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The Bizzle

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Join date
21-Aug-2004
Last activity
14-Feb-2009
Posts
529

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Post
#69288
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/69288/action/topic#69288
Time
Quote
Bizzle's the one who originally brought up pointing out misspellings as a "valid" debate point.


Tighten up your panties, pops. I called you out on it because if you're going to strain yourself using 10 cent words to beat me about the head with, you need to SPELL THEM RIGHT, because it destroys the illusion you're trying to set up if you can't implement the terminology properly.

And you are quite possibly the most oversensitive fanboy on this board. Even when people AREN'T shitting on you, you act like they are. It's getting to the point where if people aren't very deliberately tossing your salad, you start to get miffed. Chill out. Stop taking everything so personally. I can understand the feeling, especially since you spent over a thousand bucks SPECIFICALLY to make Laserdisc captures that will end up only being JUST as good as a couple other people's already, and including features already available (original scroll, isolated score) on other captures. I could see where this would frustrate you--but jesus, man. Please stop taking every comment as if it's a dart aimed solely at your heart.

Or I'll feed you to the fucking cat.
Post
#69261
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/69261/action/topic#69261
Time
Thank you for the compliments.


...I see it utterly killed the thread, however.

Quote
it's like two guys arguing about who has the smallest dick.


I win. I pee on my balls, typically. I have to straddle the toilet/urinal and let the yellow goodnes cascade down the wrinkled folds of my sack to gently plink off of the pink urinal cakes.

oh, and I'm glad someone else noticed this Sam_Lu kid is possibly the most uncreative, uneducated (about the movies, that is) and one-note poster here. To tell the truth, I'm betting about 9/10th's of this boards horrible supernegative fanboy image comes from that kids constant unfunny ranting. Hell..he compared not getting the OT on DVD to SLAVERY.

SLAVERY.

"I can't get Star Wars on DVD the way I want it"
vs.
"Strip me, degrade me, take away my name, whip the shit out of me and make me work 18 hour days for nothing while you rape my wife and steal my children."

And he was SERIOUS.

This is a guy you want people cruising by to ASSOCIATE with www.originaltrilogy.com?
Post
#69260
Topic
STAR WARS DVD Producer Van Ling answers the tough questions!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/69260/action/topic#69260
Time
Quote
doesn't that make us all share/stakeholders?


Hell no it doesn't.

You didn't buy that toy going "Hey, this is a down payment for a future DVD release" you didn't buy that book saying "This is future insurance for when the movies are released later" you bought the book TO READ THE BOOK. You bought the toy to PLAY WITH THE TOY (or hang it up, mint in condition, on your wall to eventually sell for a profit on ebay, whatever)

Lucas didn't MAKE YOU buy the merchandising. You weren't fooled or anything. Maybe you FEEL fooled. Maybe you're looking at the walls of mint-in box carded toys, framed posters, resting your feet on the stacks of Expanded Universe novels, as you type your opinion into an internet messageboard makes you FEEL like you got taken. But that's all YOU. You buy a ticket, you watch a movie. You buy a DVD, you watch a movie. You buy a toy, you play with the toy. You buy some pillowcases, you rest your head on them. To then take those purchases and use them as some kind of leverage to assume CREATIVE OWNERSHIP of the property, to act as if you EMPLOYED the man responsible for it--that's just not thinking clearly. That's not understanding your role in the producer/consumer equasion.

You got what you paid for. Nowhere on the packaging of your mint in box Greedo figure does it say "(proceeds of this purchase entitle you to part ownership of Lucasfilm LTD" and neither do the inserts on the Soundtracks have your mail-in suggestion forms as to what creative decision Lucas should make next.

Now if you personally donated money to the man just out of the goodness of your heart, or lent him a couple thousand while he was down and out, maybe I could see your point. Then you WOULD be putting food on his plate. But you didn't. You've never even talked to the man. You've just bought his product. He never saw a dime of your money until he performed for you, until he did something. Try pulling that line on the checkout girl next time you're buying some Cornflakes, see how much gratification is returned.

It's just a whole hell of a lot easier to come clean and simply say "I just want these movies on DVD. Period." tacking all these lame justifications onto that does nothing but weaken the arguments and make us out to be spoiled brats.
Post
#68809
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68809/action/topic#68809
Time
I'd simply like to clarify:

Fanboy isn't a derogatory. I don't know when it BECAME a derogatory to Star Wars fans, it wasn't before, but once again, I think people are just kinda running with half-truths they saw on some other messageboard and using it like they really know what they're talking about.

Anyone who takes the time to register online, to post opinions about a movie with giant talking slugs, frog/kangaroo hybrids, little green men with hairy ears and bearded heroes who wear terrycloth and have laserswords--is a fanboy. There's no negative or positive in it. The word comes from the comics world, where it's pretty easy to see that "Fanboy" was just a cutesy comics-style nickname for a a comics fan. Someone who's a little more deep into that fantasy world than the average joe.

when I use fanboy--I'm not using it as an exclusionary. I'm simply using it to define the kind of people who would go online and spend about 5000 words talking about Star Wars and not even question whether they're wasting their time or not.

Everyone here is a fanboy.

whether you're a cool fanboy or a dickhead fanboy is completely up to you.
Post
#68435
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68435/action/topic#68435
Time
Great. More contrived facts.


At least you recognize them as facts, finally

Okay, firstly, please stop line-by-line quoting. once or twice is fine. But it's not like I can't just scroll up and re-read what I wrote if one of your responses loses me. It's not that hard. It makes arguing with you over something so ridiculously silly even more tiring.

and as far as your excuses for fucking your transfers up constantly goes, maybe if you spent less time measuring your dick all day with your constant fishing for ego hits via screencap showoffs, and more time studying up and working on the set itself, you'd have the set correctly done by now. Yunno, kinda like how Zion is already farther along with a better quality capture.

Anyway, once again, you keep trying to pull this "You don't think Lucas could EVER make a mistake" crap on me, and I've already said that's bullshit. Stop trying to use it. The whole point of my original posts was to say the color on these DVD's is fucking phenomenal. We're debating the color on these DVD's...which is why you bringing up the goddamn SOUNDTRACK makes no sense. You ignore the excerpt from the TEXTbook, you write off the comments by the premier name in film restoration--you can't even figure out how to encode a capture properly, but YOU know how these movies should look better than Robert Harris and George Lucas? You think that if Harris had noticed a "Blue Push" and had an issue with oversaturation, he WOULDN'T have mentioned it? those are significant flaws in a transfer. Someone who's career is dedicated to restoring film would NOTICE those flaws. the fact he didn't mention them should say something to you. the fact that there is documented AND anecdotal proof that pre-dvd transfers were routinely overbright as a standard practice should make you stop and think.

But instead, you're busy trying to place yourself on some sort of pedestal because you're sticking it to Lucas, and playing know-it-all about the color scheme of a set of movies you probably don't even really remember seeing theatrically. Meaning your point of reference were a series of overbright laserdisc transfers on TV sets you didn't even think to calibrate correctly until just recently. And you're trying to tell the rest of the people on this site that YOUR opinion on what the colors are supposed to look like is to be trusted? YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HALF THE TIME, man. You have a working ignorance of how DVD's are made, and you can't even correctly figure out how to make your own.

Get back to work.
Post
#68388
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68388/action/topic#68388
Time
MeBe--I like your efforts in capturing your LD's, but yunno what? You don't know 2/3rds of what you're talking about over half the time. You really don't. Which is fine, because you're learning as you go, and that's typically the best way to learn--but most of your "rebuttal points" are best guesses and at worst rationalizations for your faulty memories. It's hard to hear you speak authoritatively on any subject about image quality when you can't even capture and burn your DVD correctly the first four times you try. FOR INSTANCE:

PAL vs NTSC isn't going to introduce the kind of color differences you're arguing about if the discs are being played on the proper monitors.

the SOUND SWAP on the dvd's has nothing to do with the color differences you think you're seeing.

You're trying to bring up everything BUT the fact that comparing a restored, remastered, retransferred DVD to an old, out of date, washed out Laserdisc transfer--and then saying the LASERDISC is closer to true is pretty ridiculous. I mean--there's a whole lot of your post dedicated to taking some kind of moral superiority stance to Lucasfilm. Trying to use "Definitive Collection" as some kind of condemnation of Lucasfilm's quality control, while missing the obvious fact that the title of the DVD IS A MARKETING TERM like Ultimate Edition or Special Edition. Plus then you flip flop on THAT by saying this obviously sub-par "Definitive Collection" That Lucas horribly fucked up with and screwed up IS, in fact, the way the movies REALLY should look.

Here--here's a bunch of comparisons.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/willow/SW_Changes/SW_Changes.htm
http://perso.club-internet.fr/willow/SW_Changes/ESB_Changes.htm
http://perso.club-internet.fr/willow/SW_Changes/ROTJ_Changes.htm

Weird. Blue push in the DVD's? I dunno about you, but I think the blue push is occurring behind your head somewhere, especially compared to the SE's directly above it, and the Originals above THAT. You are, as a matter of fact, the FIRST person online I've read anywhere to try and say the DVD's are leaning towards the blue end of the spectrum. It's making me wonder if you're just kind of randomly using tech-geek terminology without really understanding how to apply it. Of course, from reading your posts here, it's probably not enough that I just tell you to look at the screencaps, because then I'd have to trust you to KNOW what you're looking for, and I'm not sold that you KNOW what you're talking about. The fact you still use bullshit like "PPOR" helps me to continue thinking that.

Heaven forbid the LDs ultimately have a more faithful color rendition than the DVDs.

Apparently so. Considering you so easily throw away the idea that previous transfers WERE overbright and soft and washed out. This is fact, man. You've got Rattlesnake backing me up as well up above. I guess WE'RE both insane? I dunno..let's check with David Cronenberg...

excerpted from Film Art: An Introduction by David Bordwell and Kristin Thompson

"Another disparity between film and video involves contrast ratio. While the video camera can reproduce a maximum contrast ratio of 20:1, 35mm color film can reproduce a contrast ratio of 100:1. As a result of these factors, the 35mm film image can display a much greater range of tonalities. When a film is transferred to video, engineers typically handle the narrower contrast ratio by lightening the image, thereby losing the richness of shadow areas. "The versions of The Dead Zone and The Fly that you find on video carry my name," observes director David Cronenberg, "and they are the films that I made, but I hate the way they look on tape. Too bright."

Keep in mind this was long before DVD was thought of. The above happened with EVERY MOVIE. they overcranked the brightness and contrast. It's just a matter of fact that earlier transfers for the VHS and LD era WERE OVERBRIGHT.

And then lets check with Robert Harris, the man responsible for the restoration of Vertigo and Lawrence of Arabia:

When I finally made it back to the office and dropped the DVD of Star Wars into my player and viewed the image on my monitor I was pleased.

Later in the evening I sampled a number of different scenes from different discs on a larger system, and also was pleased.

The films are pretty.

They are clean.

this is a superb product.


Gee. You'd think if the guy responsible for film restoration of some DEFINITE CLASSICS had noticed a blue push, had thought the picture was oversaturated--he'd have mentioned it, right?

But that's not really the point of your argument, is it. It's boils down to this sentence.

Saying we can't be right because Lucas could never get it wrong is flat-out ridiculous.


See--I never SAID LUCAS COULD NEVER GET IT WRONG. You're seeing what you want to see and then trying to beat me over the head with it. What I said was that the SAME transfer got pressed to the SAME discs in the same plants as EVERY OTHER REGION got pressed at. PAL regions got that IDENTICAL transfer encoded in PAL. It's the SAME TRANSFER. You're not going to notice a color difference between R1 and R4, because it's the EXACT SAME NTSC transfer, simply with different region coding.

I've never said Lucas Could Never Get It Wrong, because I'm not the kind of fawning, sycophantic fanboy you want to paint me as. It's easier to wipe away my complaints that way, I know that, but that doesn't actually apply here. What I SAID was that the complaints here are ridiculous, and these transfers are all identical. Funny that Rattlesnake could recognize that pretty easy but instead you got all threatened and started bringing up stuff like the frigging AUDIO tracks when we're talking about PICTURE DISCREPANCIES. Hell, you can't even spell non-sequitur right.

Jesus Christ...


Post
#68450
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68450/action/topic#68450
Time
hey, that was a pretty good post too, R2.

Seriously though, most of the problem comes just from visiting super-huge fanboy sites in the first place. You're not ever going to find really good discussion at places like the StarWars.com boards, or TheForce.Net's boards. It's a magnet for people who just feel like screaming into the void. Or, on the other side of the spectrum it's a place for people who think that because there's such a huge memberbase, they can piggyback onto the Star Wars name and funnel all THEIR mediocre creative talents into messageboard posts instead of trying to cultivate them on their own.

All reading that stuff is going to do is either a) depress you b) frustrate you c) anger you.

but yeah, R2, you're right, a lot of these weird theories come from people reading EU and not even stopping to consider that the EU is basically marketing, and has jack to do with the movies outside of keeping the brand on shelves. Not to say the content isn't good sometimes. But they forget that George Lucas doesn't write the books, and they assume that if he let them get published, then he must have either read them, or helped write them. Which is very erroneous, but once again--most fanboys don't really WANT to know what they're talking about. They have more fun trading ignorant statements
Post
#68446
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68446/action/topic#68446
Time
Quote
but heavy-handed ownership control and manipulation of someone else's creation.


That belies an overall ignorance of how the movies were made, which goes back to my point that most fanboys don't really WANT to know what they're talking about because that'll knock holes in a lot of their righteous indignation.

He created the entire universe, and every character in it. Those are his. He wrote the story for every movie, and co-wrote the screenplay to Empire Strikes Back. Kasdan holds sole credit, but Lucas wrote 2 drafts before Kasdan came on, and Kasdan didn't change anything plotwise. He fixed the dialog (Thank God) and tightened up the pacing, but the story and events are just as Lucas originally wrote them before Kasdan got the draft to rework. Further story meetings all included Lucas, Kasdan and Kurtz, with Lucas and Kasdan hammering out points of contention. To say that's not his creation is ludicrous.

The same thing happened with Return of the Jedi, which was changed even less. The man directed 75% of Return of the Jedi by admission of anyone who ventured near the set during filming. Kershner put his stamp on the visual and character interaction in Empire Strikes Back, but the story, the plot, the characters, and the arc--that was Lucas. He sank the money into it, he wrote, he directed, he produced, he edited--save for the music, there isn't really a single aspect of any of these three films that Lucas didn't have creative control over.

These movies ARE his creations. He had other people help in the execution, and in that execution some new ideas were implemented, of course, but to say he's screwing up other people's creations is shortsighted and unfair, if not outright ignorant of how the movies were really made. It gives too much importance to Kasdan, Kershner, Kurtz, Kazanjian (what's with all the K's, jesus) Williams, Burtt, etc...that's not to take away from what they did at all, but it's just as unfair to give them more credit than they deserve as it is to say EVERYTHING was Lucas, down to correcting the angle on a popsicle stick poking out of the Death Star models.

Once again, I'm not saying the choices he's made since 1983 have been all showstoppers, but that doesn't mean these films, their subject matter, their stories, the universe they inhabit and the characters in that universe are not all creations of George Lucas, because they are. That's just how it is. It's pretty easy to step back and see that. It gets harder when you hang onto this weird, misguided sense of entitlement and pride that fanboys use to keep themselves overdramatically angry and indignant. When you don't purposefully drag in this sense of being personally assaulted into it, being able to look at it with a balanced eye gets a WHOLE lot easier. It doesn't become an exercise in seeing how many overused stale insults you can cram into a sentence.

Quote
I really have no idea what these Lucas Loving Fanboys have against releasing the Original Trilogy Theatrical Version


And that's just another example of you being willfully ignorant of what's actually being said. There isn't a single sentence in any of my posts here that even HINT at me being AGAINST the release of the Original versions on DVD. As a matter of fact, there's very blatant statments to the OPPOSITE of that effect. And the above is one of the biggest straw man arguments ever deployed in this argument. The majority of fans I've talked to across the world wide web, who actually DON'T MIND the Special Editions, would LOVE to have the original versions released. They're certainly not for SUPPRESSING them. They want to take the trip down nostalgia lane as well. They're just not as personally insulted and overdramatically raging at the fact they can't do that with an official release yet. That doesn't equal them wanting to SUPPRESS the originals at all.
Post
#68432
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68432/action/topic#68432
Time
Quote
I have to go with Regicidal on this - its not rational to want to be respected when you are not first willing to respect.


Hey, that makes perfect sense. But I dont' think I'm saying anywhere in there that you should move onto the SE's at all. I don't see where you're reading into that. I mean, maybe you're so used to people arguing that point in more typical internet debates (I know I've seen it more often than not--I think it's just as bad when people trot out that "Lucas could CG the whole thing and set the negatives on fire and I'd be fine, they're HIS MOVIES NOT YOURS" chestnut. That's just as bad as "Lucas raped my childhood.") But that's not really what I'm saying at all. I mean--I signed the petition, and I have two different OT bootlegs. If someone doesn't feel like moving onto the SE's, they don't have to, not at all. And I don't want them to do that against their will.

BUT: The respect issue still smacks of irrational reaction. For one..I don't really see how respect figures into it. Respect is something that comes from an actual relationship. I don't know if you can talk about Lucas disrespecting you if you've never met him. I don't think Lucas' refusal to release the originals has anything to do with a disrespect to his fans. I don't think that even enters into it at all. Because that hints at Lucas being spiteful, and I don't see that being realistic. That seems to be more coming from an inflated sense of importance in the whole deal, a misguided sense of the fans place in creative, artistic decision. It starts pointing back towards that feeling of entitlement. I've found there's entirely more evidence pointing towards a healthy respect for the audience coming from Lucasfilm, but not to the point where he's willing to cede any creative control to them. This is a man who is VERY hung up on creative control, and always has been. BUT--I'm not convinced his passion for creative control is equal to disrespecting his audience. I don't really see that. Now, if, in ANY of his interviews regarding this subject, he let ANYTHING out that somewhat hinted at him doing this with a modicum of spite or disrespect, I could maybe see it. But it seems to me that, just as when he was writing and producing the original trilogy from 74-82, he's not even looking at that aspect of it when he's thinking of the movies. I don't think that's disrespect, it's just simply not a factor.

I think the majority of the disrespect is flowing FROM the fans TOWARDS Lucas. I can understand being disappointed at not getting the originals, because I'm disappointed as well. But I think the difference is that I didn't take it as personally as other people have, I haven't elevated that disappointment into vendetta because I don't have an official DVD version. I understood that my role is consumerist at best. That's it. I consume, or I don't. And if they don't want to provide the product I'm wanting...I'll check other avenues. But I never took it as a personal affront that I didn't get that choice, because that just seems really immature and irrational. It's not a respect thing. it's a creative control thing. That's so far outside my role in this thing that it's not even a question. I respect that I'm at least getting 90% of the originals, and I'm disappointed that I'm not ALSO getting the originals, but the idea of being personally insulted by the actions of a man I've never met, talked to, or done anything but read about, doing nothing but merely exercising his creative control, regardless of whether I agree with those decisions or not.

And by the way, I don't agree with all those decisions. But I'm also a weird fan in that I don't think these movies are flawless examples of motion picture greatness. I love em--but they're not as great as they've been overzealously built up to be.
Post
#68400
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68400/action/topic#68400
Time
Quote
Maybe, However the above fanboy ignores the url address of this website forum in his rush to defend Lucas' latest batch of poor and unnecessary changes.


What defense? You see defense--but where am I defending anything. I know I'm explaining a bunch of shit, but nowhere in there do I state which version I prefer and which I don't. See, I can analyze and understand things without having to come down with some sort of instant value judgment on it. I can dislike something and still explain why it works. Funny that for all the derisive laughing and pointing, a fanboy comes in and explains it very clearly--and there's no debate and you have to severely twist the entire post to "You don't like the point of this site" which is not at all the case, nor was it the point of the post.

I don't miss the point of the site, but then again, it seems most people on the site DO seem to miss the point, especially when the largest point of discussion on the messageboards is dedicated NOT to getting originals on DVD, but to applying THEIR OWN changes to the movies. The majority of people here don't REALLY want the originals, they want THEIR version of the Special Editions. They want the control of the franchised returned to them--without ever realizing they never had control of the franchise in the first place.

It seems most people on this site are more prone to overblown hyperbole and straw man arguments in order to put them and their wishes on some sort of moral pedestal when every single one of those complaints can easily be totally undercut. These superficial concerns are a facade for the REAL reason, which is "I just want the movies I grew up with." Which, by the way, SHOULD be enough. There's nothing to argue against, there, is there. No one can tell you that you SHOULDN'T have those, right? So why isn't the purest, most boiled down version of the argument enough?

But the problem is that most people on this site start bringing up crap like "horrified by revisions that cancel out the work of creative artisans and actors," crap that fully ignores the majority of that work by these creative artisans and actors are STILL in the movies, by a margin of roughly 80-20 percent, and the credits that roll at the end of the movie STILL give these people their recognition. I wonder how many of the people on this site, who are so concerned about these artisans and actors, even KNOW THEIR NAMES or know which artisan did what and where in the movies? Or how many people here even CARE about such things beyond the value it can give them in adding another plank to their soapbox they get to spew from? "we want to preserve film history." is a fine argument, if you ignore that the films ARE preserved, and have been preserved. Library of Congress. Smithsonian. Not to mention the tens of millions of copies on VHS and Laserdisc. The preservation argument has been handled pretty easily.

But once again, this is just a superficial issue constantly brought out to trump up the moral standing of a petulant child who is trying to add gravity and weight to what is essentially a full-blown temper tantrum. You don't want preservation, because you've already got that. You don't want the effects artists to be respected, because you can't even NAME these people.

Hell, you can't even RECOGNIZE that my above post wasn't a defense of Lucas, but an attack on fanboys who do more to harm their cause than to actually help it, who don't recognize the bullshit falling out of their head when they smell it. The point of the site makes perfect sense. My signature is ON this petition. The site's cause doesn't upset me. The people carrying the flag is what bothers me. Their illogical, irrational and hyperbolic dittohead ranting is what bothers me. The inability or unwillingness to attempt to critically think about anything beyond "I WANT WHAT I WANT AND I WANT IT NOW FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU" is what bothers me.

You got slapped in the face with a pretty point blank observation of the worst of the people carrying the originaltrilogy.com flag and didn't have anything to come back with but a stereotype and a rationalization that has nothing to do with what I posted. That's what bothers me.

What bothers me, at the core, is the issue of control. The fans who constantly assume they have rightful ownership of these movies because they bought tickets and cassettes and toys and blankets. The false sense of entitlement that turns even the most intelligent and well thought out arguments into the bleating of a spoiled brat's temper tantrum. The irrational personal hatred towards someone they've never met, and the blatant truth that people dont' have problems with changing the originals, they have problems with LUCAS changing the originals. They're perfectly fine with MagnoliaFan changing them, and they're perfectly fine with REPLACING theatrical versions with MagnoliaFan's (on a site called originaltrilogy.com) but they can't stand when Lucas himself does it. That's really hypocritical and borderline mind-boggling. Only Star Wars fans have gone so far over the deep end that they consider CONSUMING PRODUCT an act worthy of OWNERSHIP. As if choosing to spend money on something puts the creator in some kind of DEBT to us. That notion is just silly as hell. People have fixated too long on these movies and have poured what meager creative energies they have into someone else's creation and they resent that the creator actually has repossessed his own creation to "fix" as he sees fit, and they can't stand that. And it's THAT undertone that taints the best posts here. And what people here dont' recognize is it's that undertone that probably is hindering your efforts more than anything.

And yet, I can say all these things and please note there is not a SINGLE DEFENSE OF A SINGLE CHANGE in there. Amazing how that works.
Post
#68294
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68294/action/topic#68294
Time
Although it is not unheard of that different regions have received different copies of the same master title from other regions due to some stupid marketting idea, I believe in this case it is more than likely the same


You are right, there are instances where different regions get different masters to press off of (DVDbeaver is a great site for showing this off) but in this case, all the discs WERE pressed up off of the exact same masters. Only the region coding and the menus changed.

And I also don't get the lack of love the Dr Gonzo set gets here. Keep in mind, this set is over THREE years old. And the color fidelity is STILL better than the TR47 set and the other captures often mentioned in here, save for the Zion and Jedi captures, done with VERY big leaps in technology between now and then. It's weird that no one's recognizing this.
Post
#68284
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68284/action/topic#68284
Time
Lowry still did some color tweaking on their own, as John himself discussed at the press event in July, specifically when dealing with cleaning up old optical effects shots. But I do thank you for the correction. I thought the majority of the color correction was handled by Lowry, turns out a smaller portion of it was.

BUT:

Either way, the point I made still stands--trying to judge a DVD image by laserdisc standards is pretty ridiculous. No one stands around looking at Indy Jones and going "There's no way this movie looks like that. Look how COLORFUL it is. Look how GREEN those trees are. Why isn't everything more pale and washed out like my laserdiscs are?"

You've got people in here pissing all over a phenomenal restoration because it doesn't look like a early 90's laserdisc transfer, and that's silly as hell. You've got people trying to convince others that a washed out, desaturated image of Chewie looking more GRAY than anything is closer to correct because "There's no way that shade of brown exists on earth.." Which is in and of itself a ludicrous statement.

Post
#68281
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68281/action/topic#68281
Time
There's no difference in transfer between r1 and r4, because all the transfers on all the regions are coming from the same masters, pressed up at the same plants as the other regions. Since they're all coming from the same transfer, there is absolutely zero reason for there to be color discrepancies from one disc to another, and any percieved color discrepancies are artifacts of the monitor or TV or projector being used for playback on the consumer end. Period.

Also, this color stuff? C'mon now. Every laserdisc capture, save for Zion's, Gonzo's and apparently Jedi's, from what I can see of his screencaps, has been washed out and desaturated. Chewie's too BROWN on the new DVD's? You're kidding me, right? I've seen the Chewie suit (in museum lighting with dark surroundings and spot lights), so does that make me an expert on color too? I dunno, but I'm pretty sure if I look at that comparison pic again, it's probably pretty certain that Chewie isn't SUPPOSED to look like a color-drained graymeat cancer patient in that shot. If I have to choose between "HE can't possibly be that brown" and "Leia's face has red on it" or a LOWRY restoration? I think I'm taking Lowry. Not like they're trusted by some of the most visual minds in Hollywood or anything.

I mean, we can rant and rave about Lowry oversaturating the color, but you gotta remember, the point of reference you seem to be using are old, out of date, washed out, overbright home video transfers. I mean, this is an industry that thought widescreen transfers were completely nutty up until the late 80's. If they were perfectly fine with cutting anywhere from 15-40 percent of the picture off, why would you think they were completely faithful to the contrast and brightness levels? They were chopping the sides off these films to fit the TV's, and they were artificially brightening them so that your typical consumer could safely enjoy watching the flick in their light-flooded living room on their TV, complete with picture settings factory-set on Torch Mode.

And you're saying that's how Star Wars is SUPPOSED to look? It's supposed to look desaturated and washed out? You're telling me "colors that couldn't exist in the real world" is a BAD thing in a movie consisting of EXPLOSIONS IN SPACE, LASER SWORDS and walking, talking ROBOTS?

Maybe the color isn't oversaturated..maybe you're simply too used to a washed out, desaturated picture to recognize brilliant color fidelity when you see it?

That seems a lot more plausible.

Post
#68295
Topic
Experiment
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68295/action/topic#68295
Time
Quote
since I know she won't like the movies


If you know she won't like the movies then why are you wasting her time with this shit? Don't TORTURE the girl, make her HAPPY. Forcing her to sit through 6 movies TWICE including 2 different versions of two trilogies isn't going to enlighten her, it's going to make her HATE YOU. You're not going to learn anything you don't already know--which is that she doesn't like Star Wars, regardless of whether some anonymous fanboy or some no-necked gazillionaire has his fingerprints all over it.

and spelling Lucas with a dollar sign is about as old as Jar Jar jokes, dirt, and Barbara Bush's pussy. i.e. terribly unwitty.
Post
#68289
Topic
The intelligence of SW Fan boys....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68289/action/topic#68289
Time
Lemme tell you about the intelligence of fanboys:

Most fanboys don't recognize that the new Emperor scene actually CHANGES NOTHING. The worst accusation you can level at it is now redundancy. It certainly doesn't make any less sense than it's predecessor. Don't forget--the original dialog ALSO mentioned "Luke Skywalker" and "The Son of Skywalker." Adding "The rebel who destroyed the death star." doesn't change anything, and adding "How is that possible" doesn't change Vader playing dumb--remember, HE says "Skywalker is with them" in the very beginning. He knows who he's looking after he, he knows EXACTLY who he is in BOTH versions of the movie. There's no reason to explain anything because there's nothing to explain--the situation in BOTH versions is EXACTLY the same.

Most fanboys don't stop to think that if Anakin WAS CREATED BY THE FORCE, what's to stop him from choosing whatever little image he wants to choose? he's a GHOST. He's the frigging FULFILLMENT of an ages own prophecy. Maybe Ben and Yoda don't mind showing up as they were when they died. But then again, they also didn't have about 30 straight years of being Satan In An Iron Lung, either. How is there a continuity error when you're dealing with someone choosing their own image in the afterlife? This is not a new concept. And it shouldn't be something too hard for anyone to accept, either.

Most fanboys will praise up and down the depth, the mythical aspects, the gripping storytelling, but can't explain to you how or why any of that works in the context of the story in any real way, shape or form, beyond the most basic and rudimentary understanding of a potboiler or soap opera plotline. They're really quick to recite what some other semi-intelligent fanboy spouted off on some other messageboard, but if left to their own devices, they couldn't really tell you why some things simply don't work in a Star Wars setting, and why some things do.

Hell, most fanboys don't even take the time to actually learn just what the hell it is they're talking about. It's not as if there aren't about 3 or 4 biographies of Lucas, or 10 or 12 books detailing the making of the Star Wars Trilogy, or 5 or 6 different documentaries about the filming of the movies, and yet even the simplest anecdotes and easiest explanations are total blanks in their rhetoric, filled in by more soap opera characterization, and frustrated projection substituting for actual knowledge of the subject. People are certain that Lucasfilm is a giant mega-corporation with it's own CIA, bureau's and thousand-person staff, all top secret spies and subterfuge in every daily move, and they make sure to ascribe the most cliche, mustache-twirling 30's serial villain motives to any creative decision they don't agree with.

There's a lot most fanboys don't know, and I've found that most fanboys dont' WANT to know, because that might actually force them to stop and look at the shit they spew constantly, and realize how misguided, and often misinformed they are. How reactionary and petulant they sound. How irrational and improbable their little theories are, how amateur and cliche'd their creative re-writes are. Most fanboys don't want to hear any of that, because most fanboys aren't actually fans of star wars. They're fans of BITCHING about Star Wars.

That's most fanboys.
Post
#60855
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/60855/action/topic#60855
Time
I liked a good amount of what he did with Attack of the Clones, actually. As I said, it's kinda similar (but different) to what Burtt did with his IMAX edit. I think a good exercise would be to try to replicate that IMAX edit with maybe a couple additions (if the Imax edit doesn't make it onto a future DVD anyway) I thought the Padme's family stuff helped, and I preferred the Obi/Mace talk from the deleted scenes to the Yoda/Obi/Mace talk that eventually replaced that in the theatrical version.

As far as TPM goes..that I didn't like so much. I liked some of the IDEAS, but I'm not so sure magnolia's creative decisions there were really any better than Lucas'. The major problems with TPM can't be fixed with editing. you need to reshoot/recast. There's only so much you can do.

And aside from the Radio Dramas--nah, never really thought about re-editing Star Wars. I pretty much like em how they are, and what I don't like, I just fast forward past. I don't think I've watched ANY star wars movie all the way through in about 3 or 4 years. Even the original trilogy. I just kinda skip around. I find myself so familiar with these films that any slow points just seem to drag out THAT much longer. So I basically turn every viewing into a Star Wars Greatest Hits mixtape

I once helped write up a VERY extensive list of shots and cuts that you could make to edit Matrix Reloaded/Matrix Revolutions into one 3 hour movie, but never actually followed through with it--but i'm sure a couple other people have. Hell, I had fun just debating/brainstorming about what the cuts would do and what things we had to keep even if we didn't like them because removing them would weaken parts later on. Stuff like that. It became less of an excercise in editing and more an exercise in puzzle solving.
Post
#60850
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/60850/action/topic#60850
Time
oh, and one last thing--for those not wanting to be spoiled..I'd avoid this one:

I know what happens in George's III. Dooku is dead too quick to really change anything... and then, in his 5 minutes of screentime, they have to reveal him as a Sith yet again to the Jedi, or never make reference to him being a Sith again.


That would be choice b . The audience already knows from Episode II, and the Jedi already know. We don't HAVE to see them finally decide on it, with that 2 year gap and the audience's recognition of it, it helps narratively to jump ahead a couple steps. Lucas employed the same trick between ANH and ESB by having Vader track down Skywalker for blowing up the Death Star. We saw luke do it, so when ESB starts 2 years later, and Vader knows it too, it's easy to accept that he just figured it out in that space of time.

Same thing here. It's pretty obvious he's a sith. And Palpatine uses Dooku to help turn Skywalker. Skywalker's FINAL turn comes later in the film, but Dooku finally realizes too late in the movie what Palpatine is doing--and there's a lot of subtext you're going to lose if you make Dooku NOT a Sith. Palpatine is openly auditioning Anakin and Dooku much like he does Luke and Anakin in ROTJ. You lose THAT subtext as well if you make Dooku not a sith.
Post
#60848
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/60848/action/topic#60848
Time
What edits have you made bizzle? Send them to me.

Whoa..wait. So okay--what I say doesn't carry any weight with you until I give you some stuff for free? What the hell is that? I don't even really get the point you're making. For one, I'm not HAMMERING the guy. Nor am I disrespecting him. We're talking. He apparently doesn't want to. he says he's not taking it personally, but apparently he is. I apologize for that, it's not my intention. I think the debate springing from his editing choices is pretty good, and I believe it's causing some of the readers here to look at this stuff a little more indepth than before. But it wouldn't be much of a discussion board if all anyone did is pat people on the back for sending them free shit, right?

Besides, about 3 years ago, I re-edited the radio dramas to make them more film like--using original score and sound effects for transitions between parts, cutting out each episodes opening narration and credits, deleting lines here and there that were a little extra corny and/or redundant, and basically making a 13 half hours into four 70 minute (for easy CD burning) parts. Did the same for ESB and ROTJ. And I very freely mailed them out to quite a few people, as well--including a Lucasfilm employee. Apologies that I never got one to you. Apparently, that way, you'd actually consider the points I make instead of dismissing them outright because I didn't hook you up with goodies

anyway, back to the Magnolia Fan:

Right down to the "I am your father" scene still being a surprise in ESB.

There is no way you're going to preserve that. can't happen. Unless you're planning on making a Magnolia Fan edit of Episode IV. Which would, I think, manage to piss off your fanbase here, considering where "here" is.

Ben's speech to Luke in the hut pretty much wraps that all up. There's no way around it--not counting what happens in Episode III (the montage editing of the last few sequences will damn near make it impossible for you to extricate any Anakin/Vader shots to keep the mystery intact). The instant Ben mentions a young pupil of his named Darth Vader destroying his father, it's all over. even a 6 year old would put 2 and 2 together. Ben's only had one pupil. He was a padawan until he got to train Anakin. And then Anakin and Palpatine killed everyone. If the only student Ben ever had was Anakin, then it's pretty obvious who this "Darth Vader" is that he's talking about. Especially if you've watched the first three.

and just because a Jedi Knight/Master ceases to be a Knight/Master, doesn't mean he's not still a Jedi.


According to Mace Windu, it does.

"You do know that Count Dooku was ONCE a Jedi.."

Meaning no longer IS a Jedi. I don't remember if you cut that line or not, to tell the truth. Sorry.

Don't know where you got that quote from.
Those words were never spoken by me.
What was that about putting words into people's mouths?


Oh, c'mon. As if that wasn't your intent. No, you never spoke those specific words. I paraphrased based on the tone of that one paragraph. Would you really describe those movies in the tone and manner you did if you DIDN'T beleive the movies were, in fact, shitty and infantile? Maybe "shitty" is a little harsh, but I like the sound of the word.

You keep saying that I ruined the film


See, this is why I keep thinking you're taking this a lot more personally than you say you are. I never said anything like "your life is these edits" at all, nor did I infer that. But obviously, fan editing films and posting on messageboards are the pastimes of people who aren't exactly TOO worried about "Wasting time."

I haven't said anything like you ruined the film. I'm saying I think some of the choices you made don't fit real well with what's going to come next. And then we get into why. It's certainly more than "no it's not" "Yes it is" because we're going down different roads and branches from that main topic. If you wanna reduce it to "This bickering is pointless" you can, but that feels like a cop-out. You can write that off by using the example of your friend saying cutting out midichlorians would ruin Episode II, but it's obvious that guy didn't know what was really going to go on in Episode II.

I think it's useful, because it shows how some people are considering some things in these prequels "Mistakes" when it's not really a question of "mistake" but a question of being able to interpret the meaning behind the action in the story from more than one simple angle. I think you might have misjudged a couple angles, that's all, and I figured it'd be interesting to find out why you made the choices you did, and see if I can't add to that to maybe show there's a possibility that what you see as a "mistake" isn't exactly a mistake if you're taking it for more than face value.

Shit, it can't hurt
Post
#60768
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/60768/action/topic#60768
Time
Originally posted by: MagnoliaFan
As far s the red saber being established by Sith because of Maul and Vader...
There is no Vader. This is Episode II. Only Maul has been seen with one. Hardly a precedent.

The films don't exist in a vaccuum, though. There is a Vader. And there is a Dooku. It's definitely a precedent. I mean--you're not really re-editing these in the belief that sometime down the road, there will be children of fans who will be introduced to the prequels via your edits? Cause that's the only hypothetical audience you could be making that argument for.

And you ask how the Jedi are infighting. If Dooku = Jedi, then a Jedi (Dooku) builds a huge army to topple the Republic.

But Dooku's not a Jedi, because even if you make him NOT a sith--he's still left the order. he's no longer a Jedi.

The Jedi defend the Republic. One Jedi and his droid army wipe out the bulk of the Jedi through the Clone Wars, while Sidious just watches and pulls the strings.

Which is exactly how Palpatine plays it to the rest of the senate and the republic in Episode III. As it stands. You don't need to re-edit anything to get to that point. That's how its' going to go down. Dooku is going to be Palpatine's patsy, and Palpatine is going to shove him and the rest of the Jedi by *loose* association under the bus IN PUBLIC.

If you don't think Nute Gunray is conniving enough to orchestrate this with Sidious, then you obviously never paid attention during my EP I. Most are of the opinion that my Gunray is every bit the equal in the evil department as Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine.

No, I see it, I still don't buy it. he sounds harder, but he still doesn't come off as anything more than a hired lackey. New dialog in the subtitles doesn't really give the character any more weight. There's some extra menace, but being as you're apparently pretty sensitive to criticism of your creative decisions, I don't know if I should go into any more depth on Gunray's changes.

Meaning that you haven't even seen my versions? I kind of figured that.


You'd figure wrong, but since you're apparently looking for an escape route, feel free to latch onto that one and use it as your out. I know you're looping and cutting dialog--I just don't remember anything specifically looped IN THAT PARTICULAR SCENE AT THE END OF EPISODE II. Not by Windu. Certainly not enough to explain your infighting theory. Unless I'm remembering something wrong, and you want to enlighten me. Considering these are your creative choices now.

This is like the film critic in Sacramento who actually had the nerve to say, "I watched the the trailer for the Two Towers... I don't need to see the film. The whole thing is one big video game. One and a half stars."


This is not at all like that. 1) I've seen your edits. 2) even if I hadn't, it's not as if the footage you're using isn't widely available on DVD. It's not as if nobody's never seen what you're editing from. This is nothing like judging it from a trailer. Not even close. But analogies aren't your strong suit

Really, these edits were made for fans of the OT who didn't like the prequels, to give them a new appreciation for them, not to give prequel gushers something to bitch about. Your precious version is still out there, complete with virgin births, midichlorians, fart jokes, redundant plot, inconsistant pace, that horribly acted and inexplicable love story, and stiff dialogue that yes, in several places has been relooped in my version from production audio and other sources.
Go enjoy it, just as the people here are enjoying mine. Life is too short to waste on senseless arguements over which one is better.


Whoa. Taking it personal much? I'm just discussing your edit with you. I'm not making any sort of personal judgment of you. Although the irony of someone who re-edited someone else's movie getting touchy when he starts facing a fraction of that same criticism isn't lost

But that's not the reason I'm debating it with you. It's not like ALL your cuts and edits are bad. A lot of the stuff you did in Episode II is similar to what Ben Burtt himself did with the IMAX edit of AOTC. And don't be so quick to blindly cast me as some sort of blind prequel "gusher" or whatever, either. You certainly dont' know enough about my stance on Episodes I and II to make anything short of an ill-informed statement as far as that goes. Episodes I and II have a whole bunch of problems. yes, there's fart jokes, virgin births, inconsistent pace, and one of the worst ever love stories put to film (or digital tape) but what I'm trying to discuss with you is that some of your edits DON'T HELP any of that. In fact, they make them worse and in some cases, it's going to seriously foul up what goes down in Episode III.

I mean, if life is too short to argue over plot points and deeper characterization (which is a pretty good debate we're having, by the way, bet you didn't think you could get that in-depth over something so "Shitty and infantile" huh.) then it's DEFINITELY too short to be re-editing already finished movies to the extent you're doing it, right? I mean, not to throw darts, but "time wasting" shouldn't really be an excuse in this instant.

I'm not even really arguing over which is better. I'm only arguing over SPECIFIC elements in YOUR edit relating to YOUR creative choices. Period. There's no reason to plug your ears and bail. This discussion isn't any more meaningless and time wasting than re-editing a movie you don't like. Not in the least. and if you can indulge in that, there's no reason you can't indulge in this, especially since I'm doing my best to keep it aboveboard, strictly friendly and evenhanded.

Post
#60744
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/60744/action/topic#60744
Time
Originally posted by: MagnoliaFan
To say Dooku was pure evil leaves a huge gaping problem.
He offerred to spare the Jedi. He gave them a chance to surrender, in exchange for their lives. Neither Maul, Vader, nor especially Sidious would have ever done that for a couple of hostages.

If you think that wasn't facetious....Once again, you're taking things entirely too simply and too literally and creating new problems to "Fix" something that wasn't really a problem in the first place if you look beneath the surface for more than 2 seconds.

The "all Jedi use blue or green and all Sith use red" was destroyed the moment Mace Windu ignited his saber, anyway. What is he, a half Sith? Half blue, half red...
At that moment, saber color became cosmetic.

No it didn't, beacuse all sith STILL use red. There's no destruction there at all. Mace's purple saber doesn't change that Vader, Dooku and Maul all tote red sabers, and it's very well established in the universe that the red saber is the bad one. I'm not trying to argue the purple saber. that has nothing to do with changing Dooku's saber from red (he is a sith) to yellow (whatever the hell that is)

I also don't see how your analogy works at all. Dooku's being a sith isn't really a giant mystery. Certainly not the driving mystery of the flick: Those mysteries are a) who's trying to kill Padme and b) who ordered these clones. And there's NO way Yoda doesn't know it after fighting him.

In the end of Clone War, the Jedi are still just as confused, but they are more divided. Yoda is sure that Dooku is the Sith Master. Mace Windu suspects that he is not and wants to keep an eye out for this "Sidious" and Obi-Wan is on the fence about it. Once again, just like with training Anakin, they are divided and incapable of making a decision. The arguement is more interesting in CW, because we don't know which one of them is right. It leaves the audience room to take sides.

I don't buy that at all, either. Unless you're looping new dialog, the jedi aren't divided at all. they're confused and cautious, but they're certainly not "tearing each other apart." or "incapable of making a decision" They made their decision on Anakin. There's no room created for the audience to take sides on, because there's only really two sides anyway--Good and Bad. You're trying to introduce a shade of grey into a subplot that isn't served by it. They know who the enemy is--they just don't know who else he's working with, and they don't really know how to fight him.

And George's version is the one that is going to be redundant in the end, since the Jedi still don't know for sure that Dooku is a Sith in II, only we do. That means that he is going to have to reveal it all over again in Episode III for the Jedi, unless the Jedi are just left thinking they got the master, until Sidious is revealed. In that case, it works just as well that he was not a Sith...


There are 2 years between movies. Same space of time it took Vader to learn that Luke was his kid from ANH to ESB. It's not at all implausible that the Jedi definitively find out, as we do, that Dooku is a sith. You don't have to "reveal it all over again" because with that time between flicks, you can just have the Jedi know, and the audience will fill in the blanks themselves. real easy. Helps add to the "in media res" feeling as well.

Personally, I think it is more interesting to think that the Nute Gunray and Palpatine suckered in a Jedi by telling him the truth. The truth turns out to be so outrageous that no one will believe him, and the frustration of screaming the truth in a crowded room and going unheard drives him mad, and he ends out decimating his entire order, all in the name of destroying the Sith... And all the while, all Sidious has to do is sit back and watch. The Jedi do it all for him.


....wha? He's frustrated with the Jedi for the same reason Qui-Gon is. Palpatine gets to him and preys on that weakness. It's much more interesting, to me, to have a Jedi Master get so sick of the jedi that he leaves of his own volition, as opposed to the cliche "Boy who cries wolf" scenario you're trying to shoehorn in. And even with your re-jiggering of the Gunray character, there's NO way he cons Dooku. he's not that good. And Palpatine isn't going to use him that closely.

The Jedi's downfall in the end is no different from the Sith's a millenia prior.
They wipe themselves out with their own infighting and the Sith just have to sweep in and play clean up at the end.


there is no Jedi infighting tho, so I don't know where you're getting that. Some of them are more arrogant than others, but there is no hint of any kind of grand split down the center of the Jedi, and certainly not to the point where they end up squaring off against each other. Making the Jedi more like the Sith doesn't help anything but to add some cynicism to a flick that doesn't really need any at that point. If the good guys are really no different than the bad guys at all, in a movie series this morally simple, then there's no reason to bother.

It just boils down to you mistakenly judging the importance of the Dooku revelation, and then editing to try to boost it to the level of the "twist" at the end of ESB.