Wexter

The cross-referencing was very common in the old EU. Some of it was even requested by Lucasfilm. And some of it were just retcons. The Thrawn trilogy didn’t have those references, simply because it was one of the first things written.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Dark Empire was originally supposed to deal with the Alliance capturing Coruscant after the defeat of the Empire shortly after the events of ROTJ, but Zahn refused to reference the events that were supposed to happen in Dark Empire in his then incomplete trilogy, so Dark Empire’s events were instead moved to after the Thrawn trilogy with the Empire recapturing Coruscant for a short while (which was of course incredibly convoluted).

Warbler said:

basically it was "how dare they show anything that was in the ot movies. How dare they show R2D2 and C3PO. How dare they have Star Destroyers and tie fighters and x-wings and AT-AT and such. They complained about the Vader costume. They thought the characters were flat. They actually thought it should be more PTish. Stupidest review ever imho.

Thanks! Yeah, I think that point of view is pretty dumb. How dare they do Star Wars things in a Star Wars film, really…

Handman said:

Wexter said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Alderaan said:

This video is absolutely hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odj6NHsWe00

They all sound like idiots.

Full disclosure, I really enjoyed the RLM review. It was probably the first time I felt like I was in the room with them.

Can you sum it up for those of us that couldn’t make it past the part where they all make really obnoxious noises?

They didn’t like the characters, and the standalone Star Wars movie wasn’t really a standalone movie. It’s a movie for fans, not for anybody else.

I still don’t quite understand how that warrants three grown men moaning and screaming to no end, but whatever, I guess that’s what the Star Wars fandom is turning into these days.

I think Rogue One is made for the fans. And I think that is great. Who isn’t a Star Wars fan, anyway? The Star Wars franchise is probably the most popular franchise of all time and if Disney can make money while creating some entertaining films in process, then I can’t see anything wrong with that. I am still amazed how well R1 actually turned out despite a lot of things. Folks who wanted it to fundamentaly revolutionize modern cinema are probably right to be let down, but that’s their own damn fault.

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Alderaan said:

This video is absolutely hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odj6NHsWe00

They all sound like idiots.

Full disclosure, I really enjoyed the RLM review. It was probably the first time I felt like I was in the room with them.

Can you sum it up for those of us that couldn’t make it past the part where they all make really obnoxious noises?

1. Star Wars
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. Rogue One
4. Return of the Jedi / The Force Awakens
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. Attack of the Clones

Darth Id said:
It will require MASSIVE quantities of DELICATE sensitivity.

You mean unlike your post?

ZkinandBonez said:

Wexter said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Wexter said:

The X-Wing series is my favourite along with Shadows of the Empire.

Are those books connected to the Rogue Squadron comics in any way? I see that Stackpole was a writer on both.

Also, do you know if these books connect to the Hand of Thrawn books? Wedge appears in a few chapters and he’s accompanied by some other pilots whose names I don’t recognize. One of them has Force abilities. It’s obvious that they originate from some other books, I just don’t know which ones exactly.

Not connected to the comics, IIRC. I think Stackpole and Zahn were friends and they kept referencing each others’ ideas in their works. The characters you refer to indeed come from Stackpole’s books.

Well, in that case the X-Wing series might be a good place to continue after I’ve finished The Hand of Thrawn.

How about Stackpole’s other novels? Are they worth reading?

Gotta say I didn’t finish any of the others, but all of his other Star Wars books are tied closely to other series – I, Jedi to the Jedi Academy Trilogy and the others to the New Jedi Order series.

ZkinandBonez said:

Wexter said:

The X-Wing series is my favourite along with Shadows of the Empire.

Are those books connected to the Rogue Squadron comics in any way? I see that Stackpole was a writer on both.

Also, do you know if these books connect to the Hand of Thrawn books? Wedge appears in a few chapters and he’s accompanied by some other pilots whose names I don’t recognize. One of them has Force abilities. It’s obvious that they originate from some other books, I just don’t know which ones exactly.

Not connected to the comics, IIRC. I think Stackpole and Zahn were friends and they kept referencing each others’ ideas in their works. The characters you refer to indeed come from Stackpole’s books.

The X-Wing series is my favourite along with Shadows of the Empire.

There must be more to life than this…

^ what muh hommie sez

bishabosha said:

Wexter said:

Also as far as the SE goes, the Jabba scene is an unnecessary addition to say the least, but I think the brief scene of Luke and Biggs reuniting on Yavin is a must. If only we could recover that scene in it’s entirety…

You mean this scene?

Its all there on the bluray, the same quality as TN1’s Silver Screen I’d say

This one is useless. It is a different take to the one used in the SE and it cuts in too late and cuts out too soon to replace the SE take. We do get the missing line from the red leader, but without some serious FX, it still cannot be inserted into the film.

madcrow said:

I’d personally rather see deleted scenes as extras rather than as part of a supercut. If there’s one thing the SE proved, it’s that deleted scenes get deleted for a reason.

Making a purely extended edition doesn’t make much sense to me, since it would certainly kill the pacing. On the other hand the extra footage can be used to create an alternate cut, omitting some stuff from the official release while adding other material.

Also as far as the SE goes, the Jabba scene is an unnecessary addition to say the least, but I think the brief scene of Luke and Biggs reuniting on Yavin is a must. If only we could recover that scene in it’s entirety…

Gotcha. I was going to argue that with his parents dead (or presumed dead), the Larses would be the closest thing to a family to Luke anyway, but then I remembered that Padmé’s parents would fit that description much better. 😃 Of course their existence in Lucas cannon is questionable, since they only appear in a deleted scene.

Ugh. Now we need an edit that would make Owen or Beru blood-related to Anakin. 😛

So you are proposing that the backstory should have gone something like this: Vader conceives two children, but they are both taken away before he learns about their existence – the boy is placed with someone named Skywalker, who wants to raise him as his own, but is soon murdered by Vader. I like it a lot, but it would really strengthen Luke’s motivation to go bad: not only did they blatantly lie to him, they even kidnapped him from his real family.

This would make it a very different story from what we know as Star Wars today. Even though I wouldn’t have gone this route, I fully agree, that ROTJ was the first film that really messed up the whole backstory. If only they had it planned more precisely from the start and didn’t deviate from the plans.

I would like the sequel trilogy (in the form of a good fanedit) to be compatible with the OT, in which case Leia would have to remain Luke’s sister. I still have no idea, why they needed to make them siblings in ROTJ. If they decided to trim the initial plans, they should have just dropped the sister element altogether and it wouldn’t make the slightest of difference for the overall plot.

It hardly spoils the entire rest of the story. Star Wars is not about “what ever happened to Luke’s father”. If I had to pick between the prequels pretty much as they are, only with the Vader part cleverly edited out, and a genuinely good set of films that “spoil” the fact that Vader is in fact Anakin, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second. If I could have the best of both worlds, then it is also an easy choice. The reveal is still a major moment for Luke, therefore the audience still cares, even if it doesn’t leave quite the same impact on them as it used to in 1980.

That is completely in line with my take on Anakin. Except I wouldn’t show him walking through the door, I want that to happen off screen in between the trilogies. 😃

NeverarGreat said:
by the end of the OT, Anakin is definitely Obi-wan’s apprentice:
“When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.”

‘Train’ and ‘Instruct’ are rather strong words to use about someone you just hang around with.

Perhaps Obi-Wan wanted to train Anakin properly, but Anakin got distracted by other priorities (mainly his love for the future mother of his children) and it didn’t work out. So they part ways amicably and Obi-Wan departs to search for other talented novices, as the final credits roll.

Another issue that needs to be settled: if we dismiss the idea of a centralized Jedi order, what really makes a Force user into a Jedi knight? Perhaps Anakin could be knighted for his services to Alderaan by king Organa shortly after he began learning about the Force. Obi-Wan himself received the very same honour at some earlier point in time. Shortly after that, a conversation such as this one could take place:

• Very well, Anakin, you are now a Jedi Knight.
• A Jedi? Hardly. I still have too much to learn.
• Don’t we all?

This ties in nicely to the OT:
“I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father.” Obi-Wan considered Anakin almost a full-fledged Jedi Knight, while Anakin felt he needed more training to earn the title. Vader’s dialogue further supports this notion: “When I left you, I was but a learner. Now I am the master.” and “The Force is with you young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet.”

On the other hand, Luke seems to be a lot less diligent than his father: “I can be a Jedi. Ben, tell him I’m ready. I’ve learned so much.”

NeverarGreat said:

The problem with Obi-wan’s speech is that it’s simple enough without ESB and ROTJ:

Obi-wan had at least two students, one of which was later known as Darth Vader, betraying and murdering Anakin. Simple, effective, and good motivation for Luke to become a Jedi.

Actually, if you go only by the original Star Wars, Luke’s father was never established as Obi-Wan’s student. Only Vader was. Anakin was merely ‘a good friend’. Only after the two characters merged in ESB, Anakin is soft-retconned into being Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Once again I would like to put forward the idea of dismissing the official master-apprentice relationship altogether. Anakin spends some time with Obi-Wan and is taught about the Force. Does that make him Obi-Wan’s apprentice? Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn’t. This way when Ben later refers to his apprentice, he may very well be talking about Anakin, or maybe some proper student he gets involved with some time later. It works either way.

I kinda like the idea of Obi-Wan’s apprentice (any of them 😃) being disappointed that the Jedi training is in fact quite dull and nowhere near as exciting as he hoped.

NeverarGreat said:
Alderaan was thus a dangerous planet and a marvel of the galaxy, which is one reason why Obi-wan says ‘You must learn the ways of the Force…if you’re to come with me to Alderaan.’

Interesting. I always saw Obi-Wan’s line as a figure of speach to tell Luke that he needs to learn stuff to be able to go on an adventure and save princesses, but I really like the idea of Alderaan being a psychedelic wonderland. 😃

Darth Lucas said:

You may feel like Obi-Wan is withholding some information to spare Luke’s feelings, maybe hoping to tell him the whole story later, but you never get the sense that he is outright lying to Luke.

So when does Obi-Wan learn the truth about what really happened at the volcano? And what is Anakin’s motivation to keep going as Darth Vader?

I get the idea of two apprentices. Naming the other one Darth Vader is a good red herring. But Anakin’s decision to take up Vader’s identity seems like a really difficult plot-point to write convincingly. But perhaps you have it figured out already. 😃

I don’t really like the idea of official apprenticeships that need to be validated by the Jedi order HQ. I think the Jedi who feel up to it should simply take learners as they see fit, passing on their knowledge like Obi-Wan and Yoda did in the OT. Also, I think Obi-Wan shouldn’t be a Jedi underdog. The guy was trained under Yoda, after all. In my vision, Yoda is a legend. Nobody seems know where he can be found, what he looks like or even if he is still alive (or if he ever was). But apparently he taught Obi-Wan all about the Force and that makes Obi-Wan kinda special.

Very well. I will repost an expanded compilation of some of the stuff I’ve written elsewhere. 😃

I think the PT needs to be a self-contained story with a beginning, a middle and an end. I don’t care if the ending is happy or devastating, but the alternative prequels must not wait 20 years for a conclusion to their story. I believe this basic premise is not compatible with the story scope what the official prequels presented. Ending the trilogy on Anakin becoming Darth Vader and Republic becoming Empire, while everyone is either killed off or exiled for two decades is just terrible. Instead, I can see two possible stories to tell:

========================

1. A story about how a young pilot Anakin and a Jedi teacher Obi-Wan meet, how Anakin discovers the Force and fights besides Obi-Wan in the destructive conflict known as the Clone Wars. We could see the two characters share some traits, while having some minor differences, such as political views (Anakin being a supporter of the harsh policies of chancellor Palpatine). While serving the king of Alderaan during the war, Anakin becomes romantically involved with the queen’s handmaiden and his and Obi-Wan’s journeys diverge, with Anakin staying on Alderaan and Obi-Wan moving on to train more students in the ways of the Jedi.

Not sure how Anakin’s background would be handled. Perhaps he was ashamed to have been brought up on a farm and even claimed to be an orphan, while changing his surname from Lars to Skywalker? Also I have no idea if why and how Obi-Wan changes his name to Ben. That could very well happen off-screen, between the trilogies, I think.

========================

2. Let PT tell the story of the fall of the Republic and it’s transformation into the Empire during the Clone Wars, however keep the focus on a different set of characters. Obi-Wan & Anakin could still appear as minor characters, but the audience doesn’t follow them very closely, so that when Vader appears later in the story, there is no reason to suspect he is in fact Anakin.

========================

No matter which of the two stories my alternative prequels would end up telling, they would be set in the same universe. In this universe the Jedi are not a centralized order with political ambitions. Instead they are a heterogeneous group of Force users that share some basic principles, and are generally known to be advocates of peace and harmony throughout the galaxy.

Also, the Republic has a professional army (pre-stormtroopers of sorts). The purpose of the Republic is very much aligned with the principles of the Jedi, as it is a loose federation of planetary systems that work together towards common goals. Only after the war erupts does the Republic begin its transformation into a different body, with a tighter grip. Only at this point the idea of separatism slowly begins to sound the same as treason.

The Clone Wars are in fact started by the Republic’s antagonist force – a competing and a much smaller union that decides to take on the Republic’s troops with the use of cloned army (not necessarily all the same and all humanoid). The idea of cloning living beings to kill and die in a war is generally frowned upon in the Republic. It is a recurring mystery how this unnamed adversary group to the Republic could muster the resources for such a project. Unbeknownst to all, Palpatine is in fact secretly financing the other side and manipulating its leaders to create a conflict which would help him gain more power. At the same time he is very much interested in the idea of cloning, secretly hoping that it could help him achieve immortality. It is no secret that Palpatine is in fact knowledgeable about the Force, having undergone a training of some sort in his youth. In the eyes of his supporters (a full-blown personality cult, perhaps), this experience is yet another proof that Palpatine is truly an enlightened ruler.

If anybody managed to read this awful wall of text, or at least skimmed through it, I would very much like to know what you think about these ideas. I would love to expand on it some more in the future.

NeverarGreat said:

Wexter said:

Mithrandir said:

The prequels sucked, yes. But not because they ruined ESB’s reveal.

I think we can all agree on that.

Raises hand

Um, I disagree on that. The fact that some are even saying that an alternate prequel trilogy should keep that reveal is proof of its power.

What I meant was that if the prequels were actually entertaining, I wouldn’t mind them spoiling the Vader reveal. On the other hand, if it were up to me, I would much prefer the reveal being kept a secret. George missed a chance to show everyone that he is capable of some clever writing. Instead, he has proven to be a lazy hack.

NeverarGreat said:
Anakin

Change the story so that we see his character make the same decisions as Luke. Make him motivated by friendship and compassion, as Luke is, not the lust for power. Make him a good person, and then DON’T show his fall to the Dark Side. As I have written elsewhere, simply show him fighting a final battle with a hooded figure whom he is told is Obi-wan’s other apprentice, a battle that for once, Anakin cannot win. The final scene set some time later reveals a hooded figure, implying that Anakin lost his life in a noble battle against a real flesh and blood adversary and secret student of Obi-wan, when really he lost to an apparition of his own fears, like Luke did in the cave.

I am very sceptical this could be pulled out convincingly. The audience would be left with the notion, that Anakin probably perished, but they wouldn’t know for certain and the uncertainty would probably tip them off, that something is not as the filmmaker wants them to believe. I propose ending the story long before Anakin’s transformation. Anakin could be noble and powerful, but also a bit reckless and hot headed. His character could be a mix of sorts between Luke and Han. He could be shown to be a mild supporter of Palpatine, while Obi-Wan would be more suspicious of the chancellor. If this was written well, once Vader reveals himself to be Anakin, the audience would be in shock to realize the tragic fall of the prequel hero, while at the same time kind of seeing this turn of events as plausible.

Mithrandir said:

The prequels sucked, yes. But not because they ruined ESB’s reveal.

I think we can all agree on that. If the prequels were three exciting films, nobody would care if it spoiled Vader’s reveal. On the other hand when speculating on an alternate universe versions of the prequels, why not consider keeping some secrets for the OT, such as Vader’s reveal, the Skywalker siblings, or the fact that the a great Jedi master is in fact a space leprechaun. 😃

Mithrandir said:

I still don’t understand what reason would be strong enough to completely rewrite of half the saga to keep one moment safe.

It is not about one particular moment. It is about keeping the quality of the saga as a whole. I think only a rewrite could do away with stuff that really bug me about the PT: the way Jedi were handled, what the Clone wars was really about, Yoda’s character, the visuals, the costumes, etc.

For example, I think the Tartakovsky Clone Wars cartoon was really pretty good. Sadly, I cannot fit it into my “personnal cannon”, because it obviously needed to tie in closely with the world of the prequels.

Of course, if you actually enjoy some elements of the prequels (not that there’s anything wrong with that), rewriting it from a scratch to fix some minor elements may feel really unnecessary. 😃

moviefreakedmind said:

The worst thing about all of ROTS is how Lucas attempted to tie everything into a neat bow to lead into the original trilogy, almost as though Revenge of the Sith ended just a few minutes before A New Hope began. It is pretty insulting to think that the audience wouldn’t be able to understand that maybe Padme died sometime between the two trilogies when Leia was young, but she had to die on screen so dummies wouldn’t wonder why Natalie Portman wasn’t in the OT. Same thing with Obi Wan chatting with Qui Gon’s ghost because apparently everyone needed to know how Obi Wan learned to be a ghost. I could go on and on.

Exactly!

It may be unfair to blame ROTS for the mistakes of the previous two episodes, which caused the majority of the story to be bumped into the third instalment. However, Episode 3’s big mistake is that it doesn’t serve as an ending to the prequel trilogy. The OT was a story with a beginning, a middle and a conclusion. ROTS doesn’t provide an ending. I don’t need a happy ending, really, just an ending of any kind. Instead the film ends mid-air and the story is to be concluded 20 years later, picking up exactly where the PT left off. I mean, even TPM didn’t show us everything that would lead up to AOTC and AOTC didn’t cover the transition to ROTS in great detail, but for some reason ROTS needed to lead straight into ANH. And quite poorly so.