brimforge

=> "You assume too much, master Jedi ..." ;-)

Well, for those who dislike "Clone Wars" or "Rebels", at least they do get right, how things in Star Wars should look like, drawing from McQuarrie ...

http://www.rebelscum.com/2015-Celebration-Anaheim/Star-Wars-Celebration-Anaheim-2015-Hasbro-Rebels-Ahsoka-Vader/image3.asp

http://www.rebelscum.com/2015-Celebration-Anaheim/Star-Wars-Celebration-Anaheim-2015-Hasbro-Rebels-Ahsoka-Vader/image1.asp

... and even the new movie pulls ideas from early concepts ;-)

So cool to be a Star Wars fan - first we got the new teaser for "The Force Awakens", now the long awaited "Battlefront" :-)

speaking of which, the ground battle on Endor (or it's moon) is rather heavy, showing what in RotJ was kind of missing - meaning less Ewoks, more Rebels!

https://youtu.be/ZwWLns7-xN8

hm, I thought there would be more information from the original "script" used in the pages - the idea is not to use it really as actual "backstory".

but maybe more background, that could be used to buff the PTs, especially concerning things like the "prophecy" ?

so it seems "Dawn of the Jedi" or the excellent "Tales of the Jedi" (and following "Sith Wars") would be better candidates to draw ideas from ...

So to throw another idea into the ring ...

some time ago I asked if anybody has read "the Star Wars" comic - seems there is a bit of the prophecy in this concept-based book - since the main source was at one point the "journal of the Whills", before it became the family saga of the Skywalkers.

anyway, in mentioned comic/backstory, "The Skywalker" is refered something like the "Dune messiah" - so we could tie up another thought some had here, to not name Anakin, and leaving his full name for the OT ...

bridging this to an idea how to name characters, because I find the name "Anakin" somewhat strange, in contrast to "(Ben) Obi-Wan Kenobi" - it would be better if Jedi had similar name-combinations or "titles" (not unlike the Sith, if one keeps "Darth" as this)

maybe "Anakin" could turn into "Ana-Kin" or "Ani-Kin" (other combinations like "Ana-Kheen"?)

I am all in for "Cad Bane" - he is the "Lee Van Cleef" to the "Clint Eastwood", that Boba Fett was (or kind of should be ...)

my point was only, that if one keeps a plot around "killing senators", that should not all be just one guy (aka "Jango Fett" or "Zam Wesell"), the galaxy is big enough for the competition and we saw some guys who could appear ;-)

and yes, Aura Sing, though she got more "screentime" in Clone Wars, was not even a support character, she was background in Episode1 (marketing told us another story ...)

@brash

CW starts off aimed at kids, but in later seasons turns to the main audience: teenagers (like OT was!)

There is always room for more(!) bounty hunters, why should there be only one or two - see ESB, there were in fact nearly 10, ok not all had much screentime, but I think if one finds guys with well designed costumes, additional scenes can be inserted for a more logical plot ...

speaking of which, I too watched some TV lately, and again they showed the Indiana trilogy - taking me back to my idea/wish to alter the opending of RotJ and maybe that of Episode1:

every Indy movie has this pre-story (very like James Bond) - some in direct connection to the main-plot or just to introduce a new character (eg: Beloq)

so I would make the Jabba Palace/Han Rescue this sort of "mini" movie, before we really head to the real plot (and time pacing)

it could have happened some time before and Han is still unsure of his place and feelings (some kind of trauma), making him an uncertain ally - on the other hand we got Luke, he has finished his training, but will he withstand the temptation of the Dark Side or follow his fathers path?

for Episode1 a pre-story would be interesting too, because we don't have flashbacks in SW and told-historical events only, it would make sense, for the audience, to show a glimpse of what was before ...

ray_afraid said:

brimforge said:

(not sure if Fett is too much a fan-service)

 He looks right into the camera! He might as well pull his helmet back and wink!

The only characters to look directly into the camera are SE additions. Bobba, the harry big-mouth signing guy and Snootles.
And it's stupid every time.

 I was questioning Fett's appearance as a whole in that scene - not just him looking through the 4th wall (which is enough to cut that moment!)

a "singer" looking straight into the camera, as if the viewer is part of the audience, is ok for me - just not the SE creatures ...

Han's character was bent down in the SE and following (official) edits - and all of them are ridiculous, because it's self-defense, he isn't cold-blooded (as Lucas in one interview "explained")

keeping both scenes makes only sense, if Jabba has new info - so choose between one or alter both ?

That would be an ideal outcome, if both scenes are corrected before ...

=> Solo shoots first!

and NO stepping on Jabba's tail (not sure if Fett is too much a fan-service)

So he really did build "half cave set" !? O.O

ok, now this runs more smoothly ;-)

and yes, a short clip of Fett pushing some buttons would add to the sequence

but in the end, I think Adywan will keep the cinematic cut or do something else ...

at least it's a nice alternative for other editors

I think it is not so much the "explanation", but more to really word it out - we only got an interpretation from Mace when he asked: "is the boy, the one, who will bring balance to the Force?"

so the idea to have "son of suns" and "balance of the Force" is a good start - both can be read in different ways, but are quite specific ...

in greek mythology there are many interesting prophecies, all in hindsight pointing to the outcome, only problem, they could have gone the other way too ;-)

I tend towards a dual-meaning text, not so much for a self-fullfilling prophecy (like the one Oedipus father got) - something along Kroesus, whom was foretold if he would cross the border, he will destroy an empire (infact, which was his own ...)

Fans of "300" will know the other famous warnings/counsels (eg: "protect Athens with wooden walls ...")

It doesn't really be an apocalyptic record - meaning an end of world, but as the translation says "revelation" or unshroud/veil (hm, Lucas tried bits here with "shroud of darkness" ...) - the "balance" can be the turning point, only who and what this "balance" really means should stay obscure.

Maybe, and here is one I see with great potential, we got so many clues already in place, only to be connected: the Gilgamesh mythos.

why? because it is about "immortality" - or the quest to find it ... and this is a part of OT and PT (in some extend).

so the prophecy could speak of mastering evil/death, becoming one with the Force (not sure if that balances anything) - it would appeal to both sides (Jedi & Sith), to find out if it was true ...

Bingowings said:

Thanks.

The general idea was that the two new characters would be the Rosencrantz & Guildenstern of the PT.

They would have a small cameo scene in each film reflecting the situation that the whole order is in.

The old teacher would be killed by Vader (the final lesson, how to die) and his pupil would die deleting Dagobah from the archive records saving a certain Jedi Master.

 hm, like in RotJ:R, some scenes with "normal people" (other rebels, pilots), not just our heroes, would be welcomed ...

in OT 3PO and R2 are sort of "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern", they don't distract from the main story, but have their little own adventure ;-)

why they didn't reprise this from start, is up to Lucas, who thought he needed to "explain" everything and in the end confused much ...

so maybe new extras giving insight, to what and where (the temple tour could be shown through them - but I would restrict it to just one level, maybe show council and masters in Episode1, students and other rooms in following movies) was happening, could add to the tapestry and again bridge plot holes.

Ok, much to take in - and also interesting to see we think very alike :-)

as a comic reader, the first new concept that jumped my eyes then, where the holocrons - a perfect media to solve some problems, as seen in the comics they can be used to train and learn, but they are more a source of information from masters long gone ...

and here comes the bonus: not only Jedi had them, the Sith also used this device to collect wisdom and share it with their kin - there were times when knowledge could have gone extinct and lost forever, therefore the data crystals are a fine thing to have ;-)

when I saw the library in Episode2, my hopes were high, we would see the odd holo lying around or even be used by students - but no.

not in the shadow of cutting a scene like "the lost 20" - another part which was resurrected in "Clone Wars" and would have given the PT more soul and meaning ...

So the prophecy: really why must it be a Jedi has given it?

I always see and hear Yoda speaking: "the future is hard to see and in motion it is" - therefore the whole concept is flawed anyway

This could be either A) it was a Sith (lord) who "wrote" it down and over the ages it was forgotten about and rediscovered, later misquoted ...

B) a force-user (or maybe "Jedi") like Pythia (say "Oracle of Delphi") - but the problem with prophecy is, that is is not clear and can be interpreted in many ways ...

And yes, those two ideas can be combined and in the end we could have a holocron with the prophecy (if one comes up with an ambivalent text, that works ...) spoken to the audience, so this closes one gaping hole ;-)

the parallels to Dune are many, but Lucas wasn't just ripping that off - too bad the idea of the "chosen one" was a central concept in Dune, that isn't as clean to install in Star Wars (see midichlorians!)

again, here are potential pitfalls, because if one wants to build Anakin as the "chosen one", there always will be the question, why Luke is the "new hope" - if Anakin is to be the "saviour"?

Twist of fate would be, Anakin being the "chosen one" the Sith saw coming, the Jedi misread the prophecy and took it for theirs, in the end the "balance" was brought back with Luke, who is not "blind" like his Jedi masters and resisted the temptation, his father fell to ...

a cool thing would be, for us hearing the prophecy in connection with events directly before or afterwards, giving the impression it really was foretold, but only later to turn in other directions, like when one part comes true in Episode1, this part in Episode2 would take another meaning.

The reception and discussion about the prophecy intrigues me, because if one states it was already fullfilled long ago (saying the quote was given in an early age of Jedi/Sith), others see it still open or not relevant - some plotpoints can be drawn from this ...

for the notion, the Sith were  the source (not as the Jedi offspring) and later came Jedi from them - I think to have read, that before there were Jedi or Sith, there were only force-users without any order (they came later) - so the hint to "Stargate" is a nice one, because the Sith did suppress civilations and ruled large parts of the known galaxy, before they were overthrown (and other wars between them took place).

^This!

I am a BIG fan of McQuarries art, it should have been used more in the PT - well, at least it got recognition in "Clone Wars" and "Rebels" ...

well, before Lucasfilm & Co gave us many books and comics to wrap our minds around, there only were some sources, which held some information on what and why in the GFFA ...

too bad, the PT never laid out what was before the (Star Wars) saga - in ANH "Clone Wars" was enough for starting the new adventure, but if you want a bigger picture/galaxy, then there should be more legend/lore to be told - Episode 1 could have started with a prologue similar to the one from Dune ;-)

the conflict Jedi VS Sith is well documented in books, games and comics - so I find it rather flat to just say: They are the bad guys, because they wear black robes and wield red sabers, and therefore we are enemies.

It is not  so much, that I didn't understand, I just heard it as a repeated point of critic: the cause of this conflict isn't clear. (maybe because the virtue of the Jedi isn't that shining and they seem to be all just force-users)

as for the "backstories" there could have been some prelude, though I did like what was told in Episode 3, but that was too late in the game and just a bait anyway ...

ideas for a reason on why Jedi and Sith battle each other for millennia, can be found in many stories (real/fictional) - I stumbled upon "18 days", which is a fine example of what I have in mind - brothers against brothers (or relatives in general), both sides not really evil, but different goals and views.

hm, it would get more tension, if we see Fett checking the status on the carbonite, like Lando did before, then the viewer could hope our heroes are just in time to rescue Han ...

but only showing the block, well it isn't that meaningful, not sure how it was scripted, so maybe there is something one editor likes to try (see above)

I did a little thinking lately ... as in most conversations the Jedi in PT seem rather bad people, at least for the casual viewer, they don't do much good in saving the universe or single persons (Shmi, Padme ...)

So I thought, why don't turn the PT around? this idea comes from the fact, we got this "Godfather" montage, where Palpatine gets rid off his enemies: the Jedi.

maybe the PT could be a better trilogy if it was about him: "Sidious" - his quest for domination and his revenge (another thing many like to point out, what the Sith want "revenge" for?)

I do believe many like stories like "Breaking Bad", "Sopranos" or "Boardwalk Empire" - so we could follow this ambitious senator (the parallels to a roman emperor are easy to see) - yes he could think he does "good", but in reality his lust for power divides the galaxy ...

Even the "revenge" part could be better than "because they killed other Sith" - why don't we make it personal? maybe the Jedi killed his sister or spouse? (then we would have a bait for Anakin, for his turning)

Too dark or too ambiguous?

So after I watched this new updated clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_CP4SuoTU

which is an hommage to the great videogame TIE Fighter (also liked to play X-Wing back then) - too bad the music and sound effects are a little off

this preview with better audio shows what could be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU 

Well, the idea I have is to start RotJ with Luke on Dagobah and then switching to a location in space, where a rebel fleet is intercepted by imperials (or it could be otherwise, so as to why and how later the plans/information got into their hands).

It would show, there is still war and maybe how the balance has shifted, this are things in the original not so clear shown, the rebel fleet seemed very small and not fit to attack anything bigger (but at this time, if we take into account the rebellion grew from movie to movie - a significant part of the galaxy should stand against the empire)

Later the focus could shift again to a slow and more dialogue scene, maybe on Coruscant or "Endor" - from there the plot could go to whatever possible way ...

Even if Jabba is a character, who initially was in Star Wars, the side-plot somehow distracts from the main goal: to end the civil war.

the palace adventure alone would be worth a film, if made in a plausible form ;-)

so it is a thing that should either be like in tv-shows today (or James Bond movie)  the socalled "cold open" or leave it in shadows like Han's quote from ESB, when he spoke to Leia about his encounter on Ord Mantell ...

I rather start off with Luke on Dagobah, finishing his training, Yoda passing on the flame, when he has a vision of the future (maybe a talk with Obi-Wan) - THEN he could go and save his friends, this time, Luke is ready!

Boba Fett is not as important to the plot as some like to have him, that's why we got some bad stuff in the PT - so better fix it here and keep his memory clean, in an Sergio Leone way!

This thread is "unofficial", so no word from Adywan on what he has in his cards yet, he could change his mind on a many things he told some time ago, so the game is still open and even if he has another vision for his edit, THIS thread and ideas could help other editors to make their vision a better one, so please be more open to strange ideas and don't shoot with cannons at pigeons ;-)

Hm, having the deaths of Yoda, Vader and the Emperor, is a closing of the old order (republic/Jedi/Sith), Luke being the new generation and beginning with his sister ...

Fett should either be not in the movie at all or have a similar role he had in ESB - as one suggested, he could give the plans/information to the rebel spies ;-)

the Jabba rollercoaster is a thing to reconsider - from start to end - yeah, some don't want to change "important" events, but some pointed out, we need "things that matter" ...

hehe, I somehow imagine the "blow-up" scene would have an extreme effect if used in ANH - after Alderaan destruction, maybe as a interlude to Obi-Wan having his "breakdown" ...

well, on how to end RotJ: it depends, honestly if one wants to just do a SE of the OT, it would look different than a "saga ending" (meaning PT+OT) *

I like the open-end one, because it leaves space for the ST (if one likes to watch them afterwards and one edit has the "canon" intact)

* that would look a little like "Hobbit + LotR" combined, with a grand opening and an epilogue (to leave the GFFA for future generations)

not sure if another "zoom" through the galaxy is that fitting (having the end of MiB in mind), it doesn't really sit well with SW ?

BUT I like the idea of Fett being a last picture (or after credits), like was in "Flash Gordon" ;-)

... in a galaxy not so far away a gifted and resourceful editor has some aces up his sleeves!

And that, is MAGIC ;-)

brash_stryker said:

nightstalkerpoet said:

http://picosong.com/2rHm/

 ......huh?

 ok, I thought something was under my radar ;-)

well, "Vader" having a more mechanical voice would be fine

BUT never never ever again please use that dialogue and this scene in THAT combination ... it almost ruined Vader (maybe did the "NO!" included on the bluray though)

.Mac. said:

That all said, I do agree that there has to be leeway for some exceptions to be made because of how ridiculous certain points of the film can be; omitting it may not be an option either since it's integral to the plot, and what's done is done so we have to work with what's there. What I have in mind is the Han rescue plan ;) This needs to somehow make "better" sense and be more tolerable, which can partly be "improved" by tweaking the opening crawl and completely omitting Leia ever bringing in Chewie (some good moments lost, sure, but she should already be inside in disguise just as Lando is when the droids arrive, both learning the layout of the palace and soon making the plan to get every friend out, and Chewie has already been captured by some other way). When Han first sees Chewie, that's when we do also. As he can begin to sense the foil in the plan through the force, Luke sends the two droids, merely as a distraction, to buy himself extra time before he can personally arrive there (he was off elsewhere doing things integral towards his Jedi self-training). Not the best, but it is an improvement with what we got. I guess I got side-tracked and off point :)

well, until we get an official RotJ:R thread, this is a place to drop "suggestions", not necessary a must-do list for Adywan, more of a brainstorming for all edits (that want to improve the saga) :-)

yeah, I wouldn't cut or throw out good parts or scenes that work, but like in original movie making, not every idea gets into the final print, some nice things get cut and end in the "bonus" - so when a better plot comes up I think, most will take that and run with it, than stick with "Plan A" and frown every time they see it ...

As for "Jabbas Palace": it really shouldn't be Lukes plan after all, maybe Leia got impatient and like him before tried to rescue her boyfriend - Chewie and Lando as a recon-team would cement the dialogue C3PO has with R2 (if kept) - Luke should finish his training, Yoda dies, THEN he is on his way to save his friends and later the galaxy ;-)

If we keep only things that "matter", the movie will be around 1 hour max - I am not a fan of the new musical number, it was too "loud" - the old had some magic, as it came from a place, where dragons, wizards and knights traversed castles (with disco balls) - so a "mix" out of both (if that is possible) or a new version (one needs to decide if cgi or puppets) could be a plus ...

Not sure what you mean by "lore" ? as Lucas himself didn't know that ;-)