Sign In

SparkySywer

User Group
Members
Join date
14-Nov-2016
Last activity
23-Apr-2021
Posts
971

Post History

Post
#1424976
Topic
Direct references to the PT that were made in Disney’s ST
Time

For that same reason you could argue that the Darth Sidious line doesn’t count either. If you never saw the prequels, you would just assume that was just new information. Maybe the Clone Army too, which honestly feels like it shouldn’t count even normally, since there being Cloned Armies is a natural conclusion of there being Clone Wars.

Post
#1424969
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

Ryan-SWI said:

SparkySywer said:

act on instinct said:

There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse.

So this guy’s fascinated enough by the fall of the Roman Republic to base a trilogy off of it, but not enough to know that Caesar actually did come at the head of a conquering army? The Senate gave him dictatorial powers after he conquered Rome, and it was an attempt to limit his power, not to give him power.

I don’t recall George ever saying the prequels were a Roman biopic. It’s possible to take some ideas and inspiration from an event without directly mirroring it.

George Lucas: “All democracies turn into dictatorships – but not by coup. The people give their democracy to a dictator, whether it’s Julius Caesar or Napoleon or Adolf Hitler. Ultimately, the general population goes along with the idea…”

This is the quote I’m referring to.

Caesar actually did take power through a coup (which is why this quote is so ironic), and the general population of Germany never supported Hitler during his rise to power, he was appointed by the previous Chancellor. The highest he ever got in the popular vote was 33%.

I don’t know much about Napoleon’s rise to power to be honest, but I doubt he fits Lucas’s idea of history either. Because he’d be, like, the one exception. This sort of misanthropic view of authoritarianism is ahistorical and just inaccurate.

jedi_bendu said:

I remember touching on this point myself before, maybe in the Ahsoka Tano thread. I think it is a big problem that this Jedi doctrine of no attachments allowed (which is really quite inhuman, and a mistaken decision only made out of fear, I think) has been repeatedly ‘proved’ in Star Wars content.

This is why, for better or worse, I do believe the prequel-era Jedi being bad is an EU invention. Everything in the movies, plus Mando, seems to vindicate them on these kinds of issues. If the Jedi being wrong was ever Lucas’s intention, it’s so muddied that it doesn’t really matter what his intention was.

The only real thing they aren’t later justified for is when Yoda, Mace Windu, and Obi-Wan call the Jedi arrogant, but they throw that word around a lot in the prequels without ever actually showing us arrogance. It’s so meaningless in the story the prequels end up telling that I kinda tune it out, which is why I forgot about it until rereading this thread. It just sounds like standard dumb prequel dialog.

It may be evidence that the story the prequels were trying to tell was about how the Jedi were bad/corrupt/flawed/whatever, but with how often the Jedi’s behavior is justified, I’d chock this up to the prequels being the prequels.

Post
#1424641
Topic
Idea: OT Edits to Fit the PT and/or the Larger Saga (A Resource Thread, Hopefully)
Time

Knight of Kalee said:

Chase Adams said:

It’s funny how the characters portrayed as a child abducting, brainwashing, dispassionate, celibate cult are the heroes!

Being honest at least this makes Luke’s beliefs in TLJ feel much more poignant.

I feel like it does quite the opposite. The stuff the prequel-era Jedi do is pretty despicable. Child trafficking, unjust wars, terrorizing the galaxy, etc. With the implications of the prequels, and prequel-era EU content in mind with TLJ, it feels like musing on whether or not the Nazi Party had to end.

Ignoring all that makes TLJ more poignant. The problems with the Jedi Luke specifically mentions in TLJ are a lot more subtle and focused. “The Jedi were too possessive of the Force, which caused their downfall and the suffering during the Empire” vs “The Jedi kidnapped children and committed war crimes and other acts of violent atrocity”.

It’s also why, if the prequels were really going for a deconstruction of the Jedi Order, it didn’t really work. But I really don’t think they did, I think the “The Jedi were bad, actually” is more of an EU concept than something actually supported by the prequels.

The prequels feel like they try to justify the weird behavior of the Jedi/Republic. Anakin doesn’t actually turn to the dark side because the Jedi failed to help him because of their weird celibacy rules. In the prequels, Anakin turns to the dark side because he wasn’t celibate. The celibacy rules were there for a reason. The Republic isn’t actually a corrupt, non-functioning state, the prequels trace pretty much any problem with the Republic back to Palpatine. None of its problems are inherent in the prequels. The Jedi train toddlers for a reason, if you start as a Jedi too old, bad things happen. Kidnapping children is just an implication you get from reading between the lines.

This is why I don’t think you miss much from cutting this stuff out of the prequels. They weren’t actually part of any deep storyline until the EU recontextualized them to be. The celibacy rule is just there to make Anakin and Padme’s romance a forbidden one, for example. Better to cut this kind of stuff out to avoid the problems they bring.

But that’s getting a little off-track, since this is the OT edits to fit the PT and ST thread, not the PT and ST edits to fit the OT thread.

Post
#1424638
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

act on instinct said:

There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse.

There’s some quote by Lucas comparing the fall of the Republic to the fall of the Roman Republic (comparing Palpatine to Caesar), and he comments that dictators don’t come to power at the head of a conquering army, but by turning institutions in on themselves.

So this guy’s fascinated enough by the fall of the Roman Republic to base a trilogy off of it, but not enough to know that Caesar actually did come at the head of a conquering army? The Senate gave him dictatorial powers after he conquered Rome, and it was an attempt to limit his power, not to give him power.

Post
#1424402
Topic
If you can only have one of these upcoming series... which would it be, and why?
Time

Acolyte. Boba Fett sounds cool, but I never needed it. Same with Obi-Wan. Mando’s on a bit of a soft ending, mostly everything they’ve been up to in the show has been concluded. I have absolutely no interest in Bad Batch or Andor, and the opposite of interest in the Ahsoka show. Don’t know enough about the Lando show to say anything.

Acolyte could be something fully creative and new and a full blank slate for Star Wars.

Post
#1424401
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

Probably a mix of both, but I’d still lean toward it being an EU thing. The prequels themselves kind of portray the Jedi as being right for all their dumbass rules and ideas.

Dooku wasn’t the good guy Sith who had an actually genuine criticism of the Jedi and Republic, you’re right in saying it’s just standard bad guy talk.

Anakin’s deviation from the Jedi code is portrayed as him being wrong.

Post
#1424062
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

In TFA and TLJ, Rey focused heavily on her parents, they were the ones who conceived her, birthed her and abandoned her on the hell that is Jakku. She hoped there has to be some reason as to why her parents abandoned her, like being important in a way it would, for example, motivate her parents to abandon her, showing how they loved her. Of course, Rey comes to terms with the truth in TLJ and stops caring about her parents, but just because she stopped caring about them doesn’t indicate as to whether she cares about her grandparents or not.

You kind of have to understand how ridiculous that is, though. I mean, I said that in parody a few comments ago. Like, she learned a big important lesson about her family, but not her extended family!

That really does just feel like they’re resetting her arc to where it was in TLJ.

Rey is absolutely scared of her Palpatine heritage in TRoS, because, due to her lack of self-worth, she fears being rejected by everyone, she fears about what everyone else would think if they find out of her heritage, she fears that no one is going to give her validation if they find out her heritage. This is implied in some later scenes, including her following conversation with Finn (“Rey, I know you…” “People keep telling me they know me. I’m afraid no one does…”).

This is a good point, though.

JadedSkywalker said:

Rey is now the Last Jedi the same as Luke. Rey, Finn and Poe have to restore justice to the galaxy and restore the Republic. Rey needs to take on students and not repeat Luke and the prequel Jedi mistakes.

Maybe her order will be less dogmatic and accept a wider view of the force. She isn’t alone her family is Poe and Finn.

This is one of the biggest reasons why I’m not really interested in any Star Wars content set after TRoS. Content going forward is going to have to try their darnedest to distinguish Rey’s go at restoring the Jedi from Luke’s go at restoring the Jedi.

They can come up with tons of reasons why Rey’s attempt is going to be different from Luke’s attempt, but unless it flows naturally from the sequel trilogy and Rey’s arc (and respectively the Star Wars Trilogy and Luke’s arc), I don’t think I’ll be able to buy it. And I don’t think they’re going to be able to, when Rey in TRoS is so similar to Luke in RotJ.

As much as I love TLJ, this is why I also think Luke dying was a mistake. If Luke lived, it could’ve been a together thing, and Rey’s attempt would also be Luke’s attempt. That could’ve been pretty neat. But the New EU is kind of stuck with this arrangement. I suspect Luke dying wasn’t Rian’s idea, though.

Post
#1424059
Topic
Idea: OT Edits to Fit the PT and/or the Larger Saga (A Resource Thread, Hopefully)
Time

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Ed Slushie said:

Could Obi-Wan’s line to Yoda be changed from “when you taught me” to “when you found me?”

That sounds like an easier method than mentioning Qui-Gon. Especially since we don’t actually know which Jedi retrieved Obi-Wan as a kid. Reminds me of Plo-Koon and Ashoka.

I don’t know how meaningful it is for a 3 year old to be impatient. Maybe cutting the idea from the PT about Jedi needing to start their training so young too would be a good idea?

Post
#1424000
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Artan42 said:

SparkySywer said:

NeverarGreat said:

I can easily see amendments written which would destroy democracy, like making the Chancellors term in office, and his practical power…unlimited.

This comment has made me realize that “Amendment after amendment” might be saying that Palpatine is making amendments, not that George Lucas thinks amendments are like units of Constitution juice or something.

Still… what an incredibly awkward line. Don’t blame me for thinking “Amendment after amendment” meant “Amendment after amendment is in shreds” lol

Artan42 said:

SparkySywer said:

Peter Pan said:

Here’s a different take on the Bail’s apartment scene with dialogue from The Force Unleashed:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sPI80MXqw8pO1wm34C0mLx2jCck-EUk8/view?usp=sharing

It’s far from perfect, but there is potential I think.

“The constitution is in shreds! Amendment after amendment!”

Whoever wrote that line has no idea how government works. It always bothered me, and it’s why I’ve never liked that deleted scene.

A chancellor with unchecked power altering the constitution whenever he wants to stay in power forever? Yeah, no government has ever worked like that.

Can you truly call that a working government?

The Republic isn’t a working government. Corporations have seats as if they were systems.

Post
#1423645
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

It’s not that Rey cared about her grandparents, it’s that the reason her Palpatine heritage is such a big deal to her, personally, is because she is related to the Sith Lord who murdered trillions; on top of that, it’s part of the reason she exiles herself onto Ahch-To until Luke pointed out that she is still valuable and can still do the right thing regardless of her heritage.

But you yourself said that she had already overcome her need for her parents by TLJ? See, it’s right here:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Because of this, she finally overcomes her “need” for her parents, learning to move on from and stop caring for her parents entirely — hence why she seems happy and unaffected during the Battle of Crait; now, with no other option, with Luke having rejected her, with Kylo Ren being the bad guy, with Han Solo now dead, with her parents having thrown her away like garbage, she decides to attach herself to the Resistance and rely on them for validation.


…the reason she seems happy during Crait is because it means she has finally stopped caring about her parents themselves entirely.

If we’ve already come to this point, why is she all the sudden starting to care about her family again?

Post
#1423644
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

NeverarGreat said:

I can easily see amendments written which would destroy democracy, like making the Chancellors term in office, and his practical power…unlimited.

This comment has made me realize that “Amendment after amendment” might be saying that Palpatine is making amendments, not that George Lucas thinks amendments are like units of Constitution juice or something.

Still… what an incredibly awkward line. Don’t blame me for thinking “Amendment after amendment” meant “Amendment after amendment is in shreds” lol

Artan42 said:

SparkySywer said:

Peter Pan said:

Here’s a different take on the Bail’s apartment scene with dialogue from The Force Unleashed:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sPI80MXqw8pO1wm34C0mLx2jCck-EUk8/view?usp=sharing

It’s far from perfect, but there is potential I think.

“The constitution is in shreds! Amendment after amendment!”

Whoever wrote that line has no idea how government works. It always bothered me, and it’s why I’ve never liked that deleted scene.

A chancellor with unchecked power altering the constitution whenever he wants to stay in power forever? Yeah, no government has ever worked like that.

Can you truly call that a working government?

Post
#1423635
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Peter Pan said:

Here’s a different take on the Bail’s apartment scene with dialogue from The Force Unleashed:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sPI80MXqw8pO1wm34C0mLx2jCck-EUk8/view?usp=sharing

It’s far from perfect, but there is potential I think.

“The constitution is in shreds! Amendment after amendment!”

Whoever wrote that line has no idea how government works. It always bothered me, and it’s why I’ve never liked that deleted scene.

Post
#1423457
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread
Time

Jar Jar Bricks said:

The Force Awakens wasn’t NEARLY as jumbled as this movie though, so I find that hard to believe.

The Force Awakens didn’t get a complete reset 2 years before release date.

Brewzter said:

I just finished my own version if anyone is interested:

https://vimeo.com/535658696

I’d recommend putting some audio effects on it to make it sound less like a voiceover and more diegetic.

Post
#1423455
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

I mean, I see how TRoS could be going for the same goal as TLJ in Rey’s arc. But it kind of resets it to how it was at the end of TFA and does it worse.

If by the end of TLJ, she was now beyond caring about who her parents were… why would she give a damn that her grandfather is Palpatine? If she’s learned to move beyond her need for her parents, placing her identity with the Resistance, why would her grandparents have any meaning to her? Did she move past her parents but not her grandparents?

If her talking to the Jedi is the resolution of her arc, and how she finally gets past her toxic beliefs of self-worth, sure. Fine. But wasn’t she already at that point during the Battle of Crait? Didn’t you even say this?

In TFA, she’s obsessed with her parents, despite not even knowing who they are. She places her whole identity and sense of self-worth on them. In TLJ, as the middle part (lowest part) of the arc, she gets the worst possible news as it’s been put: The people who carried her entire identity and self-worth were just some asshole alcoholics.

In TRoS, we get that middle part again, she gets the worst possible news again. Except instead of it being Rey Nobody, now it’s Rey Palpatine. This is why people took Rey Palpatine as an undoing of TLJ. If it was just revealed that she was a Palpatine and she used what she learned from TLJ to overcome that or something, I actually think people wouldn’t believe it was a walk back on TLJ. But that’s not what happened- her arc is reset to where it was before TLJ.

Plus, I kind of feel like it’s just a carbon copy of Luke’s arc in RotJ. He’s learned that he has a little bit of abject evil in his blood, and now because of that connection he’s afraid he’ll turn to the dark side. But Luke’s arc is interesting because, while Luke has a little Vader in him, Vader has a little Luke in him. So he was able to complete his arc by upending the conflict by redeeming Vader. This is my #1 reason why, despite thinking RotJ is the weakest of the trilogy and lacking what ANH and ESB bad, it’s still definitely a great movie.

Rey’s arc has nothing like that. She overcomes her conflict by killing Palpatine. Hell, maybe not even. I don’t really think her questioning her identity and self-worth is ever really resolved, more like dropped. You mention her arc being resolved by talking to the Jedi… but I don’t see it. I don’t think there’s really anything more to that than a plot device on how she could defeat Palpatine. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn’t resolving Rey’s arc.

But, uh, yeah. Back to what I was saying, Rey’s arc in TRoS is kind of just Luke’s arc in RotJ but done worse. Because they focus way harder on “Oh no I have evil blood in me I’m gonna turn evil” in TRoS than anything you mention. Most of what you mention is in there, it’s not unfounded, but it’s not focused on nearly as much as that. So I’ve gotta say that’s probably her core arc in the movie.

I kind of have to agree with RogueLeader. If you’re getting this from TRoS, I’m glad for you. Really. But I think you’re thinking about this way harder than Abrams or Terrio ever did.

Post
#1423444
Topic
Unpopular opinion: I'm glad Palpatine's return wasn't set up in TLJ.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

Your idea for TFA would still undermine TLJ’s idea of hope, because by TLJ it’d still be implied some other threat exists.

I saw an idea in some thread on this site about implying Starkiller Base was involved with bringing back Palpatine. I wasn’t a fan of their idea on how that worked, but it kills two birds with one stone: Replaces its original (dumb) functionality in TFA, and sets up Palpatine, all without killing the third bird by undermining TLJ.

Post
#1423441
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

My closest friend is my ex with a flair that says “I ❤️ my amazing boyfriend”. Pretty hard to sit thru, but I manage.

That sucks, man. You need a rebound girl. Doesn’t have to be anything serious, just something with someone else. Even something as meaningless as a one night stand. I’d set you up if you weren’t Canadian.

Post
#1423152
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread
Time

idir_hh said:

I saw this supposed inside leak on what happened with the Sequels and some of it rings…plausible?
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/mo2wzv/what_happened_with_the_disney_sequel_trilogy_and/

Take it with crane of salt regarldless.

Edit: All the stuff about Lucasfilm seams plausible, When he starts getting in to TROS…not so much.

/r/StarWarsSpeculation is not the place for posting leaks. /r/StarWarsLeaks is better… but the mods actually verify the credibility of leaks. Any Star Wars leak that doesn’t go through that subreddit is untrue in my book, even though this one doesn’t seem particularly bad. Although like you said, there’s a few things that don’t really add up. Not just with TRoS, though. Another thing I don’t really believe is that JJ wanted to walk when George did… was JJ even hired yet?

The differences of the plot details given to JediPaxis and the plot of the final movie also seem like post-production editing, not different drafts of TRoS.

Post
#1423144
Topic
The <strong>Original Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Peter Pan said:

EddieDean said:

Anything that makes that whole scene consensual is a massive value add as far as I’m concerned.

With the line in question it reads more like this:
-Leia is fixing the falcon and Han comes in
-Han tries to help, Leia says No
-han becomes pushy, Leia says No, No, No, No
KISS
-Leia says: “Alright Hotshot” by saying no I actually meant yes
-3PO enters the chat

I see your point, but it retroactively characterizes Leia’s “no”, and Harrison Ford’s acting makes them feel more like equals when it comes to the power dynamic going on. It’s a huge improvement in my eyes.

Post
#1423092
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

In theory I think redubbing Jar Jar as the everyman is the best option, but fanedits that have done it don’t pan out as well as I’d hope. Maybe I’m being too hasty, but a new approach like cutting Jar Jar out completely is something I’m interested in. But maybe since that guy doesn’t seem to be working on it anymore, it didn’t pan out as well as I thought.