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The way the scene’s shot and the way Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley give their performances, it makes it clear that he’s just getting her to admit what she already knew was true. He may (may) be manipulating her, but he’s not manipulating the truth.
Either way, if he was manipulating her here, why not go with the Palpatine manipulation right off the bat? Pull the same stuff he says in TRoS instead of waiting a year? What happens when Rey finds out she’s not a nobody? Because that’s definitely going to eventually happen.
The word Sith existed before the prequels, but what they were and what it meant that Vader (and only Vader, not Palpatine) was one of them was undecided. Or hell, while that deleted scene explicitly says Vader is a Sith, that’s something Legends writers tried to go back on (He was a Lord of the Sith, maybe that meant the Sith were a group of people he ruled over, despite not being one of them?)
The way TLJ is written, the whole “your parents were nobody” was all Kylo trying to turn her. So it being the unvarnished truth doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Rey’s the one who says it though, not Kylo.
Very cool! I’ll probably read this at work tomorrow.
I personally think most of the issues people point to are fairly surface-level stuff that doesn’t really damage the movie as a whole. A second Death Star makes sense in-universe.
Return of the Jedi is a great movie, but I kind of think this is a stretch. The last one didn’t work, why would a second one with essentially no changes work this time? Palpatine gets a surprise attack on the Rebels I guess, but he still dies, they still lose the Sanctuary Moon, and the loss on Endor doomed the Empire.
5% as in a tenth of the well intentioned people who end up getting it wrong, or 5% as in 5% of the final total?
Swap the 3rd quarter of ROTS with the first and call it episode IX. Swap the first quarter of TROS with the 3rd and call it episode III.
What?
Just think about it for a sec.
This is one of those top tier posts that I didn’t get until about eight hours later when it idly crossed my mind in the middle of the night.
I was about to say the exact same thing. I thought it was just nonsense and was okay with that before reading a second time. Dom’s mind truly expands further than my feeble brain could ever conceive.
But isn’t it more or less the same with the NuEU?
If the Old EU is 50% well intentioned writers who just don’t get it, 40% malicious writers, and 10% great writers, the New EU is the same but with the malicious writers removed, at least IMO. Quick math says that’s 83% well intentioned writers and 16% good additions.
I’m looking forward to your script. I’m more interested in this than Bad Batch, lol.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to show Luke’s lightsaber retracting in the final Academy flashback. To make the point of the scene more clear and dispel the misreading of the movie of Luke trying to kill Ben for having a bad dream. He’d have to re-ignite it when Ben attacks him, too, of course.
Had a go at making it. It’s a little rough and I think someone who’s more skilled (and also has access to better toys) than me might be able to do better. I just kinda cut out a shot to avoid the problem of the glow. It makes the continuity a little weird but it’s not so bad.
I painted out the green reflection in Kylo’s eyes but not from Luke’s eyes. To be honest, it’s because I didn’t notice you could really see it in Luke’s eyes that late in the shot until after I uploaded the youtube video and I didn’t take it down because I can’t guarantee I’ll have the same fixation on this when I got home from work tomorrow to fix it and reupload lol. Doing it would probably sell the retraction more, though.
I used EBSynth because painting out the reflection for 78 frames would be tedious, and I feel like there was a bit of a drop in quality because of that? But it’s probably no longer even visible thanks to youtube compression. Regardless, I’d probably do them all manually before ever putting them in a finished fanedit.
Speaking of which, I never noticed it before, but the sound in this scene is great.
I hope this is some kind of misdirect, or he’s like, just taking some of Luke’s genes to get the Midichlorians for his strandcasts or whatever. The new canon mostly does a decent job of not plucking the sillier elements of Legends. Doesn’t Mando, which is set years after this comic, suggest that the cloning still hasn’t achieved Force sensitivity - that’s why Herzog wanted Grogu so badly, right?
Edit: irrelevant note - does anyone have any idea of how to more clearly communicate that Rey deflecting the lightning back at Sheev is also killing her? In the movie she just randomly collapses, and I think it’d land a lot better if it was made clear that she was sustaining injuries while fighting him. It’d also make her come across as braver to keep pushing despite being hurt, it’d make Sheev continuing to zap her seem mildly less foolish if he was actually doing some damage.
EBSynth might be able to put burns on her, but I’m not very familiar with it
Maybe in another sequel trilogy I could agree with him. Rey Palpatine isn’t bad in and of itself. But when he’s essentially resetting Rey’s character to TFA and repeating the same plot points from Episode 8, it doesn’t work.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to show Luke’s lightsaber retracting in the final Academy flashback. To make the point of the scene more clear and dispel the misreading of the movie of Luke trying to kill Ben for having a bad dream. He’d have to re-ignite it when Ben attacks him, too, of course.
Luke clearly changes his mind about killing Ben at the last minute. And it needed to be on so Ben would realize, “Oh shit, Luke found out that I’ve turned to the dark side and he was gonna stop me!”
Well, Jedi can sort of read minds. It does muddy Kylo Ren a little in that scene, but I think clarifying what’s going on with Luke is worth it. Because misreading the movie to thinking that Luke was killing Ben for having a bad dream is a bigger deal than not immediately getting how Ben knows what’s going on.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to show Luke’s lightsaber retracting in the final Academy flashback. To make the point of the scene more clear and dispel the misreading of the movie of Luke trying to kill Ben for having a bad dream. He’d have to re-ignite it when Ben attacks him, too, of course.
This issue with this would be removing the green glow on Ben. Otherwise this is an excellent idea.
This might be tedious but it’s definitely doable.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to show Luke’s lightsaber retracting in the final Academy flashback. To make the point of the scene more clear and dispel the misreading of the movie of Luke trying to kill Ben for having a bad dream. He’d have to re-ignite it when Ben attacks him, too, of course.
Well, yeah, obviously.
I’d probably agree that RotJ is the weakest of the OT, but imagine Star Wars without Vader’s redemption. It’s still a great movie.
For that same reason you could argue that the Darth Sidious line doesn’t count either. If you never saw the prequels, you would just assume that was just new information. Maybe the Clone Army too, which honestly feels like it shouldn’t count even normally, since there being Cloned Armies is a natural conclusion of there being Clone Wars.
There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse.
So this guy’s fascinated enough by the fall of the Roman Republic to base a trilogy off of it, but not enough to know that Caesar actually did come at the head of a conquering army? The Senate gave him dictatorial powers after he conquered Rome, and it was an attempt to limit his power, not to give him power.
I don’t recall George ever saying the prequels were a Roman biopic. It’s possible to take some ideas and inspiration from an event without directly mirroring it.
George Lucas: “All democracies turn into dictatorships – but not by coup. The people give their democracy to a dictator, whether it’s Julius Caesar or Napoleon or Adolf Hitler. Ultimately, the general population goes along with the idea…”
This is the quote I’m referring to.
Caesar actually did take power through a coup (which is why this quote is so ironic), and the general population of Germany never supported Hitler during his rise to power, he was appointed by the previous Chancellor. The highest he ever got in the popular vote was 33%.
I don’t know much about Napoleon’s rise to power to be honest, but I doubt he fits Lucas’s idea of history either. Because he’d be, like, the one exception. This sort of misanthropic view of authoritarianism is ahistorical and just inaccurate.
I remember touching on this point myself before, maybe in the Ahsoka Tano thread. I think it is a big problem that this Jedi doctrine of no attachments allowed (which is really quite inhuman, and a mistaken decision only made out of fear, I think) has been repeatedly ‘proved’ in Star Wars content.
This is why, for better or worse, I do believe the prequel-era Jedi being bad is an EU invention. Everything in the movies, plus Mando, seems to vindicate them on these kinds of issues. If the Jedi being wrong was ever Lucas’s intention, it’s so muddied that it doesn’t really matter what his intention was.
The only real thing they aren’t later justified for is when Yoda, Mace Windu, and Obi-Wan call the Jedi arrogant, but they throw that word around a lot in the prequels without ever actually showing us arrogance. It’s so meaningless in the story the prequels end up telling that I kinda tune it out, which is why I forgot about it until rereading this thread. It just sounds like standard dumb prequel dialog.
It may be evidence that the story the prequels were trying to tell was about how the Jedi were bad/corrupt/flawed/whatever, but with how often the Jedi’s behavior is justified, I’d chock this up to the prequels being the prequels.
It’s funny how the characters portrayed as a child abducting, brainwashing, dispassionate, celibate cult are the heroes!
Being honest at least this makes Luke’s beliefs in TLJ feel much more poignant.
I feel like it does quite the opposite. The stuff the prequel-era Jedi do is pretty despicable. Child trafficking, unjust wars, terrorizing the galaxy, etc. With the implications of the prequels, and prequel-era EU content in mind with TLJ, it feels like musing on whether or not the Nazi Party had to end.
Ignoring all that makes TLJ more poignant. The problems with the Jedi Luke specifically mentions in TLJ are a lot more subtle and focused. “The Jedi were too possessive of the Force, which caused their downfall and the suffering during the Empire” vs “The Jedi kidnapped children and committed war crimes and other acts of violent atrocity”.
It’s also why, if the prequels were really going for a deconstruction of the Jedi Order, it didn’t really work. But I really don’t think they did, I think the “The Jedi were bad, actually” is more of an EU concept than something actually supported by the prequels.
The prequels feel like they try to justify the weird behavior of the Jedi/Republic. Anakin doesn’t actually turn to the dark side because the Jedi failed to help him because of their weird celibacy rules. In the prequels, Anakin turns to the dark side because he wasn’t celibate. The celibacy rules were there for a reason. The Republic isn’t actually a corrupt, non-functioning state, the prequels trace pretty much any problem with the Republic back to Palpatine. None of its problems are inherent in the prequels. The Jedi train toddlers for a reason, if you start as a Jedi too old, bad things happen. Kidnapping children is just an implication you get from reading between the lines.
This is why I don’t think you miss much from cutting this stuff out of the prequels. They weren’t actually part of any deep storyline until the EU recontextualized them to be. The celibacy rule is just there to make Anakin and Padme’s romance a forbidden one, for example. Better to cut this kind of stuff out to avoid the problems they bring.
But that’s getting a little off-track, since this is the OT edits to fit the PT and ST thread, not the PT and ST edits to fit the OT thread.
There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse.
There’s some quote by Lucas comparing the fall of the Republic to the fall of the Roman Republic (comparing Palpatine to Caesar), and he comments that dictators don’t come to power at the head of a conquering army, but by turning institutions in on themselves.
So this guy’s fascinated enough by the fall of the Roman Republic to base a trilogy off of it, but not enough to know that Caesar actually did come at the head of a conquering army? The Senate gave him dictatorial powers after he conquered Rome, and it was an attempt to limit his power, not to give him power.
Acolyte. Boba Fett sounds cool, but I never needed it. Same with Obi-Wan. Mando’s on a bit of a soft ending, mostly everything they’ve been up to in the show has been concluded. I have absolutely no interest in Bad Batch or Andor, and the opposite of interest in the Ahsoka show. Don’t know enough about the Lando show to say anything.
Acolyte could be something fully creative and new and a full blank slate for Star Wars.
Probably a mix of both, but I’d still lean toward it being an EU thing. The prequels themselves kind of portray the Jedi as being right for all their dumbass rules and ideas.
Dooku wasn’t the good guy Sith who had an actually genuine criticism of the Jedi and Republic, you’re right in saying it’s just standard bad guy talk.
Anakin’s deviation from the Jedi code is portrayed as him being wrong.