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ZkinandBonez

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5-May-2015
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17-Oct-2018
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Post
#1241740
Topic
Lucasfilm's movie plans post Ep. IX
Time

Collipso said:

did he mention Rian’s trilogy?

He didn’t mention the Favreau series either, so I wouldn’t put to much though into it. Plus, Johnson did recently confirm that he was still working on the new trilogy.

Bob Iger said:

We have creative entities, including Benioff and Weiss, who are developing sagas of their own…

Post
#1241669
Topic
Lucasfilm's movie plans post Ep. IX
Time

DISNEY CEO SAYS THEY WILL BE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT THE VOLUME AND TIMING OF FUTURE STAR WARS MOVIES GOING FORWARD

I made the timing decision, and as I look back, I think the mistake that I made — I take the blame — was a little too much, too fast. You can expect some slowdown, but that doesn’t mean we’re not gonna make films. J.J. [Abrams] is busy making [Episode] IX. We have creative entities, including [Game of Thrones creators David] Benioff and [D.B.] Weiss, who are developing sagas of their own, which we haven’t been specific about. And we are just at the point where we’re gonna start making decisions about what comes next after J.J.’s. But I think we’re gonna be a little bit more careful about volume and timing. And the buck stops here on that.
-Bob Iger

Post
#1241236
Topic
New Star Wars comics
Time

canofhumdingers said:

I may have to look into the trade paperbacks of the Darth Vader series. I got like two issues into it when I just quit comics altogether. I was getting kinda burned out on the ho-hum marvel Star Wars stuff. I was reading the main series and the first Darth Vader series they did. Finances were tight and it kinda felt exhorbitant spending about $4 per issue. Plus my comic shop is nearly an hour from my house so I’d often let my pull-list build up for 3 or 4 months before I’d go pick it up. Several times doing that, though, they’d have missed an issue here or there and tracking it down after the fact was a real pain (not to mention often more expensive since I’d usually have to order it online and pay shipping). Anyway, it all just built up into me choosing to stop bothering with comics for a while.

And the new Vader series started right after ROTS and was full of prequel junk and “bleeding crystals” and all sorts of stuff that really tempered any interest I would’ve had.

But I’ve heard quite a few good things about it since then. It’s way too late to try grabbing single issues to catch up, and I kinda prefer tpb’s anyway. I dunno though, I’ve been really interested in checking out the Dark Horse X-Wing series ever since Rogue One came out so Vader May continue to wait.

I was quite skeptical about getting into Soule’s Vader series as well (especially after Gillen dull attempt), but I’m obviously very glad I did. To me it has had much the same effect as the Clone Wars series did in that it’s helped “fix” a lot of PT ideas/concepts, and it’s one of a few series that’s helped me keep faith in Marvel’s ability to make a comeback of sorts in the near future. I can’t say much about the whole bleeding crystals thing though as I personally think it’s a really cool idea, but the second story-line is much more focused and the third story-line is absolutely fantastic. The current one has also been pretty great so far (and it ties in to RO and the Lando miniseries).

PS, I’d highly recommend issue 18 as a gauge of sorts to see if the series is something you’d like to re-visit. It’s a standalone story and is IMO the best issue so far. Alternatively you could get the Burning Seas TPB, it includes #18 and what I think is the best story-line so far.

Post
#1241170
Topic
New Star Wars comics
Time

I’m surprised there hasn’t been more talk about Charles Soule’s Darth Vader series in this thread. I honestly think it’s one of, if not the greatest SW comic series ever made. It started off kinda slow, though still very good, but the last story-line, and the ongoing one, has been fantastic.

This series, to me at least, has really has made up for the overall blandness of the past two years of Marvel SW (both the writing and the art). I finally got around to reading Jason Aaron’s main SW series and was pretty pleased with it overall. But apart from a few good miniseries (mostly the Soule ones), there hasn’t really been too much to get excited about in the last two years IMO.


oojason said:

‘Marvel teases ‘Age Of Star Wars’ comics from all three trilogies…’

More info coming during New York Comic Con 2018.

https://uk.ign.com/articles/2018/09/17/marvel-teases-age-of-star-wars-comics-from-all-three-trilogies?abthid=5ba032f61f4dbfd10b000016

&

https://fansided.com/2018/09/18/new-age-of-star-wars-comics-3-reasons-to-be-stoked/
 

Does anyone actually know who’s going to illustrate it? They only mentioned Camuncooli as having drawn the banner, and It would be awesome if he drew the entire series, though I’m not quite sure how that would affect his work on the Vader series. I enjoyed Houser’s comic adaptation of Thrawn, but as far I know she’s only written one Poe Dameron annual as far as original SW stories go.

Post
#1240696
Topic
What's Star Wars like in your language?
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

That sounds like an absolute nightmare. I’m guessing they called him something else?

Nope, just “Han”, that’s why it got so confusing. We did eventually learn to just repeat the characters names in conversation to avoid saying “him/han”.

At least SW comics managed to avoid this due to capitalization. And Han wasn’t in any of the cartoons so they never had to deal with it.

As a side note; the name Anakin was often a bit amusing to me and my friends as the common Norwegian pronunciation is phonetically similar to a fairly common girl’s name (spelled “Anniken”).

Post
#1240522
Topic
What's Star Wars like in your language?
Time

Well, I’m Norwegian, but they rarely dub live-action films (that’s almost exclusively reserved for animated/children’s films), so I’ve only seen the cartoons in Norwegian. And even those aren’t particularly strange other than a few odd pronunciations of character/place names.

However, the name Han was always a problem when talking or playing SW as a kid, because “han” in Norwegian literally means “him”. So talking about SW characters could often get confusing as it was often unclear if “him” was referring to Han or someone else, because even if you were talking about Luke or Vader then suddenly “Han” would appear out of nowhere.

Post
#1237193
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

What sounds good on paper doesn’t translate properly on screen. We know that Palpatine and Anakin are friends, but we don’t really see concrete examples of Palps twisting his mind toward the dark side, or at least not enough of them. He just mentions a story in direct relation to Anakin’s Padme problem. What does Palpatine say that would make Anakin distrust the Jedi? Just a platitude about power. I don’t think that’s enough to make Anakin first of all distrust the organization he’s spent more than a decade with, let alone decide to murder them. It really is a turn on a dime, he’s goes from merely frustrated with the council specifically, to wanting to kill every single one of them, without any believable justification besides “I will do anything you ask.” The idea that Anakin ultimately thinks “the Jedi are evil” is a good one, but there isn’t much of anything to support him getting to that point in the film. What we’re ultimately supposed to believe is that Anakin would willingly kill his friends, colleagues, mentors, and innocent children, just to maybe one day find a way to save Padme. And that’s a ridiculous jump for his character to make.

I’m not sure if Anakin would consider all Jedi as “friends” or “mentors.” He personally knew only a handful, and even them he resented at times. And his disillusionment with the Jedi goes way beyond just them asking him to spy on Palpatine. This isn’t too well communicated, though is is either implied or mentioned at least once in either AOTC or ROTS. Also I don’t see why Anakin’s belief that the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic wouldn’t be a big motivator? It’s a bit weird that Lucas expects you to remember one conversation from the previous film, but I would say his “the Jedi are evil” opinion is random or out of character. As for killing the younglings, then were back at debating how the Dark Side works.

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

Post
#1237130
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

SilverWook said:

What’s hilarious is once Anakin has turned that first moral corner, Palpatine essentially fesses up that he actually doesn’t know how to keep Padme from dying.
But Anakin keeps on Sithing with the vague B.S. promise from Palpy they’ll find the secret out together. How? If Palpy didn’t learn it from Plagueis already, I don’t think he ever would.
And since Anakin’s visions revolve around Padme dying in childbirth, there isn’t exactly a whole lot of time to find the secret, if it exists at all.

Well, technically he never said he could actually do it, only that it was a Sith ability requiring the Dark Side and that Plageuis had given his apprentice all of his knowledge.

I guess, after killing Mace there really wasn’t much else for Anakin to do than hope that he and Palpatine could figure it out together. Though, I think the whole “we can discover the secret together” -thing was Palpatine’s way of guaranteeing Anakin’s cooperation until he got consumed by the Dark Side. Otherwise Anakin might have quickly turned on him.

Post
#1237120
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life?

Depends on how you see it. Palpatine was an important person to him, and he was the only person he believed could help him save Padme from death. Palpatine even points out (probably lies) that he has to kill in order to be strong enough in the Dark Side to help Padme. Not to mention that Anakin’s trust in the Jedi had been severely weakened within the last days. Or maybe even weeks? (I’ve never been able to tell how much time ROTS is supposed to cover.) At this point he genuinely sees them as a threat to democracy, peace, and his own warped ideas of how to maintain order. There’s a lot of stuff swirling around in his mind when the Windu/Palpatine fight happens, and Palpatine knows how to take advantage of it.

Plus, Anakin was never that stable a person to begin with. Seriously, watch the scene where he confesses to Padme after the death of his mother and destroying the Tusken village. He’s basically a rambling, emotionally unstable sociaopath with delusions of grandeur, very much in consistent with the stuff he does in the next film. And the closest he ever gets to any form of repentance or regret is simply “I know I’m better than this”, which can be interpreted in many ways. He talks about how Obi-Wan is holding him back, he talks about becoming all-powerful, saving everyone, cheating death, etc. And of course this all ties in with him in TPM, a slave with actual knowledge of what it means to be powerless, unlike other Jedi which were raised in comfort, and a relative degree of wealth and independence since they were infants. Even in that film he talks about Jedi being all-powerful. In AOTC he’s frustrating at not having achieved that goal, and in ROTS he gets the opportunity to actually accomplish it (in his mind anyway), and the potential death of another loved one is an extra push. And the people he’s blamed for the lack of this power essentially “proves” themselves (in his mind) to be against what he believes in. And of course Palpatine is manipulating, suggesting, motivating, all of these ideas and concepts.
(As aside note, I’d also like to point out that the only time in the PT when “adult” Anakin seems happy and somewhat stable is during the war. That’s hardly a good sign and something which the EU has since put great emphasis on.)

I’ll grant that these themes and schemes aren’t always that brilliantly communicated, but they are there, and they are generally quite consistent.

DominicCobb said:

and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

There’s very little “rational” about anything Anakin ever does. He’s all emotion most of the time.

I think this quote from Yoda summarizes most of what happens in ROTS;
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

Post
#1237109
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Post
#1236593
Topic
The Random <em>Star Wars</em> Pics &amp; GIFs Thread
Time

“Logical” is the word I’d use. I think the set itself was too big, or too long, to actually fit inside the Falcon “prop” seen in the Mos Eisley hangar. But it works well as a EU illustration/explanation of the Falcon’s layout.


As a side not; I find it funny that there’s only three beds in the same small room. Also doesn’t that imply that one of the characters in ANH had to sleep on the couch in the “rec-room” when they were going to Alderaan?

Post
#1236586
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

Look, it’s obvious we have kind of met in the middle. We both agree none of this was intentionally racist or even a good example of stereotypes in some cases. The issue for me is that enough people like myself have seen these movies and did see some quite startling stereotypes that made us uncomfortable.

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

Agreed.

Some real-life comparisons will always accompany alien characters such as Tuskens, Hutts, Neimoidians, etc. for a multitude of reasons (that we have both suggested); whether through artistic laziness, artistic imitation of old insensitive films, coincidence, or even pareidolia. But I completely agree that regardless of why/how a character (like Watto) ended up being as they are, it couldn’t have hurt for Lucas and his team to have listened to some proper feedback and then made a few minor adjustments. I’ve harped a lot on the importance of intent (though we seem to agree on that point), however I’m not completely ignoring the importance of outcome.

Post
#1236418
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

Just a small example…check out the live action tag under “film” for more on SW. These guys are pretty even handed and make room for other thoughts on the subject.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceJews

tvtropes said:

The Sand People/Tusken Raiders in the original films come across as a violent caricature of desert-dwelling Bedouin-like groups, being low-tech, desert-dwelling nomads wearing robes and head coverings. Lucas apparently intended the species to resemble the depiction of American Indians in old Wild West movies through their violent behavior toward the more technologically advanced settlers. The females also wear papoose boards. Whether Lucas realized the Unfortunate Implications or not is anybody’s guess.

This kind of goes back to what’s been mentioned earlier. Lucas said he was going for a sci-fi abstraction of old Western cliches, yet tvtropes specifically refer to them as “Bedouin-like”. That kind of comes off as projecting to me. And the papoose boards goes back tow hat I said that it’s impossible to design stuff without borrowing from real-life. But then the question is; is it wrong to borrow something real for “bad guys” when you’ve borrowed plenty of ideas and concepts for “good” or neutral characters (like f.ex. the Mongolian influences on Amidala’s wardrobe).

tvtropes said:

The Star Wars prequel films also feature the Neimoidians - a race of slit-eyed, inscrutable, unscrupulous villain aliens who speak with a vague Asian accent, wear Qing dynasty robes and hats, and threaten the galaxy with their trade routes and mass production technology. Many English-speaking critics saw the race as a collection of Asian stereotypes.

“Qing dynasty robes” seems just as applicable to Amidala as it does the Neimoidians.
(Though this female Neimodian from the EU definitely went for an obvious Qing dynasty vibe, though this would have been after the movie.)

tvtropes said:

Many critics accused Jar Jar Binks of resembling black caricatures in minstrel shows and early American cinema, highlighting his broken English, clumsiness, naivety and shuffling gait, all typical traits of minstrel characters. Physically, he has large nostrils and his “lips” make up half of his face, both traits commonly exaggerated in black caricatures. The Gungan accent, which sounds vaguely Caribbean, doesn’t help the issue, and his large floppy ears have been compared to dreadlocks. Jar-Jar’s first lines in the series, “Me-sa your humble servant,” call slavery and domestic servitude to mind. The character was voiced and motion-captured by black actor Ahmed Best, who denied any attempt to make Jar Jar a black caricature. The Gungan race as a whole, however, does not embody the trope;…

“he has large nostrils and his “lips” make up half of his face, both traits commonly exaggerated in black caricatures”. I’m not disagreeing with that statement in and of itself, but Jar Jar is after all an amphibian creature. In early concept art he has even less human-like features than what he does in the finished movie. And the whole “servant” thing is taken out of context. He’s essentially a clumsy, comic-relief version of Chewbacca, which had a life-debt to Han for saving his life.

I wonder; if Jar Jar had been played by another actor, yet had still been written the same, had the same broken-English dialogue, and the other Gungans still behaved exactly the same, would people then have drawn parallels between black caricatures and his lips, nostrils, floppy ears, etc.?

Post
#1236415
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

OK, this was kind of long and rant-y, but what I’m trying to say is that the PT accents are such a vague hodgepodge of sounds that I fail to see how they can represent any specific language in an intentional and “insensitive” manner.

And yet…I do see it and hear it. So do many others who have made their thoughts known all over the internet.

I get that. And I get that these characters can be very uncomfortable to people. But the fact that people seem to hear different things I think is very important and telling. What you hear isn’t necessarily heard by others, and where you hear Creole, some hear Indian, and so forth. I even found a forum post from 2002 where someone said that Watto’s hat made him look French.

Creox said:

I understand you and Dre quite well and really do see your side of this debate. I also can appreciate how something vague can be interpreted in many different ways. That being said, enough of us have noticed this since the TPM and the rest of the PT first showed. I haven’t talked about it in years and only brought it up here because someone else had mentioned it. In my recent trip online I have found a lot more people actually think as I do and explain it better than I have.

Some I disagree with. I agree with you that most of the trade delegation don’t sound Asian. Gunray sounds like a really bad Charlie Chan imitation…yes, it’s that bad to my ears.

Really? This guy? I don’t see how he even even barely resembles Gunray. The voice is wrong, the intonations are completely different, and Gunray actually does the grammar properly whereas Chan skips entire words.

Creox said:

I don’t think Jar Jar is this quintessential black sounding and acting character but he has definite attributes that are cringe worthy. The worst by far for me in Watto. They doubled down on his image in the second film and added a Hasidic hat and beard. He sounds JUST like an old Jewish caricature. There is NO way that someone at LA could have looked at Watto in AOTC and not seen that…no way. Does that mean I think it was meant to be racist? No but definitely insensitive or unthinking.

I will say that out of the alternatives you suggest I agree the most with “unthinking”, because I honestly don’t think it crossed any of their minds. At least not the LucasFilm people.

The thing about Watto’s hat though, which was in the TPM storyboards BTW, looks like it’s supposed to be a droid-part or something similar. It looks very much like the pit-droid heads and in the storyboards it even had an antennae sticking out of it. And the rest of Watto’s design really isn’t that illogical from an alien-design perspective. First of all Lucas originally described him (as I recall) as a Tapir with Humming Bird wings and Duck feet. Naturally as a character with a lot of dialogue and personality he had to have somewhat human features; so his face (minus the trunk) is fairly human like. His human-like eyes had to convey a large range of emotions and it helped sell the CGI as a living being. And since he was supposed to be somewhat shabby-looking character they gave him some stubble and a bit of a gut. In AOTC he’s had to sell his last slave and it seems like he’s kind of down on his luck. To show this they’ve given him a shabby beard and what appears to be a re-purposed mechanical part as a hat. Also keep in mind that he’s an amphibian living in the desert. Now did much of this end up giving him a somewhat Hasidic look? I guess? But from Lucas and the designers POV it’s not hard to see why they only saw a weird hovering amphibian with a metal-hat, which is also what a lot of people watching the film simply saw.
Anyway, I’m making way too long a post again.

Post
#1236381
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians.

Doesn’t that last sentence kinda fit with what dredre is trying to say though? Just because you recognize a similarity, doesn’t mean it was intentional (or even subconsciously based off of something). And it implies that it could have been coincidental.

Like I said earlier about how the Gungans speak; people can’t even agree what accents they’re supposed to sound like. There’s only so many sounds youn can make, and in the end its bound to end up sounding like something that already exists. I mentioned Boss Nass and Tarpals earlier. Neither follow any clear accents, but still resemble in subtle ways the speech patterns of people from vastly different cultures. Sometimes the voice actor of captain Tarpals makes the character sound Samurai-like. I don’t think the he specifically thought about Samurais, I think he was just trying to make the character sound a bit gruff and it accidentally ended up sounding a bit like typical movie-Samurais. Same things goes for Brian Blessed’s take on Boss Nass; with the odd dialogue written by Lucas, the words he choose to alter and emphasize, combined with his deep vocals, it can sound vaguely Caribbean. It’s not an actual Jamaican accent like they chose to give Kit Fisto in the Clone Wars, but some of the same “gestural” aspects are in there. Ahmed Best seemed to add some retroflex to some of the sounds, especially the D’s, and as such he can sound sort of Indian at times. It seems like an odd conscious choice, but it’s possible that he did it simply because it’s such an unnatural sound for English speakers to make (hence it sounds “foreign/alien”). When Blessed does these sounds with his deeper tone of voice, you get that vaguely South African feel.

Newt Gunray’s voice has a gruff-ness (best way I can describe it) similar to Tarpals, but the other Neimoidians don’t have it. The Neimoidian pilot (the one with the weird metal mouth-piece and goggles) speak in a more higher pitched and ‘stilted’ manner that kinda resemble Indian, as opposed to Japanese. Same thing goes for Watto, who’s accent, despite being compared to Jewish or Arab accents, also has a tendency to add little vowel sounds at the end of- or in the middle of sentences (I think this is called epenthesis), which is more commonly associated with stereotypical Italian accents. Again, this has nothing to do with imitating a real accent, but rather adding sounds and grammatical errors that makes a character sound like a non-native speaker, and in the end this is absolutely bound to resemble real accents and dialects.

Even the Geonosians in AOTC, despite being insect people, have, out of necessity, similarities to real languages, either intentionally or unintentionally. The sentence structure has a lot of glottal stops, ejectives and rolling R’s which really have nothing to do with bug sounds, but it exists in Polynesian languages and (to a lesser degree) Xhosa dialects, both of which are about as far away from familiar Western languages as you can get. This could have been intentionally, but it could easily have been a case of simply asking the English-speaking voice-actor “do the most unnatural sound you can make”.

OK, this was kind of long and rant-y, but what I’m trying to say is that the PT accents are such a vague hodgepodge of sounds that I fail to see how they can represent any specific language in an intentional and “insensitive” manner.

Creox said:

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

As for the character appearances, I think similar concepts apply there. The designers had to have borrowed from real-life simply out of necessity, but hat doesn’t mean that the Neimoidians wear Chinese-outfits, any more than Amidala is wearing a Mongolian dress and hair-style, despite that having been an inspiration. Hell, the Neimoidians’ weird hats might as well be inspired by the Pope as opposed to anything Chinese.

When making aliens, regardless of whether you borrow something intentionally, or you simply make something you think is completely made up, there’s only so much to take from, and there is only so much the human brain can imagine. And we do tend to look for patterns and similarities, so naturally, we will find cultural similarities in both the human and alien characters; their clothes, speech, mannerisms, etc. when we are watching a space-fantasy where everything has to me made up from scratch (or as much from scratch as is actually possible).

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#1236250
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Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
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Creox said:

snooker said:

Supposedly Watto’s accent is ‘Italian’

0_O

There are a few Mario-like stereotypical intonations in Watto’s speech. Even his word endings can come off as stereotypically Italian at times.

The real problem with the PT accents is that there’s only so many sounds and intonations to take from, so it’s bound to resemble something.

I’m sure Ahmed Best added some of his own to Jar Jar (or at least something he was familiar with). Then Brian Blessed interpreted Best’s accent with his own deeper voice, which results in intonations and inflections that can come off as cartoonishly Jamaican at times. Gen. Tarpals actually sounds Japanese at times. His tone of voice and inflections sound very Samurai-like some sentences, then suddenly the dialogue takes on certain South African-like sounds. Seriously, listen to Tarpals first few lines in TPM. It’s a hodgepodge of several accents.

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#1236242
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Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing. They also bow a lot, mix up their I’s and R’s. Sound familiar? C’mon guys.

Most characters in the prequels bow a lot, including the Jedi and the senators, so the Neimoidians are hardly unique in that aspect (they bow very little, and not very far down, compared to the humans overall). And quickly scanning through their scenes in TPM I couldn’t find a single moment where they mix up their J’s and R’s.

I’m not saying that there’s not vaguely Asian characteristics to the accents. Their tone of voice has similarities to traditional Samurai, or Edo period characters in general. Some of the enunciation are also similar. But to say that they walk like Geishas, have Asian-looking eyes,Asian facial features, that they represent duplicitous yellow peril stereotypes despite their made-up alien look and behavior, is just plain odd to me. If they had long nails and fu-manchu mustaches, then I’d agree that they were blatant stereotypes.

Like I said, there are some Asian similarities, or rather influences when they made the accents, but I have to agree with DreDre that the extent to which people go to compare them to Asians, or specifically Japanese (or in some cases Chinese), seems to be quite a stretch. I have the same problem with how people perceive Jar Jar. He’s become a perceived amalgamation of several contradictory stereotypes; based on very different cultures and accents.

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#1236224
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Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color.

That’s a bit of an odd statement. They are all ‘people of colour’, yes, but Indian, Jamaican and Creole are three very different cultures with noticeably different accents. I fail to see how Jar Jar can be a stereotype of all three at the same time.

Creox said:

The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Bulbous fish-eyes hardly make them look Asian. “Walk around like Geishas”? That’s a really weird comparison. can’t say I’ve seen a lot of Geishas walking around, but that’s not a comparison I’d ever make. The Neimoidians are meant to be cowardly fish-men that walk around nervously with their hands in an awkward manner.

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#1236214
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

Watto is kinda iffy though, I’ll give him that.

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#1236051
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Is the plot really that convoluted and irrelevant though? TPM has very few Palpatine scenes, and mostly sticks to the action-plot and eventually Anakin’s story (which ties in with Qui-Gon’s story). There’s not too much going on character-wise, but it is supposed to simply set the stage and establish the characters.

The only PT film where I find that the politics/plot gets out of hand is AOTC. Though even it stays very focused on both Anakin and Obi-Wan, mostly using the politics as part of the “mystery-plot” that Obi-Wan has to solve, while Anakin is off having his awkwardly written emotional conflicts. AOTC is a very clumsy story in many ways, but I’d say the fault mostly lies in awkward characterization and simple technical execution). The important thing is Anakin’s development, which despite its weird execution, it does communicate quite clearly.

ROTS has a lot of politics and Palpatine scenes, but all of it relates to Anakin’s story and character development, and clearly follows up on what was established in AOTC. I don’t see how the Palpatine scenes can be considered irrelevant to Anakin’s story, when his whole plot relates to Anakin in one way or another. There’s hardly any Palpatine scenes in ROTS that doesn’t directly or indirectly affect Anakin and move his character forward.

It’s far from perfect, but I’d hardly say Lucas forgot he was making a trilogy about Anakin as the main character and just focused on the world-building.
(Plus, in many ways, but to a slightly lesser degree, it’s also Obi-Wan’s story. Which in-of-itself is very important to Anakin’s story.)

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#1235538
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

I have just been revisiting the PT because I decided return to tackling them before trying TESB, ROTJ, or TFA. After watching them again I have to agree that ROTS is the most dramatic and is a great fast paced action film and tragedy. But I still feel that TPM got the universe right. Yes, we see the galaxy looking pretty good, but like fruit that is about to spoil, it looks good on the outside while hiding the rot on the inside. And the story goes where the characters are. The focus in the fall of the Republic so spending so much time on Coruscant makes sense.

I think one would argue though that the focus should not have been on the fall of the Republic, that should have merely been the backdrop to Anakin’s story. It isn’t quite in keeping with the other SW films to have galactic politics so far at the forefront of the story.

It was certainly a risky thing to do, but the change in themes/style is actually one of the things that I admire the most of the PT. I kind of wish that each trilogy would be as thematically and stylistically different as the PT was compared to the OT. I think it would have been much more interesting, but of course that would have created a plethora of problems from a commercial standpoint. But I do admire Lucas for doing something different.


However I completely agree with yotsuya that the PT doesn’t work as the first films in a series (for several reasons), but works fine as a follow-up story or spin-off.