Revised positioning on the mandible. Based on how low beneath the cockpit it is. It is starting to become a lot clearer to me now.
SilverWook said:
I'm having a hard time thinking of any side shot of the cockpit from Chewie's side looking towards Han. It's possible they didn't want to have to deal with showing a bit of the Falcon's exterior in those scenes.
Will be interesting to see if we get that sort of shot in Episode 7 though.
Absolutely SilverWook that is part of the magic of film making. not showing this angle ever in any of the OT Star wars films.
Because it is not filmed in that cockpit.
It's about time Han's Head was there in profile in this day and age
"you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Not a problem Imperial Fighter at all...
I am finding this all very confusing myself but interesting all the same and find myself swinging to and fro between thinking "Yes" we should be able to see it and then recounting that and then saying "No" we should not be able to see it.
Although I feel discovering that the POV shot we have been looking at is cropped.. I would like to touch on something you mentioned earlier about the mandibles face being under the ring (well it is in the ESB and ROTJ version anyway) I am not sure I have no time today to really check this but will do soon. But as I have been saying about height gain and if the cockpit in the ESB & ROTJ versions is actually also higher.
I may actually go to the RPF and ask for a few snaps out the window from Stinson on this model matched closely to the shots in the films just so we can settle this fairly conclusively as we are playing silly guessing games and trying to figure out pespectives on some pretty strange angles.
It's a lovely model but it is STAR WARS screen accurate and the dimensions don't match the cockpit of the ESB & ROTJ one.
Now spot the difference in the ESB and ROTJ cockpit from this model
The dimensions are different. The frame is higher. Now weather this is an un-cropped cockpit view it is on 2004 bonus disc. But I think it is a slightly different angle to the cockpit shot I am pointing to.
You going to have to drop the Star wars cockpit I already have said we would not see the mandible in the first film because we never get to the camera angle as the one in question.
You also need to think about what happens the higher you go with the camera the mandible becomes more visible. And think of it like the cockpit got bigger and wider to the right. It's a bit of a Tardis effect.
The cockpit shot from the 2004 Bonus disc is an un-cropped version of the cockpit view I can confirm that now.. And that means we are lower in the cockpit than I initially thought. But it is slightly less wide.
I am happy to reconcile and conceed that the madible would not be visible at this angle based on filling in the blanks at what angle the camera is now positioned at. Now we can see a better picture of where we are in the cockpit. :) 3 down 1 to go...
The Space Slug escape POV View still needs to be explored also.
This is absolutely in no way a cropped cockpit... well it might be, but It is much higher up and looking up and I am pretty much certain the conditions here are a dead cert for seeing the mandible here.
It may be worth trying to match up the angles with that full cockpit to ascertain position of the camera. The question is if it is cropped then it would be more than likely cropped at the bottom and not at the top as the 2004 bonus disc displays.
Mrebo said:
I hope this debate rages for years. Especially the definition of matte painting. But it seems all the mock ups show a mandible jutting upward in relation to the cockpit at an angle some would consider to be unnatural.
Not any more...
Yeah it's probably not 100% correct but, you can now start to see the angles and how the perspective works(probably not scaled correctly either). I have never really been much good at art so now most of the difficult bit of figuring it out to a (near enough) degree is done. But I will leave the rest to any talented artists that really want to make me drool and sell the image much better than what I could ever do.
Now Bingowings brought up about star destroyers now to be honest I don't think there are any perspective issues with any of the out the window shots but if he was referring to making a shot where you look out the bridge and see the ship below yes I agree that would be an interesting image to digest.
But also there are a few other problems with perspective with other ships cockpits but I think the most interesting thing that Bingowings brought up was the Emperors tower on the Death Star 2...This does have some very serious perspective issues.
If any one feels up for going hunting for any perspective problems I would be interested to see them.
yes it is angled way to far down in the image I posted...Yours is angled way to far back and too low.
If you were to go up in height and tilt downward and come forward a small bit you would achieve the angle in the POV cockpit shot I have been focusing on in the film.
But don't forget the sides of the cockpit is higher in the ESB cockpit and the Bars / frame are also of a totally different configuration.
The Falcon cockpit is a bit bigger in the ESB & ROTJ movies
That Render is for the star wars falcon cockpit not ESB and ROTJ and it's also not in the same aspect ratio as the film is in. nor does it have the same FOV settings as the lens that filmed the scene. But I would say that the shot that you pointed out is not the closest to the one in question in the film. It's this one.
yes it is looking to the left a bit but not enough to obscure the mandible if it were centered. Also take into account the height gain to actually frame the cockpit bars in such a way so as they would fill the screen without the dashboard visible. (This would obscure the mandible further) and in this case a fair tilt upward. Scroll up to the Route 66 mock up where the falcon visited Area 51 for a tourist trip to view the drop down of angle shift and how the flat face would be more obscured, and when centered the mandible would do a shift to the left further outward along the horizontal plane.
I really don't mind if it's not visible but my gut tells me that everything points to it being visible at that particular angle in the POV shot we see in the film. And only the shot I have pointed out. Please note I have disregarded every other angle as saying "No Chance". I am happy to put my hands up and say "you know what you are right"... But I still am not ready to do so at this time based on the evidence
That Line is very important Imp Fighter in ascertaining the actual horizontal face of the mandible indeed. But as I have stated earlier we also have to take in to account the height of the camera and the slight tilt downward but over the dashboard controls. The mandible sticks out in front of the Falcon cockpit at about 5 x length of the cockpit in to the distance albeit angled away to the left.
Ok Imp, forget about the blackness of outer soace...
Think about how everything bends inwards when you look forward down a long desert road.
Now again I am making a guess but a guess based on angles and position of the mandible in the green on the left.
You must unlearn what you have learned...
Well Just by looking at a simple angle measure we Can have a rough guess on the POV cockpit that the view cone is around 130 degrees. Subtracting around 50 degrees (25 from each side and looking at the Falcons shape and dimensions.)
This feels about right to me as a rough quick look.
Also to address what you have said Fanfiltration. Yes Han would not see anything sitting down. But if you look at the position of the camera in the POV cockpit shot it is actually about Head height looking down over the dashboard. The bottom of the image does not encompass the dashboard details.
There is only the POV Cockpit shot in the original post I think that could remotely have a chance of glimpsing a part of the ship out the window (never tell me the odds)
The only other thing I thought of as perhaps a way of calculating the Extended view out the window was to draw a box around the details we see and then extend lines which are approximate as to where they would go. I would like to say though that I am not really sure about this type of calculation and if it would yield an accuracy at all. But I do feel that it shows perhaps part of a process in to figuring this out.
@Bingo one thing at a time...
Ok so that means that we have to make a calculation on the lens that was used.
In my opinion it is a fairly wide angled lens.
This will ultimately tell us if we would or would not.
If we looked with our eyes we would see them without doubt but yes the camera lens is different.
I don't do face palms but i do smash my face against a wall occasionally :)
Ok so the reason i called matte painting was because the shot at this angle while Luke hangs under cloud city. I missed that one so a count of 4 shots at this angle in ESB and a few more in Jedi.
Anyway i agree with Dave the angle i have is wrong also.
But the camera is fairly high in the cockpit. where as in all the other shots we are low enough to not see the right mandible.
I was on the cusp of saying we would not see the mandible at all last night but i think a small part would be visible. I also thought for a while the actual tip of the mandible would not be visible but only the chassis leading off to the tip.
It is all Stinsons fault anyway :)
I suppose if i wanted to add some more insults and injuries to my current assessment and say this.
It is not a camera angle it is a matte painting!!!
So... it is just a painting with holes slapped on top of the footage, so I suppose you can let the camera men off the hook. but the matte painting artist has made a small boo boo :)
QuarltonBanks said:
I don't really see the point of using audio from the characters talking, considering it's pretty much all just what they say in the movie.
Can open up quite a bit of editing freedom something like that can....
It's a whip up :)
But I think the go pro could be the way forward :)
There is only two other shots in ESB that I am currently aware of that uses this particular angle of when Leia says "Star Destroyer" towards the end of the film. And the Space Slug Escape (this one is a little different) But I believe there are more in ROTJ escape out DS2 springs to mind at this angle but I don't think Star Wars uses this angle at all if my memory serves me correctly.
Just a quick extra thought but would it be possible to use a 3DS Max model and simply delete the windows if they are a hard shell and put a camera in there? Not sure what field of view the camera should be set at mind but perhaps a standard FOV would do..... The other option is simply measuring out some lengths on a accurate physical model and making a calculation. Unfortunately I have neither of these so I am making guesstimations.
I think it's a bit of fun trivia and not so sure it would work as an addition to the cockpits views but I am just more curious than anything else really.
Ok so I thought it was a discussion worth bringing up.
At what point depending on where the camera is positioned within the Falcon cockpit shots should we see the mandible?
By no means am I saying that the image I have posted is in any way correct but It is something I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty. If we are behind the front seats of the Falcon we would not see them at all.
But when the camera moves to a position such as in the picture, above the dashboard we should see the mandible.
But if the camera moves further down to the middle ring right at the furthest most tip then I think we would not see the mandible at this angle which is also featured in some shots.
Anyone care to shed some light on angles and correct positioning for where the mandible would actually be?
It was good fun :) watched it today.
Did you follow the shooting script for the probe droid reaching Hoth edit? Because that is very close to how it was originally intended to be.
And also not asking you to change anything but did you ever think about how it might appear if once the rebels have been discovered on Hoth Then Han all of a sudden has to leave....Not to mention the costume change :)
But all in all Yeah it was a lot of fun I enjoyed it.
I am talking about the film that was on the screen when they scored it not the edited final film.
In your clip as the loading Pipe comes down the music matches the action exactly and perfectly.
As soon as we get to the resolve of R2-D2 being sucked up the pipe the Music reacts after the action not "On" the action... And it's obviously a sped up piece of footage. That tells us a bit of story that, that particular shot was probably altered perhaps further sped up I am not saying you made a mistake or John Williams made a mistake and scored it late. But I think that it was possibly changed slightly after scoring happened.
I Enjoyed your clip Fishmanlee.
I really like the music where the Jawas are poking the heads around the corners of Rocks and so fourth.
but It then feels like the music weakens R2-D2 being disabled and all the the tension is lost. This is more of a Video Editing Metronome than actually anything resembling music scored to the action on screen. It is not music score but a timer.
But as R2-D2 fails and falls the music is great from here on out on that cue until the end of the clip.
You might be running a tiny bit Late when R2-D2 is sucked up the Loading Pipe.... But I think what is happening there is John Williams scored the scene before they sped up the footage of R2-D2 being lifted up the pipe so that probably accounts for this discrepancy.
are these the droids your looking for?
21B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWnnQdYetI8
IG88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_a66F4quFg
Full / part animatronic models by two different people. I was actually like wow they are very, very good so I thought I would bring them up here. It could be useful for you lot... if not now perhaps in the future.... Basically I thought I would share for your benefit if you were not aware of them. I only just seen them both a few moments ago myself.
Nerfherder said:
The last act of Empire is nearly operatic in its intensity and is absolutely BEAUTIFULLY scored and PACED! It's not even the change in Vader's voice, or the pointless shot of Vader arriving, it's the total and utter DESTRUCTION of the musical flow in that scene! It's just completely and utterly ruined! For the sake of about 5 seconds of needless exposition.
It's the single most offensive change to the entire original trilogy in my humble opinion, and shows that either Lucas, or Ben Burtt (Perhaps both) haven't a CLUE about the importance of musical pacing in a scene. It's almost like they see music as a generic sound effect - you can cut and paste it all you like as long as the general feel of each piece is roughly the same. This kind of attitude towards the importance of John Williams' masterpiece(s) really is quite offensive. I would love to know his feelings when he saw this edit. This scene was scored in a way few films regrettably are these days (or even then) - it was a perfect marriage of editing, FX work, and of course musical scoring. It was at this point I realised Lucas had lost control of whatever it was he had in the first place, and he was just using the original films to play about with CGI in anticipation of the prequals.
I actually didn't mind many of the changes to Empire, but this one change rendered the Special Edition unwatchable for me. It bugs me just thinking about it. Even though the GOUT is such low quality, it's still the one I goto now for any of the films.
I'd rather watch a faded masterpiece than a cleaned-up patchwork mess of a classic film.
In the theatrical cut of Empire Strikes Back when Lando comes out the top Hatch of the falcon and Luke Drops from the weather vane around 5 seconds of music / 2 bars are cut out. So what you are describing as treating the music as a generic sound effect has been in their minds from the first release of the film.
There was actually meant to be a few more shots.
Lando pulling Luke across the falcons chasis back to the Hatch
And I think (Best Guess) a cockpit Shot of Leia and Chewie and a blast from the Tie Fighters (within Cockpit).
That if anything should have been the special edition version not what they did which was a new idea. And had nothing to do with what was left on the cutting room floor. or it should have just stuck with the theatrical cut if this alternative was cut for very good reasons. Or they could have atleast showed us the scene in workprint.
I think it went
Lando scramble across on top of falcon dragging Luke.
Leia Internal cockpit "Hurry, we've got company" (Heard in the original Thetrical 70mm the one without the falcon dish)
BANG!
Tie fighters soaring under cloud city
Leia "Lando"
Lando "ok, Let's go"
Another possible configuration is Luke drops from the weather Vane Then Lando Looks around out of the top Hatch Cut to Leia "Hurry, we Have company" Lando pulling Luke across the top of the falcon then resume Tie fighters soaring uder cloud city and so fourth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCpz2Wv5r3c
Monroville, Is there anything of use even sound files from Alien Isolation?
Yes I know it is a game but it was rather atmospheric and Sighorney Weaver Did do some voice work. Although I am unsure if it relates or ties in with what you want to do. I know it is a game but there could be some nice narration in there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5UmE6ruhss
Audio logs by Ash also
Yes I would Have to agree with you, I would like to have seen the first cut though.
Actually I made a mistake with Robocop 2 It's Peter Weller that was really upset about his character becoming de-humanised further. Not Studio involvement it was Kershner's choice to cut it apparently which is a bit strange going from Empire a very human film...
But Marquand was not on the same big hitting scale as Kershner he must have been far easier to tell him what to do. But I don't think ROTJ was Chopped about as much as ESB was in Editing. Or ateast I don't think it was?
ROTJ has a lot going for it still but I think Lucus did not want a repeat of Empire where it seems George and Kershner both had to compromise on final cut. Or George was making more compromises than he wanted to.
George wanted more control Back on ROTJ and he got it.
Mavericks said:
Now what interested me much was why he wasn’t to direct Jedi too? It turned out Lucas offered this but Kersh himself got out. The reasons he listed seems contradicting to me:
- It took too long and was too exhausting both physically and emotionally
- He felt doing two for George would be too much and he didn’t wish to be «an employee of Lucas» (Wow, interesting, isn’t it? He considered Lucas a very creative and adored his earlier work, so why in the name of art and talent not to help him more than once? Eventually, he directed not for «thank you» but for being paid/gyven credits and I doubt that doing Empire didn’t result in his bank account increase)
- He didn’t want
- He didn’t believe the script
It's no surprise that Kershner wanted out as after he cut the film George disagreed with it and re-cut the film (ESB) and then a 3rd cut had to be made to put back in of some of kershner's original cuts. (Secret History of Star Wars -That is where I read this. Not sure how true this is?)
How much of Empire is purely Kershner's Vision remains very unclear.
He then got the job of Robocop 2 that again was altered away from making Robocop more human and a tortured soul. Which was Kersners Desire which to be honest was I think a good call on his part. But the Studio disagreed with it and altered / ordered the footage cut out.
Kershner was of a much older ilk of film maker and he was obviously desired in some sense but also shunned in others, and perhaps did not fit with the modernistic approach that films were taking at that time. But I think that you need not look any further than not having Final cut or limited creative control is enough to walk away and say "not doing this again"
But I doubt Empire is too far different from what was planned. Robocop 2 however I think finished him off as a big budget film director.
Here's Looking at you kid...
What do you Frink? :)
Steady Cam or Boom mic operator or just really bad lighting issues?
Not so far fetched....
And Frink thanks for making me laugh on my way home this evening. I could not stop chuckling at your comment. It was pure Gold...