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act on instinct

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Post
#1440838
Topic
George Lucas's Sequel Trilogy
Time

“The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.” - Ben Kenobi, ANH.

So it’s an energy field. With our current contemporary understanding it might be that physics seems more mystical, but I’m not sure if that’s only because its science is less familiar to us than biology and bacteria.

For reference, this is what Qui-Gon says about midichlorians so we can see both statements back to back:

“Midi-chlorians are a microscopic life-form that resides within all living cells. (…) And we are symbionts with them (…) Life-forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist… and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us… telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you’ll hear them speaking to you.”

So the Force is what gives a Jedi his power, midichlorians are the material life that channel energy and act as receptors, this is no more science fiction than officially declaring atoms in the SW universe, or that under a Jedi’s skin are muscles and a nervous system controlled by a brain. It is a communication between the conscious and the unconscious, which we can also think of as the material connecting to the spiritual world, or personal and cosmic Force.

“For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.” - Yoda

Kenobi and Yoda were the ones to use the word power, and both were in reference to the Force. Looking at all the quotes here Qui-Gon never says the word power in reference to midichlorians, what he does say is that they can communicate the will of the Force, don’t shoot the messenger!

If you’re against demystifying the Force then maybe it’s the Whills you’re after, not the midichlorians which explain nothing about what the Force actually is, only that there is an interaction between the energy and the physical world, which is what we’ve always been told and shown from the beginning. Copper doesn’t explain electricity.

||Wow a ton of people got in and busted out the quotes already, hope I’m not too redundant, in addition here are a few more thoughts…||

Call the Jedi Order flawed and materialist leaning with their blood check approach by TPM that’s fine if you want, but I disagree with the idea that Yoda in ESB views the world all that differently from Qui-Gon in TPM, in fact I believe they are saying the same thing. Yoda acknowledges that life creates the energy, life becomes a shorthand for the details of things like molecules and cells. The force flows through everything, Qui-Gon only describes the mechanics behind that process, not the Force itself. Of course in Yoda’s scene what he’s emphasizing is the immaterial which can’t be as easily observed as the crude matter of the material world, but still addresses the symbiotic nature of the two the same as Qui-Gon.

So, the Force binds everything together, and midichlorians are the material receiver, more modern than your average fairy-tale, but far from wholly material. You need to ask the philosophical question to reach the spiritual link, the OT tells us what the Force is, the PT explains how, what remains a complete and total mystery is why. Why is this the will of the Force? According to George the Whills have something to do with it, if midichlorians are the intermediary between the body and the spirit, the Whills seem to be the intermediary between the cosmic Force and the midichlorians.

In some ways the Force has been so ignored as a point of discussion, I don’t understand why we wouldn’t want to finally get into what it really is as the largest elephant in the room, especially if we’re concluding the saga.
This is maybe just too far for people personally, for me it’s too juicy, in my heart I wanted the most mind-bending finale possible. Apart from ghosts we have only really witnessed effects of those highly in tune with the Force, I just wanted to see the other side and what the hell a Whill was!

Post
#1440675
Topic
George Lucas's Sequel Trilogy
Time

Another reason I would have loved to go microbial is getting to see an alien world within an alien world, fits in with Lucas talking about circles within circles in Cloud City, I imagine some wild 2001 stargate visuals to accompany cosmic depictions of the ethereal realm, especially after the mostly stale visuals we got from the ST all these things people called Lucas a mad man for I would have dearly loved to see, unrestrained use of CGI, inter-cutting between multiple intersecting side plots, a truly explosive finale, everything but the kitchen sink!

Post
#1440018
Topic
I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.
Time

Making the most of it is why I was disappointed with the ST. I’m not going to argue about what undermines whoever’s character arc (which might be me missing the whole point of this particular thread), but what I felt was unfulfilled, not disrespected. It’s like one step forward two steps back but I never got to see the step forward, the plot effectively DOES reset the environment to OT status quo and discussing it as a good, bad, or inevitable thing still says to me we agree on that. Hate the pot hole, not the plot hole! The ST exhausts my patience I feel like I’m walking in place, what’s undermined is my investment, Luke already acted out of love instead of hate, learning the lessons of the previous generation’s failures, what does the ST build off of? All that our heroes did wrong happened frustratingly off screen for the purposes of establishing the ST plot line and we’re lucky every so often to see a hint in a flashback of how we got there, Palpatine is a symptom of this, his return is not exactly a mistake, but it’s a crutch, for all that was swept under the rug until then. People are upset with the literal undoing of the characters accomplishments for where it leaves us plot wise, a smaller group might disagree with how it applies thematically and that’s fine to discuss til you’re blue in the face. But what I care most about is the progression of events, they didn’t have a compelling enough reason to kick down the sandcastle only to rebuild it more or less the same way. There are other layers fine, but the world building, the central conflict, and its players all become limited to their most iconic elements. That’s why fans find it boring (and why it rubs off overly corporate to some). Inference inference but not drop to drink, a recycled journey I can’t sink into and discover. There is a lack of imagination, the universe has almost never felt smaller.

But that’s just my subjective perspective, and my explanation for the core complaint behind the mask of the criticism, why some fans have this feeling of “what was the point?”. I’m glad you got something you really liked out of the ST, Test, believe it or not we do have other members who feel the same and greatly enjoyed TROS. I even have fun watching it, but it never came together for me personally, and worse could have more cleverly connected to a more cohesive and rewarding whole between the saga, and itself as its own trilogy, had they only taken more time at the writing stage.

BedeHistory731 said:

Star Wars was a mistake. Just, the whole franchise was a mistake. I side more with TestingOuttheTest, but I stand by regretting the existence of this godawful franchise.

Jesus we really are in post SW group therapy, huh.

Post
#1439794
Topic
I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.
Time

ST’s storytelling problem for me is exactly the way it coneys information, style over substance and the style is like a corporate tribute album to the band I actually like, the most compelling pieces are left to my imagination. Even more frustrating are when fresh elements do come along, like Finn, but get so bogged down by all the tail chasing as the trilogy tries to figure out its own plot we never get to see his unique potential fully blossom. Just another vague throw the crowd a bone force sensitivity dangling carrot to make up for a sidelined cast member, and that was one of the main new guys! Phasma suffers a similar hollow fate with a failure to launch and character development largely left on the cutting room floor, with such a high caliber actress to boot. So we aren’t just all OT fans whining that Luke didn’t steal the show, the ST moves so slick and fast nothing happens, but also everything happens, it relies on fine print and meaningless quick fix patchwork like dyads in the force to wrap itself up. Call me picky but my bar for the ST was somewhere above barely coherent.

Post
#1439785
Topic
I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

The Resistance had no reason to improve the X-Wings.

This is one of the most disappointing things you’ve said and lazier than I would expect from your usual arguments, can you not see that you’re making an apologist point here with little substance? The movies wanted X-Wings because they were a hit in the past with audiences, the ST had opportunities like this to expand the world and show off a new generation of technology but they decided market research was above something creative and original.

That’s the heart of a lot of these discussions, it’s the stagnation that frustrates fans who wanted to see where else the saga could go after the events of ROTJ, the galaxy can still fall under threat, a Skywalker can still be a dark sider, fragments of the Empire could regroup, but the movies hardly bother to play those out in a way that’s fresh or new, maybe on some technicality but it still feels the same. JJ could have established the Republic’s role instead of blowing them up, the rise of the FO could have happened less off screen. Palpatine’s grand plan and resurrection and reveal could have been compelling but instead it’s brushed aside, Kylo’s mask is restored with greater reverence.

Post
#1439780
Topic
I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.
Time

Testing, could you stop beating us over the head with the same talking points you’ve scavenged from Reddit? This is a small board, everyone has had a chance to see what you have to say. I don’t like the Marvel movies either you’re treating everyone here like a hivemind when it doesn’t even apply it’s very condescending.

TestingOutTheTest said:

@act on instinct When does ANH establish that?

To answer your question, while ESB has Cloud City operating outside of the Empire (before Han and co. led them there) we can infer from ANH alone the Empire is still not in full control of the galaxy by the construction of the Death Star, without it the Empire was still playing games with the senate. Deleted scenes has Biggs spell it out for Luke and the audience, but Tarkin establishes how important the station is during the imperial briefing scene, they were losing ground as the rebellion was gaining sympathizers and were hanging their hopes on the Death Star to control systems through fear. Then before the destruction of Alderaan we have this exchange:

TARKIN: Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems
will slip through your fingers.

TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station.

Further context fills us in on just how brand new some of these developments are. At best this seems to put us in the same place we were in TLJ. Of course, if a status quo reset isn’t a problem for you that’s all a big “who cares”, but to say it’s not feels like splitting hairs.

Post
#1439646
Topic
I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.
Time

We’re talking about literal weeks away from total galactic supremacy? That’s a pretty big achievement! We learn during the imperial briefing scene in ANH the Empire never seized full control over the galaxy either, although they were trying to with the Death Star (but our heroes prevented that 😉). Sounds like a status quo reset to me.

Post
#1439616
Topic
Deepfake Ideas - Index and Discussion
Time

Beards are definitely more of a leap than de-aging as funny as that seems, this stuff still isn’t quite magic yet. At the same time I wouldn’t find it all that worth it for any of the characters to sport a beard for the sake of it, maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see what it adds other than a tracking continuity nightmare.

(Would be kind of funny if some characters went between bearded and clean faced to establish regular shaving habits within the canon…)

Post
#1439453
Topic
Deepfake Ideas - Index and Discussion
Time

CaptainFaraday said:

De-ageing Natalie Portman is a really cool idea. It might look a bit weird later in the movie though, when she’s not covered by robes and her limbs clearly have an adult’s proportions.

I was waiting for someone to mention this! There are limits to what can be done but for edit purposes I still think mileage can be found in a 3-in-1 or even an abridged TPM that cuts down a lot on Padme, she still has a good amount of close ups to piece together something convincing with clever cutting, though I would need to check again to see how much leeway is really there.

Post
#1439121
Topic
Deepfake Ideas - Index and Discussion
Time

Okay here’s a weird one but seems doable with what’s currently available (though it might not pass the resolution test), has anyone thought about de-aging Padme in TPM? Using existing programs and blending reference stills of younger Natalie Portman and run them through ebsynth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOhAJ18V4nA

Post
#1434780
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Would need to look at the sequence again but I think there’s enough material to work with, Maul falling down the shaft could be done just by using the beginning of his fall before the split and cut to insert of Kenobi’s reaction then back again to a composite of the empty shaft. Re-timed this wouldn’t even need a score change everything moves fast already.

Post
#1434245
Topic
The <strong>Original Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

but as is it would mess with the pace and tension release too much

You mean provide a welcome break from the snail’s pace of the Tatooine section?

Maybe for everyone who is used to Star Wars that’s how Tatooine feels, as a kid I loved the mystery of the barren planet with the droids before meeting Luke. And yes if there was an exciting chase through a tight winding cavern in the beginning of the movie it would cause diminishing returns by the end of the movie, the sequence the entire story is building up to.

GMatias said:

Maybe go from the Tantive IV section to Luke flying, then have that end with him flying home & have the T16 really small in the sky as you pan down to the escape pod with the droids walking away? Or move it later and have it pan down to the stormtroopers inspecting the crash site?

This is a fun idea, reminds me of the cut scene of Luke looking up at the action from the beginning.

Post
#1433600
Topic
The Unpopular Film, TV, Music, Art, Books, Comics, Games, &amp; Technology Opinion Thread (for all you contrarians!)
Time

CloakedDragon97 said:

In my personal opinion, 2001: A Space Odyssey is a very overrated movie. So many people say it is a masterpiece of a film. I personally think it’s just okay. The cinematography and especially the visual effects are very ahead of its time. But the movie has one big flaw. It is so slow. For some reason it doesn’t bother me when the LOTR movies have similar pacing though. Also, I think that the best Kubrick film is a tie between Eyes Wide Shut and A Clockwork Orange. They just feel more visually unique compared to 2001. The stories for both movies interest me more.

I think people often mistake 2001 for being slower than it really is, granted it’s still a long movie and a slow burn, you’re entitled to your opinion but I seriously suggest a second look, more is going on than at first glance.

Post
#1433027
Topic
The <strong>Original Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

There are existing clips from old episodes of Blue Peter or whatever where the kids DID question Luke’s piloting ability and brought it up in the context of a semi common topic of criticism at the time. I’ve brought up the idea of Luke going through beggar’s canyon in an old thread before, I think it’s something that shows up in one of the games as well. I agree with everyone else though it’s better to have the result at the end, if Star Wars were a mini series or even just a longer movie maybe it would make sense, but as is it would mess with the pace and tension release too much, plus you don’t want to tip the hint too hard and make it overly traditional, makes the movie too predictable and feels like going through the motions, especially when you pair the beginning action with the end.

Post
#1432109
Topic
What's your take on Emperor Palpatine being brought back for The Rise of Skywalker?
Time

I think it’s highlighting a bad example (my fault) when the bigger point is that whether you can draw connections or not it doesn’t make the result strong, the intention can all be there and it still fall flat. Stories are more than math, if there’s not an emotional connection with the audience it doesn’t come together. Think about Back to the Future, analyze too deeply and the logic doesn’t hold up but it’s forgiven for the result, it works on an emotional level and we feel with the characters. Most people aren’t playing a points game with the movies, it’s not a score sheet, it’s a taste test.

Post
#1431822
Topic
What's your take on Emperor Palpatine being brought back for The Rise of Skywalker?
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

act on instinct said:

Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.

Except inferences are there to clog up plot holes so the story would make sense. Why do you think J.J. had Kylo Ren be injured in TFA?

And “I don’t like sand” DOES make sense. He’s using it as a comparison to describe how nice and beautiful Naboo and Padmé are.

Secondly, Anakin grew up with an organization that kept telling him to repress his feelings and attachments, so of course “I don’t like sand” was gonna sound so awkward and lifeless. It reinforces how awful the old Jedi Order is.

You didn’t read what I said at all. My point was that technical connections don’t absolve poor execution. You can cook a chicken without burning it and still make a bland meal.

Post
#1431715
Topic
What's your take on Emperor Palpatine being brought back for The Rise of Skywalker?
Time

Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.

Post
#1428230
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

SparkySywer said:

Either way, if he was manipulating her here, why not go with the Palpatine manipulation right off the bat? Pull the same stuff he says in TRoS instead of waiting a year?

Kylo didn’t know by then, Palpatine told him on Exegol. If anything the question becomes why did Palpatine do the waiting.

Post
#1425495
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

SparkySywer said:

act on instinct said:

There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse.

There’s some quote by Lucas comparing the fall of the Republic to the fall of the Roman Republic (comparing Palpatine to Caesar), and he comments that dictators don’t come to power at the head of a conquering army, but by turning institutions in on themselves.

So this guy’s fascinated enough by the fall of the Roman Republic to base a trilogy off of it, but not enough to know that Caesar actually did come at the head of a conquering army? The Senate gave him dictatorial powers after he conquered Rome, and it was an attempt to limit his power, not to give him power.

Palpatine also seized power through a coup via order 66, and with an army he created. I’m not sure I see the contradiction.

The quote you refer to also still points in the direction of Lucas’ intentions.

Post
#1424544
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse. The prequels might not have communicated this idea clearly and it doesn’t mean everything was planned out, but the PT is in part about the dissolution of democracy and the fall of the Republic due to institutional failings from all sides that allowed it to happen.

Even in TPM the council was flawed, that’s why Qui Gon representing the wise old sage isn’t a member of the council and defies their wishes to do what he feels he must, typically out of compassion rather than self interest. Dooku fully defected from the Jedi but formerly trained Qui Gon, one deleted scene even goes as far to compare the two as respected intellectuals who went against the grain. Dooku became corrupted and was on the wrong side of the war, but shared similar ideals and both in fact did perceive a larger view of the force.

Palpatine in ROTS calls the Jedi dogmatic and narrow minded, then twists this idea to further confuse and exploit Anakin before convincing him and the public that the Jedi Order are corrupt, tyrannical and traitors to the Republic. That’s his entire manipulation game, secretly inciting incidents that would create the conditions to a more divisive political climate, then sowing seeds of doubt until any faith in the whole system is in question.

I don’t think it’s just typical bad guy talk either, maybe for us as the audience because the movies already let
us in on who the true good guys are. At the same time we point out where the Jedi Order were flawed we still understand they aren’t the problem, but if you were living in that society without the awareness you were being misled, maybe you would take the bait further and become a separatist like Dooku.