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THX

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21-Apr-2005
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11-Dec-2006
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Post
#222772
Topic
Remember when everyone hated Return of the Jedi?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/222772/action/topic#222772
Time
A lot of people nowadays cite the loss of the 3 Ks as SW's downfall: Kershner & Kurtz for Jedi, Kasdan for the prequels. Kersh & Kurtz may well have made Jedi better, but there was talk at the time ('83) that Kasdan may have been part of the problem. After all, Jedi's script (Kasdan) was weaker than Empire's (Brackett & Kasdan), so, logically, Brackett was a genius and Kasdan a hack (at the time, Lucas was seen as infallible). Of course, history has shown that Lucas was probably the main culprit.
Post
#222722
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/222722/action/topic#222722
Time
It's an interesting area. The 4-track master would have been mixed in a theater, to include a satisfactory dynamic range. The limiting mentioned would have been added afterward, not as a creative decision, but as a compromise due to the available technology (sound familiar?). So, following your suggestion for the Dolby stereo track would actually be a good example of (getting closer to) presenting the mixers' original vision (used here in the pre-Lucasian sense), even though it was not theatrically presented this way.

Similarly, the 70mm mix was a trial method used to take advantage of new technology. As Dave Schnuelle explained, that technology came to be used differently, so the '93 mix was a somewhat fudged attempt to update the '77 mixes to a contemporary style.

Ultimately you have to ask if you're looking for "theatrical authenticity" or the best representation of the original mix(es) with today's home theater set-ups, which are arguably two different things.
Post
#222569
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/222569/action/topic#222569
Time
Belbucus, sorry if I phrased my first post confusingly.
Originally posted by: THX
Now we know that the '93 mix combined some of each, with additional effects.
Originally posted by: belbucus
I re-read the excerpt and can find this stated nowhere. It seems clearly outlined that the basic track for the ’93 mix comes from the 6-track print master only. Well, it combined 4 tracks ("some") of the 6-track print master and an effects-only master (which I grant you is not really "some" of the 4-track master in the same sense), with additional effects. Also, when I said:
Originally posted by: THX
What's most interesting is the description of how the original 70mm 6-track mix for Star Wars was derived from the 4-track master. I should have italicized the "how". However, the 6-track mix was indeed derived from a 4-track master, as I think is implied in your original quote:
Originally posted by: belbucus, quoting Dave Schnuelle
...what they did to derive the boom channel was to filter out the bass of the complete mix, containing dialogue, music, and effects, and add it back in as the Left Extra and Right Extra channels. Additionally, here is a quote from a July 1977 article in American Cinematographer by Ioan Allen:

Because of the dual release requirements, six-track 70mm and stereo optical, a four-track master was prepared, carrying left, center, right and surround information. At the end of the mix, the four-track was used to prepare a two-track running master for stereo optical use, and the same four-track was also taken to Todd-AO where it was used to make a six-track running master for 70mm.

The complete article can be found here. Anyway, I appreciate your insights into this and look forward to your comparison audio files.
Originally posted by: scotactor
On "Star Wars" [...], in order to present the two multichannel soundtracks [...] as closely as possible to the theatrical originals, they should use the 4-track master mixes.
Agreed. This is what I meant by:Originally posted by: THX
...for home theater, a mix derived from the 4-track master should, in fact be better.

Originally posted by: scotactor
The article didn't mention if the 4-track for ANH still exists, but I would assume it's a major possibility.
One would hope so, but the article above casts doubt on this, as they settled for the 6-track print master.Originally posted by: scotactor
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like using the 4-track plus the effects-only master (since home theater setups only use one LFE channel ".1"), both 70mm soundtracks for ANH and Empire can be presented on DVD as a Dolby Digital 4.1 mix.
This is one way a 4.1 mix could be made for SW. Another would be using the 4 tracks of the 6-track print master plus the effects-only master (similar to what was done in '93 but with discrete tracks). Both of these would work reasonably well, but neither would be accurate to the theatrical presentation. A more authentic way to make a 4.1 mix would be to use only the 6-track print master, folding the two "baby boom" tracks into one.

ESB is a different story. The 4-track master mix referred to was used for the 35mm prints. As there are known differences between this and the 70mm mix, it could not form the basis of a 70mm mix reconstruction (regardless of the addition of LFE). Again, a 4.1 mix would best be derived using only a 6-track print master.Originally posted by: scotactor
Presenting a near-exact copy of the 2-track Dolby Stereo mix would be a bit easier. The 4-track master can simply be matrixed into a new Lt/Rt print as a 2.0 Dolby Surround mix, which upon playback decodes to recreate the 4 channels.
Yes and no. While the 4-track masters would likely be the best sources for Dolby stereo mixes, simply matrixing them into 2.0 wouldn't accurately recreate the theatrical 35mm mix. For that, you'd have to limit them (as they were at the time for the capability of optical sound tracks with Dolby A-type noise reduction).
Post
#221272
Topic
Info Wanted: What is the preservation project closest to the original 1977 release?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/221272/action/topic#221272
Time
Originally posted by: Vigo
You guys might be interested in the fact, that the German dub on my 1995 THX Laserdisc was apparently made using the original mono track, since ALL sound effects and ALL dialogue matches the mono sound examples i heard on the page.
I'm not sure I understand this, Vigo - how can the dialogue match if it's a German dub?

Post
#220662
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/220662/action/topic#220662
Time
Thanks for that, belbucus, it provides a real insight into a much discussed topic here. What's most interesting is the description of how the original 70mm 6-track mix for Star Wars was derived from the 4-track master. This is basically what I had assumed, but was unsure of. What it means to me is that the perceived "holy grail" of the 70mm mix is not that at all, and that for home theater, a mix derived from the 4-track master should, in fact be better. Now we know that the '93 mix combined some of each, with additional effects. What I would love to read is a similar explanation about the creation of the '85 mix.