The Star Wars fandom should put a gag rule on the phrase “Subverting expectations”. It’s just something Rian said behind the scenes once, and then the marketing team plastered that one sound bite all over the sizzle reel and a bunch of other promotional material. It really wasn’t Rian’s governing principle dominating the production of the movie.
I’ll add another unpopular opinion.
Despite how I feel about The Rise of Skywalker I think the more I come to the conclusion if Rey had stayed “Rey Random” then declared herself a Skywalker I might be a bit more forgiving and able to accept the film more.
Honestly, I’d prefer she accepted herself as “just Rey” - that’s powerful - although finding an ‘adoptive family’ of sorts after discovering that your biological parents abandoned you is a good message to send too.
I’m not opposed to Rey becoming a Skywalker (if it was better executed), but Rey starting her own legacy would be a much better ending to the trilogy than joining someone else’s legacy.
It’s alright I guess. It’s not that great, though. The characters are super boring and the premise of the movie itself is problematic. I mean, we start where we do in ANH because the story before ANH isn’t important or interesting. Plus, the Death Star plans on their own aren’t really an interesting story, especially in the format of a big action blockbuster with a big fight at the end.
I watched it three times in the movie theater, but I think only because I loved seeing the OT aesthetic on the big screen and not just on the TV. I can no longer say I watched it since, because I watched it again back in 2019 (my friends wanted to). But other than that, I haven’t.
Since ANH, We have had constant “dumb star wars moments” that get remedied in time.
Why was there a weak spot in the death star and no one noticed.
Hal 9000 said:
Yeah but ghosts… don’t necessarily act like human beings who take the world seriously. They are perhaps more like divine figures who intervene according to something else.
The Force doesn’t necessarily think and act the way humans do, and in death the distinction between the part of the Force that is the individual and the Force in its totality is lost.
You can sort of fill the Wayfinder plot hole if Vader just simply didn’t know about Exegol, or at least where it was. That makes Vader even more of an unequal partner to Palpatine, though, and that’s something I’m not a fan of.
You’re not going to be able to purchase 24.000 versions. If you really want that, the best shot you have is the edit the Blu Ray yourself, but I doubt that would turn out well. I have no clue why you’re calling 23.976 crap, though, and I doubt you’re able to tell the difference. The difference is less than a tenth of a percent.
They are, and ideally I’d want it to also be preserved. But that said, if they released box sets of the theatrical versions and the 2019 versions from now on, I wouldn’t feel as strongly about its preservation as I do about the unaltered movies and as I would if the 2019 versions were erased.
I regret jumping into the ST arguments into this thread all the time, because this isn’t the ST arguments thread, this is the random ST fanedit ideas thread. But… I have no self control and have to have the last word.
If Luke being a hermit is a given, the reason Rian gave for why is the best possible reason, especially given the context given to him in TFA. I’ve never, ever seen anyone propose an alternative reason they would’ve preferred, period, let alone a better one. And all the other reasons I can think of (Luke’s trapped there, Luke’s hunting/researching something that’ll help him beat Snoke, etc) don’t lead into anything more creatively interesting than “Good guys and bad guys get in a big fight and the good guys win”. For a sequel to something as big as Star Wars, I want something better than that.
Maybe I’m missing something, but again, nobody ever proposes anything they’d have preferred, let alone something actually better than that.
I’ve never seen Luke’s vision as out of character, though. Luke sees a vision of Ben killing all his friends, Leia, Han, and destroying everything he and his friends spent their whole lives working so hard on. And he realizes he could prevent it all from happening incredibly easily, but he knows it’s wrong to do that. Not just because killing some teenager is super fucked up, but because of what he learned with Vader. Anyone can be redeemed and no person’s future is set in stone.
When Ben destroys his temple, he looks back at his own actions and the actions of the prequel-era Jedi, and comes to the conclusion that the Jedi taking too active of a role in the galaxy was harmful. So he chooses to go into exile, because he believes that’s what’s best for the galaxy.
Seems pretty in-character to me. Even for young Luke, and bear in mind, the ST Luke has spend a good majority of his life after Return of the Jedi.
The idea that Luke in TLJ’s character is “He tried to kill Ben in his sleep and then he abandoned all his friends and the galaxy to sulk and be depressed” is, to put it diplomatically… not entirely accurate.
And don’t really think the decision to put Luke on the island in TFA is that big a deal either. I’m a fan of TFA, and looking for Luke Skywalker was a good hook into a new story and new characters. It’s a little safe, but after the prequels and a change in ownership, faith in Lucasfilm was at an all time low from 2012-2015. TFA undeniably won it back, being the most uncontroversially popular thing that’s been put out since the buyout. Except maybe Mando Season 1.
Maybe I’m missing some better big picture story, but most ST rewrites (which take place at the appropriate time for the actors’ ages) just have the OT trio as entirely static characters, who face off against a boring new villain, and do absolutely nothing interesting on the way to victory.
(Which sucks, because I want to get into ST rewrites but most of them are really awful)
Luke immediately throws away the lightsaber and shuts himself in his hut, refusing to help Rey or the Resistance.
Rose, despite her initial fangirl attitude, actively thwarts Finn’s escape attempt in the process and then accuses him of being a traitor.
Holdo immediately gives Poe a dressing-down and refuses to let him in on her plans, to the point that he believes that she is an enemy.
I don’t really agree. Luke’s character arc is sort of the entire point of the movie, I don’t think changing it would be a good idea. And with Holdo, she’s not an antagonistic ally, she’s functionally a straight antagonist until the end of the movie.
Rose is the only character here where this really applies well to, but even then I wouldn’t consider her an antagonistic ally. More of an ally who gets off to a rough start with Finn. Especially because Finn is clearly in the wrong trying to abandon ship.
The short of it is that Rian was so enamored with subverting expectations that he forgot to make the allies of the film likeable from the outset.
It really sucks that “subverting expectations” has been so associated with the Last Jedi. It wasn’t Rian’s governing mindset making the movie, it’s just something he said once behind the scenes and the marketing department plastered that soundbyte everywhere.
Might be more suited for HAL’s thread, but it’s kind of dead so I thought I’d put it here. He mentions in his commentary that in Rey’s duel with Luke, his initial viewing reaction was along the lines of “oh, it’s Rey outdoing my hero again…” - but I’m not crazy, Luke wins the fight, right? He fairly effortlessly blocks every blow and then disarms her. She’s the aggressor, he has no intention of hurting her. She only ‘wins’ after that by drawing a lightsaber on him, and I can hardly hold it against Luke for backing away from that rather than attempting to continue to fight with a stick!
Absolutely. I have no idea what HAL’s opinion is or even if he’s the one you’re talking about, but I see that sort of take a lot on the internet.
While they’re fighting, Luke gives Rey a light tap with his metal pole (?), which shows that Luke’s in total control of the fight. Rey is leaving herself so open, and Luke is so far above her in skill, that he’s able to playfully hit her. If it were a real fight, if Luke actually felt like he was in any sort of danger, he could have made that deadly.
She only gets (what appears to be) the upper hand because she cheats and pulls a lightsaber, but I still doubt that she even has the upper hand. I’m sure Luke would’ve been able to pull something and “win” against her, especially because of how he’s depicted in that moment. But when a weapon as deadly as a lightsaber is involved, one of the two of them probably would’ve ended up dead. Probably Rey, but that’s still not what Luke wants to happen.
Not the image you wanted, but the image you needed.
All the inconsistencies between the PT and OT can be explained away by just saying that the OT characters are just clones of their PT counterparts.
I don’t think TLJ sidelined Finn, I think it’s just that the Canto Bight arc was a little weak. It’s not hard to imagine an Episode 9 where Finn is just as prominent as Rey, if not more.
TRoS is kind of indefensible in this regard, though. Finn’s barely a character and it’s hard to imagine any post-TRoS story where Finn isn’t completely lesser than Rey, especially now that Rey’s supposed to be training Finn.
with the Mandolorian subtly trying not to acknowledge them either
It’s interesting that this narrative has picked up so much steam considering how it has little basis in the text.
Yeah but Mando is kino and Jon Favreau is based Happy Hogan, therefore it must be ignoring the ST.
Edit: I do agree that there’s absolutely no way Grogu is going to die during the destruction of Luke’s temple though. Honestly, I don’t know why everyone just assumed that immediately - there’s about nineteen years in between Mando Season 2 and the temple getting blown up; Ben Solo is still only four years old when Luke takes Grogu. There’s zero chance of Grogu, the merchandising overlord, remaining absent for the entire rest of the show.
I think it’s just moreso that Grogu going with Luke calls attention to that. It’s not hard to write an Episode where Grogu leaves Luke and reunites with Mando (and I fully expect it to happen in the first or second episode of Season 3), but it’s something that they still have to write.
Sorry if my Rian comment offended some of you. I figured that since this thread’s goal was to edit the sequels, that most of you didn’t like TLJ, which is the main reason the sequels need to be edited, from a story standpoint.
Ultimately the reason I’m interested in ST fanedits is because there’s an actually good story told under some surface-level problems. There’s a lot of potential for even a more conservative fanedit to improve upon them. Compared to the prequels, which are so deeply bad that it would take a really radical fanedit to fix them. Which is really a whole different can of worms.
Hal 9000 said:
Anakin Starkiller said:
To match TFA, 3PO has a differently colored arm in every film (except Rogue One, where it matches ANH).
Hell, have his arm pop off during his five second cameo in Rogue One.
Obviously this would be a long awaited explanation for why his arm changes colors from the prequels to ANH
Attack Of The Clones:
-Remove Anakin killing the Tuskens and him talking about it with Padme, the scene ends with Shmi’s death and the next time we see Anakin; he is bringing her body to the Lars’ home (Though he still kills them, as this event would be referenced by Palpatine in ROTS)
I think if you’re gonna cut it, you should just commit to it and cut the line from RotS. The line’s too vague in RotS, if I were watching that for the first time, I’d think it was an inconsistency.
Using both the blue and green lightsabers feels like having your cake and eating it too.
Even if it’s intentionally awful, it’s still awful.
Whose to say they’re seperate treatments? They could be part of the same story treatment as the Whills storyline but he didn’t feel the need to address it further since he already discussed it with James Cameron.
It’s certainly possible, but we know of at least three entirely separate, completely unconnected and contradictory sequel trilogy ideas he’s had over the years that have been very publicly known to be separate, and were thought up at very different times, decades apart. Plus, we know there are more than just those three, ones that we just don’t know the details about.
It would be really weird if they were spending the whole book dancing around a core concept of this sequel trilogy, it’s more believable that this is just a fourth idea.
I love George and thank him immensely for creating something that’s brought me so much joy my whole life, but in my opinion Star Wars is at its best the more other people are allowed to play in his sandbox.
Ed Slushie said:
I just had an idea: what if we found a way to make it look like Snoke was the one who smashed Kylo Ren’s helmet? He insults the helmet multiple times so it seems like something he would do, and then it would make Kylo reforging his helmet seem like he’s growing rather than regressing.
Maybe, we could even move the scene of him reforging his helmet up to the end of The Last Jedi, as an epilogue/cliffhanger.
I’m sort of a fan
I think it sacrifices TLJ a bit too much for TRoS’s sake, but if you’re trying to bring TRoS back into the fold, this edit is a must.
I feel like Kylo Ren (and AOTC Anakin to a degree as well) has warped the perception somewhat of what an angry SW character has to be though. Anger doesn’t always mean rage. There are moments, even a few in ESB, were you can hear Vader seething, and he does have a few growls as well (one which ironically was removed in the SE). And, as has been pointed out earlier, within the first 10 mins of ANH we get to see (or rather hear) Vader straight up bark orders at his men, not to mention strangle a man he’s interrogating to death before he gets anything out of him. There’s so much more to anger, and acting out anger, than the unhinged shouting of Kylo in the ST.
I was looking for a better word to describe Vader’s anger, and that’s a pretty good one: Seething.
He’s not flipping shit losing his mind in anger, he’s seething.
But the way those lines are differed is markedly different than it is in ESB. Seriously, compare this scene in ANH:
This always came off to me, for lack of a better word, like a sort of bad cop routine. He’s not losing it in rage, this is strictly professional violence with a specific goal. He’s exerting the Empire’s will.
I’m sick as a dog, and while I don’t think it’s covid (I can taste and smell fine), I’m lethargic as hell, dizzy, and can’t breathe.
Now we have the mods editing and now removing comments that poked holes in their side of the story (and again, mine was simply proposing a simple way to get to the bottom of it all), for frankly very dubious reasons, it’s shady as hell and makes me lose a lot of sympathy for them. Kind of makes me think that Junior’s comment was onto something…
As I’ve said before, I’ve been on this forum a heck of a long time. Through thick and thin and some of the worst times in my life, this forum was often my refuge. Accepting the moderator gig was a way to give back to this crazy wonderful place. If people think I’m being shady or dishonest now, maybe I should retire? What good am I as a mod if I don’t have your trust?
I had just emerged from a lengthy personal crisis days before the pandemic started, and was stressed and worn out already. I’ve already planned to take a sabbatical when I can finally get my damned eye surgery. The pandemic and insurance shenanigans have played hell with that.
Something I’ll have to ponder for a while.
I trust your intentions and I like you as a person. I don’t mean to insult you or anything like that, and I’m sorry if what I said made you feel that way.
Not OT, but just noticed that in AotC, Obi-Wan calls the Jedi Temple the “Old Folks’ Home”… twice.
I sort of agree that Vader isn’t stoic and unemoting in the OT, you can see in Empire that he loses his cool by the end of the movie.
That said, though, that’s pretty much as emotional as he gets, and that’s sort of the power of scenes like this (pardon the Special Edition). You can just feel, from both David Prowse’s acting and the acting of all the Imperial Officers on the bridge with him, that he’s losing his mind with rage inside. His failure to take in Luke Skywalker has driven him past his breaking point.
But he doesn’t whip out his lightsaber tearing up some console (I don’t have any issue with Kylo as a character, but Vader is not Kylo), or cry out “Noooo!!!”, he’s pretty collected.
Nothing he does in ANH comes off as particularly hotheaded. He’s violent as hell, but not at all a hothead.
You can maintain that choking someone for disrespecting your religion is hotheaded, and in a normal society it would be. But in the high ranks of a military junta… not so much. Violence doesn’t seem as surprising to the Imperials here as it would be to us. It’s not like Vader flips out and screams at Motti and chokes him, he’s pretty collected and uses violence to prove Motti wrong. Again, which comes off as pretty normal in a despotic military dictatorship.
And you can’t say “vAdEr wAsN’t a sItH lOrD iN tHe oT, ThAt wAs A rEtCoN bY tHe PrEQuEls”
I have no idea who you’re trying to mock here, Vader having the title “Dark Lord of the Sith” was common knowledge from 1977. What exactly the Sith were was never really settled until TPM, but literally nobody would deny that he was a Sith during the OT’s production.
Honestly, I don’t really get what your point here really is at all, I really don’t think I’ve ever seen someone suggest that Vader’s completely unemoting and stoic.
I sort of agree with Neverar, I don’t really think the Jedi having an official age limit undermines the line in the OT. It’s still really dumb, though, and it feels like it’s a gross misinterpretation of the line in ESB, especially because Lucas was not the one who wrote it.