SparkySywer

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t see why people are so disappointed that the prequels didn’t include some mind-blowing revelations that would change the way we looked at the OT. Adding needless complications to a prequel of an already existing franchise tends to feel contrived (case in point: Star Trek Discovery). Even then, they already introduced some ideas people weren’t expecting, most importantly the clones being the good guys and the Republic falling from within.

I don’t think anyone’s disappointed by it. At least to my knowledge. Personally, if there really was some trick about Palpatine not actually being the Emperor or not actually being the big evil guy in control, I think it would’ve been really awful.

G&G-Fan said:

SparkySywer said:
In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

HAHAHAHAHAHA (this isn’t even hyperbole I actually laughed so hard upon seeing this)

This proves you didn’t actually watch the movies. Yoda says to not underestimate the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Not Empire Strikes Back. Force lightning is in Return of the Jedi.

I would think people on a forum called ORIGINALTRILOGY.COM would actually know jack and shit about the original trilogy.

SparkySywer said:

Watch the movies, because you clearly haven’t. I literally just provided examples for you completely ignored them. And another purist due literally AGREED WITH ME.

Also regarding Bede’s comments, what he suggested is another valid way to incorporate Yoda in the prequels, so I can’t really say you’re wrong, but I like what they actually did. I also don’t find the duels in AOTC and ROTS fake, I think they’re great, especially the ones in ROTS. Shadiversity (a guy who actually knows sword fighting) even did a video analyzing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel move-by-move and he thinks it’s fantastic and one of the best choregraphed duels in films (he also analyzed the Last Jedi duel and found it to be absolutely horrible). But again, whether something looks fake to you is rather subjective so I can’t really say you’re wrong.

I’ve watched the whole saga multiple times and I’ve never heard of “Death Vader”. Must be in the alternate universe versions of the movies you watched, because clearly we haven’t been watching the same ones.

Also how is the Tragedy of Darth Vader story not coherent? He becomes a Jedi (rises), becomes evil in the third movie, is evil for the next two movies and the greater part of the sixth one, and then redeems himself at the end of said sixth one. “Not being coherent” would be if Vader was a good guy in ESB.

Lmao, Yoda says similar things in both RotJ and Empire. My bad. CTRL+F’ing on the RotJ and ESB scripts didn’t help me today

Looks like another feminist wrecked by hero prequel fan G&G

G&G-Fan said:

It’s established in Revenge of the Sith that he became Qui-Gon’s apprentice, it doesn’t take much to realize that the change in his character between the prequels and the originals was because his perspective changed during his exile.

So… off-screen and not actually a thing in the prequels?

There’s not even any EU stuff that covers what Yoda did between ROTS and ESB. Guess who also had character development between films? Luke, between ESB and ROTJ. He grew from rash and impatient to collected and wise. But I guess that wasn’t actually in the movies.

There’s EU stuff that covers absolutely everything. The Old EU had a full backstory for the guy running around with an ice cream maker in Empire, the New EU has a full backstory for the guy who gets choked out by Vader in ANH.

He didn’t say “Don’t underestimate the Emperor’s ability to manipulate people”, he said “The powers of the Emperor.”

In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities, they’re worried that the path he’s going down will lead him to the same fate as Anakin.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

Also the force in the prequels isn’t just superpowers and fights.

I think both strategies for writing a prequel are valid. Writing them with an Episodic Order in mind is valid, especially since Star Wars has these episode numbers which at least beg the question on why they are what they are. Writing them with a Release Order in mind is valid, because, well, they were released in that order. Giving out information and developing the story in that order makes sense because the newer stuff builds on the older stuff like every other story.

The Tragedy of Darth Vader stuff is kind of the worst of both worlds, though. You get the OT story spoiled like a Release Order would, but it’s not a coherent enough story to justify the Episodic Order mindset. The two trilogies might as well be entirely atomized stories.

G&G-Fan said:

Mocata said:

Ahh but there’s the real problem, and keeping all of the ESB twists intact would require far more creativity.

Or maybe because it would contradict more lines from the original trilogy? Like Yoda knowing who Luke’s father was enough to say “Powerful Jedi was he” and “Much anger in him… like his father”.

He can know Anakin without having been in the Jedi Order. Not to mention, Yoda says that he’d been watching Luke all his life, despite being on Dagobah for 19 years. Maybe Yoda just knows this shit.

I don’t necessarily think Yoda being outside the (main?) Jedi Order is the only or even best way to go. But it would’ve made for a much better characterization than… whatever the hell you could call the Yoda we got.

How else would he know to “Not underestimate the powers of the Emperor”?

The Emperor’s clearly powerful and got to Anakin decades ago. Him getting to Luke is a huge risk. Plus, Yoda could have had experience with the Emperor without any of the changes to his character the prequels brought.

And how else would he learn “Wars not make one great” without having experienced that first hand.

Well, just knowledge of history, although that would be really boring. Really, there’s nothing wrong with him having first hand knowledge of the horrors of war, but it needs to have one of two things:

-An actual character arc of him learning the horrors of war, in the actual movies, and not from some EU writer trying to rehabilitate the prequels

-Or, push it back to before the prequels if you don’t want to deal with it, or if you want to have Yoda be a force for pacifism in the story.

Having him be an active, enthusiastic general and then inexplicably become a huge pacifist off-screen between movies, doesn’t make for a compelling story.

That’s another thing that a lot of people miss. When he says “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor” that obviously means he faced him before. Obviously he was witness to the Emperor’s power first hand. That actually becomes a plot hole for anyone who removes that duel from the movie, because now how else would he know the Emperor’s power? It fits into the original trilogy perfectly.

“Powers of the Emperor” doesn’t necessarily mean his skill at lightsaber fighting. Hell, the prequels recontextualizing everything about the Force and a Jedi’s power to be just Dragonball Z fights is the worst thing about them.

I’m not a super fan of conservative prequel rewrites, but Belated Media’s Episode III rewrite has a scene that deals with this plot point a hundred thousand times better, here, and also shows Palpatine’s rise to power in a more compelling way.

Belated Media’s really only putting the bare minimum in, in my opinion, but it’s leagues better than the story the prequels gave us. Because, well, these ideas are actually there in the story itself.

Mocata said:

People still argued about it at the time though. Not sure what the expected, as if Palpatine was going to be his brother or something.

A lot of people at the time expected the man who brought us Vader being Luke’s father to have something up his sleeve. Maybe Palpatine was a puppet controlled by some higher evil? Clones?

But it was played absolutely straight.

ShamanWhill said:

Fourthly, I think we need to have a more political plot line in the movie. Why is the Emperor building another Death Star? In Episode IV, Tarkin reveals that the Original Death Star was to be used to keep the Regional Governors in line with the Empire. So since the rebels destroyed the first one, are the Regional Governors not following the Emperors will? Just throwing a couple of lines that explains the state of the Galaxy would help tremendously.

It was actually there to keep the locals in line with the Regional Governors, but your sentiment is right.

NeverarGreat said:

Minutes before this he was self-assuredly walking into the Senate saying how Palpatine’s rule was about to end and his faith in Vader and the Dark Side was misplaced. These words may be bluster, but at the same time they don’t reveal a deep conflict within Yoda. He seems to only question himself once he loses the fight, at which point he has decided to run off into exile before the speeder has even left the air parking lot. Maybe if we saw him gazing out at the still-burning Jedi Temple, the virtual camera lingering on the sadness in his eyes as he comes to a conclusion, it would be clearer that he views his failure as something more than losing a single fight. But that’s not in the film, and I don’t see why I should do Lucas’s job for him.

What changed between when Yoda’s talking big to Palpatine and when he says “Failed, I have”?

Nothing to do with the Jedi or the Republic, or the Sith or the Empire. What changed is he lost a fight. That’s kind of what we have to go on, and that’s really the only real interpretation I think you can get from the movie itself.

Not to mention, why does he realize he’s failed then of all times, if he’s talking about some grand centuries-long, galaxy-defining failure? I’d say even before the fight, even if Yoda won, Palpatine getting as far as he did shows that something at least had failed. If this was all actually in the prequels, why wouldn’t he say this right when it became obvious that Palpatine was a Sith?

DuracellEnergizer said:

SparkySywer said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Wexter said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

The PT & ST reflect each other perfectly — equally terrible in diametrically polar ways.

Is this really an unpopular opinion? Thought it was cannon…

From what I’ve seen, most fans love one trilogy, loathe the other, or enjoy both. Fans who dislike both trilogies seem to be in the minority.

I don’t think fans who dislike both trilogies are so rare, moreso that they end up picking one side or the other on the internet.

Yeah

DuracellEnergizer said:

Wexter said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

The PT & ST reflect each other perfectly — equally terrible in diametrically polar ways.

Is this really an unpopular opinion? Thought it was cannon…

From what I’ve seen, most fans love one trilogy, loathe the other, or enjoy both. Fans who dislike both trilogies seem to be in the minority.

I don’t think fans who dislike both trilogies are so rare, moreso that they end up picking one side or the other on the internet.

Owned?

Z6PO said:

sade1212 said:

how fascism can come about.

You don’t need a decade long overly complicated secret plan to stage a coup (just look at the state of the world today). The PT (and The Clone Wars animated TV show) fail completely to be relevant as understanding politics (especially the TV show aimed at children: the more political arcs are dreadfully boring)

Gotta agree, Palpatine’s rise to power is completely inaccurate to how actual dictators rise to power. George Lucas compares Palpatine to Caesar, Hitler, and Napoleon, and none of their rises to power have any similarities to Palpatine other than that they gamed the system from the inside.

Caesar, Hitler, and Napoleon were natural consequences of centuries of building rot in the nations they took power in. What was this in the Galactic Republic?

For all the movies are concerned, Palpatine comes out of nowhere for no reason and wins because something something manipulation.

(not my video but this would probably take the cake for the worst edit idea)

DuracellEnergizer said:

Spuffure said:

I wonder how much longer I’ll last here… without completely fucking volcano.

By all means, fuck a volcano. Not a paraphilia I go for, but you do you. Just make certain it’s a dormant volcano you make passionate love to. There’s hot sex, and then there’s hot sex.

Me after burning my dick off after fucking a volcano

WitchDR said:

I’m all for continuity with the PT and OT.

I don’t know why they decided to edit the OT to fit with the PT, instead of writing a prequel trilogy that fits in with the OT.

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is alright. It’s the worst of the four, but it’s not that bad.

Mocata said:

His entire class of pupils are murdered and he doesn’t really seem that shocked. He just heads over to Palpy for a few extra force power moves before quitting. He might has well have said “failed to do enough flips to beat him I have”.

100%. “Failed I have”, in the context of the movie, is not some grander statement on his role in the Jedi, he’s literally just talking about how he lost the dance-off with Ian McDiarmid.

This interpretation of Yoda’s character arc, it’s cool and all, but it’s not at all present in the prequels.

Here are some of the very, very broad strokes of galactic history. It’s very sparse, so think of this more as a bunch of eras for writing more specific stories in rather than actual galactic history. Not to mention, there’s plenty of gaps.

~100,000 BBY - The First Beings leave their home planet, the identity of which is lost to time. They begin to colonize the galaxy through conventional space travel. Because conventional space travel is so slow, each star system is basically entirely isolated, and so the First Beings evolve into the many millions of beings of the galaxy.

~30,000 BBY - Very early Force users learn to create portals between star systems. Most star systems are not accessible through portals, and the ones that are only link to a small handful of other star systems, but this is enough to create a few galaxy-spanning portal webs, allowing for the first galaxy-spanning Empires and the beginning of Galactic Civilization. Early rulers of these galaxy-spanning Empires are despotic Kings trained in the Dark Side of the Force.

~25,000 BBY - Slave Rebellions in one of the web Empires, assisted by the first Jedi, begin winning victories. Eventually they take full control, founding the Galactic Republic. It’ll exist in many different forms, but won’t fall for over a thousand generations. The Jedi Oath is written.

~4,000 BBY - Hyperspace travel is invented, opening up the entire galaxy to civilization. This embroils the Republic in two conflicts: One with the Mandalorians, who had their own web Empire, and one with a new group called the Sith, a xenophobic group of Dark Side Force Users who want to eradicate the galaxy of the alien species newly introduced to galactic civilization. The Republic ends up defeating the two of them, casting them to hide in the dark shadows of the galaxy.

~1,000 BBY - The galaxy experiences centuries of peace and prosperity after rebuilding from some conflict.

100~20 BBY - The galaxy undergoes a cultural revolution, turning away from the spiritual, and toward the material. Tons of new technologies are invented, but also horrifying weapons of war. The Jedi’s numbers dwindle over decades until Darth Vader finally finishes them off, but in this time, the old foe of both the Mandalorians and the Sith return. The Republic finally falls around 30~20 BBY, and the Galactic Empire rises from its ashes.

4 ABY - The Emperor dies. Who knows what happens next?

Because there’s been a bit of a reset, I’m leaving out some of the eras/events that might not be brought back. Unfortunately, the Viral Wars, something I thought was really cool, is probably not gonna stay. Alas.

Knight of Kalee said:

Qui-Gon didn’t actually leave, though. He just treaded the fine line between following the Code and listening to the actual will of the Force.

Oops my bad lol

Well technically he leaves at the end of TPM

G&G-Fan said:

Remember when Yoda said “Wars not make one great” in Empire Strikes Back? He learned that from the Clone Wars.

It’s only through the teachings of Qui-Gon, who became his master after Revenge of the Sith and was basically the perfect Jedi, even if nobody could see it, was Yoda able to grow into the character he is in Empire Strikes Back.

I’d find this a lot more compelling if this was an actual plot thread in the prequels, instead of something people just inferred from a bunch of EU media.

When Yoda says this in Empire, it’s not hard to imagine he’s saying this from firsthand experience. But in the prequels, that’s really not what’s portrayed. Yoda has no character arc where he learns the horrors of war. If it’s true that he learned this through Qui-Gon, you gotta remember that this is entirely off-screen, after the credits roll in Episode 3.

According to the New EU, there’s this weird line of Jedi that all realized the Jedi Order was super bad. Most of them end up leaving, through good or bad circumstances. A lot of the fandom is of the opinion that these guys are super based and the reason they’re the most important Jedi is because they recognized the Jedi were super evil and stuff. Which is really weird if you think about that idea even in the context of the PT, let alone the OT.

Yoda > Dooku > Qui-Gon > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Ahsoka, although maybe Yoda doesn’t count since he doesn’t fit as well. So Dooku > Qui-Gon > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Ahsoka?

The only ones who didn’t leave were Yoda and Obi-Wan, but even Obi-Wan was super critical of the Jedi according to the New EU.

I’m probably not expressing this idea very well

Anakin showing up in TLJ would have overcomplicated everything. You’d have to touch on Anakin and Luke’s obviously rocky and very complicated relationship, and at least address why Anakin is talking to Luke and not Kylo (not a hard question to answer but it’s still one you’d have to address). Using Yoda is simple and straightforward for the purpose of the scene.

I already answered this a few years ago but I change my answer to “So love has blinded you”

thebluefrog said:

OutboundFlight said:

So we have a Death Star 3. Let’s do something interesting with that.

What if instead of just destroying the Hosnian system, Starkiller destroys dozens of planets in one launch? This would explain how the Republic collapsed – they had ships at bases across the galaxy, but Starkiller was able to destroy all of them in a single mass launch.

Starkiller should’ve…literally killed a star. Wiping out all planets in the system.

Kind of strange no one at Disney saw that.

Well, it does. I bet you could probably easily repurpose footage of it killing stars and just… leave it at that. No planet destroying.

Double basement

Our Queen