and  long-range  scopes  are  blank,"  Blue  Ten  reported

tensely. "Too much interference here. Blue Five, can you see them from where

you are?"

     Luke's attention was riveted to the surface of the  station.  "No  sign

of-Wait!" Three rapidly moving points of light caught his eye.  "There  they

are. Coming in point three five."

     Blue Ten turned and looked in the indicated direction. Sun bounced  off

stabilizing fins as the TIE fighters looped downward. "I see them."

     "It's the right trench,  all  right,"  Blue  Leader  exclaimed  as  his

tracking scope suddenly began a steady beeping. He  adjusted  his  targeting

instrumentation, pulling his visor down over his eyes. "I'm almost in range.

Targets ready... coming up. Just hold them off me for a few seconds-keep 'em

busy."

     But Darth Vader was already setting his own fire control as he  dropped

like a stone toward the trench. "Close up  the  formation.  I'll  take  them

myself."

     Blue Twelve went first, both  engines  blown.  A  slight  deviation  in

flight path and his ship slammed into the trench wall. Blue Ten  slowed  and

accelerated, bobbed drunkenly, but could do little within  the  confines  of

those metal walls.

     "I can't hold  them  long.  You'd  better  fire  while  you  can,  Blue

Leader-we're closing on you."

     The squadron commander was wholly absorbed in  lining  up  two  circles

within his targeting visor. "We're almost home. Steady, steady..."

     Blue Ten glanced around frantically. "They're right behind me!"

     Blue Leader was amazed at how calm he was.  The  targeting  device  was

partly responsible, enabling him to concentrate on tiny, abstract images  to

the exclusion of all else, helping him to shut out the rest of the  inimical

universe.

     "Almost there, almost there..." he  whispered.  Then  the  two  circles

matched, turned red, and a steady buzzing sounded in his helmet.  "Torpedoes

away, torpedoes away."

     Immediately after, Blue Ten let his own missiles loose.  Both  fighters

pulled up sharply, just clearing the end of the trench as several explosions

billowed in their wake.

     "It's a hit! We've done it!" Blue Ten shouted hysterically.

     Blue Leader's reply was thick with  disappointment.  "No,  we  haven't.

They didn't go in. They just exploded on the surface outside the shaft."

     Disappointment killed them, too, as  they  neglected  to  watch  behind

them. Three pursuing Imperial fighters continued up out of the fading  light

from the torpedo explosions. Blue Ten fell to Vader's precision  fire,  then

the Dark Lord changed  course  slightly  to  fall  in  behind  the  squadron

commander.

     "I'll take the last one," he announced coldly. "You two go back."

     Luke was trying to pick the assault team out of the glowing gases below

when Blue Leader's voice sounded over the communicator.

     "Blue Five, this is Blue Leader. Move into position, Luke.  Start  your

attack run-stay low and wait until you're right on top of it. It's not going

to be easy."

     "Are you all right?"

     "They're on top of me-but I'll shake them."

On the battle station, troopers worn half to death or deafened  by  the

concussion of the big guns were replaced by fresh crews. None  of  them  had

time to wonder how the battle was going, and at the moment none of them much

cared, a malady shared by common soldiers since the dawn of history.

     Luke skimmed daringly low over the  station's  surface,  his  attention

riveted on a distant metal projection.

     "Stick close, Blue Five," the squadron commander directed  him.  "Where

are you going?"

     "I've picked up what looks like a lateral  stabilizer,"  Luke  replied.

"I'm going to try for it."

     "Watch yourself, Blue Five. Heavy fire in your area."

     Luke ignored the warning as he headed the fighter straight  toward  the

oddly shaped  protuberance.  His  determination  was  rewarded  when,  after

saturating it with fire, he saw it erupt in a spectacular ball  of  superhot

gas.

     "Got it!" he exclaimed. "Continuing south for another one."

     Within the rebel temple-fortress, Leia listened  intently.  She  seemed

simultaneously angry and frightened. Finally  she  turned  to  Threepio  and

muttered, "Why is Luke taking so many chances?" The tall droid didn't reply.

     "Watch your back, Luke,"  Biggs's  voice  sounded  over  the  speakers,

"watch your back! Fighters above you, coming in."

     Leia strained to see what she could only hear. She wasn't alone.  "Help

him, Artoo," Threepio was whispering to himself, "and keep holding on."

     Luke continued his dive even as he looked back and spotted  the  object

of Biggs's concern close on his tail. Reluctantly he pulled up and away from

the station surface, abandoning his target. His tormentor was good, however,

and continued closing on him.

     "I can't shake him," he reported.

     Something cut across the sky toward both ships.  "I'm  on  him,  Luke,"

shouted Wedge Antilles. "Hold on."

     Luke didn't have to for very long. Wedge's gunnery was precise, and the

TIE fighter vanished brightly shortly thereafter.

     "Thanks, Wedge," Luke murmured, breathing a little more easily.

     "Good shooting, Wedge." That was Biggs again. "Blue Four, I'm going in.

Cover me, Porkins."

     "I'm right with you, Blue Three," came the other pilot's assurance.

     Biggs leveled them off, then let go with full  weaponry.  No  one  ever

decided exactly what it was he hit, but the small tower that blew  up  under

his energy bolts was obviously more important than it looked.

     A series of sequential explosions hopscotched across a large section of

the battle station's surface, leaping from one terminal to the  next.  Biggs

had already shot past the area of disturbance, but his companion,  following

slightly behind, received a full dose of whatever energy  was  running  wild

down there.

     "I've got a problem," Porkins announced. "My converter's running wild."

That was an understatement. Every  instrument  on  his  control  panels  had

abruptly gone berserk.

     "Eject-eject, Blue Four," advised Biggs. "Blue Four, do you read?"

     "I'm okay," Porkins replied. "I can hold her. Give me a little room  to

run, Biggs."

     "You're too low," his companion yelled. "Pull up, pull up!"

     With his instrumentation not providing proper information, and  at  the

altitude he was traveling, Porkins's ship was simple for  one  of  the  big,

clumsy gun emplacements to track. It did as its designers  had  intended  it

should. Porkins's demise was as glorious as it was abrupt.

     It was comparatively quiet near the pole  of  the  battle  station.  So

intense and vicious had been  Blue  and  Green  squadron's  assault  on  the

equator that Imperial resistance had concentrated there. Red Leader surveyed

the false peace with mournful satisfaction, knowing  it  wouldn't  last  for

long.

     "Blue Leader, this is Red Leader," he announced into his  mike.  "We're

starting our attack run. The exhaust port is located and marked. No flak, no

enemy fighters up here-yet. Looks like we'll get at least one smooth run  at

it."

     "I copy, Red Leader," the voice of his  counterpart  responded.  "We'll

try to keep them busy down here."

     Three Y-wing fighters dropped out  of  the  stars,  diving  toward  the

battle-station surface. At the last possible minute they swerved to dip into

a deep artificial canyon, one of many streaking the  northern  pole  of  the

Death Star. Metal ramparts raced past on three sides of them.

     Red Leader hunted around, noticed the  temporary  absence  of  Imperial

fighters. He adjusted a control and addressed his squadron.

     "This is it, boys. Remember, when you think you're close, go in  closer

before you drop that rock. Switch all power to front deflector screens-never

mind what they throw at you from the side. We can't worry about that now."

     Imperial crews lining the trench rudely awoke to the  fact  that  their

heretofore ignored section of the station  was  coming  under  attack.  They

reacted speedily, and soon energy bolts were racing at the  attacking  ships

in a steadily increasing volume. Occasionally one would explode near one  of

the onrushing Y- wings, jostling it without real damage.

     "A little aggressive, aren't they," Red Two reported over his mike.

     Red Leader reacted quietly. "How many guns do you think, Red Five?"

     Red Five, known casually to most of the rebel pilots as  Pops,  somehow

managed to make an estimate of the trench's  defenses  while  simultaneously

piloting his fighter through the  growing  hail  of  fire.  His  helmet  was

battered almost to the point of uselessness from the effects of more battles

than anyone had a right to survive.

     "I'd say about twenty emplacements," he finally decided, "some  in  the

surface and some on the towers."

     Red Leader acknowledged the information with a grunt as he  pulled  his

computer-targeting visor down in front of his face. Explosions continued  to

rock the fighter. "Switch to targeting computers," he declared.

     "Red Two," came one reply,  "computer  locked  in  and  I'm  getting  a

signal." The young pilot's rising excitement marked his reply.

     But the senior pilot among all the rebels, Red  Five,  was  expectantly

cool and confident-though it didn't sound like it from what he murmured half

to himself: "No doubt about it, this is going to be some trick."

     Unexpectedly, all defensive  fire  from  the  surrounding  emplacements

ceased. An eerie quiet clung to the trench as the surface continued to  blur

past the skimming Y-wings.

     "What's  this?"  Red  Two  blurted,  looking  around  worriedly.  "They

stopped. Why?"

     "I don't like it," growled Red Leader. But there was nothing to confuse

their approach now, no energy bolts to avoid.

     It was Pops who was first to properly evaluate this seeming  aberration

on the enemy's part. "Stabilize your rear deflectors now.  Watch  for  enemy

fighters."

     "You pinned it, Pops," Red Leader admitted, studying a  readout.  "Here

they come. Three marks at two-ten."

     A mechanical voice continued to recite the shrinking distance to  their

target, but it wasn't shrinking  fast  enough.  "We're  sitting  ducks  down

here," he observed nervously.

     "We'll just have to ride it out," the old man told them all. "We  can't

defend ourselves and go for the target at the same time." He fought down old

reflexes as  his  own  screen  revealed  three  TIE  fighters  in  precision

formation diving almost vertically down toward them.

     "Three-eight-one-oh-four," Darth Vader announced as he calmly  adjusted

his controls. The stars whipped past behind him.  "I'll  take  them  myself.

Cover me."

     Red Two was the first to die, the young pilot never  knowing  what  hit

him, never seeing his executioner. Despite his experience, Red Leader was on

the verge of panic when he saw his wingman dissolve in flame.

     "We're trapped down here. No  way  to  maneuver-trench  walls  are  too

close. We've got to loosen it up somehow. Got-"

     "Stay on target," admonished an older voice. "Stay on target."

     Red Leader took Pops's words like tonic, but it was all he could do  to

ignore the closing TIE fighters as the two remaining  Y-wings  continued  to

streak toward the target.

     Above them, Vader permitted himself a moment of undisciplined  pleasure

as he readjusted his targeting 'puter. The rebel craft continued to travel a

straight, unevasive course. Again Vader touched finger to fire control.

     Something screeched in Red Leader's helmet, and fire started to consume

his instrumentation. "It's no good," he yelled into his  pickup,  "I'm  hit.

I'm hit...!"

     A second Y-wing exploded in a ball of vaporized metal, scattering a few

solid shards of debris across the trench. This second loss proved  too  much

even for Red Five to take. He manipulated controls, and his  ship  commenced

rising in a slow curve out of the trench.  Behind  him,  the  lead  Imperial

fighter moved to follow.

     "I got a little toasted, but I'm okay."

     A different, stern voice sounded.  "Blue  Five,"  warned  the  squadron

leader, "you'd better give yourself  more  lead  time  or  you're  going  to

destroy yourself as well as the Imperial construction."

     "Yes, sir. I've got the hang of it now. Like you said, it's not exactly

like flying a sky hopper."

     Energy bolts and sun-bright beams continued to create a chromatic  maze

in the space above the station as the rebel fighters crisscrossed  back  and

forth over its surface, firing at whatever looked like a decent target.  Two

of the tiny craft concentrated on a power terminal.  It  blew  up,  throwing

lightning-sized electric arcs from the station's innards.

     Inside,  troopers,  mechanicals,  and  equipment  were  blown  in   all

directions by subsidiary explosions as the effects  of  the  blast  traveled

back down various conduits and cables. Where the explosion  had  hulled  the

station, escaping atmosphere sucked helpless soldiers and droids out into  a

bottomless black tomb.

     Moving from position to position, a figure of dark calm amid the chaos,

was Darth  Vader.  A  harried  Commander  rushed  up  to  him  and  reported

breathlessly.

     "Lord Vader, we count at least thirty of them, of two types.  They  are

so small and quick the  fixed  guns  cannot  follow  them  accurately.  They

continuously evade the predictors."

     "Get all TIE crews to their fighters. We'll have to go out  after  them

and destroy them ship by ship."

     Within numerous hangars red lights  began  flashing  and  an  insistent

alarm started to ring. Ground crews worked frantically  to  ready  ships  as

flight-suited Imperial pilots grabbed for helmets and packs.

     "Luke," requested Blue Leader as he skimmed smoothly through a rain  of

fire, "let me know when you're off the block."

     "I'm on my way now."

     "Watch yourself," the voice urged over the cockpit speaker. "There's  a

lot of fire coming from the starboard side of that deflection tower."

     "I'm on it, don't  worry,"  Luke  responded  confidently.  Putting  his

fighter into a twisting dive, he sliced once  more  across  metal  horizons.

Antennae and small protruding emplacements burst into  transitory  flame  as

bolts from his wing tips struck with deadly accuracy.

     He grinned as he pulled up and away from the surface as  intense  lines

of energy passed through space recently vacated. Darned if  it  wasn't  like

hunting womp-rats back home in the crumbling canyons of Tatooine's wastes.

     Biggs followed Luke on a similar run, even as Imperial pilots  prepared

to lift clear of the station. Within the many docking bays  technical  crews

rushed hurriedly to unlock power cables and conclude desperate final checks.

     More care was taken in preparing a particular craft nearest one of  the

bay ports, the one into which Darth Vader barely succeeded in squeezing  his

huge frame. Once set in the seat he slid a second set of eye shields  across

his face.

     The atmosphere of the war room back in the temple was  one  of  nervous

expectancy. Occasional blinks and buzzes from the main battle screen sounded

louder than the soft sussuration of hopeful people trying  to  reassure  one

another. Near a far corner of the mass of  flickering  lights  a  technician

leaned a little closer to his own readouts before speaking into  the  pickup

suspended near his mouth.

     "Squad leaders-attention; squad leaders-attention! We've  picked  up  a

new set of signals from the other side of the station. Enemy fighters coming

your way."

     Luke received the report at the same time as everyone  else.  He  began

hunting the sky for the predicted Imperial craft, his gaze dropping  to  his

instrumentation. "My scope's negative. I don't see anything."

     "Maintain visual scanning," Blue Leader directed. "With all this energy

flying, they'll be on top of  you  before  your  scope  can  pick  them  up.

Remember, they can jam every instrument on your ship except your eyes."

     Luke turned again, and this time saw an Imperial  already  pursuing  an

X-wing-an X-wing with a number Luke quickly recognized.

     "Biggs!" he shouted. "You've picked one up. On your tail... watch it!"

     "I can't see it," came his friend's panicked response. "Where is he?  I

can't see it."

     Luke watched helplessly as Biggs's ship  shot  away  from  the  station

surface and out into clear space, closely  followed  by  the  Imperial.  The

enemy vessel fired steadily at him, each successive bolt seeming to  pass  a

little closer to Biggs's hull.

     "He's on me tight," the voice sounded in Luke's cockpit. "I can't shake

him."

     Twisting, spinning, Biggs looped back toward the  battle  station,  but

the pilot trailing him was persistent and showed no  sign  of  relinquishing

pursuit.

     "Hang on, Biggs," Luke called, wrenching his  ship  around  so  steeply

that straining gyros whined. "I'm coming in."

     So absorbed in his pursuit of Biggs was  the  Imperial  pilot  that  he

didn't see Luke, who rotated his own ship, flipped  out  of  the  concealing

gray below and dropped in behind him.

     Electronic  crosshairs  lined  up  according  to  the  computer-readout

instructions, and Luke fired repeatedly. There  was  a  small  explosion  in

space-tiny compared  with  the  enormous  energies  being  put  out  by  the

emplacements on the surface of the battle station. But the explosion was  of

particular  significance  to  three   people:   Luke,   Biggs,   and,   most

particularly, to the pilot of the TIE fighter, who was  vaporized  with  his

ship.

     "Got him!" Luke murmured.

     "I've got one! I've got one!" came a less  restrained  cry  of  triumph

over the open intercom. Luke identified the voice as belonging  to  a  young

pilot known as John D. Yes, that  was  Blue  Six  chasing  another  Imperial

fighter across the metal landscape. Bolts jumped from the X-wing  in  steady

succession until the TIE fighter blew in half, sending  leaflike  glittering

metal fragments flying in all directions.

     "Good shooting, Blue Six," the squadron leader commented. Then he added

quickly, "Watch out, you've got one on your tail."

     Within the fighter's cockpit the gleeful smile on the young man's  face

vanished instantly  as  he  looked  around,  unable  to  spot  his  pursuer.

Something flared brightly nearby, so close that his  starboard  port  burst.

Then something hit even closer and the interior  of  the  now  open  cockpit

became a mass of flames.

     "I'm hit, I'm hit!"

     That was all he had time  to  scream  before  oblivion  took  him  from

behind. Far above and to one side Blue Leader saw John D.'s ship expand in a

fiery ball. His lips may have whitened slightly. Otherwise he might as  well

never have seen the X-wing explode, for all the reaction  he  displayed.  He

had more important things to do.

     On the fourth moon of Yavin a spacious  screen  chose  that  moment  to

flicker and die, much as John D. had. Worried technicians began  rushing  in

all directions. One turned a drawn face to Leia, the  expectant  Commanders,

and one tall, bronzed robot.

     "The high-band receiver has failed. It will take some time to fix..."

     "Do the best you can," Leia snapped. "Switch to audio only."

     Someone overheard, and in seconds the room was filled with  the  sounds

of distant battle, interspersed with the voices of those involved.

     "Tighten it up, Blue Two, tighten  it  up,"  Blue  Leader  was  saying.

"Watch those towers."

     "Heavy fire, Boss," came the voice  of  Wedge  Antilles,  "twenty-three

degrees."

     "I see it. Pull in, pull in. We're picking up some interference."

     "I can't believe it," Biggs  was  stammering.  "I've  never  seen  such

firepower!"

     "Pull in, Blue Five. Pull in." A pause, then, "Luke, do  you  read  me?

Luke?"

     "I'm all right, Chief," came Luke's reply.  "I've  got  a  target.  I'm

going to check it out."

     "There's too much action down there, Luke," Biggs told him.  "Get  out.

Do you read me, Luke? Pull out."

     "Break off, Luke," ordered the deeper tones of Blue Leader. "We've  hit

too much interference here. Luke, I repeat, break off! I can't see him. Blue

Two, can you see Blue Five?"

     "Negative," Wedge replied  quickly.  "There's  a  fire  zone  here  you

wouldn't believe. My scanner's jammed. Blue Five, where are you?  Luke,  are

you all right?"

     "He's gone," Biggs started to report solemnly.  Then  his  voice  rose.

"No, wait... there he is! Looks like a little  fin  damage,  but  the  kid's

fine."

     Relief swept the war room, and it was most noticeable in  the  face  of

the slightest, most beautiful Senator present.

I'm about to stuff your thread with most of chapter 12 from Star Wars.  Hopefully you find this enlightening.  Let me know if I'm not being useful.  I hope this isn't annoying.  If you want to skip to the most relevant posts, go here.

     "Check, Blue Two. Watch yourself. All ships, stand by to  lock  S-foils

in attack mode."

     One after another, from Luke and Biggs, Wedge and the other members  of

Blue assault squadron, the replies came back. "Standing by..."

     "Execute," Blue Leader commanded, when John D. and Piggy had  indicated

they were in readiness.

     The double wings on the X-wing fighters split apart, like narrow seeds.

Each fighter  now  displayed  four  wings,  its  wing-mounted  armament  and

quadruple engines now deployed for maximum firepower and maneuverability.

     Ahead, the Imperial station continued to grow. Surface features  became

visible as each pilot recognized docking bays, broadcast antennae, and other

man-made mountains and canyons.

     As he neared that threatening black sphere for the second time,  Luke's

breathing  grew  faster.  Automatic  life-support  machinery  detected   the

respiratory shift and compensated properly.

     Something began to buffet his ship, almost as if he were  back  in  his

skyhopper again, wrestling with the  unpredictable  winds  of  Tatooine.  He

experienced a bad moment of uncertainty until  the  calming  voice  of  Blue

Leader sounded in his ears.

     "We're passing through their  outer  shields.  Hold  tight.  Lock  down

freeze-floating controls and switch your own deflectors on, double front."

     The shaking and buffeting  continued,  worsened.  Not  knowing  how  to

compensate, Luke did exactly what he should have: remained  in  control  and

followed  orders.  Then  the  turbulence  was  gone  and  the  deathly  cold

peacefulness of space had returned.

     "That's it, we're through," Blue Leader told them  quietly.  "Keep  all

channels silent until we're on top of them. It  doesn't  look  like  they're

expecting much resistance."

     Though half the great station remained in shadow, they  were  now  near

enough for Luke to be able to discern individual lights on  its  surface.  A

ship that could show phases matching a moon... once again he marveled at the

misplaced ingenuity  and  effort  which  had  gone  into  its  construction.

Thousands of lights  scattered  across  its  curving  expanse  gave  it  the

appearance of a floating city.

     Some of Luke's comrades, since  this  was  their  first  sight  of  the

station, were even more impressed. "Look at the size of that  thing!"  Wedge

Antilles gasped over his open pickup.

     "Cut the chatter, Blue Two," Blue Leader ordered. "Accelerate to attack

velocity."

     Grim determination showed in Luke's expression as  he  flipped  several

switches above his head and began adjusting  his  computer  target  readout.

Artoo Detoo re-examined  the  nearing  station  and  thought  untranslatable

electronic thoughts.

     Blue Leader compared the station with the location  of  their  proposed

target area. "Red Leader," he  called  toward  the  pickup,  "this  is  Blue

Leader. We're in position; you can go right in. The exhaust shaft is farther

to the north. We'll keep 'em busy down here."

     Red Leader was the physical opposite of Luke's squadron  commander.  He

resembled the popular notion of a  credit  accountant-short,  slim,  shy  of

face. His skills and  dedication,  however,  easily  matched  those  of  his

counterpart and old friend.

     "We're starting for the target shaft now, Dutch. Stand by to take  over

if anything happens."

     "Check, Red Leader," came the other's  reply.  "We're  going  to  cross

their equatorial axis and try to draw their main fire. May the Force be with

you."

     From the approaching swarm, two squads of  fighters  broke  clear.  The

X-wing ships dove directly for the bulge of the station,  far  below,  while

the Y-ships curved down and northward over its surface.

     Within the station, alarm sirens began a mournful, clangorous  wail  as

slow-to-react personnel realized that the impregnable fortress was  actually

under organized attack. Admiral Motti and his tacticians  had  expected  the

Rebels' resistance to be centered around  a  massive  defense  of  the  moon

itself. They were completely unprepared for an offensive response consisting

of dozens of tiny snub ships.

     Imperial efficiency  was  in  the  process  of  compensating  for  this

strategic oversight. Soldiers scrambled to man enormous  defensive-  weapons

emplacements. Servodrivers thrummed as  powerful  motors  aligned  the  huge

devices for firing. Soon a web of annihilation began to envelop the  station

as energy weapons, electrical bolts, and explosive solids ripped out at  the

oncoming rebel craft.

     "This is Blue Five," Luke announced to his mike as he  nose  dived  his

ship in a radical attempt to confuse any electronic  predictors  below.  The

gray surface of the battle station streaked past his ports. "I'm going in."

     "I'm right behind you, Blue Five,"  a  voice  recognizable  as  Biggs's

sounded in his ears.

     The target in Luke's sights was as  stable  as  that  of  the  Imperial

defenders was evasive. Bolts  flew  from  the  tiny  vessel's  weapons.  One

started a huge fire on the dim surface below, which  would  burn  until  the

crew of the station could shut off the flow of air to the damaged section.

     Luke's glee turned to terror as he  realized  he  couldn't  swerve  his

craft in time to avoid passing through the fireball of unknown  composition.

"Pull out, Luke, pull out!" Biggs was screaming at him.

     But despite commands to shift course, the automatic  pressors  wouldn't

allow  the  necessary  centrifugal  force.  His  fighter  plunged  into  the

expanding ball of superheated gases.

     Then he was through and clear, on the other side. A rapid check of  his

controls enabled him to relax. Passage through the  intense  heat  had  been

insufficient to damage anything vital-though all four wings bore streaks  of

black, carbonized testimony to the nearness of his escape.

     Hell-flowers bloomed outside his ship as he swung it up and around in a

sharp curve. "You all right, Luke?" came Biggs's concerned query.

His knight guards that pawn, I'm afraid.

Yes, you do defend my pieces.  I've made sure of that through reading.  But you are right, what I did was make a capture. :)

This still has about 20 minutes to load, as of posting this, but it's the Battle of Yavin rearranged close to the novelization.  The majority of the editing was done by the very gifted but expelled Garrett Gilchrist on Star Wars: Deleted Magic.  It's actually a very cool documentary, though folks seem to have turned to Star Wars Begins.  I think both have their place.  The only editing I did (and with crappy and inaccurate Live Movie Maker, which never places cuts properly) was including Luke's first entrance to the Death Star trench and his exit after firing the proton torpedoes, both of which come from Star Tours.  See what you think.  I'm sure more could be done to make it better match the book, especially including Star Tours footage, though I'm not positive it's worth the effort.

https://vimeo.com/111299049

Password: Yavin

I'm also hoping to include the relevant text of the novel for your benefit in the near future.

RicOlie_2 said:

darth_ender said:

RicOlie_2 said:

AntcuFaalb said:

What's your opinion on this, d_e? http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf

I came across it on Reddit recently.

 Ender, could you elaborate on your thoughts about the following specific points outlined in the letter (or whatever it is) that AntcuFaalb linked to?:

• Why were there multiple, contradictory accounts of Joseph's first vision? That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one would forget enough to contradict oneself on (p. 23 in the PDF);

Have you read the accounts?

No, I have not read the accounts themselves. Certain details seemed to be mutually exclusive when I read the letter's summary of them (I don't feel like opening up the PDF again just to check for sure), but I can easily believe that critics exaggerate the differences (and they tend to exaggerate similarities when it suits their purpose).

• There is, of course, the issue of Joseph translating Egyptian artifacts which were later translated yielding a completely different result. I believe you've explained this before in this thread, but if I recall correctly, you simply (I don't mean to imply that you're a simpleton here, just that you don't have complicated beliefs on the subject :)) believe that the Egyptian texts have a dual meaning, and I'm curious why you believe that (pp. 25-30);

It's one of several possibilities posed by apologists.  What I believe the texts to be are ancient Egyptian texts, exactly as most interpret[...].

I think that makes sense and that's the first time I've heard a reasonable rationalization of those data.

• Joseph Smith was shown to be unreliable with his denial of his polygamy, so it seems quite possible, if not likely, that he was unreliable in general. If he got thirty-one witnesses to sign in testimony against Joseph's polygamical practices, should one consider the testimony of the witnesses to the golden plates any more reliable? If Joseph Smith was known to lie, and used his leadership to pressure numerous women and girls to marry him, while forbidding polygamy to all other Mormons, how can anything else he said and claimed be trusted ? (p. 34);

While being unreliable does cast a person's character in doubt, it does not invalidate all that a person says[...]

As for his witnesses, different events, the extent of their witness, who the witnesses are (i.e. one being a poor witness for something does not invalidate another's witness for something else), once again the social conventions and circumstnces, etc.  It would be a fallacy to discredit Book of Mormon witnesses because of the affidavit of the witnesses of Joseph's marriages.

I agree with that. My point was just that if he could find such a large number of people to testify to his monogamy when he was practicing polygamy, it seems he could have had people testify to the truth of the golden plates without them being true. My focus on the witnesses is in part due to a vague recollection from reading through this thread that the witnesses to the plates was a significant factor in your acceptance of Mormonism as the truth.

[...]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Template:PolygamyPortal

Fair enough, though I don't find all fairmormon.org's arguments more convincing than the author of the PDF's. I can put that down to lack of in-depth reading from the Mormon side of things.

• Some of the witnesses were apparently unreliable (I forget what you wrote previously about the witnesses, so perhaps the others make up for the following): 

 

Martin Harris had mortgaged his farm to finance the Book of Mormon, and thus would not be an unbiased witness (and not to the golden plates themselves, but a cloth-covered object supposed to be the plates), not to mention that he had belonged to five other denominations previously, testifying to the truth of all of them at various times, and Mormonism wasn't the last (pp. 52-53);

There is no such thing as an unbiased witness.  However, if he did not see what he says he saw, don't you think he'd be more likely to actually take a stand against it?  "You mean I wasted my money on this phony book?!"  And most of his faith was indeed devoted to schisms of Mormonism.  Only his interest in the Shakers followed.

Note that this is incomplete but i won't be able to post till tomorrow probably. 

 Indeed, there is no such thing as an unbiased witness, but a person can be an unbiased (or almost so) witness for a certain thing. I don't agree he'd be more likely to take a stance against it, but I won't argue my thoughts on it, since that isn't the purpose of the thread. The letter/PDF states that Martin Harris was a member of five previous religious organizations, some of which he testified for. Is that inaccurate? Even so, if he testified for one, that seems to effectively nullify the validity of his later testimony. Again, as you say, the unreliability of one witness doesn't mean they were all unreliable, but I think it's safe to say that this one wasn't.

 Stuff to address here, plus your original big post.  It takes a while, and I've already given a lot of time to this.  I promise I will answer your questions.  And I don't mind some debate or countering my points.  I just don't like the endless back and forth that I was afraid was going to happen.  It's happened before with much harsher critics (CP3S, Bingowings), and I don't like it.

Tobar said:

Being a quarter Native American myself, I'm curious to hear what the views of Mormonism are today in relation to us.

 If one were to read a preface to the Book of Mormon, he would read that the Lamanites, which in turn were descendants of Manasseh, the older son of Joseph, are the principle ancestors of the Native Americans.  At this point however, the general consensus has changed without the importance of the message having changed.  Many critics have pointed to the lack of genetic evidence of the relationship as a criticism of our faith.  However, many things must be borne in mind when listening to this criticism.  I am not an expert in genetics, but many factors could easily explain the discrepancy, including a dominance of other races (Mongoloid as the predominant modern theory), the substantial loss of Native American life to war and disease following the European invasions (up to 90% killed), etc.  I encourage reading here.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship_to_Amerindians

I also find it ironic that those who criticize our faith for believing this based on genetics are also quickest to dismiss other genetic evidence that contradicts their faith, such as evolution.  Either one must be open to the whole possibility or disregard its legitimacy more completely.

dclarkg said:

darth_ender said:

dclarkg said:

I understand that your religion has claims that their own members indeed believe but I'm referring about the arguments to sustain a set of claims as true, I suppose that there must be some arguments that justifies those claims against other theist claims.

 If I understand you correctly we rely on personal revelation from God and believe all are entitled to this, which is our primary justification to our claim.

I see, may I ask which revelation?

 We believe any honest seeker can ask God to know if the message of our faith is true can receive an answer of the affirmative from God.

I still have limited time, so I will try to answer a couple and will try to find time to answer more in the near future.

I think all my pawns are defended.  I've got a different idea, and hopefully it works.  I will attack his lance with mine, while you attack your dad's king with your gold general.  Double attacks are the only way to gain any kind of upper hand.  In the end I think we'll only gain a pawn, but any gain is a good thing.

L-9lm

Man, back to my depressing position :(

B-10uv check

Wonder if this might be useful for ideas as well, though I'm not sure you'd want to go for any of his thoughts. Just found it looking for OCP's re-edit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5VahaEL7s

Ryan McAvoy said:

darth_ender said:

Another thought I've had... Luke made two runs through the Death Star trench

the Star Tours footage includes... a different shot of entering the trench, flying down the trench, a little dogfighting with TIE fighters

Can't quite get my head round how that would work with the footage available?

Is the Star Tours stuff HD and or CGI/Trad-Models etc? Sounds interesting.

It is not HD, and it's good old fashioned practical effects.  They do a pretty good job matching the OT.  I'm talking the original Star Tours, not the CGI sequel, although my project included that as well.  Like I said, I'm not aware of any HD version, but given the quality of some of your clips, it doesn't seem like the end of the world, especially for a few seconds of footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9CWq5JmGOs

My preservation has the above version in the highest available quality, as well as another similar but not identical version, one which I find better for color correction, though in the end it will be B/W an the horrible colors shouldn't matter too much for your edit anyway.  The most useful portions start at about the 3 minute mark.

As for how to pull it off, I admit when I first posted it, I knew it would take some serious editing, pulling shots from other parts of the battle and inserting them into this extra trench run.  Actually, a lot of the dialogue used elsewhere is in fact written in the novel as part of the two trench run.  So I'm not convinced it's impossible, though admittedly it looks challenging, particularly when it comes to the accompanying score.  It's just an idea, but it would be fun if it could be pulled off.

Okay, after pausing for a bit, I am finishing this comment, and I've now read the portion from the novel and watched OCP's Star Wars: Deleted Magic, which does a pretty good job arranging the battle as it is portrayed in the novel, which again is presumably patterned after a late script.  It can be done, and the additional footage from Star Tours makes it even more doable.  I really recommend checking out both for ideas.  A few more lines could easily be done by just about anyone for the TIE pilots, and I am convinced it is possible to do a good Vader impersonation to achieve desired dialogue with proper audio editing (useful for other scenes as well, of course).  Such a Battle of Yavin would indeed be a slower edit, and I of course prefer the original editing, but for the sake of a lost cut, I am more and more convinced that it would be worth pursuing, at least in theory if you ultimately choose not to do it.

lpd said:

Just read through this, had a go at this once myself but it went the same as all my edits onto the back burner. Some of your clips look great cant wait to watch your finished product.

I'm still recharging my batteries on this one, while working on other edits. I'm about 90% of the way through a Star Trek project where I've learned sooo much, that I'm gonna bring over to this. Alternate SFX shots galore!

 This would be very useful.  I've been watching your ST:TMP edit quietly at FE.org (I'm much quieter there), and I'm impressed with the skills you are developing.  I can imagine only a better edit of this in the end.  Hope my ideas are useful :)

Great news!  I figured it out!  So my next move is P9zaa-10yz.

I'm using LibreOffice, which appears to be matching the coordinate descriptions, but let me know if that move doesn't work.

I'm so frustrated.  I know I have an old copy of MS Office 2003 somewhere, but I can't find it.  The freeware office suites don't let me use the hex picture as a background behind the cells, so either I can't see the pieces or I can't see the board (it's pretty hard to visualize as just the staggered rectangles).  I've been very busy and can't take my PC with me like I can the laptop, so I can't sneak in moves as often.  So I haven't been able to get this to work.  It's kind of irritating.  I hope your dad hasn't lost interest. :(

Yes, it does, though it is definitely different in nature.

And I figured out why I thought you were Catholic: because you'd followed the voting for the new Pope so closely and listed the names (now canonized and beatified where appropriate!) that I must have made the assumption and tucked it in the back of my brain.

Timdiggerm, I hope I provided respectful answers and did not anger you.  I appreciate your position, but I just don't want to go in an endless loop over our differences.  I hope you'll continue to poke and pry and challenge my beliefs.  It's a worthwhile exercise for me to defend my faith.

RicOlie_2 said:

AntcuFaalb said:

What's your opinion on this, d_e? http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf

I came across it on Reddit recently.

 Ender, could you elaborate on your thoughts about the following specific points outlined in the letter (or whatever it is) that AntcuFaalb linked to?:

• Why were there multiple, contradictory accounts of Joseph's first vision? That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one would forget enough to contradict oneself on (p. 23 in the PDF);

Have you read the accounts?  I've not bothered any more with that pdf, but I doubt it actually includes the accounts, which critics are eager to make more contradictory than they actually are.  I've read them all, and while they emphasize on different things, they are not particularly contradictory.  The biggest challenge comes from the earliest account mentioning only Jesus Christ (whom we believe is separate from God the Father), while later accounts include both.  But again, it doesn't exclude the possibility.  What must also be borne in mind is the fact that Joseph was addressing different audiences.  There is no indication of contradiction found among Joseph's family or earliest followers, who might have mentioned some issue with the changing tale had they really found a contradiction.

• There is, of course, the issue of Joseph translating Egyptian artifacts which were later translated yielding a completely different result. I believe you've explained this before in this thread, but if I recall correctly, you simply (I don't mean to imply that you're a simpleton here, just that you don't have complicated beliefs on the subject :)) believe that the Egyptian texts have a dual meaning, and I'm curious why you believe that (pp. 25-30);

It's one of several possibilities posed by apologists.  What I believe the texts to be are ancient Egyptian texts, exactly as most interpret.  But I also believe they are the corrupt remnants of what Abraham taught the Egyptians.  If you read the Book of Abraham, you see that Abraham visited the Egyptians and taught Pharaoh many things.  Imagine if Joseph Smith were a prophet of Norse mythology.  He found some text about Santa Claus in an unknown language, but translated it as a history of the Norse god Odin.  There are traits that have ultimately been passed down to our present day Santa Claus, and one could easily see them as a corruption of the "true faith" of Odin worship.  I hope my analogy makes sense.  I've linked elsewhere to further research and popular theories, but I won't take the time to find that right now.

• Joseph Smith was shown to be unreliable with his denial of his polygamy, so it seems quite possible, if not likely, that he was unreliable in general. If he got thirty-one witnesses to sign in testimony against Joseph's polygamical practices, should one consider the testimony of the witnesses to the golden plates any more reliable? If Joseph Smith was known to lie, and used his leadership to pressure numerous women and girls to marry him, while forbidding polygamy to all other Mormons, how can anything else he said and claimed be trusted ? (p. 34);

While being unreliable does cast a person's character in doubt, it does not invalidate all that a person says.  Furthermore, circumstances must be taken into account.  Polygamy was and is socially unacceptable to most, and was offensive to his wife.  There was no need to proclaim that such was a necessary public revelation, unlike the Book of Mormon and other teachings.

As for his witnesses, different events, the extent of their witness, who the witnesses are (i.e. one being a poor witness for something does not invalidate another's witness for something else), once again the social conventions and circumstnces, etc.  It would be a fallacy to discredit Book of Mormon witnesses because of the affidavit of the witnesses of Joseph's marriages.

Did Joseph pressure women to marry him?  It depends on the truth of his claims, I suppose.  But you really cannot rely on such a poorly documented and hostile source for all your information.  though the author of that PDF is a huge critic of FAIR, they are far better at documenting their research than he is.  I recommend reading through their treatments and deciding for yourself who argues more effectively.  There are numerous and effective points, such as the lack of any sexual contact between Joseph and many (if not most) of his wives, having consent from appropriate parties to follow through with the marriages, the nature of the marriages not being earthly (i.e. not effective on earth) but being heavenly (ultimately in force only after death), etc.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Template:PolygamyPortal

• Some of the witnesses were apparently unreliable (I forget what you wrote previously about the witnesses, so perhaps the others make up for the following): 

 

Martin Harris had mortgaged his farm to finance the Book of Mormon, and thus would not be an unbiased witness (and not to the golden plates themselves, but a cloth-covered object supposed to be the plates), not to mention that he had belonged to five other denominations previously, testifying to the truth of all of them at various times, and Mormonism wasn't the last (pp. 52-53);

There is no such thing as an unbiased witness.  However, if he did not see what he says he saw, don't you think he'd be more likely to actually take a stand against it?  "You mean I wasted my money on this phony book?!"  And most of his faith was indeed devoted to schisms of Mormonism.  Only his interest in the Shakers followed.

Note that this is incomplete but i won't be able to post till tomorrow probably. 

While we're interrogating folks' religious beliefs, I'm curious how you and other Catholics have taken the statements of Pope Francis regarding evolution, the Big Bang, etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/28/pope-francis-backs-theory-of-evolution-says-god-is-no-wizard/

Another thought I've had, though I don't know if it interests you or could be pulled off, is that in the novel, and presumably in the script given to ADF to novelize, Luke made two runs through the Death Star trench. The first kept him out of reach of Vader's squadron due to their rapid speed, but it obviously failed for the same reason and they had to make the run again. Though you still want to make an enjoyable, well paced movie, it seems this could be an interesting addition. As an additional resource, the Star Tours footage includes shots hardboiled useful, including a different shot of entering the trench, flying down the trench, a little dogfighting with TIE fighters, etc. Food for thought, anyway.

thejediknighthusezni said:

        Do Mormons believe it is possible to refuse to become Mormon and yet be saved?

        Can a "good Protestant" reject LDS and still achieve eternal life?

 Bearing in mind that mormon is a nickname, we believe  all must accept the fullness of Christ's gospel to be saved. We believe that much can be accepted after this life is over and that many good Christians and even good Muslims, buddhists, etc will accept the full truth eventually.

dclarkg said:

darth_ender said:

dclarkg said:

darth_ender said:

 Let me ask you a couple of questions and we will go from there.  Are you religious?  If so, what are you?

 I don't see how that's relevant for my original question (or the answer itself) but ok. I'm not religious, I was raised on a mild-devoted Catholic home but it never got into me.

 Well, many churches consider themselves to have the fullest truth.  How would my church's claim differ from others in acceptability?

But I will say, we claim that we have genuine priesthood and prophetic leadership, modern day revelation, and approval from God justifying our position.  Of course many dispute this, but that is our claim, and what I believe.  We believe that after Christ and his apostles died, there was a Great Apostasy wherein the full truth was lost and needed to be restored.  We believe it has been.

I understand that your religion has claims that their own members indeed believe but I'm referring about the arguments to sustain a set of claims as true, I suppose that there must be some arguments that justifies those claims against other theist claims.

 If I understand you correctly we rely on personal revelation from God and believe all are entitled to this, which is our primary justification to our claim.

RicOlie_2 said:

AntcuFaalb said:

What's your opinion on this, d_e? http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf

I came across it on Reddit recently.

 Ender, could you elaborate on your thoughts about the following specific points outlined in the letter (or whatever it is) that AntcuFaalb linked to?:

• Why were there multiple, contradictory accounts of Joseph's first vision? That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one would forget enough to contradict oneself on (p. 23 in the PDF);
• There is, of course, the issue of Joseph translating Egyptian artifacts which were later translated yielding a completely different result. I believe you've explained this before in this thread, but if I recall correctly, you simply (I don't mean to imply that you're a simpleton here, just that you don't have complicated beliefs on the subject :)) believe that the Egyptian texts have a dual meaning, and I'm curious why you believe that (pp. 25-30);
• Joseph Smith was shown to be unreliable with his denial of his polygamy, so it seems quite possible, if not likely, that he was unreliable in general. If he got thirty-one witnesses to sign in testimony against Joseph's polygamical practices, should one consider the testimony of the witnesses to the golden plates any more reliable? If Joseph Smith was known to lie, and used his leadership to pressure numerous women and girls to marry him, while forbidding polygamy to all other Mormons, how can anything else he said and claimed be trusted ? (p. 34);
• Some of the witnesses were apparently unreliable (I forget what you wrote previously about the witnesses, so perhaps the others make up for the following): 

 

Martin Harris had mortgaged his farm to finance the Book of Mormon, and thus would not be an unbiased witness (and not to the golden plates themselves, but a cloth-covered object supposed to be the plates), not to mention that he had belonged to five other denominations previously, testifying to the truth of all of them at various times, and Mormonism wasn't the last (pp. 52-53);

David Whitmer later testified that he had been instructed by God to split off from the main LDS Church, so one must either pick and choose among his testimonies or join his sect (p. 54);

Oliver Cowdery has a stronger case, but he was still a scribe and co-founder of Mormonism, so he could have easily been in cahoots with Joseph Smith in fabricating the Book of Mormon (p. 55);

• James Strang split from the LDS Church, and though I don't know much about the history of that, it seems that most of the witnesses followed him. If they were duped by James, why not by Joseph (pp. 57-60)?;
• There exists no extant copy of the testimony of witnesses of the golden plates (in the oldest copy of it, the "signatures" are all written by the same hand), so there seems to be no conclusive evidence that the testimony was actually signed and agreed upon (p. 60);
• The Testimony of Three Witnesses, which included Martin Harris, stated that they had beheld the plates and the engravings thereon, yet Martin Harris stated multiple other times that he had only seen them when covered with a cloth, and also that he had seen them with a spiritual eye. All three of those are very different things, and he seems not to have remembered what he saw. It appears he was making things up, and though he never retracted his statements, as far as I am aware (and from what I understand, left Joseph's church for James'), so it seems quite plausible that all the eyewitnesses were making it up (pp. 60-61);
• On the witnesses never retracting their eyewitness statements, see page 60 (although I take issue with the fact that he says none of the Marian apparitions were true ;));
• The summary in the conclusion about the eyewitnesses is also something I'd like you to address, if you don't cover it in your answer to the above.

 

Take your time answering me, and don't feel like you have to answer me all at once. I expect that some things you have a ready answer or set of links for, but I can wait for anything you want to spend a bit more time explaining. If you already explained something earlier in the thread, and I've forgotten about it, then link me to your post to save you some time.

I look forward to your responses.

 This will certainly take some time but I will be happy to answer. It's rough with a kindle fire so hang in there till I can get home and jump on my pc. Probably will begin composing answers tomorrow.