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21-Apr-2005
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11-Dec-2006
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Post
#162972
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162972/action/topic#162972
Time
At the risk of flogging a dead horse...

Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Lying to Luke served what greater good? Did it prepare him to face Vader? Did it protect Luke?

Any presumption that Luke can't "handle the truth" flies in the face of everything Luke Skywalker does. The guy blows up the fu*king Death Star, I think he can handle an unpleasant truth about his father. Plenty of murderers have children. There is no statistical evidence that killers will have evil children who fall to the dark side. It's nonsense to say Luke is being "protected."

Hopefully, Obi-Wan is not a two-dimensional character. Whether his words to Luke were successful in protecting him or not has nothing to do with whether he would say them or not. At the time of their conversation, Luke had not yet blown up "the fu*king Death Star" and Ben couldn't use that as a judge of what he could or couldn't handle. Most murderers don't have supernatural powers. Even so, wards who are in a position to keep their children in the dark about their parent's wrongdoing often do so. Ben wasn't basing his choice of words on statistical evidence, but on his own feelings, right or wrong.

Ben felt responsible for Anakin's downfall and didn't want to be responsible for potentially leading Luke the same way. Maybe he was wrong to say what he did, but that doesn't mean it was out of character. After all, he'd been charged with watching over Luke specifically to keep him from Vader. Leia's message and it's consequences forced him to tell Luke more than he originally intended, and in the circumstances he would naturally be reticent to divulge all the secrets he'd been keeping for so many years.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Post
#162961
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162961/action/topic#162961
Time
A few brief thoughts: C3PX opening sounds good.

Cutting the Gungan city is tempting for narrative speed but I think ultimately a streamlined version of it will serve the plot better - it will seem a lot better with Jar Jar & Nass dubbed or subbed (see BotF). Obviously only one "bigger fish" at most. The waterfall scene is both bad and pointless, it was well cut in the first place - I think some fan edits put it in just to seem different from the original.

Dooku in Ep I? I don't see how this won't seem tacked on, and distract from MTH's stand-alone ideal, which is a good one.

Maul = Grievous? No comment.

A special edition is a good idea, as it gives time to get one out, let the dust settle, and then be objective about what worked and what didn't.
Post
#162757
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162757/action/topic#162757
Time
Yes! That's what I'm talking about (well, everything except the flashback).

I will be convinced about Maul = Grievous when I see a flawlessly smooth scene which tells the story of it. I'm not holding my breath.

Agreed with those who want less subtitles than BotF - what about MagFan's dialogue for Jar Jar, but spoken in English? Even the Neimoidians could be re-dubbed in English with new dialogue.

I repeat that making Sidious into Dooku will probably have a negative effect on MTH's streamlining plans. Beware of change for change's sake.
Post
#162542
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162542/action/topic#162542
Time
Sounds good to me. Simplicity is indeed the key and I think all your suggestions work well together.

On the subject of Jar Jar, as TM is dubbing Anakin for II, it seems the appropriate action would be to dub Jar Jar throughout. More work, yes, but ultimately who could be satisfied with his current voice/dialogue? MagFan had great results changing his dialogue, and subtitles would be the other option.
Post
#162458
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162458/action/topic#162458
Time
Originally posted by: Trooperman
1. Whatever we do, I don't want it to be of a cut-and-paste nature; the ultimate goal is to make it seem as though it was always this way. It was released this way.
I'm glad to hear you say this, TM. I think this is the most important point to remember.
2. I agree that we need some kind of explanation for Maul=Grievous. It's just far too much of a stretch for me otherwise. Someone made a VERY good point; the confrontation between Obi-Wan and Grievous is not at all appropriate for Obi-Wan facing the man that killed his master. He makes cocky, "funny" comments, like "hello there", "you're move", and "So uncivilized." Remember how furious he was in Episode I?
If this isn't addressed convincingly, I think Maul=Grievous would have to go.
3. I actually don't have a German copy of Episode I yet.

The German DVD can be got from amazon.de or ebay.de. Otherwise, you might be able to get a rip of the dialogue track from a German forum member (if there is one).
4. If I'm understanding correctly, there was an idea to turn Sidious in Episode I to Count Dooku? If so, that's a VERY interesting idea because all the mystery would be there and the scenes containing Sidious wouldn't have to be scrapped. We still want this movie to be feature length Also, it would make Dooku a permanent character throughout all three prequels, which is good. Episode I would be the set-up, and he would come out into the open in Episode II. And as it was brought up, it's a revelation to the audience when Dooku shows up at Sidious' place at the end of Episode II. Dooku isn't the head honcho. Of course, this would mean that Palpatine had trained two Sith at once.... Am I understanding this correctly?

This is an interesting idea - but it could weaken the plan to strengthen Nute Gunray.
Post
#162351
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162351/action/topic#162351
Time
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
This might work as long as we get an indication before Maul goes to Tatooine that Nute has an ace up his sleeve.

"Oh no!" says the flunky "Amidala's escaped!"

"No. She is never beyond my grasp."

"But if she should reach the Senate..."

"She will never see the Senate again."

Love this idea! Then Maul shows up in the landing scene, then reports back to Nute.

Post
#162345
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162345/action/topic#162345
Time
Maul's arrival on Tatooine is unnecessary. He could appear first when he duels Qui-Gon on Tatooine. I don't think not knowing exactly what's going on prevents enjoying the ride. It's a tried and tested narrative device to enter storylines as late as possible while not creating too much confusion. After all, there's no scene in ANH where Tarkin tells Vader to take a star destroyer and capture the blockade runner.

I tend to agree with Mask about Maul = Grievous creating more problems than it solves. But if InfoDroid wants to cut MTH's scene as a test, I'm prepared to be convinced.
Post
#162342
Topic
.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162342/action/topic#162342
Time
Scratch that - I just remembered a couple of other things that were changed in '97:
all the wipes (a small point, but not insignificant, and anyway I liked the old ones better)
the snowspeeder matting on Hoth (this was arguably the only improvement in the SE, but obviously still wouldn't qualify as preservation).

The wipes would mean having to switch from DVB to LD just for one shot before and after the wipe, which I think would show up too much, or else using so much LD material that you may as well go the whole hog. Oh well, it was good for fifteen minutes.
Post
#162340
Topic
.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162340/action/topic#162340
Time
I just got the WookieeGroomer set and it really shows up how many changes were made for the 2004 DVDs. But it also shows how much more detail you can see in the image, which is not available from the LD. Now I am of the opinion that using the DVDs is a non-starter as far as preservation goes, as every frame has been altered by grotesque over-saturation, colour "correction" and contrast boosting (even where there aren't any new CGI elements) in a way that cannot be undone. However, aren't there huge swathes of the 1997 Special Edition wherein the picture is identical to the original release (all except the scenes with new CGI elements)? Would it be possible to use one of the DVB recordings like those used for the GKar or "TB" DVD sets for the majority of the picture, reverting to X0 LD caps for scenes which were altered in '97?
Post
#162336
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162336/action/topic#162336
Time
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
We'd see Amidala escape from Naboo, see no response from the Trade Federation, but suddenly see a guy in black arrive on Tatooine and send out droids. The droids find Qui Gonn -- they fight, Qui Gonn escapes -- and... what just happened?

Precisely! So the movie is one step ahead of the audience, rather than the other way around. Then we see Maul report back to the Neimoidians, before going to Naboo, and it all starts to make sense.

Post
#162320
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162320/action/topic#162320
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
I don't think there is any real way to show the process Maul went through to become the cyborg Grievous of Episode III.
Agreed.
The way I envisioned it was Grievous monologing to Obi-Wan at the start of their duel in III, explaining what all he had to go through because of him. Maybe a, "I had to stay in suspended animation for a decade before the technology was available to make me what I am now. This is not an existance worthy of a Sith, Kenobi. And it's all because of you."

CC, I really like some of your ideas, but not this one. This is like comic-book exposition and as such weakens both Maul and Grievous. The most important factor in suspending the audience's disbelief is to have believable characters. This would pull me right out of the movie right away.
And we need to establish Grievous' objectives in Episode I. He is on Tatooine in search of Amidala for the Trade Federation. Perhaps he does notice Anakin as he flees to the ship an mentions this to Qui-Gon (I suggested some rough dialogue in an earlier post). After failing to capture the Queen, he goes to Naboo with the Trade Federation, waiting for the Queen and the Jedi to return? This is what makes it so hard without Sidious. It would indeed be cool to have Grievous after the vergence in the force, Anakin, but I just don't see how to convey that or even go anywhere with it with the material we have available to us.

I'm thinking along these lines: the Neimoidians think Maul's working for them to get Amidala, but he has a secret mission from Sidious to get Anakin. Again, this doesn't need to be explicit, just suggested like MTH said earlier. Although it would be interesting if Maul somehow let slip about "the chosen one" in Qui-Gon's presence.
Post
#162204
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162204/action/topic#162204
Time
I don't object in principle to Maul=Grievous. I just wonder what he did for the ten years after TPM and during AotC? This would have to be explained as well as his rescue/reconstruction and I can't see there being enough (if any) appropriate material to do it without it being really scrappy. It's always worth a try, but I think you should be prepared to lose the idea if the execution doesn't live up to it.

Infodroid - watched the new clip. Better, as the WS and OTS shots give it a more natural feel than the other one. The lack of Maul material shows, though. Depending on where you end up putting it in the storyline, you could try playing most of the scene without seeing Maul until the end, thus using that one shot as a reveal. This would work if it's the first time we see him, but not if you follow my earlier suggestion about Tatooine being his first appearance. Overall, I prefer the latter. The prequels have a lot of telegraphing (we're going to do this, now here we are doing it) which is not like the OT. We don't need to know what Maul is up to or who he works for until he fails to get Anakin and then reports back.
Post
#162102
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162102/action/topic#162102
Time
Originally posted by: InfoDroid
I still believe his entire involvement in the story, as well as Anakin's role, would be strengthened if his sole purpose was to locate and retrieve the "vergence in the Force".

I agree with this and everything you said about the Neimoidian/Maul scene. But here's another idea: put this scene after the Tatooine scenes, rather than before. The reason I suggest this is that it gives Maul a better introduction in the movie if he just shows up and we don't know who he is or what he's doing, then later we see him report to the Trade Federation. Kinda like Vader and Tarkin.
Post
#161897
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161897/action/topic#161897
Time
MTH, I remember your Qui-Gon helps Anakin post from Trooperman's thread - it sounded great, as I recall, so bring on the TPM round-up! Did you just say you'd be for cutting the reference too if you thought we could get everyone on board? Do you mean what CC means? And CC, you say "We are indeed removing the entire aspect of Qui-Gon discovering the path to immortality." When was that posted, did I miss something? How does this tie in with your force-ghost finale?

In the OT, it seemed like all Jedi (as opposed to Sith) had the power to become force ghosts. We only saw three because they were the only three in the OT. It seems like the simplest way would be to forget about Qui-Gon discovering the immortality secret, since this does not happen onscreen, even in the PT. Is this what you had in mind?
Post
#161871
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161871/action/topic#161871
Time
I agree with Hardcore Legend and MTH: there's no logical inconsistency with both Qui-Gon and Anakin not disappearing, yet becoming force ghosts. (What is mesa sayin'? This sounds more like a Bizzle comment than a THX one).

But I do feel that Qui-Gon, sensing he might fail, prepared for the other side in advance, while Maul was held back by the red force-field. It wasn't explicit and could be interpreted in many ways but it was reminiscent of Ben's calm before he disappeared in ANH.

To be honest the whole Qui-Gon discovers the secret of immortality sub-plot isn't too hot. It would be better just to cut it than run rings trying to explain it. (Aah, that's more like it, THX).