act on instinct

Well you could set them up but I feel there’s not really room for both them AND Palpatine as the big bad while neither are developed where they really responsibly should be by the third act, one would seriously have to go or at least go under developed. RJ isn’t obligated to answer all the questions but I think he and JJ were too precious about each other’s ideas and it mutually made them stay away and go “I’m not touching that.” leading to leaving the thread just hanging in the air. It’s less about what I want and more working with what you got. I don’t think the Knights of Ren were even what I would have wanted but it is a lot of new potential left over, I think they were caught up in their own stories they didn’t pick up the ball and see what the trilogy needed at large. Course JJ has his own issues fully fleshing out concepts and characters, Maz really ended as a prop and pretty redundant to have initially received so much attention, JJ also fumbled Phasma all on his own in just one movie.

I actually do count it as a point against Rian for not utilizing the Knights of Ren better, that was another softball pitch he more or less ignored. Maybe that sounds like getting into what you wished for vs what you got but really does become a question of why not, it’s like TFA is JJ holding up his hand for a high five but RJ is looking the other way, leaving him hanging. TROS is the finale, probably should have been them as the villains instead of the Emperor, but with so much to get done of course if the Knights weren’t developed in the 2nd they are going to be rushed in the third. And really them being even in the finale in the first place feels like it’s just there to serve continuity that became more background lore than anything. Now that doesn’t mean it’s all Rian’s fault but I think it shows how disconnected their visions ultimately were and why people keep saying they should have gone in with a plan.

Been seeing it around the question with TROS of why didn’t JJ just work with what RJ left him, that’s what people were asking when TLJ came out, just in reverse order. TFA and TLJ feel like two 1st movies, I have started asking those I know who really hated the movie (but aren’t major fans enough to really care to give it as many rewatches or chances) if they would have liked the movie more with no changes if it was just the first one, so far all of them have said yes, so point for team RJ should have done the whole trilogy.

I was responding to your response so I get the confusion, no worries, but yeah I wouldn’t agree, I’m not even sure many TLJ haters would think that without contradicting themselves considering the level of distaste for Rose and she’s an original character. I think you feel I’m underrating his contributions to Breaking Bad and I feel you’re overrating it, but my point was to say we’re talking about Rian as a writer, and without trying to dismiss him entirely I don’t think his contributions were why Breaking Bad fans love Ozymandias so much relative to what Vince Gilliagan and co. had built up to over those seasons, though not to say he didn’t do a good job.

I will say of the established characters I was disappointed with Rian’s execution of Snoke, and not for lack of backstory, felt like he was made into a mustache twirler when he didn’t need to be, even if the overall story focus isn’t about his character having the most nuance.

Broom Kid said:

No, I directly quoted you.

(…) the idea that he doesn’t work well with other people’s creations doesn’t hold a lot of water to me.

Okay well I never said that

Broom Kid said:

The idea that he doesn’t work well with characters he didn’t create doesn’t make sense considering one of the best shows on television, one he had zero hand in creating or developing, kept having him come back to direct increasingly more and more important episodes.

The idea that he doesn’t work well with people or their creations doesn’t hold a lot of water when looking at his career, a career which has never actually had a failure in it, looking at both audience, critical, and financial receptions.

I think maybe you’re misinterpreting or responding to someone other than me because my point was not to slander Rian as hard to work with, or to minimize the role of a director. But it is clear he did write TLJ and did not write Breaking Bad which was deep into its own arcs which were followed completely under his direction. The difference between those two examples is the amount of control and authorship.

He didn’t write those episodes of Breaking Bad though, and he didn’t do a bad job directing TLJ either, in a way Rian got what he wanted as we’re discussing mainly the story and characters of the movie he made and not the failure of taking on a large production. TLJ isn’t a mess in the way 1984’s Dune is, for example.

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

It reminds me of Go Set a Watchman, decades after To Kill a Mockingbird new light is shed on the character Atticus Finch, who is revealed to be less than the perfect moral symbol his daughter once knew him to be. Though the publication was itself also controversial with the book deemed an incomplete manuscript to what became the original novel, enough so that many fans decided it isn’t canon in the first place (not so different, eh?), the same theme of disillusionment is intact.

The humor was much more on point and not just non sequiturs, I really enjoyed the character exchange between the trio when they reacted to Poe as an ex spice runner “you were a stormtrooper/scavenger!”. Playful motivated lines in moments like that really should have happened more in the beginning with TFA.

DrDre said:

it was clear many questions and plot holes would just be glossed over in favour of checking boxes, and rehashing Star Wars tropes, it felt very cynical, unearned, and hollow to me.

This is what keeps me from liking the movie more, I can handle a big goofy ending, but the cynicism can be coldly felt throughout the story, nobody wants to leave the end of their favorite series feeling stupid for their investment.

The fact that we even need to dive this deep for explanations through art books and lore really bums me out.

If only the film didn’t rush into these ideas and communicated them a little more smoothly, I don’t think what is falls apart, they probably drilled all those theoretical holes out with a room full of fact checkers while they tied the last bows, it’s weak on a more emotional level than a betrayal of logic. Like, I can buy Palpatine as this sort of lich wraith whatever if it was presented that way, but the movie doesn’t have enough time for itself so rushed Sheev return becomes awkward Sheev return and it cheapens the ultimate impact.

Most disappointing was the world building never coming into its own, too much rehashing by the end it felt like a caricature of its former glory. Just realized the other day that Pasana makes yet another desert planet.

Most satisfying was Kylo, predictable answers but his really was the most developed of all the characters with the strongest execution.

luckydube56 said:

The very use of the term suggests a certain political leaning is required in order to be on the righteous side of this debate.

What a total load, now you’re just leaping to conclusions in order to stir the pot, please refer to the second half of my post about derailing threads, who has the victim complex here?

I think until someone makes their own Yoda replica to puppet and composite into scenes we should just cut our losses, CGI on top of CGI to reduce the effects of CGI does not sound like it will bode well…

Force-Abel said:

That you think people were referring to you on this matter confirms much.

To be fair I feel like the messaging has been so vague I’ve questioned whether or not I was being considered one of the bad eggs…

Tensions are high but I haven’t seen a lot of people disrespected, not going to argue much further than that (as I don’t know all the history and may be speaking out of turn), I already feel like several threads are ironically now being derailed by response to what appeared to me to be just other’s opinions. I expect and hope the dust will settle within the coming weeks of release, until then I hope everyone can still have a good time talking about the movies good or bad through the remainder of their holiday.

EDIT: If you use this post to justify hostile behavior you have missed my point entirely.

Dre you were also one of the closest to the mark with your opening weekend prediction, it’s been great seeing more now accepting the numbers you’ve always stuck by after so much push back just a few months ago.

Hope everyone is having a great holiday, I feel like I made a lot of peace with this trilogy after TROS. At the end of the day it really is sort of a how can you stay mad, it’s enough for the kids at worst, they at least did the trio and tried to pack in some adventure while still attempting to connect everything best it could, I think it’s a little silly but it isn’t without some heart. My second viewing made the breakneck pace way less jarring, and this might be the most rewatchable of the trilogy as time goes on, it flies by but does just enough tidying to not be as confused as it might seem first watch, even if it hangs just by the thread of a line. It does all that it’s supposed to, even if it might not be to everyone’s satisfaction or standards. But when you accept it for what it is I think really it’s not all that bad, maybe not so graceful but not abysmal.

So I was just thinking about this while talking about the movie with a friend tonight. When Palpatine raises his hands to form a new fleet of star destroyers, I think that might be an attempt to retcon the non explanation for the growth and resources of the FO, just like creating Snoke, gone is the political machine of TLJ, and TFA’s status quo has also now been completely explained, Palpatine was behind it all! Sheev out playing holochess while we all playing checkers…

EDIT: wait…nevermind, Poe then says his followers have been building the fleet for years, I don’t even know anymore.

DominicCobb said:
What if Rey and Kylo switch sides halfway through? And then it becomes Ben trying to save Rey from the darkness?

I believe this was where Lucas had wanted it to go just that they would be related.

There’s always this idea in promotional material about choosing a path, why not go full throttle? Disney+ choose your own adventure trilogy! Only half joking…

spectraljulian said:

I liked it but rolled my eyes a lot. Luke catching the lightsaber and raising his X-wing from the water were the worst. Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter were the worst. The overexplaining of everything was the worst. Chewie finally getting his medal was the worst.

It’s like they took this seriously
http://www.dorkly.com/post/86874/if-the-last-jedi-haters-got-the-movie-they-wanted

The idea that Star Wars in a way was modernizing a throwback does seem to present a balanced path and what feels like the “trick” to the whole thing. The shots lifted from old westerns such as The Searchers, or classic samurai movies by cinematic master Kurosawa and so on, the mix of traditional and new was how Star Wars could push itself but still feel familiar. For me there are some traditions worth keeping and are in fact part of the whole Star Wars flavor. There really aren’t many scores these days as bombastic as Star Wars with a full orchestra, which itself also was a throwback even at the time. In fairness even to TFA I do think compared to other contemporary blockbusters it had much more thoughtful blocking, which also seemed to be a conscious decision to present a more classic staging reminiscent of the originals. To me that is the good side of upholding tradition, and shares a space next to the re-lighting of the candle that is retelling the hero’s journey, Star Wars’ identity is rooted in both pushing the envelope and paying homage to the classic epics.

That line, however, can and has been flanderized by this point, regressive circles will only lead to shallow results if taken too far, so the foundations should be solid on the shoulders of giants, not just Star Wars itself.

Broom Kid, by your own logic (and I don’t mean this as a gotcha) do the prequels deserve more respect for pushing the boundaries of its visuals over TFA? This is more overall production design than specifically cinematography, but personally I am way over the clinging to practical effects as a savior and see it as another layer of this same stagnation.

Can someone make a thread to continue this conversation in depth? Everyone is saying some good things but we’re veering off box office.