- Post
- #234974
- Topic
- Remember the mass advertising of TPM?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234974/action/topic#234974
- Time
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- 26-Apr-2012
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- Post
- #234794
- Topic
- Cardboard Leia
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234794/action/topic#234794
- Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I just wanted to say that, after eleven years of waiting, I finally got what I wanted: a life-size cardboard version of Leia in her slave outfit. My girlfriend ordered it for me as a surprise (and a new-apartment-warming gift). I'm happy! Anybody else have one of these?
I just wanted to say that, after eleven years of waiting, I finally got what I wanted: a life-size cardboard version of Leia in her slave outfit. My girlfriend ordered it for me as a surprise (and a new-apartment-warming gift). I'm happy! Anybody else have one of these?
Hah, I have a good friend who has that same cut out. They've used it to create many humorous situations. Strange how short Carrie Fisher is too.
I don't think his girlfriend much appreciated the exposed flesh though. They had Leia wearing seafood resturant bib the last I saw.
As for getting your girlfriend to wear a princess Leia costume that would be really hot, but I think I'd be a little too insecure to mix Star Wars with my love life that much. Do I really love her or do I love princess Leia?
Actually, on that note, I've never been that attracted to her looks at all. I've always thought she was very good looking but nowhere near my type.
- Post
- #234617
- Topic
- What did the Prequel Trilogy need?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234617/action/topic#234617
- Time
Originally posted by: CO
If you watch TPM, Jar Jar is not funny at all, and he practically ruins every scene, and what bothers me is he ruins what could have been three dramatic scenes.
If you watch TPM, Jar Jar is not funny at all, and he practically ruins every scene, and what bothers me is he ruins what could have been three dramatic scenes.
Yeah, he definitely ruins the drama and gets in the way a lot, and is perhaps the single greatest element in TPM that makes it lose its Star-Wars feel. But, I can still handle him as a character if I expect nothing from the film other than what it offers. Perhaps that's just me though.
- Post
- #234470
- Topic
- What did the Prequel Trilogy need?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234470/action/topic#234470
- Time
Originally posted by: lord3vil
Save for a few pieces of music, I also find John Williams score for the PT to be rather uninspiring. I don't think he is as creative today as he was in his earlier years, but what he was given to work with for these films didn't make things easier for him of course. The fantastic score of the OT is an integral part of the films that contributes immensly toward keeping the viewers emotionally attached and some of the pieces stand well even on its own, without the movie to support them. As far as sound effects go, the OT gave us the on/off, hum and clash of the lightsabers, the blazing lasers, the shrieking TIE-fighters, Vader's breathing and voice and the list goes on.
Save for a few pieces of music, I also find John Williams score for the PT to be rather uninspiring. I don't think he is as creative today as he was in his earlier years, but what he was given to work with for these films didn't make things easier for him of course. The fantastic score of the OT is an integral part of the films that contributes immensly toward keeping the viewers emotionally attached and some of the pieces stand well even on its own, without the movie to support them. As far as sound effects go, the OT gave us the on/off, hum and clash of the lightsabers, the blazing lasers, the shrieking TIE-fighters, Vader's breathing and voice and the list goes on.
That right there is why I like episode one the most I'm guessing. The music was far more gripping and moving, even if nothing on the screen deserved it. I think John Williams started figuring out that Star Wars had become a joke by episode two and stopped trying as hard.
Oh yeah, another reason I liked episode one was the larger nature of everything. You had small scale troops fighting alongside the jedi or flying to defend their planet. They were sort of put in as token elements, yet at least they were present. In the two later movies it was all about the main characters and if they could make enough meaningless clones to fight the aready mindless robots or not. Everything fet so small by comparison.
- Post
- #234385
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234385/action/topic#234385
- Time
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
As part of the saga, I've come to appreciate Empire a bit, but I find it totally unworkable as its own single film. It's episodic rather than linear, it's dark in tone and monochromatic visually, and it's self-referencial to its own story rather than universally referencial to classic myth and retro-moviedom. I highly doubt the style of The Empire Strikes Back would have struck nearly the universal chord of belovedness that greeted Star Wars had the stylistic order of the two films been reversed.
I agree again. It’s a film that heavily relies upon what came before. It assumed that the people who came to see the movie saw the first and decided to delve into new territory. It was more emotional. Again, all three tied together, they’re all great films to me, with Empire the most moving. Take them apart on the other hand and Star Wars stands in a league of its own.
I never thought of it that way. They sort of are a reverse image in terms of how the saga affected their quality.
Hmm, perhaps if each Star Wars film, regardless of overlapping characters or themes, had been created with the idea of being a standalone adventure, the series would have benefited greatly. Instead of being a big, illogically constructed saga, it would have been a series of individual tales in the same universe, along the lines of Frank Miller’s Sin City comic-novels (which are great). Though, I do like the rigid nature of a saga over individual stories since it means less quantity and more quality usually.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Plus, it's a plot point that seems to exist for no reason! There is such a huge setup for this, starting with the previous movie. "There is another." In the next movie, "There is another Skywalker." I mean, you would think that they were setting up for something big. A new quest for Luke. A savior to Luke. Something.
As part of the saga, I've come to appreciate Empire a bit, but I find it totally unworkable as its own single film. It's episodic rather than linear, it's dark in tone and monochromatic visually, and it's self-referencial to its own story rather than universally referencial to classic myth and retro-moviedom. I highly doubt the style of The Empire Strikes Back would have struck nearly the universal chord of belovedness that greeted Star Wars had the stylistic order of the two films been reversed.
I agree again. It’s a film that heavily relies upon what came before. It assumed that the people who came to see the movie saw the first and decided to delve into new territory. It was more emotional. Again, all three tied together, they’re all great films to me, with Empire the most moving. Take them apart on the other hand and Star Wars stands in a league of its own.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
And despite the obvious linguistic clue in the name Darth Vader, I never liked making sweet old Obi-Wan Kenobi out to be liar.
Yeah, I always figured there was something special about the way Obiwan stated the Darth Vader name there, but from the beginning I always had trouble believing they ever intended him to be Luke's father in the beginning. (I had memorized all the lines from the original movie by the time I saw Empire and could take it all in.) Now, years later, I'm sure the father relationship was invented on the spot for Empire. Still, all in all, I think the development was worth it in terms of continuing the Star Wars story beyond the first movie. And seriously, they didn’t have to make Ben so sneaky if they had done it right. Instead he likes twisting words to match his symbolism. Yet I suppose even that is better than what we have now with the PT, considering how Ben has become a psychotic liar.
Yeah, clearly Lucas does not take the series seriously anymore. You can kind of see that in Jedi as he began making the story shallower. I can kind of envision George, during the creation of Empire’s story thinking, “Yeah, it will be so cool to make this an epic saga with the earliest parts before the first film!” Then, 15 years later, I see him saying “Who’s idea was this saga thing anyway? I have no idea how to structure these dumb stories! Yet, all those crazy fans keep bugging me to make the earlier episodes. Oh well, at least I can make more money!”
Originally posted by: CO
The OT is great cause Lucas was making them on the fly, and he put everything into each movie to make them as great as possible. With the PT, he knew ROTS would be plot point heavy, so TPM & AOTC kinda leave you with that anticlimatic feeling before ROTS. In a sense, I think the only way to enjoy the PT is to watch all 3 movies in a row in one sitting. As for the OT, they are better individual films cause Lucas was not leaving anything out for the overall trilogy, and that is why ROTJ is the worst of the three, cause Lucas was out of ideas by that point.
If Lucas knew he would have been making a trilogy in 1977, he would have probably taken out the whole death star space battle and saved that for ROTJ, and the ending of SW would have just been rescuing the princess from the Death Star, and getting out alive.....to be continued..... To me, that would make The Original SW very anticlimatic, and it would probably fit better when watching the trilogy overall, it would take away from each individual movie.
And despite the obvious linguistic clue in the name Darth Vader, I never liked making sweet old Obi-Wan Kenobi out to be liar.
Yeah, I always figured there was something special about the way Obiwan stated the Darth Vader name there, but from the beginning I always had trouble believing they ever intended him to be Luke's father in the beginning. (I had memorized all the lines from the original movie by the time I saw Empire and could take it all in.) Now, years later, I'm sure the father relationship was invented on the spot for Empire. Still, all in all, I think the development was worth it in terms of continuing the Star Wars story beyond the first movie. And seriously, they didn’t have to make Ben so sneaky if they had done it right. Instead he likes twisting words to match his symbolism. Yet I suppose even that is better than what we have now with the PT, considering how Ben has become a psychotic liar.
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
I think at it's core one problem with the prequels was that we were given great epic, amazing trailers, completely misrepresenting the final film (except rots. by then we knew better.) God, just look at how beautifully done those were compared to the mediocre products that came after those trailers. If only the care put in to crafting those mini masterpieces was put into the editing and shaping the story in the films properly without a lot of unnecessary jarjar or whatever, i just know, they'd have been a decent set of films even if they weren't all perfect.
I know! The trailers were so magnificent! I have to admit that I was incredibly looking forward to RotS based on its promo. Same thing went for AotC and TPM. They were all a let down compared to the expectations.
Heh, this reminds me, RotS ruined one of the best lines in RotS (“You were chosen one!”) by putting it into the trailer where it seemed overly cheesy. In the film it was actually very moving and I got misty eyed, but so much of its impact was ruined by the trailer.
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Expecting too much... I was 12 when episode 1 came out. I hated jar jar, but gave the rest a free pass. "he was just rusty," I told myself. it's reasonable. He hadn't directed in a loooooong time. "the next would be much better." Compared to the crap of the first, it was, but that's not putting it on any high ground. here it became more clear to me as I got older that to lucas nothing in star wars was sacred. It was all a joke now.
I think at it's core one problem with the prequels was that we were given great epic, amazing trailers, completely misrepresenting the final film (except rots. by then we knew better.) God, just look at how beautifully done those were compared to the mediocre products that came after those trailers. If only the care put in to crafting those mini masterpieces was put into the editing and shaping the story in the films properly without a lot of unnecessary jarjar or whatever, i just know, they'd have been a decent set of films even if they weren't all perfect.
I know! The trailers were so magnificent! I have to admit that I was incredibly looking forward to RotS based on its promo. Same thing went for AotC and TPM. They were all a let down compared to the expectations.
Heh, this reminds me, RotS ruined one of the best lines in RotS (“You were chosen one!”) by putting it into the trailer where it seemed overly cheesy. In the film it was actually very moving and I got misty eyed, but so much of its impact was ruined by the trailer.
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Expecting too much... I was 12 when episode 1 came out. I hated jar jar, but gave the rest a free pass. "he was just rusty," I told myself. it's reasonable. He hadn't directed in a loooooong time. "the next would be much better." Compared to the crap of the first, it was, but that's not putting it on any high ground. here it became more clear to me as I got older that to lucas nothing in star wars was sacred. It was all a joke now.
Yeah, clearly Lucas does not take the series seriously anymore. You can kind of see that in Jedi as he began making the story shallower. I can kind of envision George, during the creation of Empire’s story thinking, “Yeah, it will be so cool to make this an epic saga with the earliest parts before the first film!” Then, 15 years later, I see him saying “Who’s idea was this saga thing anyway? I have no idea how to structure these dumb stories! Yet, all those crazy fans keep bugging me to make the earlier episodes. Oh well, at least I can make more money!”
Originally posted by: CO
The OT is great cause Lucas was making them on the fly, and he put everything into each movie to make them as great as possible. With the PT, he knew ROTS would be plot point heavy, so TPM & AOTC kinda leave you with that anticlimatic feeling before ROTS. In a sense, I think the only way to enjoy the PT is to watch all 3 movies in a row in one sitting. As for the OT, they are better individual films cause Lucas was not leaving anything out for the overall trilogy, and that is why ROTJ is the worst of the three, cause Lucas was out of ideas by that point.
If Lucas knew he would have been making a trilogy in 1977, he would have probably taken out the whole death star space battle and saved that for ROTJ, and the ending of SW would have just been rescuing the princess from the Death Star, and getting out alive.....to be continued..... To me, that would make The Original SW very anticlimatic, and it would probably fit better when watching the trilogy overall, it would take away from each individual movie.
I never thought of it that way. They sort of are a reverse image in terms of how the saga affected their quality.
Hmm, perhaps if each Star Wars film, regardless of overlapping characters or themes, had been created with the idea of being a standalone adventure, the series would have benefited greatly. Instead of being a big, illogically constructed saga, it would have been a series of individual tales in the same universe, along the lines of Frank Miller’s Sin City comic-novels (which are great). Though, I do like the rigid nature of a saga over individual stories since it means less quantity and more quality usually.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Plus, it's a plot point that seems to exist for no reason! There is such a huge setup for this, starting with the previous movie. "There is another." In the next movie, "There is another Skywalker." I mean, you would think that they were setting up for something big. A new quest for Luke. A savior to Luke. Something.
Yeah, they really seemed to imply that Leia was sensitive to the force in the middle movie and talked about another . . . but did they have to make her family? The story such a surreal turn there unless you believe the force fated them to be reunited, but no such explanation was provided in Jedi.
- Post
- #234382
- Topic
- What did the Prequel Trilogy need?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234382/action/topic#234382
- Time
Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
The Phantom Menace is my favourite prequel, but that's not saying much.
There must be more out there who agree with us! Hopefully they're not all under the age of ten!
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Honestly, I don't mind Anakin being a whiny lovesick teen in AOTC. When I first saw that movie, I was 16, and I was feeling pretty much the same way at the time.
The Phantom Menace is my favourite prequel, but that's not saying much.
There must be more out there who agree with us! Hopefully they're not all under the age of ten!
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Honestly, I don't mind Anakin being a whiny lovesick teen in AOTC. When I first saw that movie, I was 16, and I was feeling pretty much the same way at the time.
Strangely, I believe Hayden Christenson actually did a good job at his acting in AotC. I thought he pulled off the whiny thing pretty well, same with his desire for Padme. Unfortunately, the dialogue he was given was retchingly bad and his whiny nature in the story's plot was totally overdone. (Does George Lucas have any concept of subtlety?) I was also very disappointed by the pathetic simplicity of the love story between Anakin and Padme which was flat at best. I bet your magnification of a power struggle in the relationship between him and her would have been a good way to spice it up.
Once again, George Lucas' writing lethargy surfaces.
- Post
- #234275
- Topic
- What did the Prequel Trilogy need?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234275/action/topic#234275
- Time
Originally posted by: generalfrevious
I think Episode II was a little bit too modern, and Episode III was doomed before it premeired.
And no sane person likes the Phantom Menace
I think Episode II was a little bit too modern, and Episode III was doomed before it premeired.
And no sane person likes the Phantom Menace
Heh, how interesting. I keep hearing how terrible TPM was, and I'll even agree that when connected to the Star Wars saga that is was pretty bad. But, as a standalone film, The Phantom Menace is entertaining to a fair degree. Its nothing great mind you, but it's not that bad either. Episode II and III on the other hand are horrible. I can defend all of these points logically as well. I'm quite sane.
- Post
- #234271
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/234271/action/topic#234271
- Time
Originally posted by: CO
Hating Lucas for making an average PT, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for making an average ROTJ, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for putting out crap transfers for the O-OT, I will agree on that.
You made a lot of good points in your post, CO, and while we should never hate Lucas for making mistakes, I do want to clarify that Lucas didn’t merely give us an “average” prequel trilogy. It was bad enough to make any sane person cringe. To even make that fact worse, it was filled with contradictions and other concepts that turned the meaning of the original trilogy on its head. I now believe those problems were the mistakes of a messy mind, but very, very big mistakes.
In terms of the special editions I think George has some questions to answer, however. The 1997 special editions made the originals average (which was a travesty on its own), and the 2004 special editions went further and actually ruined the originals. While still not worthy of hatred, George should be heavily criticized as a person over these moves. Even worse is the way he prevents the original form of the movies from ever being seen and that’s an unforgivable course of action so long as he decides to stick to it.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Well, I for one, usually think of Luke and Han getting their medals, and that's my closure. I like SW'77 soooo much more than any of the others that I often consider it a standalone film. The fact that Lucas made up the main story of the saga (Vader being Luke's father) after the first film, and conflicting with dialogue (and thus the audience's truth) as presented in the first film, I have a pretty easy time thinking of the sequels as non-canon offshoots ... despite their pedigree.
I happen to think the emotional thrust of Star Wars is messed with if Princess Leia is Luke Skywalker's sister. She's not. Not in that film. And I like avenging his father as Luke's motivation for hating Darth Vader. That's the plot I fell in love with, as did millions around the world. In SW'77, Leia is the hero's legitimate love interest, and the hero's father was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader, a pupil of the hero's mentor.
Hating Lucas for making an average PT, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for making an average ROTJ, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for putting out crap transfers for the O-OT, I will agree on that.
You made a lot of good points in your post, CO, and while we should never hate Lucas for making mistakes, I do want to clarify that Lucas didn’t merely give us an “average” prequel trilogy. It was bad enough to make any sane person cringe. To even make that fact worse, it was filled with contradictions and other concepts that turned the meaning of the original trilogy on its head. I now believe those problems were the mistakes of a messy mind, but very, very big mistakes.
In terms of the special editions I think George has some questions to answer, however. The 1997 special editions made the originals average (which was a travesty on its own), and the 2004 special editions went further and actually ruined the originals. While still not worthy of hatred, George should be heavily criticized as a person over these moves. Even worse is the way he prevents the original form of the movies from ever being seen and that’s an unforgivable course of action so long as he decides to stick to it.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Well, I for one, usually think of Luke and Han getting their medals, and that's my closure. I like SW'77 soooo much more than any of the others that I often consider it a standalone film. The fact that Lucas made up the main story of the saga (Vader being Luke's father) after the first film, and conflicting with dialogue (and thus the audience's truth) as presented in the first film, I have a pretty easy time thinking of the sequels as non-canon offshoots ... despite their pedigree.
I happen to think the emotional thrust of Star Wars is messed with if Princess Leia is Luke Skywalker's sister. She's not. Not in that film. And I like avenging his father as Luke's motivation for hating Darth Vader. That's the plot I fell in love with, as did millions around the world. In SW'77, Leia is the hero's legitimate love interest, and the hero's father was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader, a pupil of the hero's mentor.
I totally understand your point of the contradicting dialogue between Empire and the first film. I never understood that as a child at all. Also, I totally agree that the original Star Wars is a better film (as a standalone accomplishment) and I can at least respect your opinion that making Vader into Luke’s father was a bad decision (though I do disagree).
The original Star Wars (which I often feel dirty calling “Episode 4” or “ANH”) is and always was my favorite movie of all time, but I do believe, as standalone films, that Empire managed to improve upon the Star Wars narrative to a notable degree. Despite not being as meaningful a film on it’s own as Star Wars was and continues to be, I believe that Empire is still a better film considering everything overall (the “saga” perspective).
In terms of the clear alterations to the story, every story changes at some point. A story’s nature changing between different installments isn’t a crime. The important part is to decide if we like what we see. We can judge the quality of a story at the time it changes and whether we still like it or not. In that sense, I believe the invention of Vader being Luke’s father in Empire was a brilliant decision and addition to the Star Wars story. Sure, it didn’t work with the previously delivered dialogue in the original film, but I always logically knew there could be many explanations for what Ben said that would keep his statements truthful. Unfortunately, Jedi let us down in regard to such an explanation.
Return of the Jedi added the idea that Leia had been Luke’s sister the whole time (which even as a kid made me think WTF?), but I could still take that concept and not let it ruin the story for me. Jedi wasn’t nearly as good as the two preceding films either, but it still had the great theme of self-sacrifice for our heroes and it displayed the great value of redemption which made the film great to me. When Luke turned himself in to face the Emperor and when the Rebels decided to stick around and possibly face certain doom I’m always on the edge of my seat. When Luke is tempted by the dark side in Jedi it also gives me goose bumps. Lastly, Luke reaching out to Vader by taking a stand is perhaps the best climax Star Wars could have had. So, with all of that in mind, I still consider Return of the Jedi to be a great film, just not on the same level as the two that came before.
Lastly, about Darth Vader, I highly dislike the idea of him being the central focus of the “saga.” It’s insulting to the very purpose of the original story of Star Wars. Even in Empire and Jedi, with his increased focus, he was never the main character and served more as a means to apply pressure to the heroes. That’s why I don’t believe the prequel trilogy should have focused much on Vader if at all. But I didn’t make those decision . . . a certain someone else did . . . .
- Post
- #233997
- Topic
- What did the Prequel Trilogy need?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233997/action/topic#233997
- Time
- Post
- #233994
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233994/action/topic#233994
- Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
And can you imagine their work on Star Wars without Lucas? Wow....McQuarrie's Darth Vader design.... Burt's Sound design...... ILM's SFX..... JW score..... the editing...
...
Oh wait. Without Luca$h, there wouldn't have been a movie.
And can you imagine their work on Star Wars without Lucas? Wow....McQuarrie's Darth Vader design.... Burt's Sound design...... ILM's SFX..... JW score..... the editing...
...
Oh wait. Without Luca$h, there wouldn't have been a movie.
So, are you then saying that George Lucas has the moral and ethical right to disregard the work that so many people accomplished for him? There's nothing wrong with him treating the theatrical releases as rough garbage?
Sure Lucas was the epicenter for the creation of Star Wars, but without him, those same great movies wouldn't have been crippled with disgustingly worthless changes. Even if you think the SEs are superior (which is totally nonsensical to me, but everyone has the right to hold an unfounded opinion), quality treatment for the original theatrical releases shoud still have some importance to you.
- Post
- #233773
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233773/action/topic#233773
- Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
If he didn’t “possess the mind” they why are people still talking about SW 30 years later? Was ANH a fluke? Did he get lucky?
Uhg, please don't take my thread off topic. The last few posts have been completely unrelated to the original discussion thanks to you.
I'm seriously exploring Lucas as an artist and why his most recent work objectively destroys the continuity and quality of his previous work. This isn't a thread for your random "opinions" or your subjective preferences.
If you had paid any attention to what Obi Jeewhyen and the rest of us were discussing, then you would know that we are not stating that ANH was merely some "fluke" on Lucas' part. Nor do we necessarily believe that his newest works had to be quite so bad. Some of us may believe these things, but that’s not the focus of the debate. The point of this thread is the messy nature with which George has assembled everything related to Star Wars over the years; that he took other potentially good ideas and ruined them by tacking them onto older ideas that were then also ruined as a result. If you want to debate that point, then you are welcome to join in.
In my opinion, Lucas accomplished so much with ANH precisely because it was a fresh effort on his part. He wasn't making anything complicated or altering anything that was well established and so there weren't many mistakes for him to even make. His artistic talent was able to shine. Plus, he had many collaborators on ANH who were able to give life to a lot of the cold and generic ideas he personally brought to Star Wars. Then, of course GL directed/edited the film well. I'm not going to detract from what he accomplished and organized well. It the mess he made later that is the problem.
Originally posted by: Blackjack
I don't think we've been hard on lucas at all. I've come to the conclusion that he hates us OOT fans, so it is O.K. to hate him right back.
otherwise he wouldn't treat the unaltered version like a disease to wipe out of existance. There is no other reason for his anamosity towards the OOt and its fans.
If he didn’t “possess the mind” they why are people still talking about SW 30 years later? Was ANH a fluke? Did he get lucky?
Uhg, please don't take my thread off topic. The last few posts have been completely unrelated to the original discussion thanks to you.
I'm seriously exploring Lucas as an artist and why his most recent work objectively destroys the continuity and quality of his previous work. This isn't a thread for your random "opinions" or your subjective preferences.
If you had paid any attention to what Obi Jeewhyen and the rest of us were discussing, then you would know that we are not stating that ANH was merely some "fluke" on Lucas' part. Nor do we necessarily believe that his newest works had to be quite so bad. Some of us may believe these things, but that’s not the focus of the debate. The point of this thread is the messy nature with which George has assembled everything related to Star Wars over the years; that he took other potentially good ideas and ruined them by tacking them onto older ideas that were then also ruined as a result. If you want to debate that point, then you are welcome to join in.
In my opinion, Lucas accomplished so much with ANH precisely because it was a fresh effort on his part. He wasn't making anything complicated or altering anything that was well established and so there weren't many mistakes for him to even make. His artistic talent was able to shine. Plus, he had many collaborators on ANH who were able to give life to a lot of the cold and generic ideas he personally brought to Star Wars. Then, of course GL directed/edited the film well. I'm not going to detract from what he accomplished and organized well. It the mess he made later that is the problem.
Originally posted by: Blackjack
I don't think we've been hard on lucas at all. I've come to the conclusion that he hates us OOT fans, so it is O.K. to hate him right back.
otherwise he wouldn't treat the unaltered version like a disease to wipe out of existance. There is no other reason for his anamosity towards the OOt and its fans.
But when will the hate stop?! At some point someone has to desire peace and love!
Personally, if George wants to hate me because I'm a fan of the original theatrical releases of Star Wars then that's his choice. It's not hurting me at all. I'd rather analyze how he hurts himself, hurts the people he worked with in the past, and hurts the classic films he helped create.
I was also thinking, because George has such a messy and unorganized mind, perhaps that's why there is such animosity between him and his fans. Fans (or fanatics) are, by definition, strongly attached to something. George on the other hand has no loyalty to the intended content he has control over. He'll contradict or change things that fans have become completely attached to and not give a care in the slightest. The biggest problem of course is when he removes something that was clearly and objectively great in terms of artistic achievement and then replaces it with something clearly inferior.
- Post
- #233579
- Topic
- Star Wars duels: lightsabers & the force!
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233579/action/topic#233579
- Time
I agree with anyone that says that ESB's duel was great. It definitely had the most feeling directly associated with saber-fighting in the entire series. Otherwise, I thought RotJ's lightsaber duel was a lot more intense and accented the other tensions in play and thus that's my favorite duel from the OT. Though, I also love Ben and Vader's duel in the original Star Wars.
TPM's duel of fates was the most intense saber-fight in the series for me and thus entertaining, mostly because Maul seemed so incrediby intimidating during that whole part. . . then he kind of died like a wimp (oh well). Sure, it wasn't as good compared to the OT duels for me, but still very cool I thought. The final battle between Obiwan and Anakin was also able to hold my attention at least. I believe the rest of the PT duels were pretty much crap however.
- Post
- #233574
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233574/action/topic#233574
- Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
It's not so much that he changes his mind. I mean, that happens in the creation of fiction all the time, and it's really quite interesting to see how a story can evolve away from what you originally intended it to be. But he either refuses to believe it ever changed or tries to convince us by changing his movies that it never changed. It was always meant to be this way, and anything that differs from that is just either the technology of the time or the crappy studio system that prevented him from doing it the way he wanted it.
It's not so much that he changes his mind. I mean, that happens in the creation of fiction all the time, and it's really quite interesting to see how a story can evolve away from what you originally intended it to be. But he either refuses to believe it ever changed or tries to convince us by changing his movies that it never changed. It was always meant to be this way, and anything that differs from that is just either the technology of the time or the crappy studio system that prevented him from doing it the way he wanted it.
I know. You'd think he'd admit the truth of everything and not act like some infallible god. He's sloppy-minded person however, and perhaps he can't actually see his own hypocrisy and lies with clarity. It's possible that he actually believes his own bullshit. Hmm, then again, some of his nonsense is way too extreme for that, and he'd have to actually be crazy if he was not a liar. I don't know.
- Post
- #233572
- Topic
- How the prequels should’ve played out:
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233572/action/topic#233572
- Time
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593074492/sr=8-2/qid=1155112117/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-7806735-3947342?ie=UTF8
- Post
- #233467
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233467/action/topic#233467
- Time
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
I simply can't agree with that. Oh, I have no problem laying off George as a person. But as an artist and a businessman, I continue to hold him in complete contempt. Not possessing the type of mind to adequately create the art that so much intense effort and money went into ... well, there's no excuse for that on an artistic or business level.
Yeah, I don't really mean to excuse that. He's a very arrogant person to weild his power the way that he does. I'll agree to criticize him on that level. But, that still doesn't mean that some of his artistic mistakes and problems are not honest on his part. He might actually think that what he is making is good. He certainly has enough idiots worshipping him, and with his arrogance in the way it isn't hard to imagine that he'd lose perspective.
Very good point. Again, I think that problem goes back to his greed. He purposely kept changing one franchise because he knew he could keep using its popularity for material gain. I'll criticize him there any day.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
It's really just the "now" attitude that he has. Whatever mindset of the week he has is what everything he's ever done has to be. Sometimes that manifests itself simply in the way he talks about things (i.e. I always meant this scene to be perceived this way...) even though it's obvious he's talking out of his ass. Sometimes it manifests itself in him actually going back to old material and changing it to fit his new viewpoint rather than accept that he's changed and deal with it.
I simply can't agree with that. Oh, I have no problem laying off George as a person. But as an artist and a businessman, I continue to hold him in complete contempt. Not possessing the type of mind to adequately create the art that so much intense effort and money went into ... well, there's no excuse for that on an artistic or business level.
Yeah, I don't really mean to excuse that. He's a very arrogant person to weild his power the way that he does. I'll agree to criticize him on that level. But, that still doesn't mean that some of his artistic mistakes and problems are not honest on his part. He might actually think that what he is making is good. He certainly has enough idiots worshipping him, and with his arrogance in the way it isn't hard to imagine that he'd lose perspective.
Originally posted by: zombie84
Had he made them each as their own self-contained series or film this problem wouldn't exist, but he tried this in 1987 with Willow and it failed--so rather than develop new material he allowed himself to experiment and indulge his various sensibilities by selling the material as "Star Wars."
Had he made them each as their own self-contained series or film this problem wouldn't exist, but he tried this in 1987 with Willow and it failed--so rather than develop new material he allowed himself to experiment and indulge his various sensibilities by selling the material as "Star Wars."
Very good point. Again, I think that problem goes back to his greed. He purposely kept changing one franchise because he knew he could keep using its popularity for material gain. I'll criticize him there any day.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
It's really just the "now" attitude that he has. Whatever mindset of the week he has is what everything he's ever done has to be. Sometimes that manifests itself simply in the way he talks about things (i.e. I always meant this scene to be perceived this way...) even though it's obvious he's talking out of his ass. Sometimes it manifests itself in him actually going back to old material and changing it to fit his new viewpoint rather than accept that he's changed and deal with it.
Good way to put it. He goes too far. But, I believe that's because his mind just isn't sufficiently rigid enough to remain faithful to certain concepts. He accepts and rejects ideas far too easily. What we have left is headache of chaotic elements.
(Perhaps that's why Gary Kurtz had a falling out with Lucas, when Lucas changed his mind too much from what had been previously agreed to.)
- Post
- #233459
- Topic
- How the prequels should’ve played out:
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233459/action/topic#233459
- Time
- Post
- #233426
- Topic
- Expecting too much of George Lucas?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233426/action/topic#233426
- Time
I was thinking this morning that maybe I have been too hard on Lucas. The more I analyze his personality traits, the more I think that perhaps he was simply in over his head in making the special editions and the prequel trilogy and still doesn’t realize it nor ever want to realize it. Maybe he truly just can’t see what he’s doing to the entertainment franchise he helped create. Maybe he actually doesn’t know better.
It seems like, in everything that Lucas has done with Star Wars, he has had a million different logical approaches that all seem to contradict each other. He wants it be a great dramatic epic and a corny adventure film at the same time. He wants it to be a comedic tale told from a droid duo’s point of view and a serious mythological tale touching upon ethics and spirituality at the same time. He can’t even keep his sensibilities straight when it comes to a given character’s motivations or history. This speaks to a mind that is very messy and unorganized.
It’s like, at every turn, he comes up with a new idea or a new approach and adds it into the mix because that appeals to his fancy at that given moment. He expresses no problems with the contradicting concepts and feelings or any of the hanging threads he creates. It’s as if he just doesn’t care about that sort of thing. Perhaps George just has personality traits that aren’t suited to creating an intricately massive piece of art, and if that’s the case, then who am I to level personal criticisms at a man for his honest mistakes? We all have deficiencies after all.
Now, I still believe that George Lucas is greedy, and values his money over his art, which is wrong, and I also believe he is callously self-centered and stubborn. But, beyond these traits, from now on I believe I’ll go easier on George as a person.
George Lucas definitely has artistic skills, but his open-ended mind is too chaotic and I suppose he just doesn’t know when to quit.
- Post
- #233407
- Topic
- How the prequels should’ve played out:
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233407/action/topic#233407
- Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Part of me agrees and part of me doesn't. Like I said, Serenity loses part of its charm by not being simple. Suddenly the characters are stage center in a "fight to save the universe" kind of plotline rather than getting a job and staying out of trouble, which were some of the dichtoms that Joss Whedon mentioned on Firefly bonus materials. Plus, the sci-fi elements were much stronger than in the show. We have ion clouds, love bots, the Maidenhead bar. But I think it works as a movie. And it works even better for fans of the show, which is for whom this movie was made. I mean, I know it made me excited and nervous for the crew to suddenly be involved in matters that were much more important than you ever would have wanted them to be involved with. And this is a show that got pummeled before it could tell its story, so I think the fans were very much interested in having things resolved and explained. Yes, it would have been better had they not had to deal with all of that stuff, but I feel that it had to be done to wrap things up. And if the idiots at Fox hadn't cancelled it, then the story could have taken its time like it needed to be done. But I think it's a worthy trade-off.
I'll easily agree that it was a worthy trade-off, but not one that I believe was needed. Not every sci-fi story needs to be a gigantic epic or psychogical/horror/survival thriller to be successful. I enjoyed the flashy special effects and the story elements that went into Serenity and I enjoyed seeing them played out in some way, but the presentation in Serenity felt more forced than it should have been. Like the characters were more doing what they were doing because some "agent" was hunting them and because they had no other choice. (What happened to the creepy agents with the blue gloves?!)
Serenity was a good film, and a worthy conclusion to many of Firefly's mysterious plot elements, but it was not as good as the show it sprang from and I believe it could have been better. Having a more down to earth plot in place of the conclusions and large scale plot elements would have been a worthier trade-off in my mind as a fan of the show and as a person who enjoys well-made entertainment.
Heheh, I think another perfect TV- to-movie translation was way-back-when with Star Trek: Wrath of Khan. The absolute essence of the TV show translated to the big screen, and never achieved again despite a slew of subsequent movies.
Part of me agrees and part of me doesn't. Like I said, Serenity loses part of its charm by not being simple. Suddenly the characters are stage center in a "fight to save the universe" kind of plotline rather than getting a job and staying out of trouble, which were some of the dichtoms that Joss Whedon mentioned on Firefly bonus materials. Plus, the sci-fi elements were much stronger than in the show. We have ion clouds, love bots, the Maidenhead bar. But I think it works as a movie. And it works even better for fans of the show, which is for whom this movie was made. I mean, I know it made me excited and nervous for the crew to suddenly be involved in matters that were much more important than you ever would have wanted them to be involved with. And this is a show that got pummeled before it could tell its story, so I think the fans were very much interested in having things resolved and explained. Yes, it would have been better had they not had to deal with all of that stuff, but I feel that it had to be done to wrap things up. And if the idiots at Fox hadn't cancelled it, then the story could have taken its time like it needed to be done. But I think it's a worthy trade-off.
I'll easily agree that it was a worthy trade-off, but not one that I believe was needed. Not every sci-fi story needs to be a gigantic epic or psychogical/horror/survival thriller to be successful. I enjoyed the flashy special effects and the story elements that went into Serenity and I enjoyed seeing them played out in some way, but the presentation in Serenity felt more forced than it should have been. Like the characters were more doing what they were doing because some "agent" was hunting them and because they had no other choice. (What happened to the creepy agents with the blue gloves?!)
Serenity was a good film, and a worthy conclusion to many of Firefly's mysterious plot elements, but it was not as good as the show it sprang from and I believe it could have been better. Having a more down to earth plot in place of the conclusions and large scale plot elements would have been a worthier trade-off in my mind as a fan of the show and as a person who enjoys well-made entertainment.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Originally posted by: TiptupHeh, the only tv-to-movie transition that has ever practiced my ideas (that I know of anyways) was Cowboy Bebop the movie. ... It was perfect way to translate the real feeling of the show.
Originally posted by: TiptupHeh, the only tv-to-movie transition that has ever practiced my ideas (that I know of anyways) was Cowboy Bebop the movie. ... It was perfect way to translate the real feeling of the show.
Heheh, I think another perfect TV- to-movie translation was way-back-when with Star Trek: Wrath of Khan. The absolute essence of the TV show translated to the big screen, and never achieved again despite a slew of subsequent movies.
You're right. Wrath of Khan was a pretty sweet transition, but it didn't have to carry as much baggage as a Serentiy did. Also, in terms of Star Trek movies, my second favorite (after Khan) is Star Trek: Insurrecton, which I believe also captured the feeling of the television show very well (though more TNG that OS).
- Post
- #233205
- Topic
- Vader Sessions
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233205/action/topic#233205
- Time
Also: http://lukevadernoooo.ytmnd.com/
- Post
- #233204
- Topic
- ROTS in the IMDb top 250!
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233204/action/topic#233204
- Time
Originally posted by: Mike O
TPM is obviosuly geared towards kids, ROTS is an attempt to get back in the good books of longtime fans, and AOTC is...well, I don't know.
TPM is obviosuly geared towards kids, ROTS is an attempt to get back in the good books of longtime fans, and AOTC is...well, I don't know.
I'll agree that Phantom Menace was film with many juvenile elements. It also took the series into strange territory (virgin birth, midiclorians, odd Jedi organization, etc.). Still it was fast and fun to watch to a degree. Plus, the idea of a virtuous, messiah-type figure eventually foresaking goodness and turning to the dark side was an interesting prospect for me to ponder (I was disappointed).
I should add that in terms of story, editing, and pacing, I believe AotC was better than RotS (which had no discernable story, and irregular pacing). However, the obnoxiously bad dialogue and wooden acting in AotC makes it worse of the PT to me. At least RotS had acting I could stomach (like TPM) and depicted a number of dramatic moments that were moving to a degree.
- Post
- #233201
- Topic
- Lucas saved face as director?
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233201/action/topic#233201
- Time
- Post
- #233200
- Topic
- How the prequels should’ve played out:
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233200/action/topic#233200
- Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I thought Serenity was pretty good. I mean, I don't think it's as good as Firefly, as it loses some of the charm and western feel, and Shepherd Book's role was painfully small, it's still a very exciting and enjoyable film. But Randy is right in that the narrative does fit the small screen better. It's just too hard to encapsulate such a large plot into a one-hour and fifty-nine minute movie.
EDIT: It definitely works ten times better if you're already familiar with the show.
I thought Serenity was pretty good. I mean, I don't think it's as good as Firefly, as it loses some of the charm and western feel, and Shepherd Book's role was painfully small, it's still a very exciting and enjoyable film. But Randy is right in that the narrative does fit the small screen better. It's just too hard to encapsulate such a large plot into a one-hour and fifty-nine minute movie.
EDIT: It definitely works ten times better if you're already familiar with the show.
I liked Serenity a lot. However, the actual tv show was many times better in most of the episodes. You had more of a feeling for the characters and the plots were down to earth and authentic in their values. I so wish the show's larger scale plot lines could have played out properly. The bastard at Fox who canceled the show should have given it a whole season's chance at the very least. I bet the finale would have hooked many people.
Otherwise, the main problem with the movie, if you ask me, is that it tried to do too much. It tried explaining crap that didn't need to be explained and tried to answer too many of the plot elements from the show. You can't do that and still have a good movie. There's very little cohesion.
I would have suggested to Whedon (who is a brilliant writer) that he forget about keeping things simple for newcomers and forget about the fans who wanted to see closure and just focus on making a great standalone story that exhibits the best of who the characters were and what they cared about. No stupid "agent" plotline or complicated stuff like that. He should have focused on the characters and how they lived their lives, just like in the show, and only throw in a few bones of the larger plotlines left hanging for the original fans at most. It would have been an anti-sci-fi sci-fi film, just like the show was anti-sci-fi sci-fi. It would have been sweet. Then, if the movie had been successful, the small bones of plot elements could have been expanded to provide closure in later films/shows. I don’t know.
Heh, the only tv-to-movie transition that has ever practiced my ideas (that I know of anyways) was Cowboy Bebop the movie. It was fantastic in every way. It didn't need to introduce any of the complicated back-story for the characters or large-scale plotlines. It was about its own, self-contained story. It was perfect way to translate the real feeling of the show.
- Post
- #233194
- Topic
- 5/25/77 A fan film idea...
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/233194/action/topic#233194
- Time
- Post
- #232964
- Topic
- computer games - voice acting
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/232964/action/topic#232964
- Time
I love C&C Generals too. It's a very fun-oriented game, though also on the unbalanced side like Red Alert.
- Post
- #232923
- Topic
- September Release BestBuy Canada Exclusive...
- Link
- https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/232923/action/topic#232923
- Time
I'd probably buy non-anamorphic DVDs of the original trilogy if they didn't force me to purchase the 2004 editions as well.