It's pretty hard to coordinate, especially since you can pick up on our plans and intervene, but that's okay. The board is a bit bigger. I can try to make it later, unless one of you wants to have a go.
I really don't think your situation is so bad. I still think you could win. This is the first time I feel we have a chance, honestly. But if you still wish to resign, I understand. If yes, then do you want to pick up the other three player game I suggested?
I'd love a movie sequel that completely disregarded the books. I only read Shadow Moon, but I didn't like it that much.
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
darth_ender said:
This is probably among the most ignorant, yet most frequent beliefs of atheists today. Many of the greatest minds in history have been religious, and the greatest discoveries and theories developed by the pious. I'd venture to say without shame, regardless of how arrogant it sounds, that I have a greater capacity to reason than most of this forum here. Am I the most intelligent? Likely not. Am I the most learned? Assuredly not. But I have delved into study and self-examination, into philosophy and refinement of understanding like no one I've met. I am willing to refine my theories, to question my beliefs, to examine different angles, and to entertain and acceptable seemingly contradicting possibilities with equal validity better than anyone I know. I consider my mind very gifted in this regard, and I find the snobbishness of today's Google atheists so tiresome and aggravating that I can hardly describe it.
I didn't say that people who are religious cannot do those things. I just consider religion a hinderance to those things. Kudos for those today and throughout history who have. I just think that a lot more of such thought and reflection might have happened without religion.
Amazingly, I'm surprised at the narrow-mindedness of so many atheists I've met. It seems that many have already concluded that their correctness is a foregone conclusion and make no further effort to try and challenge their own worldview.
Would you be offended if I tried to throw in a few of my ideas and see what you think? I have the trial version of some fancier software, and I'd like to try a few ideas out and send them your way.
Interested to know your thoughts on the Battle of Yavin, BTW.
Bx7lm
Ric, if I could kindly ask you to place your bishop on 10uv to defend my bishop, we can count ourselves a rook richer and a step closer to beating your dad (fingers crossed).
RicOlie_2 said:
David Whitmer later testified that he had been instructed by God to split off from the main LDS Church, so one must either pick and choose among his testimonies or join his sect (p. 54);
You have done this elsewhere, but here I will point out that you are succumbing to the either/or fallacy: either I must accept everything David Whitmer said was true, or I must accept none of it. Have you ever told a falsehood? So should I doubt everything you've ever said? David Whitmer was a man known to be of extremely good character, and when a periodical published late in his life that he had denied the Book of Mormon, he went to great lengths to rebut that claim and maintain his testimony, having numerous locals affirm his honesty. He continued, long after his membership in the main branch of the church had ended and until his dying day, that the Book of Mormon was true and that the plates from which they were translated were real. All his sense experienced the Book of Mormon. His split from the Church was likely based on a feeling he felt was from God rather than any kind of angelic witness, which is what his testimony of the plates included. He too felt Joseph was a fallen prophet for various reasons, I believe including polygamy as well as a failed financial institution called the Kirtland Safety Society.
Oliver Cowdery has a stronger case, but he was still a scribe and co-founder of Mormonism, so he could have easily been in cahoots with Joseph Smith in fabricating the Book of Mormon (p. 55);
In cahoots, even long after he had been excommunicated and bitter with Joseph? Not likely. Don't you think all these folks would have told somebody that they were lying?
Bear in mind, a further eight witnesses, most of whom left the Church, saw the plates, and not even with an "eye of faith," but rather simply, handling the plates physically.
Emma Smith, Joseph's wife, saw them wrapped in cloth, but never opened it, as she knew she wasn't supposed to. There was something wrapped there.
And David Whitmer's mother also claimed to have seen the plates by the hand of an angel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses#Another_witness
- James Strang split from the LDS Church, and though I don't know much about the history of that, it seems that most of the witnesses followed him. If they were duped by James, why not by Joseph (pp. 57-60)?;
James Strang's movement is surprisingly unknown among most members of my church. Sad because I find his movement very fascinating, more than any other splinter group. I have a few books on his church, including all scripture he ever published.
The witnesses left Joseph largely for his involvement in polygamy. The witnesses and others knew that Brigham Young and the Twelve Apostles, who succeeded Joseph immediately as a whole quorum, also practiced polygamy, and this was known among those who vocally opposed it. James Strang in his revelations denounced polygamy, and his prophethood was similar to Joseph's including translating plates and such. James later engaged in the practice himself, and had revelations and commentary that justified it, while removing that which denounced it.
- There exists no extant copy of the testimony of witnesses of the golden plates (in the oldest copy of it, the "signatures" are all written by the same hand), so there seems to be no conclusive evidence that the testimony was actually signed and agreed upon (p. 60);
Would they not have pointed that out themselves at some point if they felt the testimonies were not valid?
- The Testimony of Three Witnesses, which included Martin Harris, stated that they had beheld the plates and the engravings thereon, yet Martin Harris stated multiple other times that he had only seen them when covered with a cloth, and also that he had seen them with a spiritual eye. All three of those are very different things, and he seems not to have remembered what he saw. It appears he was making things up, and though he never retracted his statements, as far as I am aware (and from what I understand, left Joseph's church for James'), so it seems quite plausible that all the eyewitnesses were making it up (pp. 60-61);
Read Martin's own words rather than the pdf's author's and you'll see the great consistency, and not get hung up on phrases like "eye of faith," which match numerous other statements I've read in our scripture.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1.11?lang=eng
James was literally very low on the totem pole until Joseph died, at which point he made his claims. Martin didn't feel he was leaving Joseph's church for James'; he felt he had already been kicked out of Joseph's church, and was rejoining under Joseph's valid successor. We believe Brigham Young was the true successor, and ultimately, so did Martin Harris. The succession question caused great difficulty for some time after the martyrof Joseph, and many did not know who the true successor would be for some time. Most ultimately did decide on Brigham.
- On the witnesses never retracting their eyewitness statements, see page 60 (although I take issue with the fact that he says none of the Marian apparitions were true ;));
Marian apparitions???
Read the link I provided earlier with Martin's words and you will see the consistency I am describing. Instead of reading those words with anti-Mormon's providing context for our behalf (how nice of them), reading them on one's own actually paints a pretty clear picture.
And pg. 60 includes one second hand account, which already calls it into question, and one a supposed direct quote from an anti-Mormon of the period, stating it was under a cloth. How does one know these men are the truthful ones, while the words of the leaders of my church are always brought into question by the author of that pdf? He seems to take all opponents at face value, and all Mormon quotes as automatically suspicious. Do you see the poor methodology?
- The summary in the conclusion about the eyewitnesses is also something I'd like you to address, if you don't cover it in your answer to the above.
Oh, is that all you hope for :P
Jeremy T Runnells (I finally looked up his name again) said:
Conclusion:
1. “The Witnesses never recanted or denied their testimonies”:
? Neither did James Strang’s witnesses; even after they were excommunicated
from the church and estranged from Strang.
Untrue. One of Strang's witnesses did deny his testimony, and I believe admitted to helping fabricate James' plates.
Neither did dozens of Joseph
Smith’s neighbors and peers who swore and signed affidavits on Joseph and
his family’s characters.
Not sure what character attributes Runnells is bringing into question, but they were known to be good people.
Neither did many of the Shaker witnesses who signed
affidavits that they saw an angel on the roof top holding the “Sacred Roll and
Book” written by founder Ann Lee.
Does this make the witnesses to the Book of Mormon untrue? No. Is it possible one group is telling the truth and another not? Is it possible both have true messages, had true visitations, even if not all their belief systems are compatible? At this point I'm not well informed on this book or those testimonies, but I'm curious what those witnesses said and if it is as impressive.
Same goes with the thousands of people
over the centuries who claimed their entire lives to have seen the Virgin Mary
and pointing to their experience as evidence that Catholicism is true.
So is he saying they're lying as well? Do you believe those people are lying? Does seeing spiritual things make other spiritual things untrue?
There are also thousands of witnesses who never recanted their testimonies of
seeing UFO’s, Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, Abominable Snowman,
Aliens, and so on.
These are not spiritual in nature and not good comparisons.
It doesn’t mean anything. People can believe in false things their entire lives
and never recant. Just because they never denied or recanted does not follow
that their experience and claims are true or that reality matches to what their
perceived experience was.
This statement is true. However, if they saw the same thing at the same time, it makes it a lot harder to refute.
2. Problems:
? In discussing the witnesses, we should not overlook the primary accounts of
the events they testified to. The official statements published in the Book of
Mormon are not dated, signed (we have no record with their signatures
except for Oliver’s), nor is a specific location given for where the events
occurred. These are not eleven legally sworn affidavits but rather simple
statements pre-written by Joseph Smith with claims of having been signed by
three men and another by eight.
No one said it had to be a legal document. Clearly the witnesses accepted it as their valid testimonies. "Pre-written"? This is not known at all, but merely an assumption. And if we don't have the original testimonies, how do we know that they were not signed by the original witnesses? The earliest copy is the printer's manuscript, the first copy of the original manuscript, written by Oliver Cowdery to be given to the printer for publishing. He signed it as he signed for the other witnesses. At least his testimony has the original signature, as if this somehow makes a spiritual thing binding on the US government or something.
? All of the Book of Mormon witnesses, excepting Martin Harris, were related
by blood or marriage either with the Smiths or Whitmers.
Oliver Cowdery
(married to Elizabeth Ann Whitmer and cousin to Joseph Smith), Hiram Page
(married to Catherine Whitmer), and the five Whitmers were related by
marriage. Of course, Hyrum Smith, Samuel Smith, and Joseph Smith Sr. were
Joseph’s brothers and father.
Mark Twain made light of this obvious problem:
“…I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had
testified.” – Roughing It, p.107-115
And? The Whitmers weren't related to Joseph, so what does a relation to David Whitmer matter? Others who were not related also witnessed and related other miracles. This does not prove anything, although if one casts enough reason to doubt (i.e. implying there must be some bias), eventually it will stick.
? Within eight years, all of the Three Witnesses were excommunicated from the
Church. This is what Joseph Smith said about them in 1838:
“Such characters as…John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery,
and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to
have forgotten them.” – History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 15, p. 232
This is what First Counselor of the First Presidency and once close associate
Sidney Rigdon had to say about Oliver Cowdery:
“…a lying, thieving, counterfeiting man who was ‘united with a
gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs in the deepest
dye, to deceive, cheat, and defraud the saints out of their property,
by every art and stratagem which wickedness could invent…”
– February 15, 1841 Letter and Testimony, p.6-963
What does it say about the witnesses and their characters if even the Prophet
and his counselor in the First Presidency thought they were questionable?
Gosh, I don't think I have time to address everything, especially since I don't know everything, but clearly there were hurt feelings. Yet neither side denounced the honesty of the other in the matter of the Book of Mormon.
? As mentioned in the above “Polygamy/Polyandry” section, Joseph was able
to influence and convince many of the 31 witnesses to lie and perjure in a
sworn affidavit that Joseph was not a polygamist. Is it outside the realm of
possibility that Joseph was also able to influence or manipulate the
experiences of his own magical thinking treasure digging family and friends
as witnesses? Mormon men who already believed in second sight and who
already believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?
Poor comparisons, as I pointed out earlier to you. If I were having an affair but appeared honest, I could easily convince my friends to sign an affidavit for me. But the witnesses to the plates actually claim to be witnesses, not just merely testaments of character.
? If the Prophet Joseph Smith could get duped with the Kinderhook Plates
thinking that the 19th century fake plates were a legitimate record of a
“descendent of Ham,” how is having gullible guys like Martin Harris handling
the covered gold plates going to prove anything?
There is no evidence that Joseph Smith actually thought anything of those plates. William Clayton, who was Joseph Smith's secretary, recorded that Joseph had in the first person, but Joseph never made any claim or publication himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plates#Smith.27s_response
Is it possible that he was recording what Joseph actually said? Possibly. However, I refer you to the following:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Forgeries_related_to_Mormonism/Joseph_Smith_and_the_Kinderhook_Plates
? James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more
impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses:
? All of Strang’s witnesses were not related to one another through blood
or marriage like the Book of Mormon Witnesses were.
? Some of the witnesses were not members of Strang’s church.
? The Voree Plates were displayed in a museum for both members and
non-members to view and examine.
? Strang provided 4 witnesses who testified that on his instructions, they
actually dug the plates up for Strang while he waited for them to do
so. They confirmed that the ground looked previously undisturbed.
? The Shakers and Ann Lee:
The Shakers felt that "Christ has made his second appearance on earth, in a
chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee, and acknowledged by us as 64
our Blessed Mother in the work of redemption" (Sacred Roll and Book, p.358). The
Shakers, of course, did not believe in the Book of Mormon, but they had a
book entitled A Holy, Sacred and Divine Roll and Book; From the Lord God of
Heaven, to the Inhabitants of Earth.
More than 60 individuals gave testimony to the Sacred Roll and Book, which
was published in 1843. Although not all of them mention angels appearing,
some of them tell of many angels visiting them. One woman told of eight
different visions.
Here is the testimony statement:
We, the undersigned, hereby testify, that we saw the holy Angel standing
upon the house-top, as mentioned in the foregoing declaration, holding the
Roll and Book.
Betsey Boothe.
Louisa Chamberlain.
Caty De Witt.
Laura Ann Jacobs.
Sarah Maria Lewis.
Sarah Ann Spencer.
Lucinda McDoniels.
Maria Hedrick.
Joseph Smith only had three witnesses who claimed to see an angel. The
Shakers, however, had a large number of witnesses who claimed they saw
angels and the Sacred Roll and Book. There are over a hundred pages of
testimony from "Living Witnesses." The evidence seems to show that Martin
Harris accepted the Sacred Roll and Book as a divine revelation. Clark
Braden stated: "Harris declared repeatedly that he had as much evidence for
a Shaker book he had as for the Book of Mormon" (The Braden and Kelly Debate,
p.173).
Why should we believe the Book of Mormon witnesses but not the Shakers
witnesses? What are we to make of the reported Martin Harris comment that
he had as much evidence for the Shaker book he had as for the Book of
Mormon?
In light of the James Strang/Voree Plates witnesses, the fact that all of the Book of Mormon
Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer,
along with the fact that all of the witnesses were treasure hunters who believed in second sight,
and in light of their superstitions and reputations…why would anyone gamble with their lives in
believing in a book based on anything these men said or claimed or what’s written on the
testimonies of the Witnesses page in the Book of Mormon? 65
The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon
Witnesses as empirical, rational, nineteenth-century men instead of the nineteenth-century
magical thinking, superstitious, and treasure digging men they were. They have ignored the
peculiarities of their worldview, and by so doing, they misunderstand their experiences as
witnesses.
Ric_Olie2 said:
Take your time answering me, and don't feel like you have to answer me all at once. I expect that some things you have a ready answer or set of links for, but I can wait for anything you want to spend a bit more time explaining. If you already explained something earlier in the thread, and I've forgotten about it, then link me to your post to save you some time.
I look forward to your responses.
I don't have time to answer the whole conclusion section, nor would it do much good. Obviously the author is a critic and latches onto information that supports his bias, while I latch onto information that is not. However, his methods are very flawed in many cases, and I wouldn't place my trust in much of what he says. But as I said before, if you cast enough doubt, some of it will stick.
darth_ender said:
RicOlie_2 said:
darth_ender said:
RicOlie_2 said:
AntcuFaalb said:
What's your opinion on this, d_e? http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
I came across it on Reddit recently.
Ender, could you elaborate on your thoughts about the following specific points outlined in the letter (or whatever it is) that AntcuFaalb linked to?:
- Why were there multiple, contradictory accounts of Joseph's first vision? That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one would forget enough to contradict oneself on (p. 23 in the PDF);
Have you read the accounts?
No, I have not read the accounts themselves. Certain details seemed to be mutually exclusive when I read the letter's summary of them (I don't feel like opening up the PDF again just to check for sure), but I can easily believe that critics exaggerate the differences (and they tend to exaggerate similarities when it suits their purpose).
- There is, of course, the issue of Joseph translating Egyptian artifacts which were later translated yielding a completely different result. I believe you've explained this before in this thread, but if I recall correctly, you simply (I don't mean to imply that you're a simpleton here, just that you don't have complicated beliefs on the subject :)) believe that the Egyptian texts have a dual meaning, and I'm curious why you believe that (pp. 25-30);
It's one of several possibilities posed by apologists. What I believe the texts to be are ancient Egyptian texts, exactly as most interpret[...].
I think that makes sense and that's the first time I've heard a reasonable rationalization of those data.
- Joseph Smith was shown to be unreliable with his denial of his polygamy, so it seems quite possible, if not likely, that he was unreliable in general. If he got thirty-one witnesses to sign in testimony against Joseph's polygamical practices, should one consider the testimony of the witnesses to the golden plates any more reliable? If Joseph Smith was known to lie, and used his leadership to pressure numerous women and girls to marry him, while forbidding polygamy to all other Mormons, how can anything else he said and claimed be trusted ? (p. 34);
While being unreliable does cast a person's character in doubt, it does not invalidate all that a person says[...]
As for his witnesses, different events, the extent of their witness, who the witnesses are (i.e. one being a poor witness for something does not invalidate another's witness for something else), once again the social conventions and circumstnces, etc. It would be a fallacy to discredit Book of Mormon witnesses because of the affidavit of the witnesses of Joseph's marriages.
I agree with that. My point was just that if he could find such a large number of people to testify to his monogamy when he was practicing polygamy, it seems he could have had people testify to the truth of the golden plates without them being true. My focus on the witnesses is in part due to a vague recollection from reading through this thread that the witnesses to the plates was a significant factor in your acceptance of Mormonism as the truth.
Those who testified of his monogamy probably knew not of his polygamy and were not lying. The witnesses of the plates actually claimed to have seen and handled them. Quite different testimonies, don't you think, and not at all useful in a comparison?
[...]
Fair enough, though I don't find all fairmormon.org's arguments more convincing than the author of the PDF's. I can put that down to lack of in-depth reading from the Mormon side of things.
Probably. What issues are you getting hung up on again?
- Some of the witnesses were apparently unreliable (I forget what you wrote previously about the witnesses, so perhaps the others make up for the following):
Martin Harris had mortgaged his farm to finance the Book of Mormon, and thus would not be an unbiased witness (and not to the golden plates themselves, but a cloth-covered object supposed to be the plates), not to mention that he had belonged to five other denominations previously, testifying to the truth of all of them at various times, and Mormonism wasn't the last (pp. 52-53);
There is no such thing as an unbiased witness. However, if he did not see what he says he saw, don't you think he'd be more likely to actually take a stand against it? "You mean I wasted my money on this phony book?!" And most of his faith was indeed devoted to schisms of Mormonism. Only his interest in the Shakers followed.
Note that this is incomplete but i won't be able to post till tomorrow probably.
Indeed, there is no such thing as an unbiased witness, but a person can be an unbiased (or almost so) witness for a certain thing. I don't agree he'd be more likely to take a stance against it, but I won't argue my thoughts on it, since that isn't the purpose of the thread. The letter/PDF states that Martin Harris was a member of five previous religious organizations, some of which he testified for. Is that inaccurate? Even so, if he testified for one, that seems to effectively nullify the validity of his later testimony. Again, as you say, the unreliability of one witness doesn't mean they were all unreliable, but I think it's safe to say that this one wasn't.
A person can only be unbiased on something on which he has no information (in which case he is a pretty useless witness). David Whitmer became hostile towards Joseph Smith, yet remained firm in his witness till the end. Oliver Cowdery too became hostile and was estranged from the Church, but more because of his accusations of polygamy and other reasons believe Joseph was a fallen prophet. He was not so financially invested in the Church or the Book of Mormon, but as the primary scribe and man of second highest authority for most of his early membership, you'd think he had an ax to grind once removed from authority. Indeed, he continued to criticize Joseph Smith after his fall from grace, but he never, ever denied his testimony.
Maybe I used this link before, but here are Martin Harris's five churches following his departure from the Church.
Note that four of the five are Mormon split offs; only the Shakers were not. That intrigues me, as the Doctrine and Covenants specifically addresses Shaker doctrine as false.
But the instability of Martin Harris himself makes his stable testimony of one particular thing especially interesting. Not that I believe he was truly unstable if faith, but sought for the supernatural and was ready to accept many things.
But you must bear several things in mind: the author of that pdf believes my church is wrong and is anxious to prove so. When a person believes something, he/she is determined to maintain that belief. If that belief is forcibly changed by seemingly overwhelming evidence (and it takes more than is ever requisite to truly change a mind, simply because of that tendency), the new worldview the person accepts makes it even more difficult to accept that the former view may have actually been right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
In other words, you are more likely to accept evidence that sustain Catholicism as true, while dismissing evidence that it is not. Same for me and Mormonism, same for Puggo and atheism. Some, like Jaitea and CP3S, have actually had their opinions more forcibly changed, so their acceptance of their current view is even stronger now.
That said, when you read through the pdf, you must bear the author's POV in mind. He's not just some ex-Mormon. He's obviously a bit hostile and hurt. "The church I clung to as a child was all al lie! I must expose it for what it is." But have you read the citations of his pdf? Now I'm just guessing because you've read that pdf more thoroughly than I (though I've read plenty of anti-Mormon literature in my time, covering more topics than he has included I'm sure) that the evidence he is using is not all friendly. For instance, those stories about Martin Harris's strange behavior...were they from all friendly sources, hostile sources, or neutral sources? Just as a Mormon might be more willing to tell a fib in order to strengthen others' faith, a hostile non-Mormon, or an ex-Mormon perhaps, would actually be likely to tell a little white lie in order to keep others away from those Mormon devils. Think of how often this happens today, and consider that in the 1800s when absolute historical accuracy wasn't as important as the core message how much more prevalent such practice was.
Let me give an example within the pdf. Martin Harris served as scribe for some time with Joseph Smith. Joseph's wife Emma also served as scribe briefly, but Oliver Cowdery served for the majority of the translation. Not one of them describes the "looking at the stone in the hat" scenario. But David Whitmer did, though no other source corroborates his having been present during the translation. So we actually have various methods of translation described, including the possibility of one that looks a little weird.
http://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation
But the one that looks weirdest is the one that the pdf author latches onto, whether true or not (and it may be) as the genuine and only method of translation, while all others are disregarded. The author's confirmation bias leads him to accept evidence against the church he once loved rather than accept all evidence with equal validity. The fact that he is promoting his opposition means that even if does accept the other methods as possibly true, he will promote the one that he feels will cause the most damage, just like he accuses my church of promoting the more publicly acceptable methods. Note that the above link is actually a link to my church's website because, though my church does promote the untarnished image as much as possible, we do not avoid the less glamorous aspects.
Back to Martin Harris and his reliability. Opponents have attacked him most because they claim some of his comments were less authentic sounding, as he used phrases like having seen the plates with a "spiritual eye." I invite you to read here.
Warbler said:
darth_ender said:
Yes, it does, though it is definitely different in nature.
And I figured out why I thought you were Catholic: because you'd followed the voting for the new Pope so closely and listed the names (now canonized and beatified where appropriate!) that I must have made the assumption and tucked it in the back of my brain.
Although I am not Catholic, the Catholic church does interest me. It has a long history and legacy and was and still is influential over much of Europe and the world. Not to the meant it's list of Popes goes all the way back to Peter the disciple. Also remember that the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, so our histories are linked.
I also did a list of the Kings and Queens of England/UK. But that doesn't make me a citizen of the UK.
A bit snarky reply, don't you think? It just led me to assume. I didn't say it should have made you one. Forgive a man for having a mortal memory.
Mrebo said:
darth_ender said:
Mrebo said:
Ultimately, one does just gotta have faith when it comes to religion. The outstanding question for me is always: okay, well why should I have faith in this or that particular set of beliefs?
When it comes to something like the Garden of Eden being in America, such assertions will not make sense to the many of us who are not Mormons. But it is useful to recognize that every religion has such faith-bound elements that are not supported (and sometimes even contradicted by) known facts. I suspect such a critique of Mormonism might be more pronounced because it is a newer religion with an unusually America-centric slant that many construe as a corruption of Christianity, or as you say "weird."
My question is why have you chosen to put your faith into Mormonism?
I was indeed born into this Church. On my mission, however, I had a great challenge and had to decide if I was willing to believe what I'd been taught or if I was wasting my time. This was in large part where I gained much of my interest in Church history, the critiques of my church which were quite popular in Atlanta, GA, and the faith supporting research that was taking place. As you've said, all religions take a certain amount of faith in spite of what may not seem logical. As mortals, we often forget that our understanding is limited, and we are often surprised when what was once thought impossible is in fact inevitable. Sometimes you have to suspend what you don't understand at the present till an answer comes along later.
It often feels like there is a Catch-22 when it comes to discussing religion. When a person goes scratching below the surface from a logical but non-believing viewpoint, he may find all kinds of apparent problems. It's not that the religion can't offer an answer, but the answer is unsatisfying in the absence of faith. Or the non-believer can say, "but what about secular facts A, B, C, and D?" Maybe those facts aren't all relevant or maybe the religious person believes that they're not all facts. And then there is only argument (much of it stupid, tbh).
Alternatively, one might express an honest interest from a more or less academic viewpoint, wishing to understand another's beliefs and weigh them silently. If he ends up being persuaded, fine, but he isn't really engaging or trying to believe, as he may not be dissuaded accepting at least the possibility of certain secular facts. And then, is that person merely humoring the believer?
Humor me all you like. Most posters here probably do that a bit. But I wanted this to be a pretty candid thread, and I only ask for respect. I'm pretty keen when posters here are actually trying to be clever and underhanded, but I don't worry about those who might clumsily step on toes. I want honest inquiry, and those who offer it don't have to worry about offending me.
thejediknighthusezni said:
^^If you can read what Jesus had to say about the rebellious and the afterlife and come away with the notion that they will be cool, without the assistance of serious drugs, I will concede your point in this instance.
I'm already taking too much time on this site today, as I have a lot to do this morning (slept for 14 hours straight after sleeping only one hour in 48 or so). Not everyone who doesn't fully accept Christ's gospel is rebellious. Is the Chinese pauper who has never heard of Jesus Christ, yet lived a noble life deserving of heaven? Is the Protestant who simply did not let LDS missionaries through his door rebellious(remember, this is assuming my church is true)? If I know God, I know he loves his children and wants to give as many an opportunity as possible.
Or did Christ simply preach to those in prison as an opportunity to brag?
timdiggerm said:
I should be better at reading this thread. Sorry guys.
What Ric said. But no problem. I certainly don't expect everyone to read every page of my thread.
Tobar said:
You know what I find hurtful. That once my ancestors were millions strong across the land. That children are taught they were a primitive people when in fact they were an advanced culture with large cities. That tamed the land and created corn. That over 90% were wiped out by european diseases. That they were slowly subjugated and segregated to reservations. That whenever the question of who discovered America is brought up, the answer is either a sadistic psychopath or a viking and never the people WHO WERE ALREADY HERE.
That your prophet wrote that to have white skin was a blessing and that those with dark skin were cursed. That your church didn't bother to renounce this until last December! That's what I find hurtful.
My avatar was my attempt to try and humor myself when contemplating on these things.
I appreciate you changing your avatar, as the attempt at humor appeared to be more of an attempt to paint me a racist. My part Peruvian (and thus part Native American) wife would be very hurt if she found out.
Since I never seem to have time to really sit down and type all references or find all the citations I'd always hope to use, I can refer you to this article. It is far easier to read than what I had linked to before, and it offers plenty of citation.
Just bear in mind that The Book of Mormon speaks very highly of the Lamanites throughout its pages, and you cannot judge the attitudes of its authors (or its author, since almost everyone who reads this thread assumes only one) to be racist in nature based on a few passages. When read in broader context, it's clearly quite favorable towards the Lamanites.
This is evidenced especially by the fact that the fastest growing racial/ethnic demographic group within my church is among the Latin American crowd, the majority of whom have Native American blood, and those who accept the Book of Mormon see themselves as descendants of the Lamanites. Hope this helps and offers a better view of my Church, of Joseph Smith, and of me.
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Post Praetorian said:
Are you happy, as an atheist? Does it content you to so be?
I am extremely glad to have been raised atheist. Our minds and our ability to reason and think for ourselves is an incredible gift, and a lot of religion seems to be about stifling critical inquiry and just accepting "truth" without question. That to me is a waste of a great gift.
^This is probably among the most ignorant, yet most frequent beliefs of atheists today. Many of the greatest minds in history have been religious, and the greatest discoveries and theories developed by the pious. I'd venture to say without shame, regardless of how arrogant it sounds, that I have a greater capacity to reason than most of this forum here. Am I the most intelligent? Likely not. Am I the most learned? Assuredly not. But I have delved into study and self-examination, into philosophy and refinement of understanding like no one I've met. I am willing to refine my theories, to question my beliefs, to examine different angles, and to entertain and acceptable seemingly contradicting possibilities with equal validity better than anyone I know. I consider my mind very gifted in this regard, and I find the snobbishness of today's Google atheists so tiresome aggravating that I can hardly describe it.
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Religion/topic/13159/page/17/
Darth Id said:
With a story by George Lucas...and executive produced by George Lucas...
Blech! Double blech!
The man can't even put his shoes on correctly, right?
And to this day, I love Willow.
dclarkg said:
darth_ender said:
This could be retitled "Ask the Weak Atheist Anything," and then we would have a real good use for it.
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Weak-Atheist-Thread/topic/14351/
Silly joke where I probably am the only one who laughed.
This could be retitled "Ask the Weak Atheist Anything," and then we would have a real good use for it.
Obviously I've been very tied up. Can't respond to everything. But instead of just giving Tobar links, I will try to take the time to give good answers here for him and all to read that would clarify a commonly misportrayed aspect of the Book of Mormon. Just in the short term, you'd be amazed at how often the Lamanites are portrayed as the better of the two major peoples, how often Lamanites are promised great blessings, how the book says it specifically is addressed to them, how frequently the book asserts that all are alike unto God regardless of race. I will give citations when I can.
P*7lm check
That is your right. I'm sorry it hurts. I'm sorry you also misunderstand our teachings and instead had apparently asked questions after you already had answers that you felt were accurate. I gave you links. I encourage you to try them. You'd be surprised at the different points of view one might get when choosing between friendly sources and hostile sources.
Probably I find the avatar switching most hurtful, as it appears to be an attempt to broadcast my religion's insensitivity. I encourage you to do more reading, then we can resume this discussion, Tobar.
Lx9jk
How much of that link did you read and how prepared were you to answer this way regardless of my reply to your previous question?
"Nope, not yet," Biggs told the others. "Hold on, Luke. I'll be right
there."
A thin, mechanical voice sounded over the speakers. "Hang on, Artoo,
hang on!" Back at the temple headquarters, Threepio turned away from the
curious human faces which had turned to stare at him.
As Luke soared high above the station another X-wing swung in close to
him. He recognized Wedge's ship and began hunting around anxiously for his
friend.
"We're goin' in, Biggs-join up. Biggs, are you all right? Biggs!" There
was no sign of the other fighter. "Wedge, do you see him anywhere?"
Within the transparent canopy of the fighter bobbing close by, a
helmeted head shook slowly. "Nothing," Wedge told him over the communicator.
"Wait a little longer. He'll show."
Luke looked around, worried, studied several instruments, then came to
a decision. "We can't wait; we've got to go now. I don't think he made it."
"Hey, you guys," a cheerful voice demanded to know, "what are you
waiting for?"
Luke turned sharply to his right, in time to see another ship racing
past and slowing slightly ahead of him. "Don't ever give up on old Biggs,"
the intercom directed as the figure in the X-wing ahead looked back at them.
Within the central control room of the battle station, a harried
officer rushed up to a figure studying the great battle screen and waved a
handful of printouts at him.
"Sir, we've completed an analysis of their attack plan. There is a
danger. Should we break off the engagement or make plans to evacuate? Your
ship is standing by."
Governor Tarkin turned an incredulous gaze on the officer, who shrank
back. "Evacuate!" he roared. "At our moment of triumph? We are about to
destroy the last remnants of the Alliance, and you call for evacuation? You
overestimate their chances badly... Now, get out!"
Overwhelmed by the Governor's fury, the subdued officer turned and
retreated from the room.
"We're going in," Luke declared as he commenced his dive toward the
surface. Wedge and Biggs followed just aft.
"Let's go-Luke," a voice he had heard before sounded inside his head.
Again he tapped his helmet and looked around. It sounded as if the speaker
were standing just behind him. But there was nothing, only silent metal and
nonverbal instrumentation. Puzzled, Luke turned back to his controls.
Once more, energy bolts reached out for them, passing harmlessly on
both sides as the surface of the battle station charged up into his face.
But the defensive fire wasn't the cause of the renewed trembling Luke
suddenly experienced. Several critical gauges were beginning their swing
back into the danger zone again.
He leaned toward the pickup. "Artoo, those stabilizing elements must
have broken loose again. See if you can't lock it back down-I've got to have
full control."
Ignoring the bumpy ride, the energy beams and explosions lighting space
around him, the little robot moved to repair the damage.
Additional, tireless explosions continued to buffet the three fighters
as they dropped into the trench. Biggs and Wedge dropped behind to cover for
Luke as he reached to pull down the targeting visor.
For the second time a peculiar hesitation swept through him. His hand
was slower yet as he finally pulled the device down in front of his eyes,
almost as if the nerves were in conflict with one another. As expected, the
energy beams stopped as if on signal and he was barreling down the trench
unchallenged.
"Here we go again," Wedge declared as he spotted three Imperial
fighters dropping down on them.
Biggs and Wedge began crossing behind Luke, trying to draw the coming
fire away from him and confuse their pursuers. One TIE fighter ignored the
maneuvers, continuing to gain inexorably on the rebel ships.
Luke stared into the targeting device-then reached up slowly to move it
aside. For a long minute he pondered the deactivated instrument, staring at
it as if hypnotized. Then he slid it sharply back in front of his face and
studied the tiny screen as it displayed the shifting relationship of the
X-wing to the nearing exhaust port.
"Hurry, Luke," Biggs called out as he wrenched his ship in time to
narrowly avoid a powerful beam. They're coming in faster this time. We can't
hold them much longer."
With inhuman precision, Darth Vader depressed the fire control of his
fighter again. A loud, desperate shout sounded over the speakers, blending
into a final agonized scream of flesh and metal as Biggs's fighter burst
into a billion glowing splinters that rained down on the bottom of the
trench.
Wedge heard the explosion over his speakers and hunted frantically
behind him for the trailing enemy ships. "We lost Biggs," he yelled toward
his own pickup.
Luke didn't reply immediately. His eyes were watering, and he angrily
wiped them clear. They were blurring his view of the targeting readout.
"We're a couple of shooting stars, Biggs," he whispered huskily, "and
we'll never be stopped." His ship rocked slightly from a near miss and he
directed his words to his remaining wingman, biting down hard on the end of
each sentence.
"Close it up, Wedge. You can't do any more good back there. Artoo, try
to give me a little more power on our rear reflectors."
The Artoo unit hurried to comply as Wedge pulled up alongside Luke's
ship. The trailing TIE fighters also increased their speed.
"I'm on the leader," Vader informed his soldiers. "Take the other one."
Luke flew just in front of Wedge, slightly to port side. Energy bolts
from the pursuing Imperials began to streak close about them. Both men
crossed each other's path repeatedly, striving to present as confusing a
target as possible.
Wedge was fighting with his controls when several small flashes and
sparks lit his control board. One small panel exploded, leaving molten slag
behind. Somehow he managed to retain control of the ship.
"I've got a bad malfunction, Luke. I can't stay with you."
"Okay, Wedge, get clear."
Wedge mumbled a heartfelt "Sorry" and peeled up out of the trench.
Vader, concentrating his attention on the one ship remaining before
him, fired.
Luke didn't see the near-lethal explosion which burst close behind him.
Nor did he have time to examine the smoking shell of twisted metal which now
rode alongside one engine. The arms went limp on the little droid.
All three TIE fighters continued to chase the remaining X-wing down the
trench. It was only a matter of moments before one of them caught the
bobbing fighter with a crippling burst. Except now there were only two
Imperials pursuing. The third had become an expanding cylinder of
decomposing debris, bits and pieces of which slammed into the walls of the
canyon.
Vader's remaining wingman looked around in panic for the source of the
attack. The same distortion fields that confused rebel instrumentation now
did likewise to the two TIE fighters.
Only when the freighter fully eclipsed the sun forward did the new
threat become visible. It was a Corellian transport, far larger than any
fighter, and it was diving directly at the trench. But it didn't move
precisely like a freighter, somehow.
Whoever was piloting that vehicle must have been unconscious or out of
his mind, the wingman decided. Wildly he adjusted controls in an attempt to
avoid the anticipated collision. The freighter swept by just overhead, but
in missing it the wingman slid too far to one side.
A small explosion followed as two huge fins of the paralleling TIE
fighters intersected. Screaming uselessly into his pickup, the wing man
fluttered toward the near trench wall. He never touched it, his ship
erupting in flame before contact.
To the other side, Darth Vader's fighter began spinning helplessly.
Unimpressed by the Dark Lord's desperate glower, various controls and
instruments gave back readings which were brutally truthful. Completely out
of control, the tiny ship continued spinning in the opposite direction from
the destroyed wingman-out into the endless reaches of deep space.
Whoever was at the controls of the supple freighter was neither
unconscious nor insane-well, perhaps slightly touched, but fully in command
nonetheless. It soared high above the trench, turning to run protectively
above Luke.
"You're all clear now, kid," a familiar voice informed him. "Now blow
this thing so we can all go home."
This pep talk was followed by a reinforcing grunt which could only have
been produced by a particularly large Wookiee.
Luke looked up through the canopy and smiled. But his smile faded as he
turned back to the targeting visor. There was a tickling inside his head.
"Luke...trust me," the tickle requested, forming words for the third
time. He stared into the targeter. The emergency exhaust port was sliding
toward the firing circle again, as it had once before-when he'd missed. He
hesitated, but only briefly this time, then shoved the targeting screen
aside. Closing his eyes, he appeared to mumble to himself, as if in internal
conversation with something unseen. With the confidence of a blind man in
familiar surroundings, Luke moved a thumb over several controls, then
touched one. Soon after, a concerned voice filled the cockpit from the open
speakers.
"Base One to Blue Five, your targeting device is switched off. What's
wrong?"
"Nothing," Luke murmured, barely audible. "Nothing."
He blinked and cleared his eyes. Had he been asleep? Looking around, he
saw that he was out of the trench and shooting back into open space. A
glance outside showed the familiar shape of Han Solo's ship shadowing him.
Another, at the control board, indicated that he had released his remaining
torpedoes, although he couldn't remember touching the firing stud. Still, he
must have.
The cockpit speakers were alive with excitement. "You did it! You did
it!" Wedge was shouting over and over. "I think they went right in."
"Good shot kid." Solo complimented him, having to raise his voice to be
heard over Chewbacca's unrestrained howling.
Distant, muted rumblings shook Luke's ship, an omen of incipient
success. He must have fired the torpedoes, mustn't he? Gradually he regained
his composure.
"Glad... you were here to see it. Now let's get some distance between
us and that thing before it goes. I hope Wedge was right."
Several X-wings, Y-wings, and one battered-looking freighter
accelerated away from the battle station, racing toward the distant curve of
Yavin.
Behind them small flashes of fading light marked the receding station.
Without warning, something appeared in the sky in place of it which was
brighter than the glowing gas giant, brighter than its far-off sun. For a
few seconds the eternal night became day. No one dared look directly at it.
Not even multiple shields set on high could dim that awesome flare.
Space filled temporarily with trillions of microscopic metal fragments,
propelled past the retreating ships by the liberated energy of a small
artificial sun. The collapsed residue of the battle station would continue
to consume itself for several days, forming for that brief span of time the
most impressive tombstone in this corner of the cosmos.
This and the next post are most useful for what I'm pressing.
"Blue Five to Blue pack," Luke ordered, "let's go!" The three ships
peeled off and plunged toward the trench sector.
Meanwhile Vader finally succeeded in hitting his quarry, a glancing
bolt that nonetheless started small, intense explosions in one engine. Its
R-2 unit scrambled back toward the damaged wing and struggled to repair the
crippled power plant.
"R-2, shut off the main feed to number-one starboard engine," Blue
Leader directed quietly, staring resignedly at instruments which were
running impossibilities. "Hang on tight, this could get rough."
Luke saw that Blue Leader was in trouble. "We're right above you, Blue
Leader," he declared. "Turn to point oh five, and we'll cover for you."
"I've lost my upper starboard engine," came the reply.
"We'll come down for you."
"Negative, negative. Stay there and get set up for your attack run."
"You're sure you're all right?"
"I think so... Stand by for a minute."
Actually, it was somewhat less than a minute before Blue Leader's
gyrating X-wing plowed into the surface of the station.
Luke watched the huge explosion dissipate below him, knowing without
question its cause, sensing fully for the first time the helplessness of his
situation. "We just lost Blue Leader," he murmured absently, not
particularly caring if his mike picked up the somber announcement.
On Yavin Four, Leia Organa rose from her chair and nervously began
pacing the room. Normally perfect nails were now jagged and uneven from
nervous chewing. It was the only indication of physical unease. The anxiety
visible in her expression was far more revealing of her feelings, an anxiety
and worry that filled the war room on the announcement of Blue Leader's
death.
"Can they go on?" she finally asked Dodonna.
The general replied with gentle resolve. "They must."
"But we've lost so many. Without Blue or Red Leader, how will they
regroup?"
Dodonna was about to reply, but held his words as more critical ones
sounded over the speakers.
"Close it up, Wedge," Luke was saying, thousands of kilometers away.
"Biggs, where are you?"
"Coming in right behind you."
Wedge replied soon after. "Okay. Boss, we're in position."
Dodonna's gaze went to Leia. He looked concerned.
The three X-wings moved close together high above the battle station's
surface. Luke studied his instruments and fought irritably with one control
that appeared to be malfunctioning.
Someone's voice sounded in his ears. It was a young-old voice, a
familiar voice: calm, content, confident, and reassuring-a voice he had
listened to intently on the desert of Tatooine and in the guts of the
station below, once upon a time.
"Trust your feelings, Luke," was all the Kenobi-like voice said.
Luke tapped his helmet, unsure whether he had heard anything or not.
This was no time for introspection. The steely horizon of the station tilted
behind him.
"Wedge, Biggs, we're going in," he told his wingmen. "We'll go in full
speed. Never mind finding the trench and then accelerating. Maybe that will
keep those fighters far enough behind us."
"We'll stay far enough back to cover you," Biggs declared. "At that
speed will you be able to pull out in time?"
"Are you kidding?" Luke sneered playfully as they began their dive
toward the surface. "It'll be just like BeggarsCanyon back home."
"I'm right with you, Boss," noted Wedge, emphasizing the title for the
first time. "Let's go..."
At high speed the three slim fighters charged the glowing surface,
pulling out after the last moment. Luke skimmed so close over the station
hull that the tip of one wing grazed a protruding antenna, sending metal
splinters flying. Instantly they were enveloped in a meshwork of energy
bolts and explosive projectiles. It intensified as they dropped down into
the trench.
"We seem to have upset them," Biggs chortled, treating the deadly
display of energy as though it were all a show being put on for their
amusement.
"This is fine," Luke commented, surprised at the clear view ahead. "I
can see everything."
Wedge wasn't quite as confident as he studied his own readouts. "My
scope shows the tower, but I can't make out the exhaust port. It must be
awfully small. Are you sure the computer can target it?"
"It better," Biggs muttered.
Luke didn't offer an evaluation-he was too busy holding a course
through the turbulence produced by exploding bolts. Then, as if on command,
the defensive fire ceased. He glanced around and up for signs of the
expected TIE fighters, but saw nothing.
His hand went to drop the targeting visor into position, and for just a
moment he hesitated. Then he swung it down in front of his eyes. "Watch
yourselves," he ordered his companions.
"What about the tower?" Wedge asked worriedly.
"You worry about those fighters," Luke snapped. "I'll worry about the
tower."
They rushed on, closing on the target every second. Wedge stared
upward, and his gaze suddenly froze. "Here they come-oh point three."
Vader was setting his controls when one of his wingmen broke attack
silence. "They're making their approach too fast-they'll never get out in
time."
"Stay with them," Vader commanded.
"They're going too fast to get a fix," his other pilot announced with
certainty.
Vader studied several readouts and found that his sensors confirmed the
other estimates. "They'll still have to slow down before they reach that
tower."
Luke contemplated the view in his targeting visor. "Almost home."
Seconds passed and the twin circlets achieved congruence. His finger
convulsed on the firing control. "Torpedoes away! Pull up, pull up."
Two powerful explosions rocked the trench, striking harmlessly far to
one side of the minute opening. Three TIE fighters shot out of the rapidly
dissipating fireball, closing on the retreating rebels. "Take them," Vader
ordered softly.
Luke detected the pursuit at the same time as his companions. "Wedge,
Biggs, split up-it's the only way we'll shake them."
The three ships dropped toward the station, then abruptly raced off in
three different directions. All three TIE fighters turned and followed Luke.
Vader fired on the crazily dodging ship, missed, and frowned to
himself. "The Force is strong with this one. Strange. I'll take him myself."
Luke darted between defensive towers and wove a tight path around
projecting docking bays, all to no avail. A single remaining TIE fighter
stayed close behind. An energy bolt nicked one wing, close by an engine. It
started to spark irregularly, threateningly. Luke fought to compensate and
retain full control.
Still trying to shake his persistent assailant, he dropped back into a
trench again. "I'm hit," he announced, "but not bad. Artoo, see what you can
do with it."
The tiny droid unlocked himself and moved to work on the damaged engine
as energy bolts flashed by dangerously close. "Hang on back there," Luke
counseled the Artoo unit as he worked a path around projecting towers, the
fighter spinning and twisting tightly through the topography of the station.
Fire remained intense as Luke randomly changed direction and speed. A
series of indicators on the control panel slowly changed color; three vital
gauges relaxed and returned to where they belonged.
"I think you've got it, Artoo," Luke told him gratefully. "I
think-there, that's it. Just try to lock it down so it can't work loose
again."
Artoo beeped in reply while Luke studied the whirling panorama behind
and above them. "I think we've lost those fighters, too. Blue group, this is
Blue Five. Are you clear?" He manipulated several controls and the X-wing
shot out of the trench, still followed by emplacement fire.
"I'm up here waiting, Boss," Wedge announced from his position high
above the station. "I can't see you."
"I'm on my way. Blue Three, are you clear? Biggs?"
"I've had some trouble," his friend explained, "but I think I lost
him."
Something showed again, damnably, on Biggs's screen. A glance behind
showed the TIE fighter that had been chasing him for the past several
minutes dropping in once more behind him. He swung down toward the station
again.
