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Update on my ranking post TLJ viewing:
.Val
I’ve signed the petition.
Not because I believe for a second that Disney will “strike Ep VIII from the official canon” nor do I think this is the right course of action (I mean, done is done. The movie is out there and is now part of the saga however unfortunately) but hopefully it might get their attention somewhat that they can’t just do whatever the f##k they want with SW and expect fans to just accept it and keep paying for it. Below is one of the comments from the petition that I can definitely sympathise with:
"I stand with my fellow “Star Wars” fans in expressing a deep disappoint and revulsion of how Rian Johnson and Disney have defiled many of the beloved characters in “Episode VIII.” All other criticisms of the film aside, this is a film that ignores decades of character development, world building and mythology in favor of cheap moments of sensationalism and shock value.
This film feels less like a “Star Wars” movie and more in line with “Guardians of the Galaxy” with its poorly-timed humor and shallow character development. But the greatest sin of all is putting words in Luke’s mouth that feel completely out of character. I did not mind Luke’s actions in the film. In fact, I really liked the idea behind what Johnson was trying to do. However, a complete lack of believable motivation and horrendous dialogue made Luke feel like a cardboard cut out, instead of the wise and hardened warrior we left in “Return of the Jedi.”
I do not seriously expect Disney to strike “Episode VIII” from canon, but as a life long fan, this has made me question whether I will go and see any of Disney’s “Star Wars” movies in the future. Poor decision making, horrible direction and writing. Johnson has killed Luke twice with this film. A grave disappoint for many fans."
It was around 23,000 signatures when I first opened it a couple of hours ago and is now rapidly closing in on 26,000. The numbers pale beside how many people would have gone to see the movie but it’s still a sizeable subset of the fan base all gathering under the same criticism and shoutout to Disney: https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon
This movie has majorly pissed me off if anyone can’t tell…
.Val
Separate to my first post a couple of pages back, I have to say I’m really not impressed with what Rian Jonhson has done in this movie. It feels like he set out to specifically do the opposite of everything expected from audiences and from what JJ setup with TFA regardless of whether it fit or was good for the story.
I mean, everyone knows Carrie Fisher has passed away and if ever there was a moment to work this into the story in regards to Leia, it was to either have her die in the bridge blowout or through self sacrifice by going down with the ship, making the ultimate sacrifice with the ultimate display of neverending defiance against the Empire, FO and all who would oppose freedom in the galaxy by taking out Snoke’s ship with her last act of free will while she lived. I mean the later option would have been the perfect way to send her off and be remembered, it would have represented everything Leia has fought for up till this point and fed straight into sowing the seeds of renewed hope in the galaxy, in joining the fight against these oppresive forces.
But because RJ wants go against everything even reasonably expected, he will lead you up that expected path and then at the last moment turn it on it’s head as a cheap trick just to get a shock out of the audience and prove some personal point about his ability to do what he wants with HIS Star Wars movie, rules / canon, consistency and established story plot and arcs be damned.
There are only a few things that I actually hate when it comes to SW:
What GL did to the OT with each subsequent SE release and therefore GL himself to an extent.
GL furthermore because of his crusade to wipe the OUT from existence while being a massive hypocrite due to what he said initially on the matter of film preservation.
What RJ has done with TLJ. Disney can be included in that to an extent as well as many of the changes in TLJ feel like they are the result of corporate agendas.
I don’t include the PTs in that list because while they are bad movies, there’s nothing about them so bad that I actually feel hate for nor do they feel like they go out of their way to spit in the face of everything that has come before them. RJ on the other hand feels like he purposefully turned his back on the established saga and fan base just to help Disney spawn a new and never ending age of Star Wars movies, video games and toys for the masses.
Going from TFA to TLJ feels like a big “f##k you” from RJ and in turn I say to him and Disney “No, f##k YOU! No more! I am finished with SW if that is it’s future…”. I have been considering a second viewing of the movie simply to try and resolve my own conflicts one way or another sooner rather than later (ie. waiting for home release) but I will not be watching any more SW movies in the cinemas and any home releases will be purchased at basement bin prices out of curiosity.
.Val
Haven’t had a chance to read the through the thread yet, but my basic list of changes would be:
remove a lot of the ill fitting and tone affecting humour
remove the Canto subplot, it was essentially pointless and massively bloated the film’s runtime needlessly. There were also far too many PT like elements that made me think George did some consulting work in this area of the film…
replace ST puppet Yoda with OT puppet or even PT CGI Yoda. There was only about 2-3 seconds of that entire scene during the close up when he actually looked very close to how Yoda looks. The rest of it had me holding my head in the cinema as I thought back to the CGI Tarkin and Leia in Rogue One…
edit Yoda’s dialogue to be dolled out slower, it feels very rushed in the movie and you expect him to be breathless at the end of it and this leads to it not really feeling like Yoda talking along with him looking very odd to begin with.
remove most of the porg footage. I don’t mind seeing them as local wildlife but they very quickly get annoyingly distracting to the main plot and again feel like an echo of the PT resurfacing in TLJ.
add some subtle “space dust” into the chase scenes to give a better sense of movement. Currently it feels like they’re moving at the speed of tugboats to almost not moving at all with no nearby point of reference to judge it against. The fact they are matched for speed is fine with the gap staying the same but these ships should be capable of some significant speeds in regards to the space travel they are required to do even if just in orbital manouvures, some indication of movement (in respect to their size) through space during the chase scene would be appreciated.
depending on how they handle Carrie’s death in IX, maybe have Leia actually die after the bridge blowout rather than turning “super woman”. I feel this was a lost opportunity and Rian Johnson only didn’t do it due to it being the obvious expectation with him doing the exact opposite to all such sitations in this movie as a big “fk you” to JJ and the audience. Also I know it’s SW but there still needs to be some consistency in regards to the threat of space otherwise the series may as well regress into pure fantasy rather than sci-fi if there are no visible affects from exposure to the vacuum of space for that long and the fact no airlock was required to bring her back on board. You do of course lose the later Luke and Leia scene but I’d be happy for that to go as well since it is just some fan service and Leia actually giving up on her son altogether without any attempt to ask Luke if it’s even remotely possible to try and save him before doing what is necessary.
redo a lot of the accompanying music to many scenes. Instead of naturally accompanying the story as it unfolds with the necessary themes and cresendos built in at the right places, it feels various theme snipets are simply inserted suddenly and loudly into scenes to make it obvious what the movie is try to point out and lead your hand to. I had issues initially with TFA due to how muted the soundtrack was but this is the first SW movie where I feel John Williams has let the movie down, or at least whoever edited his score into the movie.
replace some of the different wipes that feel forced rather than natural SW wipes.
That will do me for now but I’m not actually sure in the end whether this film can be saved by a fan edit. I feel an edit could drastically improve the film in many ways but many of the issues I have with it are ingrained to the story and I don’t think any amount of editing and rearranging will fix them. And that’s saying something as even the PT’s can become somewhat enjoyable with the right fan edit where I’m not sure if that is possible with TLJ.
.Val
Started reading this thread a few days ago but am struggling to catch up to the end of it so just putting in some initial comments.
I’m still actually processing what happens in this movie and how drastically different it is to TFA and the about face it does on everything setup in the previous film by JJ.
Having read a number of reviews on both sides of the fence, some analysis articles and some very informative and considered replies in this thread thus far (up to page 26) that helped me see another side on some of the matters and even appreciate them to a certain extent, I still find myself extremely conflicted on many aspects but I very much feel myself coming down on the side of disliking if not outright hating this film and everything it f**ks up in trying to bury the past and setup the franchise to continue on with its new cast of “Star Wars Heroes” with new rules that don’t mesh with the OT and are forgotten whenever it is convenient for poor and lazy writing.
Essentially I was extremely disappointed coming out of the cinema after going in fairly hopeful for at least a good SW movie if not a great one from what I’d seen in the trailers and had been setup by TFA. There were many elements I really liked but overall it left me feeling really deflated and it almost feels like a seperate entity to the rest of the saga.
TFA was not a great movie, it had its issues but it was still fun and I overall enjoyed it and most of all it helped reignite the spark of joy in watching non OT SW movies and the desire to see more of it, to eagerly anticipate where it was going to take me. RJ pretty much shot that feeling to pieces, set them on fire and stamped on the surviving ashes. At this stage I really have no desire to watch IX and am pretty much resigned to understanding that the OT will be the only trilogy I truly care about and can enjoy without any terms and conditions attached.
Anyway, I feel I want to discuss the matter in much greater detail but I’m not sure when I’ll have the time. So until then, I basically side with everything DrDre has said up till page 26 (where I’ve read to so far). His logic and thought process on all the matters he addresses is nearly a mirror for what I would say and I can’t agree more with what he states are the issues with this movie.
.Val
The DE gets a mention here:
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/14/16778224/disney-fox-deal-movies-tv-rights
About time! Actually SW, the Fox fanfare and the DEs get mentioned. Here’s the excerpts:
Comics fans have focused on the deal allowing Disney to bring a few leftover Marvel characters and Star Wars: Episode IV — A New Hope (including the 20th Century Fox fanfare) into the fold.
Shifting to a different universe of genre film, the deal would give Disney the one piece of the Star Wars puzzle that it didn’t acquire when it bought Lucasfilm. Fox’s original arrangement with George Lucas included the exclusive distribution rights to the first Star Wars film (which was later renamed Star Wars: Episode IV — A New Hope) in perpetuity.
With the rights secured, there’s a chance that Disney could put together a modern home video release of A New Hope — the original theatrical cut from 1977, not the special editions with Lucas’ much-maligned alterations, which is currently the only option. Purists can download the unofficial “Despecialized Edition” of the original Star Wars trilogy, but a fan edit, amazing as it might be, just isn’t the same as being able to walk into a store and buy a Blu-ray copy.
There’s also the matter of the 20th Century Fox fanfare, which accompanied the first six Star Wars films. The movies under Disney — 2015’s The Force Awakens, 2016’s Rogue One and The Last Jedi this week — open with a silent Lucasfilm logo. It remains to be seen whether Disney will bring back Fox’s iconic percussion-and-brass theme for future Star Wars films.
.Val
Wow, that album cover art is awesome Jason. There’s so many of them to if you look at the Imgur album, all so awesomely done even if I don’t know half of them. I recognise enough though and they’re so good 😄
.Val
Ok, even though those last few posts aren’t spoilers…I’m staying away from here until I’ve seen TLJ in a few days time 😉
.Val
Hey Ady,
Sorry to hear of your issues with Encore. Having a read of the below link sounds like the same or very similar issue which is attributed to a Microsoft Windows update of all things (actually they are quite often responsible for breaking many things with 3rd party software). Even if it’s not the same update affecting yours, do you think you could attribute when you started having the issue to when some updates were applied or the install date of any particular Windows update?
https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2292099
I take it you’re pretty clued into this type of stuff though so if this is all well treaded and old ground, just tell me to bugger off 😛
.Val
Paul said it isn’t happening tho
Flappin forget what Paul said! As someone else said, he’s essentially a nobody in the scheme of such decisions and has probably had his hand forced to sign an NDA so either way we’ll never know if it’s going to happen until it’s happened or we’ve all died of old age waiting for it to happen 😉
.Val
Rationalize it all you want, she’s still boring.
If you find her boring that’s fine. I don’t. That’s fine to.
Trying to say Jyn’s character is cold without reason, that there’s no reason to be sympathetic towards her circumstances and comparing the loss of her parents to Luke and Leia’s as some kind kind of justification to those arguments is just plain incorrect and wrong. It almost borders on falsification, saying that kind of thing makes me wonder if they’ve even seen R1? As it doesn’t remotely sound like the movie I watched…
.Val
Valheru_84 said:
I’m not saying that R1 has massive amounts of character depth and development but there is definitely plenty enough there for the type of movie it is and doesn’t line up at all with some people’s assertion that it’s not primarily character driven which for some reason means it’s a bad movie and that all the characters are 2d paper thin plot devices.I’m pretty sure nobody said that.
No, that’s pretty much what you allude to and what I understand is your disposition towards R1 from what you’ve said 😉
Edit: OK, so the below is what stick in my mind about your thoughts on R1 but on going back to it I read your other posts where you give the movie praise in other areas and are mostly just disappointed that it’s not more character driven:
I can credit ROTS for at least attempting to tell a character-driven story. I can’t say the same about R1.
That’s fine but I think your extremely simplified and rather incomparable comparison of the parent loss was pretty on the nose in terms of trying to back up your argument on Jyn’s character. You could say it “triggered” me somewhat and caused me to respond a bit harsher than I normally would to your next post 😉 (sorry about that).
.Val
I think she has very little personality other than that she’s mostly grim and down-to-business. Such an attitude doesn’t usually work without having a more sympathetic justification for that kind of coldness. Sure she lost her parents but so did Luke and Leia and they had some spirit.
Have you thought about the starkly different environments each grew up in? Luke and Leia both had stable and safe family environments and don’t even know what happened to their parents until they are adults. Jyn saw her mother get murdered by the Empire and her father abandon her. Instead she was raised by an extremist rebel who basically became her father figure and taught to become a cold and calculated rebel warrior like him. She grew up in guerrilla war conditions for years on end, likely on the run constantly to evade capture until it basically became the only real life she knew outside of her brief childhood of innocence.
Then he to abandoned her, just like her father did…at least from her certain point of view, until fortunately for the rebellion both he and her father later on had the chance to explain the truth of matters which changed every single aspect of how she had understood her life from when it first changed as a little girl.
So yeah, I’m pretty sympathetic to her situation and can understand her motives and choices at different times in her life as circumstances and her own knowledge of events changes.
.Val
Seeing that news about the Disney-Fox deal is supposed to be revealed today when TLJ also releases, I’m thinking (and fervently hoping) this bodes well for 4K OUT prospects. It’s to much of a coincidence for it to not mean something significant for SW.
.Val
Not according to Pablo Hidalgo on Twitter 😦.
He makes it seem like it really is George holding it back, which I never thought was the case. I wonder if it’s an actual legal stipulation or if it’s just LFL trying to honor his wishes.
You’d think after spending $60 billion, they really wouldn’t give a damn what Lucas thought.
That’s what I was hoping…
I don’t think you can totally discount the fact that Star Wars as of yet hasn’t had even an inkling of a mention in any articles about the deal despite being fairly big news that Disney now holds the rights to ALL SW movies, probably one of their biggest and more profitable franchises alongside the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And the fact that news on Mike Verta’s restoration has also gone completely cold at the same time.
If Disney really are trying to keep the whole thing quiet in lieu of an official release in the near future then I highly doubt you are going to hear anything but denials via official and even most unofficial channels. They’ll have that shit locked down water tight…
Maybe not in those words and in that fashion RRS-1980, but essentially that is what I found during my last (2nd to date) viewing of R1. I didn’t notice much of it on the first watch through at the cinemas but upon a rewatch at home I found there is quite a bit of depth to Jyn’s character if you go looking for it.
It’s not a movie that holds your hand in leading you to these thoughts, it instead gives you the base information and expects you to connect the dots yourself and recognise the significance for each character as to what is happening on screen.
I’m not saying that R1 has massive amounts of character depth and development but there is definitely plenty enough there for the type of movie it is and doesn’t line up at all with some people’s assertion that it’s not primarily character driven which for some reason means it’s a bad movie and that all the characters are 2d paper thin plot devices.
.Val
Scary but with exciting prospects at the same time 😉
Not a bad paycheque for Murdoch at $52bn, a bloke that started off by inheriting his dad’s newspaper business. Although it was reported the deal may have gone for $75bn, sounds like Disney did some hard bargaining 😛
.Val
Seeing that news about the Disney-Fox deal is supposed to be revealed today when TLJ also releases, I’m thinking (and fervently hoping) this bodes well for 4K OUT prospects. It’s to much of a coincidence for it to not mean something significant for SW.
.Val
So I understand today (Thursday) was to be the day the news about the deal was to be released. It also happens to be the day that TLJ opens in cinemas (at least it is here in Australia).
Coincidence much? Maybe it does point to some significance for the deal in regards to SW?
.Val
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered/id/48662 My personal go-to.
Seems like a pretty good edit if I were to choose one. Still not even certain on Ady’s at this stage though seeing it is going to be more of a fan edit than a fan fix like ANH:R and TESB:R were.
Sure ROTJ doesn’t measure up to the other two movies but I never really had any issues with it to the extent I’d rather watch a fan edit over the original theatrical.
.Val
Really highlights what the problem with SEs and prequels is, too. George really didn’t change at all. I think this also shows that he stubbornly felt he was right all along. See how the trade talk pops back up in TPM’s crawl. Honestly surprised he didn’t make further changes in the SEs to return the film to its original version.
Still makes me wonder if the prequels couldn’t be redeemed if given to actually talented editors.
NOTE: I’m not talking about a mere fan edit, but editors being supplied with all shot material and even a budget to complete or undo special effects. Obviously you’re not going to be able to fix bad performances and bad casting, but I could see them being restructured into something approaching a competent film.
Unfortunately I believe the main issue all fan editors and probably the editors at the time of production faced is in fact the source material you have to work with and the mentioned performance and casting issues.
If fan edits have proven anything with the PTs, is that no amount of rearranging and editing will ever properly fix something that is inherently shit to begin with.
I think Adywan had the potential to get close to making them good movies when he was still looking to edit them (not any longer) but I believe the only way to ever properly fix the PTs is to actually remake them, which isn’t out of the question knowing Hollywood. But then they’d probably want to remake the OT and ST as well, so all in all it’s probably just best to either forget the existence of the PT or enjoy them as you can with fan edits 😉
.Val
Handman said:
Things I noticed this go-around:
- The humour was not my style and took me out a lot.
- The title theme sounded more like a parody than the theme proper.
- Rey being able to pilot the Falcon better than Han, and the unexplained change in the treatment of droids was odd and a little annoying.
- The Rathtar scene is atrocious and serves little to no purpose.
Not all of it was bad. I noticed John Williams’ score a lot more, and was able to appreciate it more. Everything with Kylo Ren was great. I enjoyed everything else about the same.
I’d mostly agree on all those points though I’ll have to re-listen to the opening theme as I don’t think I felt that way. I did find as well though that upon initial viewing at the cinema, William’s score was quite muted and hard to hear a lot of the time compared to the other SW movies, PT included. It’s something that annoyed me and I actually commented on at the time upon leaving the cinema.
If R1 didn’t even attempt it, why blame it for not being character-driven? Or does every movie need to be character driven?
“At least The Phantom Menace tried to make a step-in-the-poop joke that isn’t completely tasteless, they horribly failed, but at least they tried. I can’t say the same of Citizen Kane.”
R1 barely attempted to have characters at all.
I kind of felt that way about Jyn and Cassian at first, but I have found them to be more interesting on subsequent viewings.
But most of the other characters are fantastic. Baze, Chirrut, K2SO, Krennic, Galen Erso…I enjoyed all of them right from the start.
These are my thoughts as well. On initial viewing there didn’t feel there was a lot there but on repeat viewings I’m getting more from Jyn and Cassian, to the extent that I feel like they do have a decent depth and detail to their characters but it just takes time to come out. Once you know the main story you do have more time to take in their lines and ponder their motives and pasts that are alluded to.
.Val
+1 vote to Jason for ‘best, most reasonable and level headed mod while still posting as a normal member’ of the year award 😛
Though I think that’s most of the mods here from what I’ve seen so far, but you’re killing it man! …or at least you are for your 3 month probationary period ha ha! XD
.Val
But he Force grabs the guard’s gun.
Does he? I’d forgotten that bit, though after just rewatching the scene on youtube it is very close already and could be mistaken for him simply grabbing it from the guards belt.
Anyway I do feel more like I’m making excuses now to support the point of view which is a bit of a stretch now for what is shown in the movie. It was something that sounded like it could be the case when reading about the scene in this thread but watching it again actually makes it not really a possibility.
Instead I think Luke is simply surprised and caught out when dropped into the pit which is what I always use to think anyway. It could be that it was meant as a bit of a message / lesson in being over confident in your control of a situation and your ability to handle whatever happens in it, a call back you might say to Han’s comment in ANH “Great kid. Don’t get cocky!”.
.Val