Valheru_84

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

DominicCobb said:

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

I’m not looking to complain about anything, I’m simply stating as to what I take issue with and the reasons why. I somewhat touch on above why I have an issue with the handling of the force in the ST. Basically the ST subscribes to a more defined line of reasoning as to how the force works in the Star Wars universe and this is at odds with my reasoning and it’s really as simple as that. To actually reference a ST quote in respect to this:

RogueLeader said:

Thanks for the detailed and in depth review RL, though it just demonstrates to me how people can have such drastically different opinions and viewpoints on nearly every part of Star Wars.

RogueLeader said:
I mean, I don’t want the films to ever definitively define the Force, but the films do seem to suggest that the Force either does have a will of its own, or the Force is merely an aspect of that galaxy’s nature that can react to certain external forces that gives the semblance of conscious action, if that makes sense.

I agree that the force should remain undefined and mysterious but I’ve never seen or recognised any suggestions that it has a will or semblance of conscious action.

RogueLeader said:
I personally think it can and should be ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way, though. Think of it the way ancient civilizations deified forces of nature because they believed its unpredictability meant it must be sentient, and powerful. So either the Force is or isn’t conscious, but regardless, I think you can’t argue with the fact that the Force at least appears to be dynamic, to react to outside stimuli.

Not sure about any of that sorry except that the force does appear to be stronger in certain places, though that could also just be down to the sheer concentration of life in that area (and therefore the force which surrounds and binds all life together), creating a force “hot spot” or “pool” such as Dagobah however Dagobah itself seemed to be something else again.

RogueLeader said:
Let’s look at the prequels. Qui-Gon refers to “the will of the Force” on at least one occasion. He also believes that the Force, through the midichlorians, created Anakin in order to bring balance. So, the Force apparently reacted to the growing power of the Sith and the dark side, and created a conduit in which it can restore balance. The term “Chosen One” itself implies someone was chosen by something or someone with intent. I would also like to add that Qui-Gon should have some credibility since he was the first Jedi to be able to retain his consciousness after death.

I simply put this down to the religious like following and reverence that the Jedi Order held and built up around the force, almost worshipping it and despite Quigon’s obvious rebellious and fringe following of the order I still put what you quoted him as saying along with other things down to this dogmatic following that has existed for a thousand generations (a freaking LONG time). I never took it that the force is literally affecting events and showing signs to it’s followers in trying to communicate it’s will. It is a simply a force that exists and even the most benign and altruistic follower will still unwittingly apply their own lens and interpretations to such things in trying to gain understanding and some form of purpose to the existence of this force and their own relationship to it.

The prophecy like prophecies from any other religion is very broad and undefined, lending itself to many different interpretations or people that could be considered the chosen one. Quigon believed Anakin was the one but it is never confirmed and it could just as easily be a reference to Luke who convinces his father to return to the light who then kills the Emperor, removing the only two Sith in existence and therefore the corruption of the force, returning it to balance. I think the force is in true and absolute balance when no one is using it. If the Jedi only actually use it for defence and there are no Sith around to corrupt it’s use for evil deeds (therefore the Jedi shouldn’t need to use the force in any great amount) then generally it is going to be in a stable balance. The prophecy stems from the Jedi though so it is really talking about a balance from their perspective which essentially IS the non-existence of the Sith.

RogueLeader said:
We also hear how the Jedi’s ability to use the Force during the prequels has diminished. Regardless of what causes this, the growing power of the Sith/dark side, the Jedi’s own hubris, this clearly demonstrates that Force “power levels” are not constant, and that even the most powerful Jedi’s ability to use the Force is not a constant, static thing.

As said above, I do believe the force is stronger / weaker in different places around the universe. Maybe think of it as “pools” of force that get shallower the further out from them you get but they all generally overlap and flow into each other in a galactic network of pools of force that concentrate around mass and concentration of life, a few being particularly deep pools. I think the Jedi’s diminished ability to use the force in the PT is specifically in being able to feel and see possible futures and communicate with other Jedi and it’s simply through the sheer corrupt use of the force that is clouding the pools. We never actually see it directly affect their use of the force in combat, only in seeing through the “pool water”.

RogueLeader said:
And throughout both the prequels, the OT and the sequels we hear talk of destiny. In other words, fate, which implies that someone’s future, or a certain course of events, is predetermined. Predetermined by who? Destiny seems to be a real thing in the Star Wars universe, even if characters interpret it in their own ways. This shows that even in the OT, the idea that Force could determine one’s future existed. And again, this does not mean the Force has to necessarily be conscious, but rather another function of a potentially complex system.

I’ll quote some Terminator here - “No fate” 😛

But yeah, I don’t see anything in Star Wars that indicates a predetermined destiny for anyone and the force certainly has nothing to do with affecting fate apart from how one uses it which is a result of character actions, not some mysterious influence.

RogueLeader said:
Yoda even refers to it as his ally, which at least implies the idea that Yoda sees the Force as more than just a tool like the Sith do. Even visions, like the dark side cave on Dagobah, implies the idea that the Force is trying to show Luke something. I still believe you can interpret this as a conscious Force or the Force merely reflecting an individual’s internal thoughts and emotions. Both Obi-Wan and the Emperor refer to disturbances in the Force, meaning that outside stimuli can in fact make the Force react to it. Like throwing a rock in a water and creating waves.

The ally quote is an figurative speech, not meant to be taken literally. I actually find much of your interpretation of things to be overly literal, which is funny considering Dom’s comments on my own recent posts. I can be very literal and logical at times myself but it’s in my method of thinking, not so much taking everything at literal face value however when I see an orange I will call it an orange even if there is greater meaning to be gleaned from deeper thinking and/or in context to all the other contributing factors.

RogueLeader said:
Also this particular interaction,
Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

This also does seem to imply that the Force can act on its own, guiding a persons actions when that person lets go of their own control and allows the Force to guide them. The person concentrates on what they want to achieve, and the Force helps them accomplish that action. This also could be interpreted as a stimuli-response interaction.

Again I see this as figurative speech that equates to a subconscious and instinctual control of your actions that is derived directly from the glimpse of the future that the force gives you (Jedi reflexes and accuracy) which in the immediate future is nearly without question but those with a stronger command of the force will gain an ever so slight edge over those of lesser strength. Basically a pre-cognitive feedback loop that you surrender yourself to in order to gain it’s advantages in combat and survival.

RogueLeader said:
So, the Sequel Trilogy. The name of Episode VII is literally titled THE FORCE AWAKENS. This is further evidence that at the very least the Force is a dynamic system that can ebb and flow. Snoke even refers to sensing it in the film itself.

Let’s get to Rey. Interestingly, Rey doesn’t demonstrate any strong connection to the Force until she is called to the lightsaber. Rey is clearly Force-sensitive, at the very least. She apparently has had dreams of Luke’s island in the past, but no overt uses of the Force. But when she touches the saber, it is like something clicks inside her. Like some repressed connection has awakened. And after that, we see her use the Force more overtly in a few different ways.

And in the Last Jedi, Snoke mentions the idea of the light rising to meet the growing darkness. Luke even implies the idea that he wants the Jedi to end so the light can come from a new, purer source.

Yes, these pieces of evidence can clearly point to the idea of a conscious Force. Rey fit the bill of the kind of person the Force felt worthy to be its hero, so it calls to her both on Takodana and on Ach-To, trying to take her down the necessary path. While Snoke takes credit for bridging Rey and Kylo’s minds, there seems to be a suggestion that a connection already existed between them, possibly originating from the Force (“Why is the Force connecting us?”), especially that it still exists even after Snoke’s death.

But, this also can be interpreted as aspects of just a very complex system of nature. It has been clearly demonstrated the power of the Force and the dark side clearly can wax and wane.

Sorry but at this point I personally can’t put credence in anything based in the ST and the Ep7 title to me was only meant to be symbolic in nature, not confirmation that the force has agenda and purpose though JJ and Rian to a larger degree with Snoke’s comment (on top of it being a bandaid / stopgap to criticism of Rey’s ridiculously fast mastery of the force) seem to have taken that line and run with it, another reason for me not to like the ST as it’s sounds and feels stupid to me since it’s at odds with how I have interpreted and understood the force in the OT for 30 years, even if just in a more basic and formless “feeling” of how it works before I delved into it in recent years.

RogueLeader said:
One interpretation could be that all Force-users act as conduits for the Force, and the more people there are that channel the light or dark sides of the Force, the stronger/weaker the abilities will manifest. The Jedi at their highest numbers had a diminished ability with the Force, while the Sith, under the rule of two, were at their most powerful. In the OT, the two Sith rule the galaxy, the two Jedi are in hiding, and Luke comes into the picture and becomes a Jedi in a fraction of the time the Jedi of the Old Republic did. Then we have the ST, where it has been 30 years since ROTJ, and Force-users on both sides demonstrate incredible power: Kylo freezing blaster bolts, Snoke connecting minds (supposedly), throwing Rey around with ease and reading her mind with minimal effort, and Luke projecting himself across the fucking galaxy.

And with the Force as a dynamic, complex system, you could also argue that the light/Force is drawn to positive emotions and mindset like a magnet, which could explain the Force’s draw to Rey, and the dark side is drawn to negative emotions and motivations.

This is just another interpretation, but this is just meant to prove that the idea of the Force being dynamic, a thing that lies dormant or grows in strength, doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a conscious entity. The Force having a will of its own seems to be a clear answer, but those two things are not exclusive, and I personally believe they should never outright explain it as such.

And also, I get that the idea of a dynamic Force might not be your cup of tea, but just because that isn’t how you have perceived the Force in the past doesn’t mean that that isn’t the way it actually does in fact work. I personally think this evidence shows the Force is a dynamic system. I’m just suggesting open-mindedness, and you can find an interpretation of the Force can satisfy you, but also reflect what we are shown in all 8, soon to be 9, films. You don’t have to believe the Force is conscious, but you can still believe it is a system that acts and reacts to external stimuli (i.e. the Jedi and the Sith) that at least makes it behave as if it has a will of its own.

I can see your logic but it just doesn’t sit right with how I see it. I believe much of it can be explained away by other means and the ST simply locks in a certain line of thought that might have previously been there as one of many options but now has narrowed the possibilities and therefore it does start to remove the mystery and unfortunately it’s not compatible with my how I interpret and understand the force as presented in the OT.

Thanks for the effort in explaining your own viewpoint in such detail and I don’t mean to be so rigid myself except that I’ve never had any issue with how I understand the force and I greatly enjoy the OT with that understanding and so I see no need to change it in order to accommodate new movies that I don’t like for a plethora of reasons anyway.

Now THIS is properly awesome! For anyone that grew up with the Dark Forces PC games, be sure to take a look!

Star Wars: Dark Forces being remade in Unreal Engine 4 - https://youtu.be/gtmRsen9yh4

DominicCobb said:
The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level.

Could you please provide some examples from the OT so I might better understand your perspective. I don’t think I can recall any instances where the force itself has an impact on the characters or story, it’s alway how the characters themselves harness and use it. When you take away the human / sentient being using the force element, the dark side is not actually a literal half of the force that is evil nor is the light side “good”. It is simply “the force”, as Obi-wan explains it:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

It gives a Jedi his power, it doesn’t define or directly affect them. Flip that for a Sith - it gives them their power and has nothing to do with being evil in itself. The “Dark Side” is a concept created by force users to define and describe in a name, the seductive nature of power in itself and how it can corrupt yourself. This is what makes a Sith - a force user who has given into selfish desires to use the power for themselves instead of defence only and that of helpless innocents. They corrupt the use of the force but the actual force itself is still without moral definition or intent. To put it simply, it’s a tool and it’s how the user uses it that defines whether it’s use is for good or evil.

DominicCobb said:
So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

So what you’re saying, from my perspective, would be akin to saying that sunlight can determine between two people who the saber and what it represents belongs to. That part of the sunlight’s power is evil because some people harness it with magnifying glasses to kill ants and that the other “side” of this energy is good because other people use it to provide power and grow food for people to live on.

From just the movie perspective, what it is attributing to Rey should be shown through other means, not through some divine influence of events by the force which clouds and twists people’s understanding of it and it’s purpose in the Star Wars univers.

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

I’m only analysing it myself to provide insight into my comment that she unwittingly stole it. When I use the word “stole”, it is for efficient simplification of the idea that she doesn’t have it by consent. I’m not saying for a second that she consciously stole it from Luke, she probably doesn’t have a high regard for possessions and sentimental value due to her own background and so probably doesn’t feel or sense any wrong doing by taking it without actually checking with Luke first. It doesn’t change the fact though that he never gave her leave to take it, which equates to it being “stolen” or borrowed permanently without consent if you will.

Your 2nd and last paragraph is an interesting take on the matter, though I’m not one who subscribes to the force being sentient or self-aware to any extent and the whole “light rises to meet the growing dark” is a misinterpretation of the bringing the force into balance theme and a “quick fix” on Rian’s part to explain Rey’s insanely quick command of the force and try to satiate the fan criticism around it.

In regards to bloodlines, I’m simply using these in regards to Ben as a technical comparison on someone who does have a birthright to these things and not that it’s the be all, end all. Also I took Rey’s force pulling and catching the lightsaber in TFA as taking Kylo by surprise, especially with it already traveling in that direction it would only take a quick last second use of the force to alter it’s course to miss Kylo and go to Rey instead. It has nothing to do with the Force choosing Rey over Kylo as to who should have the saber, in my eyes THAT is plain silly and twists my concept of the force into something unrecognisable from what I grew up with from the OT.

DominicCobb said:

What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

(also aren’t Jedi not supposed to have possessions anyway?)

Hyperbolic much?

SilverWook said:
Did Luke ever go back to Cloud City and look for it after ROTJ? And if we factor in the prequels, that saber has a lot of innocent blood on it. Something Luke may have learned about later since he seems to know Darth Sidious’ history.
For that matter, how long was Maz sitting on the thing? Before Luke went missing? If there’s anybody you should be peeved at, it’s her. 😉

I’m sure Luke simply assumed it lost for all time to the depths of Bespin’s gas clouds since anything that falls into the Cloud City inner shaft seems to get collected and dumped straight into the atmosphere.

I’m not peeved at anyone, it was just a minor thing I noted about the situation. That Rey technically never asked or was given leave to just take it so as I said, she unwittingly stole it. I mean, that is the term for when you take something that doesn’t belong to you without the owner’s consent.

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment)

Lucas messed up, minimizing the importance of the saber by not making it his only one.

Ah ok. I wouldn’t say minimizing but definitely reducing the total significance it could hold. It’s a non-issue for me though in my view of the matter and how it pertains to this discussion.

DominicCobb said:

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

To my point though, if you’re going to get nitpicky about the history, Luke didn’t inherit it. Obi-Wan stole it and gave it to him without Anakin’s permission. So it’s as legitimately Rey’s as it is Luke’s by your excessively literal-minded logic.

For the duration of ANH he inherited it as far as the audience is aware anyway which is where my “certain point of view” hand-me-down inheritance comment to Wook came from. Once we learn the truth in TESB we still don’t know the proper circumstances under how it made it’s way from Anakin to Luke and isn’t until ROTS that we see how events play out. You could technically say Obi-wan stole it, much like it and the Falcon are technically Ben Solo’s but there is no moral ambiguity around these circumstances when you take everything into consideration which is why it makes sense for Ben not to get those inheritances and for Obi-wan to take Anakin’s saber. The same cannot be said for Rey taking Anakin’s saber from Luke, the rightful owner now that Anakin is actually dead. There is no actual legitimacy around Rey now having it, only psuedo-justification.

It is not my intent to be overly literal and logical about it all (it’s just how my thought process works), my initial feeling that Rey didn’t have the right to just take the saber from Luke was just that - a feeling, which contributed to my dislike for the character. It is only in discussing and trying to explain it that I am looking deeper myself and laying out my detailed perspective on why I happen to see it this way, often in response to simplistic replies that seem to brush it aside as nothing of consequence despite it having an impact on the judgement of Rey’s moral fibre (which is why I also tie the matter into her physical abuse of Luke and threatening him with the saber which at this point is not even her’s to use).

Quattro Bajeena said:

A whole trilogy of Spaceballs? Nice!

Ha! That’s funny as I’ve made pretty much the same comparison to a friend (that TLJ could be a Spaceballs remake) and his response was " that’s an insult to Spaceballs!"

DrDre said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Do you really not buy it because it’s not believable? Or do you just not want to buy it out of stubbornness because you would have preferred something different? We’re talking a 30 year gap and a lot of experience and development in the interim for Luke. Frankly, it would’ve been less believable if he hadn’t changed.

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts. I also don’t find it believable that he would see a solution in exiling himself, waiting to die, while Snoke and Kylo Ren were still at large. It is the obvious choice to try and stop Snoke and Kylo. If Luke fails, he dies, which means he will get his wish of ending the Jedi, if he wins, he can still go to an island to die. So, for me the movie failed to provide a proper motivation for Luke to be so emotionally compromised, that he would forget his Jedi training, knowing the future is always in motion, and raise his lightsaber above a young boy’s head. It also failed to explain why from Luke’s perspective letting Snoke and Kylo run free without a Jedi to challenge them would be the best solution for the galaxy. Had the movie shown that Ben Solo had hurt a loved one, I might have bought Luke’s reaction in Ben’s bedroom. Had the movie shown, that Luke tried to stop Snoke and Kylo, but failed, because he couldn’t hurt his sister, and best friend’s son, and only barely escaped with his life, I might have bought his exile, but TLJ did neither. It just says Luke’s different now, deal with it. That’s not good enough for me. Major character changes should imo happen on screen, not between films.

^ This (as usual 😉)

OutboundFlight said:

Holds no ill will

The First Order has attempted to directly kill Rey and friends multiple times. They also just destroyed a solar system. Sure he’s acting friendly but that doesn’t excuse his actions. Kylo Ren is clearly unstable… so the last thing you want to do is give him a weapon.

While Obi-Wan and Rey may have different reasons for withholding their weapons both a perfectly valid. In fact Rey is more valid, as Anakin doesn’t care about his saber.

If this is in response to my post where I say “holds no ill will”, I’m talking about Luke in respect to Rey. Either way, I don’t really understand much of your post sorry, especially if in response to myself. If you wanted to quote me and respond to specific parts I think I’d have an easier time discerning what you’re trying to say.

DominicCobb said:
So Ben is the presumed heir and birthright of the Skywalker legacy and their immense force power but this fucks with his head and he messes up, meanwhile Rey is a nobody who no one expects anything of but who manages to achieve that which was expected of Ben simply because of his lineage… maybe this was on purpose.

Maybe it was, but from what has happened so far I don’t agree that Rey deserves to be the new bearer and heir to the Skywalker legacy and what you said doesn’t explain why she (as a nobody that has only spent maybe a few hours tops with Leia and the resistance command) gets to just inherit everything that is technically Ben’s. It also doesn’t make sense in that regard to why Rey and only Rey is sent to talk to / bring the now legendary Luke Skywalker back (Chewie does nothing except fly her there and smash down Luke’s door so Rey can barge in to lecture Luke, R2 just shows up to play the hologram video from ANH). Rey has only been in the picture where the OT characters are concerned for 0.11% of that time (0-34ABY) yet takes on board Luke & Han’s mantle, gets their iconic items and is fully trusted with potentially the entire future of the resistance that is resting all it’s hopes on finding Luke. The scenario is incredibly forced to say the least.

DominicCobb said:
Doubtful he helped him construct it as it wasn’t his first saber (silly Lucas). My point of comparison was a joke. It’s ridiculous to use the word stolen in either regard. But it is a term more accurate for Obi-wan, as the item was literally in Anakin’s possession as he took it. If you’re going to get nitpicky about something completely irrelevant like who the lightsaber actually belongs to, don’t forget Anakin never gave it away, so your point is on shaky ground.

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment) since it was probably his first one that got destroyed in AOTC, though this doesn’t refute the other reasons as to why Obi-wan would take Anakin’s saber.

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

In my view, Rey never asked Luke if she could keep it and Luke never at any stage said she could actually take it and therefore my opinion of the matter is that she unwittingly stole it even though she probably wouldn’t see it that way and the movie doesn’t expect you to since you’re supposed to be rooting for Rey and not thinking to deeply. But those are the facts.

DominicCobb said:
“Something of huge sentimental value” - clearly not, at least in that moment, as he throws it away. You’re missing the vital semiotic meaning of the saber. It’s a whole lot more than just an object that someone does or does not have ownership over.

As explained to SilverWook above, you can’t simply dismiss any and all value due to a person’s immediate reaction and irrespective of the current circumstances and events leading up to that point. Him tossing it away doesn’t nullify any value he might or does still hold towards it. He could be supressing any number of feelings and memories about it at the time but later on as circumstances change, so could those feelings. Regardless of this, it’s still not Rey’s right to simply acquire his dad’s lightsaber under the assumption he simply doesn’t want it anymore. If she pretends to understand even half of the history around it, she would just leave it sitting near his shack where he will see it and leave.

DominicCobb said:
Man, I gotta circle back to this because your description of events is crazy. Let’s follow Rey’s path with the lightsaber, shall we? Maz gives it to her (who knows where she got it from), but she rejects it. Maz then gives it to Finn, who fumbles with it until he gets knocked out. Rey then grabs the saber in a pitched moment to face Kylo. From there, she searches for Luke and offers him back the saber. He takes it, but then throws it away,

Yep, all correct up till here.

DominicCobb said:
…not actually wanting it.

I don’t think this can be accurately ascertained from the information we have. Not actually wanting it in the moment? - sure. Happy to actually lose it again after it being missing for 31 years and for Rey to have it? - can’t be determined from what’s in the movie and he never gives her explicit verbal or indicative leave to take it.

DominicCobb said:
Naturally she picks it back up. But she doesn’t take it for herself, unlike Luke in ESB we never see the saber holstered on her belt. She puts the saber back in the bag where she had stored it en route to deliver to Luke. Later, while practicing with her staff, she thinks “fuck it” and takes the saber for a spin (though ends up semi-embarrassed with the results). After communing with Ben and entering the dark side hole, Luke tells her explicitly to “leave this island.” She believes Ben is her next best hope, but still once again offers Luke the saber. And, once again, Luke refuses.

Yep, all correct up till here though having only seen the movie once I had forgotten the second time she offers it to him, thanks for the reminder (I did a sanity check via a youtube clip as well 😉 ). It still doesn’t change the fact that she had no actual right to take it. Was she justified in taking it? That’s debatable and doesn’t change the fact even if justified for whatever reason that she’s still taken it without Luke’s actual approval.

DominicCobb said:
Naturally, she then takes the saber with her to the Supremacy.

Yep but the issue here is the word “naturally”.

SilverWook said:

I kind of doubt Luke is feeling too sentimental about the saber he was holding when his hand was lopped off on what was possibly the worst day of his life. 😉

I think that’s far too simplistic a view. Regardless of what happened on the day he lost it, it was his father’s lightsaber (who did save him, his friends and the galaxy at large from the Emperor in the end), it was also given to him by Obi-wan who is now gone and Luke would have many memories of his own with it between receiving it as a “certain point of view” hand-me-down birthright, training with and using it across 3+ years up till the point it was cut from his grasp (or his grasp was cut off? 😛 ).

Sure the day he lost it was pretty traumatic but that doesn’t automatically delete any sentimental or other value Luke may put in the saber and just because he throws away and later turns down the saber again doesn’t mean he wouldn’t go back at a later time or day to pick it back up. If he really wanted to get rid of it / not see it again for all time he could have just as easily force thrown it out into the ocean when Rey first gives it to him. He mightn’t have cared for it in the moment but that still doesn’t give Rey leave to just take it.

I know in my own reality that someone turning away something I offer that is rightfully theirs doesn’t give me leave to keep it without actual consent and that same moral compass extends to our perception of character actions and motives in Star Wars, no matter how far away it’s galaxy is. The fact Luke tossed it instead of handing it back to Rey could have also meant that he didn’t want anyone to have it, another reason again that without some form of verbal consent or unmistakable sign, it wasn’t Rey’s place to just take it. That fact she did because of whatever reason doesn’t undo the wrong doing of the act itself and so this needs to be taken into consideration when looking at her character along with how she hit him in the back and threatened him with the very same saber.

I’m not saying the movie wasn’t allowed to do this but it is why one (such as myself) might see it as a reason among many others not to like Rey’s character 😉

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

Sorry, not getting your drift. Please expand upon what is evidently obvious to yourself.

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

Technically yes, though Rian also could have just had Luke say something along the lines of “you keep it, it no longer holds any value to me” and hand it back to Rey instead of throwing it over his shoulder as some kind of forced joke.

In regards to comparing the Obi-wan vs Rey situations of obtaining the saber, the two are CLEARLY not the same and it’s pretty disingenuous to say so - one is keeping the saber of your now mortal enemy who is responsible for ending the Jedi order, murdering younglings in the process among other atrocities already committed by this stage. You’re not going to leave it within his force grip reach while he’s still alive. Also a Jedi’s weapon is not something to just be left laying around for anyone to find. He might even have some sentimental value in it himself if he helped his old student Anakin construct it.

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

Yeah, pretty funny how they aren’t even remotely the same…

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

I would use the word “usurper” rather than “heir”.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force who just seems to automatically collect OT character’s iconic belongings as she goes along. It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

Rey may be the legacy torch bearer Disney needs but not the one we fans deserve.

OutboundFlight said:
My issue with the current “Skywalker Saga” is that the original six aren’t about the Skywalkers. The OT is clearly about Luke, the PT clearly about Anakin… but what about Shimi Skywalker? If this was the Skywalker Saga, shouldn’t her origins be at least explained? And Leia has been tremendously underutilized by both the later OT and ST.

I don’t like it being renamed as the “Skywalker Saga” myself, instead preferring just the “Star Wars Saga” though if Disney do make another saga down the track the Skywalker Saga name will be needed to differentiate them and is probably an indicator of Disney’s future plans anyway, especially if any of the planned new trilogies end up extending past 3 movies.

The Skywalkers are the common thread throughout the saga so it is fitting even though I don’t like the saga being renamed. You said it yourself, the PT is about Anakin Skywalker, the OT is about Luke Skywalker and his father, the ST is kinda about a Skywalker descendant and his mother and uncle who are both Skywalkers and we still don’t have confirmation on Rey’s lineage. So I don’t understand how you can say “the original six aren’t about the Skylwalkers” when that’s exactly what it boils down to and George himself says Star Wars is essentially a soap opera about family problems. Just because two other Skywalker relations aren’t front and centre as the leading focus of the story doesn’t mean it breaks the common family theme throughout the saga.

I actually really don’t understand your post at all as you effectively contradict yourself in the very next sentence o.O

Hal 9000 said:

(In moviemaking parlance based on how its presented; Luke’s being real murderous in reality.)

RogueLeader said:
Yeah. The music during that scene is very heroic, but if you think about it, him threatening Jabba with death, and then killing all of his minions doesn’t exactly scream “the Jedi way”. But I think it serves the story.

What IS the Jedi way though at this stage in Star Wars history? I don’t think it’s anywhere near as defined as it was later in the PT but even there the Jedi have no problem cutting down anyone they consider an enemy that is a continued threat to them or their charges. Yoda has taught Luke “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack” yet where do you draw the line when your friend’s lives are at constant risk during a staged rescue where it’s chaotic with blaster fire going everywhere and things happening inside Jabba’s barge that you’re unaware of but you know some of your colleagues are in there, potentially fighting for their lives?

Sometimes the best defence is a strong offence and when you’re surrounded by murderous scum themselves who are only intent on killing you and your friends, it doesn’t leave many options on the table. I think Luke’s actions are exactly what you describe them as - heroic in defence of his friends. Once on the barge he doesn’t personally go hunt down and slaughter all of Jabba’s minions, instead just holding them off as Leia swings the deck cannon around. He does then fire it into the barge, but everyone on board IS an enemy and he needs to disable the barge in order to ensure they can get away without continued pursuit.

I think you can say that there is a little darkness in Luke here though since he casually force chokes two guards and is wearing all black like his father and in direct contrast to his white farmer clothes in ANH. You might even say his clothes show a transition from the white innocent naivety of ANH to grey in TESB that shows he is now somewhat tainted by loss and world experiences and he goes to full black in ROTJ after feeling his friends being tortured via the force, learning the most monstrous and evil man in the galaxy is his father, having his hand chopped off and choosing suicide over joining or being captured by Vader, then finally at the end celebration the top flap of his shirt is undone, showing it to be white underneath and that there was always and still is hope and light inside Luke despite the darkness shown on the outside and that he started heading towards in ROTJ. But ultimately his heart is in the right place and his actions during the rescue are all directed at ensuring he can get all of his friends out alive.

Also, glad to hear Ady that Boba will remain dead and I fully agree with what you say about bringing back dead characters. It not only cheapens their deaths but the deaths of any future characters because you start thinking “are they actually gone or will they just be brought back whenever it’s convenient to the writer?”.

DominicCobb said:

The possibility of an OUT release is merely a potential silver lining to what is otherwise a terrible, terrible thing.

^ This (with a couple of spelling mistakes fixed)

No matter how much we all want an official OUT release, Disney monopolising part of the entertainment industry is not a good thing.

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:
I get the feeling you think I’m of the opinion that ROTJ comes nearly straight after TESB

Sorry if I’ve responded to you before. I tend to forget what I’ve said n’ who I said it to around here anymore.

No, it’s not that. Instead I feel you simply missed my other reply a couple of posts earlier where I basically detail just by how different Luke is that I agree at least 6 months to a year has passed since TESB but the way you responded felt is as if I had said the opposite somewhere, maybe my comment about what Luke and Lando said before parting making a year implausible but I was just commenting solely on that one aspect alone irrespective of all the other factors that make it obvious that many months have indeed passed since TESB.

ray_afraid said:

There is also an issue in the line of thinking of actually being indoctrinated as one of the gang as then at some point Lando would have had to carry out acts that proves his worth to his employer and colleagues which likely then makes him not really suitable anymore as an honorable and trust worthy member of the rebellion (he’d probably have blood on his hands).

R1 shows that dirty deeds aren’t something the rebellion is above, nor should they be.

That may be so but I doubt it would be viewed in the same light by Luke, Leia and Han (or Chewie for that matter 😛 ) especially when there would already be trust issues hanging over from Lando’s initial betrayal at Bespin. Plus it really depends on the specific deed and the characters themselves. I don’t see Lando being remotely the same as Cassian for instance or capable of such acts in view of the “bigger picture” which in this case, is not the galaxy but the life of his friend who I doubt would be ok with Lando having murdered / put to death locals or done other despicable deeds in order to affect a rescue.

Plus I think at this stage in the saga story the Rebellion need to be a clean and shining example to the galaxy now that they’re out in the open, as opposed to the early days of trying to start the Rebellion while remaining hidden and sink to low acts to keep it that way or get an edge on the Empire lest they be snuffed out for all time…

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

Anyways, I think we’re a bit off topic.

Hm. Good point. *Fist bump

Yes, lets move on 😃 (though I agree Dom that 3 years really is implausible and I think people just mistake or confuse the real 3 year gap between movies for the time gap in the story)

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:

They pretty clearly spell out that Jabba has Han and that they will be meeting at a distant point in the future at the rendezvous but to have planned it for a full year away seems a bit unplausable. All I can think and read into it myself is that it took a lot longer to get everything in place that they planned

For Lando to create a character, gain trust in Jabba’s crew and become “one of the boys” had to take same time. We’re talking about the galaxy’s greatest gansta’ leading the galaxy’s greatest gang. You don’t just walk into that place, buy the room a drink and get accepted.
Luke has clearly advanced in skills. There’s certainly some time tied up there.
The entire Rebellion has evaded the Empire, regrouped and found a temporary place to hide while also fining out about the new Death Star, examining the layout and finding a way to destroy it.
A year seems easily plausible to me.

I get the feeling you think I’m of the opinion that ROTJ comes nearly straight after TESB, where in fact I grew up always feeling that a not insignificant amount of time (such as a year or more) has passed between the two because of what I listed further above (you might want to check a few posts back where I basically cover what you said about Luke in greater detail, so that point is moot in regards to responding to my view on time elapsed) and many other things that just gives you a general feeling of time having passed without having to try and specifically quantify it.

It’s only when getting into discussion about it that I’ve then tried to nail down a time period for myself based on how I interpret the movies and other information I have since learned (or been reminded of) and it’s because of what Luke says to Lando at the end of TESB that alone makes me now say a year sounds implausible as to what they had planned themselves then and there but obviously other factors have blown out the rendezvous date from what they probably meant to only be 2-3 months from when they parted ways. Which in the end is probably a good thing otherwise theoretically Luke wouldn’t have been the same Jedi Knight we see in ROTJ and probably couldn’t have pulled off the rescue.

So I don’t dispute any of what you just said, however I don’t think it would take a full year for Lando to infiltrate Jabba’s palace. We’re not to know as the theatrical audience how big Jabba is within the lore so I don’t think the “galaxy’s greatest gansta’ leading the galaxy’s greatest gang” has much stake in the plausibility of Lando’s infiltration.

There is also an issue in the line of thinking of actually being indoctrinated as one of the gang as then at some point Lando would have had to carry out acts that proves his worth to his employer and colleagues which likely then makes him not really suitable anymore as an honorable and trust worthy member of the rebellion (he’d probably have blood on his hands). The fact he is hiding his identity behind his face guard to me confirms that it is an actual infiltration that runs the risk of being found out at any time through recognition that he isn’t actually one of them and this is why I don’t buy that its part of the reason it has taken upwards of a year to conduct the actual rescue itself.

^ Ah yes, thanks for reminding me of that bit. It’s obviously been too long between viewings of the OT for me 😛

They pretty clearly spell out that Jabba has Han and that they will be meeting at a distant point in the future at the rendezvous but to have planned it for a full year away seems a bit unplausable. All I can think and read into it myself is that it took a lot longer to get everything in place that they planned for and likely had other imminent “imperial” issues to deal with at times before they could head off to rescue a lone rebellion member (when looking at it from a Rebellion leadership position).

Here is the clip for anyone else interested in revisiting what Luke and Lando discuss before parting ways at the end of TESB:

https://youtu.be/96DEWl3Vg70

So much win in the last 5 posts 😄

MalàStrana said:

Sifo Dyas said:

Luke did not train between movies, because he would have been back on Dagobah, but he wasn’t.

He doesn’t train with Yoda, it doesn’t mean he didn’t train at all. Pretty sure Yoda’s training wasn’t about choking people or using mind tricks 😉

(has he found that in the jedi books we later see in TLJ ? Or a Sith holocron he got somewhere ? Who knows…)

^ This

In TESB Luke:

• has to focus incredibly hard to pull his lightsaber to himself in the Wampa cave.

• is still pretty amateur with the lightsaber, being disarmed only 30 or so seconds after beginning his fight with Vader.

• is clearly rash and inexperienced, surviving Vader’s trap on instinct and raw ability.

• can’t hold his own as he gets toyed with constantly by Vader.

In ROTJ Luke:

• has had time to construct a new lightsaber (not likely an easy or quick task, especially considering there’s no one around to teach him).

• has learned far greater control of the force now and new abilities, one which he would have had to figure out on his own as Mala pointed out. He uses these effortlessly, including when he whips his lightsaber up into his hand from the Emperors chair.

• has far greater control over his lightsaber, so much so that combined with his new focus with the force that he can consistently while under pressure deflect/reflect laser fire now. He holds his own against Vader and ultimately beats him.

• comes across from the get go as a changed person, one that is now calm, focused and confident in his control of each situation. He has matured and wisened in many ways, people clearly look to him for leadership now where before that was Han and Luke was the whiney young guy. It is now Luke the Jedi Knight calling the shots.

To me it is pretty clear a not insignificant time has passed between TESB and ROTJ just based on Luke alone. I can’t remember but is it even known to any of the rebel characters where Han has been taken? I can’t recall a time in TESB where any of them would learn about this, so on top of the rebel forces needing to regroup and get themselves in order again after the evacuation from Hoth, the gang also had to try and find out which system, planet and group had Han after probably initially presuming the Empire to have him.

So I don’t have any problem with feeling that anywhere from 6 months up to a year has passed since TESB which is in line with the seemingly generally accepted year between TESB and ROTJ.

The music in both ST movies has very much been another let down for me. TFA often seemed muted and more in the background, often going almost unnoticed at times which is unusual for Star Wars and TLJ just didn’t seem to have anything great going for it, nothing stood out except the overuse of character leitmotifs whenever they were on screen (at least as far as my memory serves me).

Listening to the actual TFA score on CD is a different story and is a pretty good listen though it’s still my least listened to Star Wars score and I don’t think I’ve listened to it at all since TLJ.

^ I don’t think a movie’s relative position to the OT has anything to do with it’s success but I do find the fact that the current success of each movie creates that wave pattern very interesting, assuming of course that IX will be a good movie or at least better than TLJ and so create that returning up swell in the pattern.

NeverarGreat said:

The TLJ soundtrack is definitely one reason it’s so hard for me to fully appreciate that movie. Whenever it seems like Williams will fully commit to a new theme there is some sort of rug-pull which interrupts the flow.

I wonder if that’s got anything to do with Johnson, TLJ showed him to be a serial rug puller 😛