Valheru_84

NeverarGreat said:

Rey being a nobody is the one ‘twist’ that actually worked in TLJ, so that would be a nah from me.

I would have been completely fine with her being a nobody if there were valid reasons and demonstrations as to how she became so powerful and proficient in the force over the course of a week or two.

Because they dont, she needs SOME sort of lineage to help explain it but even then its pretty weak sauce though it could have worked well in conjunction with her instead having raw and untrained power that is unwieldly and actually dangerous to both foe and friends and she needs the training and discipline that either Luke, Snoke or Kylo could give her to help her learn to control it.

The arguments of “what the ST needs” dont wash with me as its at the expense of the OT and those that understand its universe rules as a result of having watched it for the past 40+ years. If they want to change them and how the force works, there has to be real justification that makes sense and retains context to the original rules. They don’t just get to say “this is how it works now” and leave it at that, they have to earn the changes.

I dont doubt you on that one and Im not on here anywhere near as much as I used to be.

SilverWook said:

When the analysis is longer than the movie, I have to wonder if that way lies madness. Even the loony Room 237 is shorter than The Shining itself!

Not at all and when a movie has this many issues and on so many levels (whether you agree or not that it does is beside the point since its the opinion of the reviewer that determines the video content), the analysis is bound to be longer than the movie itself. It all just depends on how thorough you want to be in breaking it down on screen, explaining it for those who the issue may not be apparent for and how this makes you arrive at the opinion you hold.

No probs RL and yes 3hrs is still a long watch but if youve watched any of the Red Letter Media Plinkett reviews then it’s nothing out of the norm. Its also structured and broken up enough that its not just one massive slog.

Most of his issues seem pretty straight forward and logical to me, some I’m sure are also added just for laughs as a lot of the video is tongue in cheek and playing up the Plinkett grandson character.

If you’re someone though that likes or loves the movie and cant listen to valid criticisms without getting angry then you’re not likely to find any of it funny and I’d probably recommend you don’t watch it. (That’s more of a general statement for anybody looking to watch them)

LOL! Jedi am a Rock - The Last Jedi vs Simon & Garfunkel

https://youtu.be/2dxCzrIu8xs

I think this very well made two part review and critical analysis of TLJ is all that will ever need to be said about the movie and it’s list of failings which at this point doesn’t seem to even have an end in sight. It’s in the vein of the RLM reviews with the reviewer even affecting the same Plinkett drawl and similar humour while claiming to be his grandson:

Part 1: https://youtu.be/9Ugp8F7KefE

Part 2: https://youtu.be/yKT2LFtjI24

It is lengthy though no where near Mauler’s 3 part 5hr+ marathon which is great but a lot of time to sink into the deconstruction of a movie and the level that Mauler take’s it to nearly loses it relevancy anyway.

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Pretty much all of this ^

It’s amusing how people that defend TLJ accuse the detractors of cherry picking but then do exactly that themselves in defending it. Someone comments generally about Rey’s unbelievable command of a ship she’s never flown before (if she’s ever flown at all??) and so the defense is to post a gif of her crashing in the first few seconds…before she’s pulling flips and advanced manoeuvres in the middle of a star destroyer wreck?

Wow, I think that’s one of the clearest examples of the bluray issues Ive ever seen. Makes if night and day to see the amazing improvement a regrade can make.

ziggyonice said:
Didn’t she say something like that in The Last Jedi? Does any of her dialogue reference dreams or flashbacks or anything that might be edited to fit the context of the scene? Just trying to find ways to piece it together.

She says something like “in a dream” to Luke in regards to having seen the inside of the tree before where the original Jedi texts live. Not sure how you’d work it into the scene in question though and it’d feel a bit repetitive that she conveniently see’s all these things in her dreams.

^ That works amazing well and actually gives the film a bit of breathing time for the audience after the big hits have just hit and seeing the character’s reactions and emotions.

Was very impressed with what Hal’s reconstructed edit was able to achieve and your one seems to be taking it to new un-imagined heights. Keep up the great work!

As a side question - How would you say your edit compares currently to Digmodification’s “Heir to the Force” TFA edit? His is highly recommended as a compatible companion edit to ForceGhostRecon’s TLJ “Clean Cut” or “Last of the Jedi” purist edition edits but your eventual edit sounds like it will be a strong contender as a definitive pick and it is already compatible with FGR’s edit as well due to your edit ending on the Falcon going to hyperspace.

SilverWook said:

If we’re going to beat that dead Taun Taun again, we should take further discussion elsewhere.

No probs though seeing she still has the saber and I assume the books from which she’s probably now read once and become the mightiest grand master jedi that ever lived, it still seems relevant though I did mean to initially post in the TLJ thread. I’m not really interested in going on about it though, I was just pointing out the “appropriated” Jedi texts to Dom when it clicked earlier tonight for some reason.

ZkinandBonez said:

Valheru_84 said:
It is not my intent to be overly literal and logical about it all (it’s just how my thought process works), my initial feeling that Rey didn’t have the right to just take the saber from Luke was just that - a feeling, which contributed to my dislike for the character. It is only in discussing and trying to explain it that I am looking deeper myself and laying out my detailed perspective on why I happen to see it this way, often in response to simplistic replies that seem to brush it aside as nothing of consequence despite it having an impact on the judgement of Rey’s moral fibre (which is why I also tie the matter into her physical abuse of Luke and threatening him with the saber which at this point is not even her’s to use).

When exactly did Rey “steal” Luke/Anakin’s lightsaber. It was offered to her by Maz, and she rejected it. It was then given to Finn for a while, and then she picked it up to protect him (and herself) from Kylo. There’s the deleted scene where Maz gave it to Leia, who clearly let Rey keep it as she later traveled to Acho-To to return it to Luke, who promptly threw it away. At that point I’d say she has as much a right to keep it as anyone else.

“Steal” is I agree probably too strong a word. Acquire/keep without consent is more like it but doesn’t help Rey’s image. Regardless of what Maz said and what happened in between then and finding Luke, it’s been returned to it’s rightful owner who at no point actually gives her leave to take it. Just because he throws it away doesn’t automatically mean he’s happy for Rey or anyone else to just take it off the island and keep using it. The fact she wacks him over the head right before threatening him with his own saber that was his father’s before him is just all kinds of wrong. She then proceeds to keep it for herself without so much as a “by your leave” to Luke and also goes and just takes the Jedi texts at some point before flying away.

I’m not the one who wrote the story. Just pointing out what I see as factual wrong doings by Rey which affects her character in a negative way on top of a number of issues I already have with her.

SilverWook said:

Yoda can make freaking lightning strike a tree, so I presume he was cool with her taking the books.

I don’t understand this logic.

SilverWook said:
At least she didn’t pinch the saber while the original owner was slowly burning to death like that kleptomaniac Obi-Wan. 😉

Context is important. I feel like we’ve already covered this ground the last time we spoke about it.

nl0428 said:
I think that Rey took the sacred Jedi texts because, while Luke preserved them, he wasn’t putting any use to them. Rey is still young and has much to learn, despite having more patience than Luke did in the Original Trilogy.

I don’t doubt this but it still doesn’t change the circumstances. Stealing is stealing, no matter the justification.

…you (I) make a good point.

F(inished)TFY 😉

NeverarGreat said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:
What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

Valheru_84 said:
It is not my intent to be overly literal and logical about it all (it’s just how my thought process works), my initial feeling that Rey didn’t have the right to just take the saber from Luke was just that - a feeling, which contributed to my dislike for the character. It is only in discussing and trying to explain it that I am looking deeper myself and laying out my detailed perspective on why I happen to see it this way, often in response to simplistic replies that seem to brush it aside as nothing of consequence despite it having an impact on the judgement of Rey’s moral fibre (which is why I also tie the matter into her physical abuse of Luke and threatening him with the saber which at this point is not even her’s to use).

Hey Dom…you remember how I made that point a while back how I felt that Rey had no right to take Luke’s lightsaber that he inherited from his father? - I’d completely forgotten that Rey also took the original Jedi texts! So while there are some shades of grey and certain points of view (if you will) that can be debated about the whole saber matter, I think the Jedi texts are pretty much a clear cut 2nd example of Rey’s tendency to just take things that don’t belong to her (ie. stealing). Whatever justifications can be made that do ring true, it doesn’t change the circumstances under which she took things that weren’t hers to take.

She’s just indefinitely borrowing things that would otherwise gather dust.

I’ll remember that for when the authorities ask me about taking some rich guy’s classic supercar that has a layer of dust from never being driven 😉

Btw didn’t realise I’d posted that reply in here, it was meant to be in the TLJ review thread.

DominicCobb said:
What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

Valheru_84 said:
It is not my intent to be overly literal and logical about it all (it’s just how my thought process works), my initial feeling that Rey didn’t have the right to just take the saber from Luke was just that - a feeling, which contributed to my dislike for the character. It is only in discussing and trying to explain it that I am looking deeper myself and laying out my detailed perspective on why I happen to see it this way, often in response to simplistic replies that seem to brush it aside as nothing of consequence despite it having an impact on the judgement of Rey’s moral fibre (which is why I also tie the matter into her physical abuse of Luke and threatening him with the saber which at this point is not even her’s to use).

Hey Dom…you remember how I made that point a while back how I felt that Rey had no right to take Luke’s lightsaber that he inherited from his father? - I’d completely forgotten that Rey also took the original Jedi texts! So while there are some shades of grey and certain points of view (if you will) that can be debated about the whole saber matter, I think the Jedi texts are pretty much a clear cut 2nd example of Rey’s tendency to just take things that don’t belong to her (ie. stealing). Whatever justifications can be made that do ring true, it doesn’t change the circumstances under which she took things that weren’t hers to take.

So the fact that Palpy has been in nearly all the movies now in either person or referenced (& pending what IX reveals he may even get tied into 7 and 8 retrospectively), should we now call it “The Sith Lord Saga”?

Or maybe “Memoirs of a Dark Emperor” or “Palpy and the Skywalkers” or “Die Hard 9.0 - Palpy gets back!” 🤣

Disney+ “Original”

Nice originality there Disney LOL

KurganX said:

So has Adywan decided that both the blu-ray prequel trilogy and Disney Star Wars are “canon” and his versions of OT will be brought more in line with them?

If so, then we don’t need to explain training, the Force just “gives” skills, abilities, etc. to whoever needs them (light or dark) when the time is right. Touching a lightsaber is enough to make you proficient with it against a master who has trained for decades. People can cut themselves off from the force and not use it for ages and then whip out a deus ex machina. And the Jedi knowledge fits on a small shelf of a few leather bound books, all those holocrons in the EU and “books” in the Jedi Archives were mostly technical manuals and poetry, I guess. Plot contrivances, characters acting inconsistently (even droids), and absurd coincidences, are all just “the will of the Force,” now. Even poor memories and incessant lying can be hand-waved away in this manner, at least that’s what we were told when TFA came out.

I hate TLJ myself and can no longer enjoy TFA as a result but where is ^ this coming from? What does it have to do with Ady’s edit or anything that has been said recently? Maybe if you quote a post or provide some context as to why you think Ady is shifting towards anything other than what he wants to do with his edit?

LOL!

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:

^ I actually thought “fair enough” in the ranking and comments on the prequels

But:

OutboundFlight said:

1. Attack of the Clones… this is everything that Star Wars represents.

No way that’s “fair”. 😄

It could be from someone’s “certain point of view” 😉

By saying fair enough, I’m agreeing that they could hold that view for reasons valid to them even if not so for myself.

I do understand the disbelief though 😛

OutboundFlight said:

Valheru_84 said:

^ I actually thought “fair enough” in the ranking and comments on the prequels, thinking you’d grown up with them and are one of the few prequel lovers on here brave enough to tell it from their perspective. But as soon as I saw the ANH ranking and first sentence I knew it was an AF joke 😉

This has spawned some non-joking discussion
I did grow up with the Prequels, with ROTS having a significant influence on me. I do enjoy the overall story of these films, but the acting, set design, and pacing kills it for me. As an adult, I can barely take some of the choices (I don’t like sand) as serious. Yet I enjoy the era. The PT books / shows / games have always been my favorite. Not that I’ve ever disliked the OT era- I’ve just always viewed the characters, planets, and conflicts of the prequels more interested.

So much era ranking would be:

1. PT
2. OT
3. ST

While my actual film ranking is the April Fools one in reverse.

Yeah nice, though I could never rate any of the ST movies above any of the OT movies and the only way I could rate them even above the PT would be on a technical level (and maybe themes though I’m never given a reason to care for them) but the PT for me still rate well above the ST on story, characters (wooden acting and cheesy lines aside), emotional involvement and musical score among other things.

I also grew up on the prequels but that was in my teens and adolescent years after already growing up on the OT for many years beforehand and a few things already annoyed me about the PT and the list only grew when revisiting them as an adult, whereas the OT with some obvious faults still may as well be perfect to me now as they were when I was a child. With some great PT fan edits to hand now I still very much enjoy a watch through of them as well, especially since they’ve always held a place in my heart, cringe iducing warts and all.

I also greatly enjoyed a number of PT games on the PC at the time that I still have fond memories of playing with my brother and friends.

^ I actually thought “fair enough” in the ranking and comments on the prequels, thinking you’d grown up with them and are one of the few prequel lovers on here brave enough to tell it from their perspective. But as soon as I saw the ANH ranking and first sentence I knew it was an AF joke 😉

^ Cheers for the clarification Dom, though I guess I still don’t understand what you are trying to say then when talking about the force and Rey getting chosen over Ben. I assume your initial post was in response to the below part of my post where I was replying to RL:

Valheru_84 said:
Also I took Rey’s force pulling and catching the lightsaber in TFA as taking Kylo by surprise, especially with it already traveling in that direction it would only take a quick last second use of the force to alter it’s course to miss Kylo and go to Rey instead. It has nothing to do with the Force choosing Rey over Kylo as to who should have the saber, in my eyes THAT is plain silly and twists my concept of the force into something unrecognisable from what I grew up with from the OT.

DominicCobb said:
To clarify, what I meant is that the force has always had more meaning in the story than just as a plot device. There’s a metaphorical aspect to it as well. In the original film, the force represents Luke’s calling, and ultimately his potential to do great things. It’s not all about the literal interpretation. Luke turning off his targeting computer and acting on instinct is what lets him succeed in his mission. The literal interpretation here is that acting on instinct helps Luke better utilize the force. But the non-literal messaging is that Luke succeeds because he trusts in himself and his instincts. So the force is an agent for representing meaning in the film beyond the literal.

Hopefully this makes more sense now.

I understand what you’re saying above in your clarification but all of that is still derived from character actions, there is never a point where characters are directly affected by something the force is doing. Whereas the ST would have us believe that events are being influenced to some extent by the force which is completely counter to my understanding of it.

In dissecting your initial post to try and garner your intended point, I think I can now see that you’re simply saying the force is actually stronger in Rey during this scene which is why it goes to her instead (though I still just put it down to her hijacking Kylo’s in flight force pull, surprising him who didn’t consider her a threat in any way, especially seeing that they were in a stalemate trying to force pull the saber in TLJ) and that this is trying to say something about the two characters. But why is Rey stronger here? Why does that then mean that the saber and what it represents “belongs” to Rey? What do you actually see or understand in the movie that gives you this impression?

Your initial post still seems to somewhat support what RL is saying in that the force is influencing these events because you are attributing the decision to the force. If it’s an attempt by Rian to imply a metaphorical message then he has gone about it arse about which is why it doesn’t make sense to me.

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

No. You misunderstand me. My analysis is from a meta perspective. I’m talking about all the movies, not just the ST.

Well then you’ve lost me. You keep shifting the goal posts of what I am supposed to get and when I respond to it you just say I’m not getting it, to the point I no longer even know what we’re talking about anymore. Below is our discussion so far, please let me know where I am going wrong:

DominicCobb said:

The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level. So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:
The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level.

Could you please provide some examples from the OT so I might better understand your perspective. I don’t think I can recall any instances where the force itself has an impact on the characters or story, it’s alway how the characters themselves harness and use it. When you take away the human / sentient being using the force element, the dark side is not actually a literal half of the force that is evil nor is the light side “good”. It is simply “the force”, as Obi-wan explains it:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

It gives a Jedi his power, it doesn’t define or directly affect them. Flip that for a Sith - it gives them their power and has nothing to do with being evil in itself. The “Dark Side” is a concept created by force users to define and describe in a name, the seductive nature of power in itself and how it can corrupt yourself. This is what makes a Sith - a force user who has given into selfish desires to use the power for themselves instead of defence only and that of helpless innocents. They corrupt the use of the force but the actual force itself is still without moral definition or intent. To put it simply, it’s a tool and it’s how the user uses it that defines whether it’s use is for good or evil.

DominicCobb said:
So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

So what you’re saying, from my perspective, would be akin to saying that sunlight can determine between two people who the saber and what it represents belongs to. That part of the sunlight’s power is evil because some people harness it with magnifying glasses to kill ants and that the other “side” of this energy is good because other people use it to provide power and grow food for people to live on.

From just the movie perspective, what it is attributing to Rey should be shown through other means, not through some divine influence of events by the force which clouds and twists people’s understanding of it and it’s purpose in the Star Wars univers.

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

DominicCobb said:

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

DominicCobb said:

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

I’m not looking to complain about anything, I’m simply stating as to what I take issue with and the reasons why. I somewhat touch on above why I have an issue with the handling of the force in the ST. Basically the ST subscribes to a more defined line of reasoning as to how the force works in the Star Wars universe and this is at odds with my reasoning and it’s really as simple as that. To actually reference a ST quote in respect to this:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

No. You misunderstand me. My analysis is from a meta perspective. I’m talking about all the movies, not just the ST.