adywan

As this has now been given its own thread its probably best that i place my reply to your scaling in here:

adywan said:

OK, i have to put the debate about scales to rest now. Forget about the so called sizes of ships that are documented because many are just so wrong. The scale of the Lambda shuttle in the ROTJ opening , which seems to be the basis of the scale, is wrong. See the pics below:

1:- taken from the pic you posted, savmagoett,  of the scale between a human and the shuttle. Now the interior of the bridge and its windows is the same size for the Executor as it is for the stadestroyers. But in the models they only added the correct domed outside of the bridge to the executor. There is one stardestroyer model that has the domed bridge but the scale for that would have made the stardestroyers bridges almost 3x the size of the Executors one. Now the Towers of the stardestroyers and the Executor are exactly the same size so we can use the Executor tower with the domed bridge for the comparison. As you can see the scale of the human is the correct scale with the bridge.

2:- Now zoomed out so we can see the full tower, which you can see the scale of the shuttle in comparison to the tower.

3:- Full zoom out. The highest points of the zoomed tower perfectly matching the highest points in the full model, which is the centre point of the stardestroyer so the scale is correct. Copied and pasted the shuttle from the zoomed section and placed it next to your shuttles scaling.

4:- the scaling zoomed in. As you can see the correct scale of the shuttle in comparison with the stardestroyer should be a lot smaller than your calculations. So the shuttle in ESB:R will be the correct smaller scale which will fit inside the stardestroyers docking bay

You also have the scaling of the Tantive IV in comparison to the Stardestroyer wrong also. Here's a pic from ANH that demonstrates this:

Now looking at your scaling that i used for image #3 you have the Tantive IV almost as long as the Stardestroyer bay. Well in this shot it isnt even fully inside the bay, as can be clearly seen, yet isn't already a lot smaller in its length than you have it.

I'd like to know what reference you are using for the size of the Stardestroyers and the Tantive IV, especially when you have said that i'm wrong in my scaling even though i have clearly proved the correct scaling of the ships in conjunction to the stardestroyer. Yes, i agree that the Lambda class shuttle is about 20m long, but  are using an online /published reference of the size of the stardestroyer to get your scaling of the shuttle because i would suggest not to take the scaling in the reference books as gospel because many are very wrong. Also using the scale of a human against a ship in a hnagar shot etc to get the correct scale is also not entrely an accurate way to do it. Just look at the scaling problem of the on-set Millennium Falcon in ESB. It's probably around 25% smaler than it should be. And check out this shot of the hangar in ROTJ

Just look how tiny the Millennium Falcon is compared to the people in that matte painting. It should be hell of a lot bigger. It's even smaller than the studio set one in ESB

 

OK, i have to put the debate about scales to rest now. Forget about the so called sizes of ships that are documented because many are just so wrong. The scale of the Lambda shuttle in the ROTJ opening , which seems to be the basis of the scale, is wrong. See the pics below:

1:- taken from the pic you posted, savmagoett,  of the scale between a human and the shuttle. Now the interior of the bridge and its windows is the same size for the Executor as it is for the stadestroyers. But in the models they only added the correct domed outside of the bridge to the executor. There is one stardestroyer model that has the domed bridge but the scale for that would have made the stardestroyers bridges almost 3x the size of the Executors one. Now the Towers of the stardestroyers and the Executor are exactly the same size so we can use the Executor tower with the domed bridge for the comparison. As you can see the scale of the human is the correct scale with the bridge.

2:- Now zoomed out so we can see the full tower, which you can see the scale of the shuttle in comparison to the tower.

3:- Full zoom out. The highest points of the zoomed tower perfectly matching the highest points in the full model, which is the centre point of the stardestroyer so the scale is correct. Copied and pasted the shuttle from the zoomed section and placed it next to your shuttles scaling.

4:- the scaling zoomed in. As you can see the correct scale of the shuttle in comparison with the stardestroyer should be a lot smaller than your calculations. So the shuttle in ESB:R will be the correct smaller scale which will fit inside the stardestroyers docking bay

I hope this has now put a rest to the great scaling debate ;)

Gorilla said:

I'm just curious Adywan, we know that the scale for pretty much every ship is off.  So let's say it were possible to fix all the dimensions, so the Star Wars universe was uniform.  In your opinion, which ship from the OT is the best choice for your primary reference to change all others by?  It's the amateur architect in me, I can't resist a geometry problem. ;)

BarBar Jinkx said:

Got to be the Falcon, or X-wing  they are at 1:1 scale throughout (as is the N1 Starfighter for the PT) so they are the perfect reference point

I'd have to say the Stardestroyers. The bridge sections of the standard & Executor are the same size and we can see the scale of a human against the windows so we can work out scales from that. The Falcon can't really be used because there are two different scales used throughout the movies when we see it against humans and when its flying: The studio set is completely the wrong scale. It's actually too small as can be seen when they are repairing the falcon in ESB and we see Chewie in the cockpit from outside. The cockpit is about 40% smaller than it should be when we see them in the cockpit set. So to match the scale of the cockpit set and the model the studio version should be a lot bigger.

Darth Solo said:

-Although, i go for a DAMN no way on removing the Lambada shutlle from Jedi. Its the most georgious space-ship ever designed, and we get get to see the most of it Endor (i get your way of thinking, but i have seen the the shuttle with an alternitive design, so I urge you to think of some sort of of a work around when you get to Jedi). Thats just messing with the OT too much. But thats another totally seperate project from here.

I have never said i'm getting rid of the Lambda shuttle from ROTJ:R. I'm scrapping the copycat ANH opening and changing the Tydirium to a different design so its noticeably different as its supposed to be a cargo shuttle. The opening is just a rehash of ANH as it stands at the moment. It's one thing i hated when i saw the movie. Jedi really needs to get away from that . And i agree that the opening as it stands makes the Death Star look insignificant when its supposed to be more powerful. The stardestroyer just dwarfs it.

But that is all for the ROTJ:R thread once its created. I need to get through ESB:R first

A little bit of an update:

The Faux fur/ hair i was using for the Wampa just wasn't working. It started to look like a fake Halloween creature. But some good news is that i have managed to buy 3 full hides of snow white real fur. This was bloody expensive, around £350 with postage, but thanks to  Janskeet i was able to afford this, but i'm now cleaned out. Yes i know its an expensive thing to buy just for a puppet, but putting all this time and effort into building it only to have it look terrible with fake fur would have been a waste of both time and money.

I still have a long way to go with the model/ set building but i am completely cleaned out and things are grinding to a halt, so any help would be highly appreciated

Bingowings said:

Ganamae said:

Here is the concept art of the TIE shuttle made for ESB.

 

 Actually that is concept art for the TIE Bomber done for ANH and not picked up until ESB.

Actually it's the concept art for the TIE shuttle for ANH, but the shuttle idea was abandoned in ANH and then used for the TIE bomber in ESB

The thing is, they have taken the scale of the Lambda shuttle from the size of it at the opening of ROTJ, and the scale of the falcon when its docked onto the stardestroyer, which is completely the wrong scale, but there is nothing i can do about that. Even the TIEs in the opening of ROTJ are the wrong scale. By that scale the TIEs cockpits are about the same size as about 2 stardestroyer decks. Are the stardestroyers manned by the Borrowers? lol. The Lambda class shuttle should fit easily in a standard Stardestroyer docking bay. Look at the size of the Stardestroyers bridge and then look at the size of the shuttle in that comparison pic you posted and you can see just how wrong the scale is. And don't forget the Tantive IV was originally going to be the Millennium Falcon and most of the so called official scales of that ship are still based on the original scaling. The scale there compared to the shuttle means that there would be no room for all those corridors. They screwed up the scaling of the Tantive IV yet again in ROTS. For the scale of the Lambda class shuttle just look at when Vader or the Emperor exits. You can see the scale of a human against the shuttle. Now compare that to the size of the Stardestroyers bridge in comparison to a human and you can work out the correct scale of the ships that way. So, yes, the Lambda class shuttle is indeed that small so it can fit into the stardestroyers docking bay

And no, i haven't got confused with the Executors docking bay in the ESB SE scenes.

That whole sequence at the beginning of ROTJ:R will be gone so there will be no problem with the scaling when i get to that.

rpvee said:

adywan said:

But i have proved that there should be no reflections. And i didn't fix every little thing in ANH. There were many things that i left alone because they were insignificant or too quick to even notice

And, no, i haven't made a Yoda puppet

You did say that the tip of Vader's blade would appear for a couple frames.  But hey, whatever, if you don't want to...

No i didn't say anything like that. I even said that there should be no reflections is the part you quoted. There are no shots in that dual where you would see any reflections in the window.

vaderios said:

Ady, any plans for uniform shadow area to executor?

No. The shadow on the executor is very dark so i don't see a need for a change to the stardestroyers shadow

vaderios said:

When yoda after says yes yes the footage is reversed? At least what i saw from ady's clip

No, it's not reversed. Its just the way the puppet moves. If it was reversed then the puppet would start doing the exact same movements t was doing before it turned its head to the point you think is reversed

brash_stryker said:

I think I may have had the most bizarre dream of my entire life.

Ady had asked forum members to attend some kind of workshop, where he unveiled a new Rancor (which was actually a wearable costume) and appealed to us to try it on so he could decide who would be able to cameo in ROTJ:R. Apparently I was just the right build for his vision of the Rancor, so I got the part.

And then it gets a bit hazy. Ady gives me his card (yes, in this dream Ady has a card) and I go to his house to do some filming. However when i get there, I'm faced with a man at Ady's side armed with knives, duct tape and garrote wire. Turns out Ady is some kind of Hannibal Lecter type serial killer.

I escape and I'm on the run from Ady and his henchman, and then it all becomes even weirder. Ady, the other guy, and myself are all suddenly Transformers in an epic city-demolishing Michael Bay (and Angel) worthy battle.

I've got to stop eating cheese before bed.

Wow, i'll have some of what you were having. lol

vaderios said:

Btw ady will you do something about the transparency of the probe's eyes? you can see through them and its like a prop...

Also it appears that there are debri before prob explodes. they are not rocks.

-Angel

I'm pretty sure that they are supposed to be transparent domes for the eyes or they would have made them solid on the model, so no i won't be doing anything to the eyes. And the problem with the mound being covered by debris was fixed a very long time ago

Docta Nick said:

I like the new scenes but there's one thing, Yoda's blink (the one 005 posted) just looks too forced. Blinks should be a quick real fast movement, he looks like he's forcing his eyes to shut for a second. I know it's not finished yet but I think Ady should work on that or tweak it a little more, whatever you wanna do.

I tried to imitate the speed of the puppets blink. If you look at the Needa's death video you can see the real puppet blink on Yoda and its slow. I might be removing the blink from that shot anyway

Jaitea said:

Excellent work there Ady, you've breathed life into the Yoda puppet, words now formed by his mouth, fantastic!

I don't think Needa's shuttle needed changed though, a Lambada shuttle is a bit OTT for a Captain, especially going ship to ship, the smaller TIE shuttle suits the situation better. Granted changing the shuttle makes it more obvious of what it is, but thats a bit 'Ric Olie'.

Jaitea said:

Come on guys if Lucas thought it needed changed he would have changed it, he has a bit of a fetish with the Lambda shuttle. Don't just change it because that is what 'a shuttle should look like'.

Keep the TIE Shuttle (which was in GOUT), a short range 2 passenger & 1 crew ferry. 

 

Why wouldn't Needa use a Lambda class shuttle to go to the executor? These shuttles would be used to ferry important members of the Empire: the Emperor, Vader, and high ranking officers, of which Needa is one. It makes more sense having him fly in a Lambda class shuttle than a modified TIE bomber. And the argument about Lucas not changing it doesn't really hold up. Look what he changed that wasn't necessary but ignored things that did need changing. In Revisited the shuttle is going to stay just that: a shuttle, so in ROTJ  Han & co's shuttle will be changed to a cargo ship, which it should have been in the first place

The Golden Idol said:

Very nice job on Yoda, Ady, but I think that when Yoda is trying to get the lamp back from R2, his brow should be furrowed, to show that he's struggling. I think that would be a nice touch, and would give more life to Yoda. Also, I agree with whoever said that Yoda's blink seems just a bit too smooth and slow.

Also, it seems that the food stick Yoda takes a bite out of is whole again when Luke inspects it and tosses it.

DF Shadow said:

I was hoping to see some subtle Yoda toe wiggling a bit though when his feet are shown so prominently, lol....don't know if it's too late for such a change though or if Ady or anyone else would want to see that. After rewatching the clip I wonder if such a little movement might work when he laughs.

I don't think Yodas feet need to wiggle at all. If we were in that position would we be wiggling our feet? No.

And the food stick is correct when Luke throws it away. He grabs it from yoda with the chewed section towards the palm of his hand. If you look at the stick when he throws t away, the chewed bit is clearly visible towards the palm of his hand.

And changing Yodas face in any way when he's trying to get the lamp back is impossible because he is moving too much and the technique i use for the facial manipulation wouldn't work

Ziz said:

As for the food stick, Yoda's got a small mouth...he couldn't have taken that much of a bite to start with.

The amount bitten off the food stick is actually only a tiny piece and is the exact amount that Yoda placed in his mouth and would have bitten off

rpvee said:

1. Ady made a Yoda puppet?

2. Ady, what is it with you and these "it's split second so it doesn't matter" things? The reflection, the floor... it shouldn't matter how short it is, heck that should mean it's easier to fix because it's not a long shot.  You went through ANH and fixed every little thing to make it THE version of the film.  Why not the same for ESB?

But i have proved that there should be no reflections. And i didn't fix every little thing in ANH. There were many things that i left alone because they were insignificant or too quick to even notice

And, no, i haven't made a Yoda puppet

Monroville said:

Also, in regards to this shot:



Are the X-wing engines going to be redder to match their appearance in ANH?  BTW, I like how the foreground clouds are bluer (or whiter) than the original image, which makes them match up with the background clouds a lot better now.

Rpvee: I know where you're coming from, but also remember who is doing the work (FOR FREE).  I can deal with things like Needa's really bright SD if it means getting an overall perfected EMPIRE in 720p.

Ady: while I still think Needa's SD could be darkened (even if the main hull was darkened to 50% of the dark side of the escort SD by the Executor), I will say that it still looks quite a bit better and less "modelly" than it did in the GOUT.

I can assure you the engines are red in that shot.

And as for the stardestroyer, many of the clips & screenshots i have posted are unfinished as i don't want to post fully completed ones all the time because it will spoil the first viewing of the film a bit if you have seen everything

Even this shot from a render done over a month ago isn't finished yet.

The small stardestroyer has yet to be replaced with a better version. The clip i posted hadn't had any of the colouring tweaks done to the stardestroyer and was from a quick test render to see the flight plan of the new shuttle, which has since been replaced by a different shuttle as you may be able to tell from the new shot. And yet again imageshack has messed with the colours. The superstardestroyer is supposed to be the same colour and brightness it is in the older shot, but it looks different in this one

vaderios said:

(not the grid light thing)

Well i said grid, i meant grill lol :P

Near the grill then :) I think the floor bends a bit.

 

-Angel

Sorry, i misread it. yeh looks like it moves a tiny little bit, but its so quick you can't really see it. Plus it happens just as the focus on the camera changes which stretches the floor vertically so that could be making it look like it moves more than it does

vaderios said:

Thanks for the clips too :)

 

Ady: will you fix the floor when needa falls?( not the grid light thing) it looks likes wood when it should be dead stable.( like you did in dagobah's floor)

-Angel

No. there's no need to.  it's a maintenance grill which isn't as solid as a floor would be

I thought Hz was a frequency that had no impact on framerate. I can drop a PCM audio track down to a really low Hz and it won't affect the sync

rpvee said:

Then what's lighting up the Star Destroyer's bottom?

Maybe it's a binary system. lol ;(

vaderios said:

I see bright star destroyer. Will you replace it with the shadow concept one?

-Angel

No i won't be. Just tracking all the mattes needed for shadow changes and adding tracking lights would be a nightmare, plus i think it better bright as that's is the focal point. In the darker concept the stardestroyer kinda got lost a bit

doubleofive said:

Is that new shuttle a little on the small side?  Or was Vader's shuttle in RotJ too big?

I'll try to get some comparisons together.

It's the correct scale. Just look at the size of the docking bay compared to the shuttle. Plus in ROTJ the shuttle came out of the front smaller bay not the main one

And, yes, the scale is wrong in ROTJ. It would never have fit in any of the docking bays

vaderios said:

How i can see them without the facebook login crap?

Edit: ARG!!!!!!!

Now i have to enlist friends who has shitbook to sent me the videos.

 

-Anger

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Didn't you have to register to use these forums? Why is facebook any different?

I'm doing the best i can with the new restrictions my ISP imposed upon its users this weekend. Maybe i shouldn't have bothered

Ziz said:

And what about making it available somewhere for those of us that aren't into all this FaceSpaceMyBook crap?

I prefer upping them to facebook now because of the quality and i'm fed up with all the ads for the music tracks popping up everytime i watch a video on Youtube and it always screws up the aspect ratio if the video has been cropped. Plus my bloody ISP has started throttling Rapidshare and other uploading sites so it would take me hours to upload to rapidshare now instead of minutes

Here's all the videos including the Yoda one and a couple of new additions:)

Videos

RoccondilRinon said:

No, this was when the video was still there, but it was like it was only showing every few frames.

It might have been that you were trying to view the video just as i was deleting it

RoccondilRinon said:

I tried watching it but it was like 10 frames a second - which meant there was no way to see any of the lipsyncing or anything. Any chance you could upload it through the usual channels as well?

I accidentally deleted the video when editing the info so i'm re-uploading it now. Facebook is actually a lot better quality than YouTube so i will be uploading all videos to there from now on.

It should be available shortly.

doubleofive said:

adywan said:

New Vid :)

Meeting Yoda

Fantastic tweaks, love the blink and "yOda".  However, you can still see through the crack under R2's head, just to be the nitpicker I am (which is nothing compared to some around here....)

Thanks for sharing, love that you've gone back on your "no more previews EVER!" ;-)

I'm not bothered about seeing some light underneath the dome. he is a robot after all :) Now if you could see Kenny Baker then that would be a different matter

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Excellent! I love that Yoda actually takes a BITE of the food! :D

Is Frank Oz's head gone now? It's hard to tell from the video...

Very very cool!

Yes, his head has now gone

New Vids :)

Facebook Vids

Are the videos you are working with interlaced? It sounds a lot like an interlacing issue to me.

This is very strange indeed. You mentioned to me that you ripped the AC3 from my ESB AVCHD and it synced up perfectly to your video. Well i didn't have to change the speed of the audio to sync with the video so it is the same speed and pitch that it was ripped from the laserdisc

If you have sony vegas you could try loading your video and the downconverted wav files into that to see if they sync that way

You're not joining the 3 AC3 files together and trying to sync the whole file that way are you?

ImperialFighter said:

Also still wondering if there would be any saber 'reflection' seen in that shot where Luke has his back nearest to the window, or not?

No. If you look at the right side of the frame in that shot you can see the reflection of lukes legs come into frame but not enough that you would see any of the saber at all

sans_fi said:

vaderios said:

Not it wasnt :P

You harly see the reflection but its there.(ady will say: all these will be downgraded when the PT:R comes)

Besides the perspective in ESB is a bit weird so the reflection is not all the time in the glass. Vader is overlap most of the glass area too.(Ady will say: No need to add any reflection, the focus in on the characters and too much work.) :P

 

-Angel

 There ARE lots of digital lights and reflections on the prequels that feel distracting. Like the lightsaber light on yoda's face and clothes (when the lightsaber doesnt light anybody else) or the light of the blasters every time clone troopers shoot. All those things made them look more CG than real.

Thats why im against lightning any real character or surface with the lightsaber (unless it MEANS something or the light is there for a dramatic reason)

If you notice the reflection in that shot. it's amazing that he lightsaber can reflect through Anakin's body so you can see the whole saber blade on the window when you should only see half that length.

vaderios said:

Well, i've  just looked at the whole sequence and that is the only shot where you may even see a reflection from the sabers. But upon a closer inspection the most you may even see would be the tip of Vader's blade.

I like that i chose the frame that it shows the reflection and ady chose the one that isnt. anyways whatever :P

Well actually Angel, i chose the frame where Luke's position is the furthest back which shows more of the reflection and is the only frame where the tip of the sabre may have been visible. Also it is only 2 frames after your pic.  In your frame there is no chance there would be any reflection from the sabers.

rpvee said:

mrbenja0618 said:

But is that really a fix? Or is it Ady pleasing the fans? I think Ady's right in this case... It's not needed.

 If there should logically be a reflection there when there isn't one, no matter how small, then yes, it would indeed be a fix.

So should i add just the smallest tip of Vaders lightsaber to just 1 frame? Because thats the sum total of frames where you may even see it

Well, i've  just looked at the whole sequence and that is the only shot where you may even see a reflection from the sabers. But upon a closer inspection the most you may even see would be the tip of Vader's blade. Here's a very quick sketch of the reflection

As you can see, Lukes stance is leaning forward and tracing the line of the leg that we can see , the line of the floor light and his other foot which is off the side of the floor light there is no way you would see Luke's blade at all. So, is it worth adding just the tip, even though you may not even see it anyway? I don't think it's worth it

Monroville said:

I hope Ady takes this into consideration: that first shot (or second in this case) when the probot first comes out always looked really fake, and the flames in this case could hide the fakiness a little better - though I could see the flames dying out as the shot progressed or being toned down a little.

Overall, everything about this mock-up is better: I love how you can see the hill behind the flames; how the mountains stand out from the sky; even the HAL eye I think works really well and would give it some life (not to mention a droidish connection to R2).  For that matter, how would the probot look to have a few more lights on it ala R2 (I know it is for infiltration and all, but anything to give it some life and take it away from looking like a model could be good).

How would it be to add a slight audio echo to the levitation noises it makes to excentuate the open air environment it is in when leaving the crater?  You know, don't forget the audio things you can do for enhancement too!

No, I won't be considering it. The flames are overkill IMHO. You also wouldn't see the mountain range like that behind all the smoke because the angle is all wrong. You would only see the bottom part of the mountain and not a ridge line. If you looks at the shot where it rises out of the crater you can actually see hints of the mountain anyway so there is no need for any changes there. Also the Hal light i don't like either. I prefer the yellow/ orange one it has now. Everything always seems to have a red or blue light nowadays so having the orange one is a nice change. And the shadows on the mountains are grey where they should be more blue