Tack

so u donut liek bad gramer an speling u cey?

Good luck on finishing both the book and the fic. Both I'm quite interested in!

In regards to multiple continuities, just be glad you don't write for any comic series!

Sorry I haven't commented. This is quite good! It seems like the beginning of a very good novel. I am confused on one thing though, are you undoing Vader as Luke's father? It kind of seems like you are.

Well, sure the actual PLOT outline is the same, but the  details will be very different. There's only so much you can say in a list. I'll try to communicate my thoughts here as best I can.

I want there to be a new subplot with Luke having a recurring nightmare (the result of Vader attempting to get into his head), and I want his face to be scarred to hell from his last encounter. He'll, like I said, be an outcast from the group until the very end. Also, he has, again, used this time to train with Yoda, as you mention in the story. Luke's first scene should be him carrying out a successful version of the cave scene, to show growth.

The slaves I added because I realized that there was a humanity aspect missing if it were simply to be rebels vs empire. I figured they could be a mix of various humanoid races from various worlds, and could supply information to the alliance about interiors of various settlements. Also, the film needed some sort of pulse-pounder before the 3rd act. 

I figured Lando would be feeling really bad about the events of the last movie, and constantly trying to regain trust from Han, who would be unreceptive to his attempts. Maybe just as simple as a role-reversal for the sail-barge battle, making it so that Lando saves Han. In any event, trust would be restored by the time the battle was underway, and Lando would get control of the Falcon for the air-strike. On 2 conditions. 1. Not even the tiniest of scratches. 2. Chewie must come with. Of course, he ends up breaking the first one.

Vader and the Emperor should be on more untrustworthy terms. Vader is constantly going against orders. And the Emperor is aware of his secret plan to upheave him and take power for himself.  Luke merely provides a catalyst for both of them to take each other out.

I want the Death Star II not to be destroyed. 1. it's a change of pace. We've had the bunker scene before and it's too run of the mill for Star Wars. 2. It's a more effective and Jedi-like solution to end the fighting. Maybe it could be destroyed as soon as its passengers have been taken off, as more of a symbol of the Empire's dissolution than anything else. 

Ben and Luke's final conversation should dwell more on the fact of Luke's history, leading to the revelation that his sister and he were seperated long ago. Luke shares a similar conversation with Han and Leia (Leia mentions something along the lines of "they're considering it" in regards to their participation in gov't) The film ends with Luke leaving the city planet (yes I will keep calling it that), credits. It's both a more conclusive and more open-ended ending, in classic Star Wars sense.

If anyone has any other suggestions for possible changes, please, let's combine a list of what we'd want to see.

BTW, you're not a heretic if you're just wanting to explore some other possibilities.

timdiggerm said:

muddyknees2000 said:

It's rough, but here you go:

I was thinking about this, and perhaps Threepio could state that Han, Luke, Chewie & Leia (oh and Artoo) are to be a sacrifice/offering to some kind of grey beast: the AT-AT

That would be amazing! If it was the Ewoks' own idea, it would the perfect combination of humor, shock, and suspense. You're a genius!! 

Here's my attempt at a plot outline, scene by scene.

• Crawl
• Vader visiting the Emperor on the city planet (Emperor in the shadow throughout the scene)
• Luke on Dagobah, carrying out a successful version of the cave scene from ESB
• Lando, 3P0, and Leia preparing to leave for Jabba's palace
• 3P0 arriving at the palace gates, unwittingly gives Jabba a holographic message explaining that 3P0 is a gift (from Leia in her Boussh disguise this time)
• Vader arrives at Death Star II
• Luke constructing his lightsaber (Vader attempts to get into Luke's head)
• Yoda's Twilight and discussion with Ben (no Leia sibling)
• Leia and Chewbacca arrive in the palace, Chewbacce jailed
• Luke arrives at Tattooine
• Emperor arrives at Death Star II
• Leia unfreezes Solo, and the both of them are caught
• Luke arrives at the palace, and attempts to free them, Jabba sees through disguise and orders Luke and the rest to execution
• Dune Sea, Han and Luke reconcile, Lando and Han have uneasy relations, Leia kills Jabba
• All leave on Falcon, inside discussion, exposit rebel gathering
• Death Star II arrives at Endor (standard class-M planet)
• Rebel briefing, ( The assignment is different in this version. Endor mission is more espionage, Lando goes with them, Space mission is to be carried out later on, from the planet)
• Emperor and Vader discuss the plan to turn Luke
• Shuttle arrives at Endor, Vader once again attempts to get in Luke's head
• Ground mission (they take out imperial base, discover slave colony)
• Emperor sends Vader down to Endor
• Han attempts to train slaves, Lando and Han finally reconcile
• Night before strike, Luke attempts to converse with Ben, but fails, Vader attempts to attack, but Luke surrenders
• Leia discovers Luke missing, but Luke informs her he's fine
• Morning of the strike, Han capitulates Falcon to Lando and Chewie (not a scratch)
• Mid-Transit discussion between Vader and Luke
• Final plans are laid out, ships take off. Han and slaves begin to survey area for possible ways of getting to shield generator
• Air strike begins, Avenger is destroyed
• Luke is brought before Emperor, temptation begins
• Ground strike begins, Han is injured
• Air strike continues, Wedge dies
• Luke and Emperor, Luke is driven to duel with Vader
• Leia unsuccessfully attempts to breach shield
• Air strike, Falcon receives damage
• Luke and Vader duel, Luke attempts not to fight
• Leia attempts second break in, R2 is shot (badly)
• Luke is nearly driven to kill Vader, but stops, Emperor nearly kills Luke
• Air strike, Executor is brought down
• Vader kills Emperor, Luke brings a wounded Vader down to shuttle, Vader passes
• Leia destroys shield
• Luke makes an announcement to fleet, declares war over
• Planet celebration, Han berates Lando for damage to Falcon
• Luke and Ben have discussion on city planet (Ben mentions possible sister)
• Luke, Leia, and Han share discussion, Leia says they've begun reclaiming power
• Luke leaves on own to search for sister
• Credits

It could use work, but you get the gist.

If I could,  I'd attempt to do one with a count of 50,000-100,000. I'd even put it in script format, if I could manage it.

I do need good dialogue. I actually attempted to spitball my version of the ending here once, but gave up once I had to get to a point where a character would speak. I don't exactly consider myself the best authority on how these characters would react or speak, especially in the new circumstances they're presented with.  Maybe I'll test my skills, and try it out on you, or something. *shrugs*

^ I think that's what Kurtz wanted. He wanted a more open ended ending, so the possibility of a sequel trilogy would be easier. Lucas wanted closure.

Personally, Kurtz was right. Cliffhangers and open-endings are part of Star Wars' nature, and they either should have had an ending with more closure or a more open-ended one.

So, a moral problem I've been wondering about: WOULD Luke have gone back to Yoda? Think about it. He clearly feels betrayed by Yoda and Ben at the end of ESB, so the question is, would he have gone back? Or would he simply feel too betrayed to go back?

Eeeeh.....

Reegar said:

Ah, yes. . . the pre-ESB universe that has been systematically scattered and buried over these long years. If I excavate and uncover these things, the subsequent storm of nostalgia might wipe the speck that is me off the map.

But it'd be worth the risk. I hear from reliable sources that version of Star Wars is far more beautiful than the one we have now.

All right, I'll stop waxing poetic. I'm playing naive here.

By the way: kudos to the radio drama. ANH was at least good, the other two I don't know.

The actress for Leia had the most ALLURING female voice ever in existence. Vader and Han's took getting used to. Their voices are so radically different from their film counterparts that they feel like reinterpretations of the characters themselves. Obi-Wan sounded precisely the way a Merlin-type needs to sound, incidentally.

We could then go on in great detail about how the drama expanded on everything in the film, sometimes to great effect, with a sprinkling of the arbitrary in places. Overall superb. 10/10.

Ah, the pre-ESB universe was certainly a far more blissful existence. Heck, even after ESB there was still sort of this classic sic-fi element to it, completely missing from the prequels. 

By the way, ditto on the radio drama. The Star Wars one was by far the best.

Reegar said:

NeverarGreat said:

 

As far as Luke and Leia being non-siblings, it's curious: What if someone wrote an "alternate" ROTJ fan script or even directed an animated film, and had Luke and Leia romantically paired together? Even if everything in the story was objectively excellent, I suspect the fact they're siblings is too ingrained in fans, and they'd never be able to accept romance between the two. 

 

Strangely, they may be more willing to go for a Jaime/Cersei type romance, if only because "Game of Thrones" is big right now. Check back in two years or so when it loses steam.

 

The book you're looking for is "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" The quasi-romance between them kind of works if you can remember that it was written before Jedi, but I couldn't keep from cringing.

Should I seek professional help if their dynamic ends up titillating me? You'll share at least some blame for the recommendation. 

I'll put it on my To Read list.

If you place yourself into a 1978 mindset, not at all. That's what I do to read through the pre '83 comics and books. And the drama.

ben_danger said:

SSWR made a neat mockup aaaaages ago -

SSWR ROTJ ENDING

That's good, but Ackbar is unnecessary. Just have the Falcon and X-Wings fly off to vaguely triumphant/nostalgic music. Fade out. Credits. That seems strangely right.

It's not how I would end it (see the thread linked earlier) but I think it's the best way to end an edit.

ben_danger said:

Another gripe with Ewoks is how much they take over in the finale of the film. If we left them behind (and avoided the party on Endor) it might feel a little less imposing.

PREACH IT!!! They take up WAY too much of the finale. Heck, there's more shots of them than the heroes, I think. They seriously need to be cut down. let's get back to our heroes, please!

So, anyone ever read the 1970's Power Records comic where Uhura was white and Sulu was black? It happened.

If you're really trying to get a theatrical coloring down, check this thread out:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Colortiming-Cinematography-was-What-changes-was-done-to-STAR-WARS-in-93/topic/9805/

The canyon scene is a big discussion, but do not believe the 1986 laserdisc. It's not timed right. It's supposed to be twilight, and the 2006 DVD is pretty accurate.

Reegar said:

Tack said:

Yeah, I get that. I guess I'm just too opposed to Ewoks in general.

I level with you there.

It's a shame we can't go with your plans from the How would you have handled Episode VI (6)? thread: forget Ewoks; Stormtroopers versus uniformed Rebels; Leia saves the day.

Oh believe me, I wish. Leia is in serious lack of some badass action moments for herself, even though her male co-stars have had plenty of. Don't get me wrong, she's far from a damsel. She carries her own in a speeder-bike battle and kills a few people by the end of the trilogy. But taking out a generator, THAT would even everything out. 

ray_afraid said:

^I forgot about that. There's a ton of ideas for a ROTJ edit there. Anyone looking to start one would benefit from checking that out,

Yeah, but this is more about a total rewrite of the existing material. It's changes that COULDN'T be carried out no matter how hard we tried to edit it. STuff like what I mentioned, or the lists in that "How would have done ROTJ differently" thread. But, yes. That is a cool thread.

These came from the DVD menus, didn't they? Anyway, I agree. Especially Series 2.

aalenfae said:

I don't mean vicious like they're ripping off limbs and eating the stormtroopers or anything xD
I just mean to make them more dangerous and aggressive. Not just teddy bears jumping on top of the stormtroopers and killing them somehow. They have spears and arrows, for instance, yet we really only see ONE arrow do any damage. 

The stormtroopers are too wussy because the Ewoks are too invincible and have no credibility as combatants. If we add some shots of Ewoks being fearsome, as well as Stormtroopers being more effective at dispatching them, both problems are fixed.  

Yeah, I get that. I guess I'm just too opposed to Ewoks in general. I do agree, if we saw some more effective ground weapons and some non-violent deaths for both sides (basically anything less than Conquest of the Planets of the Apes), I'd be fine.

BTW, my only perception of vicious meaning gore just came from that one OWENSCUSTOMS diorama of the Ewok removing a stormtrooper heart. That's what I want to avoid. :)

DuracellEnergizer said:

What I would have done:

Replaced the Death Star II with an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer, and have it serve as more of a setting rather than a MacGuffin. If that could merge with what I said about the Executor going down instead of the main threat, YES!! 

Cast a young, attractive actress to play Palpatine. Clive Revill would have been retained as the voice of Palpatine. That would be GREAT! An extra layer of creepiness to him, like the Talosians.

I would have had Palpatine's little cadre in the beginning of the film consist of Sith Lords/Dark Jedi instead of funny looking men in goofy headgear. This would show that Vader isn't the only high-ranking darksider in service to the Emperor, and it would help to set up a sequel trilogy. Hmm, interesting. I like this too, you're a machine!

I still would have kept the "rescue-Han-from-Jabba's-palace" subplot, but reworked it heavily to make it work better (I don't know precisely how I would go about doing this, however). Just shorten it. That's what I'd do.

Placed Jabba's palace on another, new, world rather than on Tatooine. You better believe it. Part of an adventure storyline is seeing new places, and the Star Wars films have a tendency to meander around the same 4 or 5 planets. Keep it fresh, people!

Omitted the stupid "from a certain point-of-view" speech. Ben will admit he lied, but that he did it only in Luke's best interests. Again, good idea.

Omitted the bit with Leia as Luke's sister/Vader's daughter. YES!! Whole thing just comes off as pointless, to me. 

I would have shown Sullust. What purpose would it serve?

Changed the Ewoks to Trandoshans, Bossk's race (hey, I'm trying to be original, here!) I already stated my opinion on the Ewoks. I don't even really think they need replacements. Just keep it to human combat, just new and inventive. It takes too much story to introduce them, time that could be spent elseqhere.

Changed the whole method of how Palpatine & Vader go about seducing Luke to the darkside to make it more believeable. The whole "if-you-strike-me-down-in-hatred-you'll-join-me" bit is just dumb and smacks of future PT developments. Eh, I never had a problem with it. What would you change it to, exactly?

Had Han die heroically on Endor. You lost me. It's too bittersweet for what is the most part a triumphant adventure story. The death of Vader should be emotional enough, we don't need to hammer another one in. 

By the way, anyone agree with me that Han and Leia's relations to Lando are WAY too peachy-keen in the final film. There should be this tension, this distrust, this... unease! If they'd stayed together for more of the film (in my version, they would), this would have been a great dynamic to enforce. In fact, a lot of things probably could have reinforced more. Luke should have this mental scar from his face-off with Vader, or even have him try to block off his emotions, thus further alienating him from the group. 

Different, more uneasy relations between Lando/Han/Leia. This would be exacerbated by Han's being frozen for so long. It would add some more conflict to what are some pretty peachy relations. More discussions between characters.

Luke is more of an outcast in the group, until the very end. He has spent the time between movies (mere weeks in this version) at Dagobah, he's the last one to arrive at Tatooine, and he's (of course) absent for most of the battle. Make it understandable too. Vader TORTURES him mentally, constantly trying to get inside his head, throughout the whole film until he surrenders on Endor. Also, give him some scars from his brawl with Vader in the last film.

No Ewoks. Not even replacements. There are more troops  for both sides deployed on Endor, and we get some interesting combat,. Mainly, AT-AT's and snow speeders fighting on the ground. Lando and CHEWBACCA are up in the air, so one new character and one character we care about up there, to increase tension. Han gets shot early on in the battle, and Leia continues the ground strike on her own. R2 is shot, possibly even in worse shape than in the final film. Leia destroys the generator on her own.

No change to the Vader/Emperor/Luke stuff. It's perfect as is. Just change the final outburst a bit, to accommodate my next change...

Luke and Leia? Not related. Yoda's promised "other" from ESB is kept ambiguous, a mysterious promise for another tale.

Luke claims power for the rebellion via a mass announcement, before Death Star II can explode. The big destruction for the movie is the Executor, which goes out in far more of a bang. Namely, Chewie and Lando cause it. 

The film ends with Luke having a final convo with Ben on Courescant, where Ben discusses his pride in Luke for finally redeeming his father. And right before Ben fades out, he catches a glimpse of a man in robes, clearly his father. They both fade out, and Leia and Han come out, Han's arm in a sling. We hear that Leia's in power now, queen of the galaxy. The three share a conversation about their adventures, and the films end with the three of them staring off into the distance, together, once again.

What do you think?

CatBus said:

Some random internet dude said: Harmy is nerd royalty

I thought we were an autonomous collective.

Nonsense. We're living in a dictatorship!

Eh, I think the problem is that the STORMTROOPERS are too wussy. I mean, think about it.

The Ewoks forms of fighting on the ground (no traps) make sense, considering their culture (god I can't believe I just said that). The problem is, that should only hold them off for about a few seconds. Even assuming all the troops that we see fall down don't die, that's still some pretty weak-ass armor for them to be taken out so easily.

The traps on the other hand, while definitely effective, are WAY too advanced for them to be realistically built by them. If they'd stuck with the monsters, however, I could accept it.

And of course I don't want to go the way of them going more vicious, especially since I hate it when Star Wars does anything too gruesome (I'm talking to you ROTS).

God, Lucas was already in his control-freak phase during ROTJ wasn't he? I mean, that Black Friday thing was terrible of him!