act on instinct

I think some people who had set their hopes especially high are slowly realizing they may have put too much faith in Deborah Chow, I think if this show doesn’t pull it together in the end she’ll have the Star Wars stink on her that Rian had and people will unfairly judge her abilities after pinning their hopes on her up to release. Some fans forgot they were still dealing with Disney here, the director is the patsy to blame for the studio’s continued failures.

(Glad for any of you enjoying the series so far though.)

I think as with Boba Fett and Solo expectations are going to be higher vs a wholly new thing because fans have enough of a reference point to see the narrative potential with these legacy characters, its relationship as a continuation invites comparison. Returns may always diminish but I fear Kenobi might be destined for mediocrity for the same reason it could have been great, it’s such a big deal and Disney is so afraid of fumbling they’ll never be willing to rock the boat enough to let something interesting happen, it’s a crowd pleasing deadlock, hope I’m proven wrong and Star Wars can still surprise.

I’m a big Better Call Saul fan myself and I have faith in Deborah Chow, but these SW projects have their own challenges and the visuals demand so much already. From what I’ve seen so far I am actually disappointed that even for a shorter length series it still carries more of a television feel than cinematic, they might be pulling their punches and each part will have some wow factor at least once per episode, but production value wise I’m not sure in the end if I wouldn’t have preferred a movie. Maybe I’m setting standards too high, it’s difficult enough for any show to achieve and maintain theatrical quality polish, in the case of an action packed sci-fi fantasy I think we might have already seen Disney hit the ceiling of what they can accomplish in live action, director aside.

Can never get over the line of thinking that because Lucas had multiple ideas for the sequels that means he had x number of alternate versions, the creative process aside along with the fact that these are three movies we’re talking about already, this is the guy obsessed with intercutting multiple stories.

Actually that’s a pretty accurate depiction of depression, only reinforced by the specific trauma relating to shame and guilt over personal actions.

I also hope emanswfan is doing well, this project deserves the attention and support.

It’s like talking to the Cheshire cat. You’re such a con artist, Test, stop arguing like a teenage contrarian and give your opinions on the movies, drop this obsessive hunt for strawmen gotcha moments and face an authentic conversation.

What if…Palpatine kills the kids?

sade1212 said:

I’ve been messing with the big reveal scene a little using dialogue from elsewhere in the movie and I’ve got this so far. It’s not really working as a cohesive whole but I think there’s a few bits here that could have promise.

• I removed the actual reveal and just have Kylo poke at her insecurity re: the dark side, but Rey’s reaction and the music seem a little over-the-top for that. I did this because I intend to experiment a little with moving the lineage reveal to the previous Rey/Kylo scene but that’s probably a dead end. “Who you are… The dark side.” doesn’t really make any sense.
• I removed Rey’s defiant “I do.” from the end in order to leave it a little more open-ended as to whether she’s actually tempted by Kylo’s offer to team-up to kill Palps or not.
• I’ve tried to have Kylo suggest the dyad is something to do with them both being dark-siders or emotionally damaged or whatever. One of my aims with everything I’m experimenting with is to disassociate Rey’s dark-side fears from her lineage and associate them more with Kylo Ren, as I think that would better follow up TLJ and avoid rehashing ROTJ so much. I had to trim out the ‘what Palpatine doesn’t know…’ for timing though and that does become fairly important later.

I agree Rey’s reaction might be over the top which makes you feel the mismatch, really shows on her face she’s having a revelation. Could it be moved around to have that be her response to the Dyad? Her eyes could go wide when Kylo explains they are “two that are one.”

Anakin Starkiller said:

Renumber the series to confuse the hell out of the audience.

Episode I: TRoS
Episode II: TESB
Episode III: TFA
Episode IV: RotS
Episode V: TPM
Episode VI: ANH
Episode VII: AotC
Episode VIII: RotJ
Episode IX: TLJ

Machete order 🚫

Dice Roll order ✅

What’s with the false dichotomy of censorship vs glorification?

You are approaching the internet like a giant hivemind with no regard for how members here actually feel, it’s like you were chilling in the city and now this is a neighborhood where people have a basic familiarity with each other and their views on the movies. There are plenty of threads for discussion and you’re welcome to add your two cents where it’s more relevant, instead of imposing your opinion onto the rest of the board, you’ve even copied and pasted some things you’ve written across multiple threads within the same day, it’s just not that big around here, and it reads dismissive to the rest of the community, at worst like you’re talking down to them.

TestingOutTheTest said:

It’s a jab at people acting like foreshadowing Palpatine’s return in TFA or TLJ would’ve destroyed the themes of hope or whatever.

Has anyone else made that argument on the board except you?

If Test isn’t intending to get a rise out of anyone, why make sarcastic jabs anyway?

Great stuff, love the recontextualization, how set in stone are these figurative fight sequences? I love the black and white maybe Kylo’s face could be brighter while still remaining ominous. These kind of edits excite me the most I’ve already wanted to see a silent PT and the potential of an epic 9-in-1, I would love a PM to any latest workprint when it’s ready, are the chapters going to be in sequence or will there be jumping between eras?

“The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.” - Ben Kenobi, ANH.

So it’s an energy field. With our current contemporary understanding it might be that physics seems more mystical, but I’m not sure if that’s only because its science is less familiar to us than biology and bacteria.

For reference, this is what Qui-Gon says about midichlorians so we can see both statements back to back:

“Midi-chlorians are a microscopic life-form that resides within all living cells. (…) And we are symbionts with them (…) Life-forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist… and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us… telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you’ll hear them speaking to you.”

So the Force is what gives a Jedi his power, midichlorians are the material life that channel energy and act as receptors, this is no more science fiction than officially declaring atoms in the SW universe, or that under a Jedi’s skin are muscles and a nervous system controlled by a brain. It is a communication between the conscious and the unconscious, which we can also think of as the material connecting to the spiritual world, or personal and cosmic Force.

“For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.” - Yoda

Kenobi and Yoda were the ones to use the word power, and both were in reference to the Force. Looking at all the quotes here Qui-Gon never says the word power in reference to midichlorians, what he does say is that they can communicate the will of the Force, don’t shoot the messenger!

If you’re against demystifying the Force then maybe it’s the Whills you’re after, not the midichlorians which explain nothing about what the Force actually is, only that there is an interaction between the energy and the physical world, which is what we’ve always been told and shown from the beginning. Copper doesn’t explain electricity.

||Wow a ton of people got in and busted out the quotes already, hope I’m not too redundant, in addition here are a few more thoughts…||

Call the Jedi Order flawed and materialist leaning with their blood check approach by TPM that’s fine if you want, but I disagree with the idea that Yoda in ESB views the world all that differently from Qui-Gon in TPM, in fact I believe they are saying the same thing. Yoda acknowledges that life creates the energy, life becomes a shorthand for the details of things like molecules and cells. The force flows through everything, Qui-Gon only describes the mechanics behind that process, not the Force itself. Of course in Yoda’s scene what he’s emphasizing is the immaterial which can’t be as easily observed as the crude matter of the material world, but still addresses the symbiotic nature of the two the same as Qui-Gon.

So, the Force binds everything together, and midichlorians are the material receiver, more modern than your average fairy-tale, but far from wholly material. You need to ask the philosophical question to reach the spiritual link, the OT tells us what the Force is, the PT explains how, what remains a complete and total mystery is why. Why is this the will of the Force? According to George the Whills have something to do with it, if midichlorians are the intermediary between the body and the spirit, the Whills seem to be the intermediary between the cosmic Force and the midichlorians.

In some ways the Force has been so ignored as a point of discussion, I don’t understand why we wouldn’t want to finally get into what it really is as the largest elephant in the room, especially if we’re concluding the saga.
This is maybe just too far for people personally, for me it’s too juicy, in my heart I wanted the most mind-bending finale possible. Apart from ghosts we have only really witnessed effects of those highly in tune with the Force, I just wanted to see the other side and what the hell a Whill was!

Another reason I would have loved to go microbial is getting to see an alien world within an alien world, fits in with Lucas talking about circles within circles in Cloud City, I imagine some wild 2001 stargate visuals to accompany cosmic depictions of the ethereal realm, especially after the mostly stale visuals we got from the ST all these things people called Lucas a mad man for I would have dearly loved to see, unrestrained use of CGI, inter-cutting between multiple intersecting side plots, a truly explosive finale, everything but the kitchen sink!

Making the most of it is why I was disappointed with the ST. I’m not going to argue about what undermines whoever’s character arc (which might be me missing the whole point of this particular thread), but what I felt was unfulfilled, not disrespected. It’s like one step forward two steps back but I never got to see the step forward, the plot effectively DOES reset the environment to OT status quo and discussing it as a good, bad, or inevitable thing still says to me we agree on that. Hate the pot hole, not the plot hole! The ST exhausts my patience I feel like I’m walking in place, what’s undermined is my investment, Luke already acted out of love instead of hate, learning the lessons of the previous generation’s failures, what does the ST build off of? All that our heroes did wrong happened frustratingly off screen for the purposes of establishing the ST plot line and we’re lucky every so often to see a hint in a flashback of how we got there, Palpatine is a symptom of this, his return is not exactly a mistake, but it’s a crutch, for all that was swept under the rug until then. People are upset with the literal undoing of the characters accomplishments for where it leaves us plot wise, a smaller group might disagree with how it applies thematically and that’s fine to discuss til you’re blue in the face. But what I care most about is the progression of events, they didn’t have a compelling enough reason to kick down the sandcastle only to rebuild it more or less the same way. There are other layers fine, but the world building, the central conflict, and its players all become limited to their most iconic elements. That’s why fans find it boring (and why it rubs off overly corporate to some). Inference inference but not drop to drink, a recycled journey I can’t sink into and discover. There is a lack of imagination, the universe has almost never felt smaller.

But that’s just my subjective perspective, and my explanation for the core complaint behind the mask of the criticism, why some fans have this feeling of “what was the point?”. I’m glad you got something you really liked out of the ST, Test, believe it or not we do have other members who feel the same and greatly enjoyed TROS. I even have fun watching it, but it never came together for me personally, and worse could have more cleverly connected to a more cohesive and rewarding whole between the saga, and itself as its own trilogy, had they only taken more time at the writing stage.

BedeHistory731 said:

Star Wars was a mistake. Just, the whole franchise was a mistake. I side more with TestingOuttheTest, but I stand by regretting the existence of this godawful franchise.

Jesus we really are in post SW group therapy, huh.

So my arguments are airtight and incontestable, sweet thanks.

I know you didn’t ask me, Sir, but I am fine.

ST’s storytelling problem for me is exactly the way it coneys information, style over substance and the style is like a corporate tribute album to the band I actually like, the most compelling pieces are left to my imagination. Even more frustrating are when fresh elements do come along, like Finn, but get so bogged down by all the tail chasing as the trilogy tries to figure out its own plot we never get to see his unique potential fully blossom. Just another vague throw the crowd a bone force sensitivity dangling carrot to make up for a sidelined cast member, and that was one of the main new guys! Phasma suffers a similar hollow fate with a failure to launch and character development largely left on the cutting room floor, with such a high caliber actress to boot. So we aren’t just all OT fans whining that Luke didn’t steal the show, the ST moves so slick and fast nothing happens, but also everything happens, it relies on fine print and meaningless quick fix patchwork like dyads in the force to wrap itself up. Call me picky but my bar for the ST was somewhere above barely coherent.

TestingOutTheTest said:

The Resistance had no reason to improve the X-Wings.

This is one of the most disappointing things you’ve said and lazier than I would expect from your usual arguments, can you not see that you’re making an apologist point here with little substance? The movies wanted X-Wings because they were a hit in the past with audiences, the ST had opportunities like this to expand the world and show off a new generation of technology but they decided market research was above something creative and original.

That’s the heart of a lot of these discussions, it’s the stagnation that frustrates fans who wanted to see where else the saga could go after the events of ROTJ, the galaxy can still fall under threat, a Skywalker can still be a dark sider, fragments of the Empire could regroup, but the movies hardly bother to play those out in a way that’s fresh or new, maybe on some technicality but it still feels the same. JJ could have established the Republic’s role instead of blowing them up, the rise of the FO could have happened less off screen. Palpatine’s grand plan and resurrection and reveal could have been compelling but instead it’s brushed aside, Kylo’s mask is restored with greater reverence.

Testing, could you stop beating us over the head with the same talking points you’ve scavenged from Reddit? This is a small board, everyone has had a chance to see what you have to say. I don’t like the Marvel movies either you’re treating everyone here like a hivemind when it doesn’t even apply it’s very condescending.

TestingOutTheTest said:

@act on instinct When does ANH establish that?

To answer your question, while ESB has Cloud City operating outside of the Empire (before Han and co. led them there) we can infer from ANH alone the Empire is still not in full control of the galaxy by the construction of the Death Star, without it the Empire was still playing games with the senate. Deleted scenes has Biggs spell it out for Luke and the audience, but Tarkin establishes how important the station is during the imperial briefing scene, they were losing ground as the rebellion was gaining sympathizers and were hanging their hopes on the Death Star to control systems through fear. Then before the destruction of Alderaan we have this exchange:

TARKIN: Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems
will slip through your fingers.

TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station.

Further context fills us in on just how brand new some of these developments are. At best this seems to put us in the same place we were in TLJ. Of course, if a status quo reset isn’t a problem for you that’s all a big “who cares”, but to say it’s not feels like splitting hairs.

We’re talking about literal weeks away from total galactic supremacy? That’s a pretty big achievement! We learn during the imperial briefing scene in ANH the Empire never seized full control over the galaxy either, although they were trying to with the Death Star (but our heroes prevented that 😉). Sounds like a status quo reset to me.

Beards are definitely more of a leap than de-aging as funny as that seems, this stuff still isn’t quite magic yet. At the same time I wouldn’t find it all that worth it for any of the characters to sport a beard for the sake of it, maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see what it adds other than a tracking continuity nightmare.

(Would be kind of funny if some characters went between bearded and clean faced to establish regular shaving habits within the canon…)

CaptainFaraday said:

De-ageing Natalie Portman is a really cool idea. It might look a bit weird later in the movie though, when she’s not covered by robes and her limbs clearly have an adult’s proportions.

I was waiting for someone to mention this! There are limits to what can be done but for edit purposes I still think mileage can be found in a 3-in-1 or even an abridged TPM that cuts down a lot on Padme, she still has a good amount of close ups to piece together something convincing with clever cutting, though I would need to check again to see how much leeway is really there.