SparkySywer

JakeRyan17 said:

My point is more that brainwashing is brainwashing. My mom didn’t used to be racist or homophobic, now she is. We can make broad strokes about why she deserves to be murdered more than her child she’s raising in that worldview, but to me it just kinda seems moot. We can call her stupid, or blame her for not understanding trickle-down farces… but at the end of the day she was brainwashed, but she’d deny being brainwashed.

If we’re against killing brainwashed people, then stunners are the way to go. Trying to parse out which brainwashed people deserve to die and which we feel bad about is what feels antipathetic to me.

Is your mother murdering civilians?

My own personal opinion, I’m really not a super fan of all the kidnapping, or even recruiting children that there is in Star Wars nowadays. Even when the villains (the First Order) do it, it’s still kind of really uncomfortable that this is just a fact of the Star Wars universe now.

CourtlyHades296 said:

rotoscoped onto Anakin’s body in jonh’s ghost scene.

The circle is now complete. Hayden was rotoscoped onto Shaw’s body in RotJ, now Shaw will be rotoscoped onto Hayden’s body in TRoS.

It brings you to the first comment you haven’t read yet, or if you’ve read every comment, to the beginning of the thread.

They should absolutely add some options there, though.

I don’t wanna moan to hard about TRoS tonight, but TRoS’s end product really isn’t at all reflective of the ideas they had going into production, let alone pre-production, let alone the production during TFA. Major plot points, like Palpatine even being in the movie, weren’t there until January 2019, and it’s likely that Rey Palpatine wasn’t even a thing until late summer 2019. Everything was shifting around that much that ideas that old (4+ years old, absolutely ancient) are unlikely to have made it to the finished product of TRoS.

If JJ had anything like Rey being OP and it being because of her bloodline, that’s a hell of a lucky idea to survive the culling that far.

NeverarGreat said:

the creator of that movie made a sequel to it where he acknowledges that it is unusual and explains it by tying her by blood to the most powerful Force user in the galaxy.

I really don’t think they thought that hard about it. I think they just kind of thought “Fuck it, bring Palpatine back” in the eleventh hour and then thought “Fuck it, make Rey a Palpatine, it’ll be a mind = blown moment or something.” I never took it to have any meta meaning like that, nor did I ever take it to be any sort of explanation of Rey being powerful. I didn’t realize anyone took it that way until hopping onto the cybertubes.

I mean, Kylo does say “You have his power”, but I always took it to be just your average sub-par Star Wars line.

JakeRyan17 said:

But lightsabers have never been described or depicted as light.

/s

Speaking of which, we’ve already got, like, 5 of the last 6 movies ending with Binary Sunset? Let’s just commit to it.

I feel like you guys are making up reasons to call Rey a Mary Sue. There’s really not much suggesting either way whether or not Wookiee language is easy or hard to learn, so I’d personally take Rey picking it up as evidence that it’s easy. Not as evidence that it’s hard and that she’s OP.

jarbear said:

Lol I think people are making misconceptions of what a Mary Sue and Gary Sue are and trying to broaden it’s meaning by tying it with Power/Ability, knowledge/knowhow, etc.

Yeah. Mary Sues and Gary Stus aren’t bad characters just because they’re super OP or whatever, but because they’re extreme self flattery (or flattery of another group, but it’s usually self flattery) with the subtlety of a jackhammer.

The original fanfic where the name Mary Sue comes from was a (parody of a) self-insert fanfic where the author’s self-insert was super talented and outperformed all the Star Trek characters because she was so cool and awesome, and they all instantly loved and respected her instantly for no other reason than because the author was (parodying) flattering herself.

The first people to accuse Rey of being a Mary Sue back in 2015 were more in line with this, but in a much less palatable way if you know what I mean.

I really don’t think Rey’s OP, though. Compared to Anakin and Luke, she’s pretty much on par for most things, albeit she starts a little bit further along with her abilities in the Force than Luke does. But for Luke, he doesn’t even believe it exists in ANH until the middle of the movie, doesn’t put any faith in it until the end of ANH, and doesn’t put complete faith in it until the very end of ESB. Versus Rey, who kinda starts off pretty close to where Luke was in ESB. She’s not a faster learner or naturally more OP than Luke, she just starts her movie further along than he started his. Beyond that, I’d absolutely say he’s a slower learner than him.

With Rey’s other abilities, TFA gives pretty solid reasons for them if you actually pay attention to the movie. She’s a good pilot because she has years of experience. She can fight using a lightsaber because she has years of experience with a similar weapon, and even then she’s not in a fair fight, it’s heavily stacked against Kylo.

I wonder what might be able to be done in an edit of TRoS that makes the trilogy more cohesive without sacrificing TLJ. Most edits of the ST try to reconcile TLJ to TRoS, but that’s kind of a shame. Like TLJ or not, it’s the one that actually has an artistic idea behind it. Especially compared to TRoS.

The prequels were a hundred thousand times more unpopular than the sequels, and Lucasfilm had the means and opportunity to decanonize them from 2012-2014 and be met by happy fans, but they didn’t. They’re not going to retcon or rewrite the sequels.

I really hope not. I was kind of sick of the Filoni OCs inexplicably showing up this season, but at least Ahsoka and Bo-Katan were decent characters in TCW. Genuinely, unironically Ezra is the worst Star Wars character. At least Jar Jar isn’t really that relevant to the story, and Anakin Skywalker is kind of made better in TCW.

NeverarGreat said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

NeverarGreat said:

act on instinct said:

Mocata said:

Yeah but it’s less like the reaction to mass murder and more like a case of indigestion.

Could say the same or worse about Leia to her home planet. It’s not Rabbit Hole.

To be fair, we never saw her reaction to its actual destruction, only getting back to her hours later.

Nevertheless, this is a failure of SW '77.

Or just a deliberate creative decision. Leia is still technically a supporting character to Luke, so it makes sense to merely imply some character moments. After all, they shot a reaction for her planet’s destruction but chose to cut it, probably to keep the focus on Luke.

People here are right about Lucas struggling with emotional storytelling, but this is true too. In ANH, Leia’s pretty much just a supporting character, and gets far less development and screentime than Luke and Han, and even Obi-Wan. Not showing her reaction seems weird in retrospect, now that Empire and Jedi have made her as important of a character as Luke, but she’s not as big of a character in ANH. Dwelling on her reaction seems sort of weird to me.

Mocata said:

G&G-Fan said:
That’s another thing that a lot of people miss. When he says “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor” that obviously means he faced him before. Obviously he was witness to the Emperor’s power first hand. That actually becomes a plot hole for anyone who removes that duel from the movie, because now how else would he know the Emperor’s power? It fits into the original trilogy perfectly.

I always took the line to mean that Anakin tried to beat the Emperor somehow and failed, thus becoming his thrall. How exactly would require some good writing. Instead Anakin was just dumb and fell for the most basic emotional trickery, then allowed Mace Windu die. And Yoda just knew all of Palpatine’s powers ahead of time, since he saw them from Dooku and wasn’t even surprised by them. They’re now just basic evil powers anyone can learn.

What’s even crazier is that Palpatine straight up tells him that he doesn’t actually know how to save people from death and Anakin still goes along with everything.

Like, it’s probably not so easy for him to just kinda leave Palpatine, but his entire motive for him turning to the dark side, he is literally told is a lie before he even becomes Darth Vader.

Maybe his tinnitus was acting up after so many explosions in the Clone Wars and he didn’t hear him. Still though, what a dumbass.

G&G-Fan said:

Or it’s because of what I explained above? Because Dooku knew he had no chance against Yoda in terms of the Force so he changed the fight but was too arrogant to admit it, a very Sith trait and a general trait of Dooku’s character (always portraying himself as super confident)?

Why does Yoda go along with it?

Plus, boiling down the Force to just a superpower to use to fight doesn’t help the prequels’ case when it comes to their treatment of the Force.

NeverarGreat said:

So when Yoda and Dooku pulled out their swords to go at it, this implied that swords still held some importance as to the winner of the fight.

Dooku outright says “It is obvious that this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.” At the risk of being really hyperbolic… can you get any more antithetical to the core concepts of Star Wars itself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYeDDIT2n5w

Finn in TFA: “Hosnian Prime! The entire planet is one big city.”

StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t see why people are so disappointed that the prequels didn’t include some mind-blowing revelations that would change the way we looked at the OT. Adding needless complications to a prequel of an already existing franchise tends to feel contrived (case in point: Star Trek Discovery). Even then, they already introduced some ideas people weren’t expecting, most importantly the clones being the good guys and the Republic falling from within.

I don’t think anyone’s disappointed by it. At least to my knowledge. Personally, if there really was some trick about Palpatine not actually being the Emperor or not actually being the big evil guy in control, I think it would’ve been really awful.

Sorry, I just gathered from the tone of your previous post that you were disappointed something like that didn’t happen. Referencing the ESB twist as an example of how great Star Wars plot twists can be, then seeming bored with how it ended up being played straight. I understand that I could have misinterpreted though.

I’m sorry

Was this meant to be condescending? If so, I should be the one who’s sorry. I didn’t mean to put you down in any way. But then again, maybe I’m just misinterpreting again.

No I was genuinely apologizing

StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t see why people are so disappointed that the prequels didn’t include some mind-blowing revelations that would change the way we looked at the OT. Adding needless complications to a prequel of an already existing franchise tends to feel contrived (case in point: Star Trek Discovery). Even then, they already introduced some ideas people weren’t expecting, most importantly the clones being the good guys and the Republic falling from within.

I don’t think anyone’s disappointed by it. At least to my knowledge. Personally, if there really was some trick about Palpatine not actually being the Emperor or not actually being the big evil guy in control, I think it would’ve been really awful.

Sorry, I just gathered from the tone of your previous post that you were disappointed something like that didn’t happen. Referencing the ESB twist as an example of how great Star Wars plot twists can be, then seeming bored with how it ended up being played straight. I understand that I could have misinterpreted though.

I’m sorry

Reddit 🤮

The lack of released TRoS deleted scenes gives this project a big hurdle to have to deal with.

OutboundFlight said:

I just hope this doesn’t become yet another “promise it’s from the bad guys perspective” only to become a redemption story 3 episodes in. Let’s get a full-blown evil Sith - no redemptions!

Bad guys turning good has become so overdone at this point.

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t see why people are so disappointed that the prequels didn’t include some mind-blowing revelations that would change the way we looked at the OT. Adding needless complications to a prequel of an already existing franchise tends to feel contrived (case in point: Star Trek Discovery). Even then, they already introduced some ideas people weren’t expecting, most importantly the clones being the good guys and the Republic falling from within.

I don’t think anyone’s disappointed by it. At least to my knowledge. Personally, if there really was some trick about Palpatine not actually being the Emperor or not actually being the big evil guy in control, I think it would’ve been really awful.

G&G-Fan said:

SparkySywer said:
In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

HAHAHAHAHAHA (this isn’t even hyperbole I actually laughed so hard upon seeing this)

This proves you didn’t actually watch the movies. Yoda says to not underestimate the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Not Empire Strikes Back. Force lightning is in Return of the Jedi.

I would think people on a forum called ORIGINALTRILOGY.COM would actually know jack and shit about the original trilogy.

SparkySywer said:

Watch the movies, because you clearly haven’t. I literally just provided examples for you completely ignored them. And another purist due literally AGREED WITH ME.

Also regarding Bede’s comments, what he suggested is another valid way to incorporate Yoda in the prequels, so I can’t really say you’re wrong, but I like what they actually did. I also don’t find the duels in AOTC and ROTS fake, I think they’re great, especially the ones in ROTS. Shadiversity (a guy who actually knows sword fighting) even did a video analyzing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel move-by-move and he thinks it’s fantastic and one of the best choregraphed duels in films (he also analyzed the Last Jedi duel and found it to be absolutely horrible). But again, whether something looks fake to you is rather subjective so I can’t really say you’re wrong.

I’ve watched the whole saga multiple times and I’ve never heard of “Death Vader”. Must be in the alternate universe versions of the movies you watched, because clearly we haven’t been watching the same ones.

Also how is the Tragedy of Darth Vader story not coherent? He becomes a Jedi (rises), becomes evil in the third movie, is evil for the next two movies and the greater part of the sixth one, and then redeems himself at the end of said sixth one. “Not being coherent” would be if Vader was a good guy in ESB.

Lmao, Yoda says similar things in both RotJ and Empire. My bad. CTRL+F’ing on the RotJ and ESB scripts didn’t help me today

Looks like another feminist wrecked by hero prequel fan G&G

G&G-Fan said:

It’s established in Revenge of the Sith that he became Qui-Gon’s apprentice, it doesn’t take much to realize that the change in his character between the prequels and the originals was because his perspective changed during his exile.

So… off-screen and not actually a thing in the prequels?

There’s not even any EU stuff that covers what Yoda did between ROTS and ESB. Guess who also had character development between films? Luke, between ESB and ROTJ. He grew from rash and impatient to collected and wise. But I guess that wasn’t actually in the movies.

There’s EU stuff that covers absolutely everything. The Old EU had a full backstory for the guy running around with an ice cream maker in Empire, the New EU has a full backstory for the guy who gets choked out by Vader in ANH.

He didn’t say “Don’t underestimate the Emperor’s ability to manipulate people”, he said “The powers of the Emperor.”

In the actual context of the scene that’s from, Yoda and Obi-Wan are talking about how Anakin fell to the dark side because he was unprepared and the Emperor manipulated him, and now Luke’s leaving Dagobah, with his training unfinished, to go face Vader. Especially since the Emperor wants Luke and his abilities, they’re worried that the path he’s going down will lead him to the same fate as Anakin.

I really don’t think it’s about the crazy Marvel superpowers the Emperor has, because, well, for one, Force Lightning isn’t in ESB, and for two, Luke never fights the Emperor in the entire trilogy.

Also the force in the prequels isn’t just superpowers and fights.

I think both strategies for writing a prequel are valid. Writing them with an Episodic Order in mind is valid, especially since Star Wars has these episode numbers which at least beg the question on why they are what they are. Writing them with a Release Order in mind is valid, because, well, they were released in that order. Giving out information and developing the story in that order makes sense because the newer stuff builds on the older stuff like every other story.

The Tragedy of Darth Vader stuff is kind of the worst of both worlds, though. You get the OT story spoiled like a Release Order would, but it’s not a coherent enough story to justify the Episodic Order mindset. The two trilogies might as well be entirely atomized stories.

G&G-Fan said:

Mocata said:

Ahh but there’s the real problem, and keeping all of the ESB twists intact would require far more creativity.

Or maybe because it would contradict more lines from the original trilogy? Like Yoda knowing who Luke’s father was enough to say “Powerful Jedi was he” and “Much anger in him… like his father”.

He can know Anakin without having been in the Jedi Order. Not to mention, Yoda says that he’d been watching Luke all his life, despite being on Dagobah for 19 years. Maybe Yoda just knows this shit.

I don’t necessarily think Yoda being outside the (main?) Jedi Order is the only or even best way to go. But it would’ve made for a much better characterization than… whatever the hell you could call the Yoda we got.

How else would he know to “Not underestimate the powers of the Emperor”?

The Emperor’s clearly powerful and got to Anakin decades ago. Him getting to Luke is a huge risk. Plus, Yoda could have had experience with the Emperor without any of the changes to his character the prequels brought.

And how else would he learn “Wars not make one great” without having experienced that first hand.

Well, just knowledge of history, although that would be really boring. Really, there’s nothing wrong with him having first hand knowledge of the horrors of war, but it needs to have one of two things:

-An actual character arc of him learning the horrors of war, in the actual movies, and not from some EU writer trying to rehabilitate the prequels

-Or, push it back to before the prequels if you don’t want to deal with it, or if you want to have Yoda be a force for pacifism in the story.

Having him be an active, enthusiastic general and then inexplicably become a huge pacifist off-screen between movies, doesn’t make for a compelling story.

That’s another thing that a lot of people miss. When he says “Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor” that obviously means he faced him before. Obviously he was witness to the Emperor’s power first hand. That actually becomes a plot hole for anyone who removes that duel from the movie, because now how else would he know the Emperor’s power? It fits into the original trilogy perfectly.

“Powers of the Emperor” doesn’t necessarily mean his skill at lightsaber fighting. Hell, the prequels recontextualizing everything about the Force and a Jedi’s power to be just Dragonball Z fights is the worst thing about them.

I’m not a super fan of conservative prequel rewrites, but Belated Media’s Episode III rewrite has a scene that deals with this plot point a hundred thousand times better, here, and also shows Palpatine’s rise to power in a more compelling way.

Belated Media’s really only putting the bare minimum in, in my opinion, but it’s leagues better than the story the prequels gave us. Because, well, these ideas are actually there in the story itself.