It is part devil’s advocate but I’m mostly making the same point as you just in the reverse direction. I already clarified in my responses I don’t subscribe to that specific characterization or endorse bending to the will of the fandom. To me the extreme wording makes it a bit of a strawman which again is not what I’m saying is reality, but it’s also what I’m calling the canary in the coal mine, it might not be that extreme a response with your average mildly disappointed paying customer but analyzing the crossover in thought, taking those rumblings into consideration, that’s all worthwhile for the deeper conversation for me, and a more accurate picture which doesn’t appeal to authority (liked and shared youtube reviews don’t reflect the people’s opinion but a small segment of movie critics do).
Your tone is different but it feels like the same hand waving lumping together the general audience opinion based on assumptions of their consensus, then when it swings the other way circumstances make it all too speculative to say, I never said the fandom even should be validated as the feelings of the average audience member, it’s more like an undeniable echo, or a canary in the coal mine. But I’m not endorsing the hater narrative or kowtowing to the minority, just to say the less extreme feelings, the range within that overlap is meaningful to the deeper conversation, outside of fandom’s personal opinions and conclusions.
Again I could cite my own real world interactions with non fandom people but I don’t want to just speak from anecdotes which can also easily be discounted by nature of being an anecdote.
My stance also is not about criticizing the movie, it’s when you say those feelings are only with the fandom you also are making an assumption of reality and all contrary data is insufficient to extrapolate from and so can be dismissed as virtually nonexistent (“that’s just Star Wars fans”). I wouldn’t assume the average person hated the movie they paid to see, but you don’t have to commit to full boycott to be disappointed while still going to see the next one because you’ve been a fan for decades and it’s the holiday event to go with your friends and family. Like TFA didn’t reach 2 billion all on its own merits, no more than Jurassic World.
Broom Kid said:
Is there some venn diagramming of the “Silent Majority” as you put it and the vocal side of a much, much smaller segment of that audience that self-identifies as “the fandom?” Definitely. Is that venn diagramming all that important to anyone but the people in that self-identified fandom? Not really.
I’m with you through most of this, but this absolutely is important to the studio, they want a four quadrant blockbuster.
I’m also not sure what it is you’re trying to argue in this context? That if things were different, they’d be different? TFA was liked. A lot. It wasn’t merely “Tolerated” to the level of success it enjoyed.
It’s popularity doesn’t negate or invalidate people’s feelings about the movie though. I’m not saying “Well, it was popular, so your criticisms don’t count” I have problems with TFA as a movie, too. What I’m saying is that trying to reframe its obvious and observable success both financially and critically as a mass exercise in tolerance doesn’t make any sense to me if you’re trying to reflect reality at all, nor does trying to frame TLJ’s reception (which was remarkably good if not AS remarkable as TFA’s) as a result of the general audience’s collective pent-up rage being unleashed.
It’s not always arguing, sometimes it’s just begging the question. I don’t fully agree with either characterization, TFA is a crowd pleaser and it wasn’t accepted begrudgingly, but there’s a kernel of truth without tackling hyperbole as literal. Mostly I don’t like how dismissive people can be because it feels like its own cherry picking, the numbers don’t matter even the week to week drop offs, the audience scores can be manipulated, my inner circle observations are anecdotal, the reviews even some made within weeks of initial release only represent the views of a small minority with an indiscernible overlap so the rest is unknowable and indisputable. Feels convenient and arbitrary, like I could use the same logic for any movie that wasn’t a colossal bomb. I get it that the studios shouldn’t feel held hostage to some 1% of fans in a twitter mob that just won’t shut up, but in this case it comes off as a failure to extrapolate or skewing the result to reduce those numbers to only the most passionately disgruntled.
Broom Kid said:
it certainly didn’t sour to the point where anyone could claim its “tolerated” popularity was only kept afloat due to the power of hope that sequels would “fix” it.
This suggested POV seems to be reflecting a small and extremely online subsect of the film’s (exponentially) larger audience.
So if box office numbers can’t be measurable (fine if you meant negligible, though that’s also somewhat subjective) because stacked circumstances make it all speculative, doesn’t the other side of that coin include inflated box office in the first place due to the brand? What about the Luke Skywalker tease at the end of TFA, that was bait on the hook for many legacy fans to return regardless of their feelings on the movie. What about the prequels? Many who hated TPM still returned for the other two with similar hope that it would all come together in the end. You can’t imply the silent majority in no way reflects the vocal side of the community.
I still think it’s more than fair to say many opinions on TFA soured over time, and after TROS all three went down in favor retroactively once audiences saw what it amounted to in the end. TFA unresolved is much better when all the potential for it to be anything was still there.
Irvin Kershner is overrated for his work on ESB and is not the reason that movie is so good.
Can we get an update on this?
Not to mention, I don’t like Axl Rose’s voice. I think it is grating.
I’ll remind you this thread is for unpopular opinions.
I feel it’s more about authenticity, less quality. Though I don’t think we reach ‘what could have been’ territory without a disappointing result, grass is always greener etc, the emphasis has been on auteur theory (of which Lucas himself believes). You can still like one thing better than the other or find another artist who personally takes the risks you like to see or achieves your idea of a satisfying result, it’s true even auteur theory doesn’t define or determine good or bad, but for some of us and now maybe even more after TROS that’s the vision we rather would have seen, for its authenticity, quality not guaranteed.
How is Star Wars being originally intended for children up for debate?
JJ: She’ll make 1.5 billion before streaming, she may not look like much but she’s got it where it counts, kid. I’ve made a lot of special modifications myself, but we’re a little rushed so if you’ll just get on board, we’ll get out of here.
Is it time for a new thread? Seems to be getting more into comparisons between the whole saga now, less specific to TROS. Think it’s a good time for that since the dust has sort of settled.
Interesting thought, Anchorhead, the animation style sounds like it would make a nice harmony between the CGI Clone Wars and Genndy’s stylized 2D version.
I wouldn’t call it a special edition, this site is so hair trigger on anything that could be designated a change I think we miss the forest for the trees, if Lucas was only ever removing the garbage mattes I don’t think this conversation would even be happening. Fan-edit seems needlessly harsh too, Mike himself has changed his own view on alterations to very minor effect shots he’s decided to instead preserve rather than fix even when preservation is a lot more time consuming and counter intuitive than a fix. It’s much more of a true remaster.
I think there’s some sour grapes on here because we don’t have access to Legacy, but this is more than a decade of work and it has been a labor of love, I’m not comfortable brushing aside all that dedication and effort as MV just doing whatever he wants, he could really be much less considerate if it was the case that he was exclusively altering to personal taste.
Broom Kid said:
There’s still two other films in the trilogy that are completely unrestored now. Do we just only have the restored Star Wars and that’s it? Where do the other two restorations come from? How long do people have to wait to get them? Who is paying who to do them?
Star Wars is the real problem, there’s a reason it’s taken the most effort to restore, doesn’t even compare to the work put into ESB and ROTJ, there’s despecializing and there’s restoration.
Did they force heal Luke’s X-wing?
I just had to suspend disbelief and not think about stuff like the ship being under water for 30 years. Or his door being made out of parts of the X-wing. The door Chewie tears off its hinges.
Or Anakin’s Saber magically being made whole again.
I still really enjoyed the movie.
Apparently according to the novelization Rey repaired the ship from parts of the TIE Fighter.
What lovely symbolism, too bad it’s not in the movie…
It’s not that I dislike the title itself, but since you now have to say SW77 or SE97 or whatever I’ve grown to be annoyed by the whole mess.
Fan editors should start inserting SW77, SE97, and GOUT into places like our own THX 1138. 😃
I guess it’s partly because it goes into the pile of revisionism that this site is against but I was kind of surprised how few people here like A New Hope, it’s actually one of my favorite titles out of all of them, so humble for a space epic, if it was a generic sci-fi b movie they would have called it something dumb like Death Star, I like how whimsical and fairy-tale ANH sounds, just very clean to me.
Recently watched TPM on mute, I appreciated it a lot more just by taking it all in visually, so much great design and I could follow the story pretty well despite having not seen it in a long time. I’ve heard another good thing to try if you hate the line delivery is to watch the prequels dubbed in a foreign language with subtitles. Moments still took me out of the movie but they were fewer and farther between, the acting is the biggest fish of the problem, that improves with each prequel.
TPM also I can understand feeling underwhelming to those who really would have preferred to see the characters they already loved in an episode 7, instead it feels like the pilot of a tv series or like the first or second Harry Potter. So it feels like a rejection of the new characters made worse by wooden performances and an overall resistance to change leaving a bad impression. I can admit I just didn’t grow up with these movies first and it does influence my bias, but I’ve come to welcome the prequels to the table when I consider the generation that would actually grow up watching 1-6 in order and don’t have an implicit bias. Anyone is allowed to ignore them but I don’t really think a Gungan is dumber than an Ewok. The way I remember the theatrical releases most people at the time were confused by the sleeker ships and droid technology, and that they wanted to cut to the chase and see Anakin become Darth Vader. But it starts lighthearted and slow and people got impatient. The OT is a classic many fans don’t want tampered with, for some that includes backstory.
Alan Parker dies age 76
RIP, absolutely love Bugsy Malone
Possibly more convexly shaped for the angle, but it looks even better in that candid photo than the 2010 shot! The lighting and color are doing a lot too, I would say just to replace the whole console with 2001’s like you say but I wonder how far that can be taken and if there aren’t trickier shots of Hal from other angles that would throw a total wrench in continuity.
Had a composer suggestion! Sergei Prokofiev has a nice Soviet connection, though I understand some works being in the ‘too famous’ category here.
This is part of the problem comparing 2010 against 2001, it just looks so cheap, look at that chunky HAL it went from menacing to a fisher-price playset.
Here’s what I tried based on that base then trying to move it away from some of the blues in the shadows.
Hope Dre doesn’t mind adding our own passes, it’s just a lot easier for discussion than trying to articulate such slight color changes, I don’t post assuming my grade is better than Dre’s work, I know there’s mistakes, I’m not even working in 10bit, it’s all an iterative process.
Edit: Tried to push even bluer