Sign In

Ronster

User Group
Trusted Members
Join date
10-Dec-2011
Last activity
23-Jun-2018
Posts
2560

Post History

Post
#1219216
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

DrDre said:

There’s a nice video of the first few minutes of a projected Derann print on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fohpOUyZjQ

The colors for the corridor scene with Leia/R2-D2, as well as other dark scenes seem to have been adjusted for this release in terms of hue and brightness. The Derann preservation by TN1/poita/Althor seems to show these dark scenes have been brightened quite considerably compared to the theatrical prints, probably due to the fact that Super8 does not have the same dynamic range as 35mm.

I think It looks quite Cyan the Dark corridor scenes, and I noticed that pushing it that way was yielding good results for the 3po shots but did not consider the Leia R2-D2 needless to say this is how I remember it from the UK and this would seem to be a UK release the Deraan.

Talking about wrapping different looks in one video file that is why I proposed porting video in to an game engine and applying LUTs in real time and shaders.

Anyway that to me in that print is how it was in UK, shame the person does not have proper screen material the light switch was putting me off… I was expecting a hand to creep in and switch the lights on so the projection would be ruined 😃

That to me is correct but to others it won’t be depending on where you are from. Seems also a bit red bleed in it which is normal for prints. Magnolia walls don’t help none…

Post
#1216883
Topic
1997 Star Wars Special Edition 35mm Project
Time

poita said:

I found the reference in one of my books:
"Massassi hangar, interior: “Thet had one complete X-Wing, a Y-Wing and some bits and pieces, painted ships. SO I took the plate, reduced it, and then put it down in the left centre; then I took the same plate, reduced it even more, and put it in the background on the right hand side of the frame; then I painted around it, just lots of little lights in the back, a couple of shapes, a few hoses hanging down. Youd be amazed how little is on that painting”

Do you have the art of star wars - revised 1997 edition? In the back there are some stills for some of the 1997 special edition shots…

I am guessing you do have it after posting that concept art trailer 😃

People often want to bash me when I talk about stuff like this “Why did they not special edition this scene?” and so on but practically destroy mos-eisley space port with comedy dinosaurs…

Actually I am curious what your plan is? are you coloring this to be the special edition or Technicolor?

Either Way I accept the Special edition as a version but the main problem is, is that the footage just looks different and does not Gel well with the model shots and I like the model shots but I also like some of the special edition stuff. Some shots it would seem were intended to be extended versions of shots but ultimately the decision was made to drop the original model shots and just have the CGI version.

Couple examples of extensions that were if you like called off…


I know this is a preservation but could it be that there was some sort of error made, that made the CGI stick out more than it should of done in the 1997? Especially considering loss of luminance? Or is it more that the model shots stick out more against the CGI? I am basing this off the fact that if they were planning on extending some bits they would have matched the look… But it all must of went out the window at some stage I guess…

Post
#1216178
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

poita said:

It certainly has that old home video look about it. The skin tones are a bit yellow. but I enjoy the lush look of threepio.

It was fun watching along with the experiment!

Then I succeeded! Because that was the main goal try to re-create the home video feel but a bit better.

Probably pushed to hard on yellow highlights… anyway I learned something thanks for your input 😃

The whole corridor part at the start give me a headache… The walls are really hard to color match.

Post
#1216059
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Here is my final go at this it’s not perfect and I know I can do this a bit better but I don’t have the time. It was a rough experiment any way. Not that there is not, any good stuff about it.

Nobody posted any stills from the Technidisc so I had no idea what color the flashes were in that release only what they looked like (the flashes) in other home video so I just changed all of them to how I sort of remember it. At the end of the day it’s not that important… But it was fairly good fun. Watch out for the corrected hues again small but noticeable. If I made any mistakes I am over it the experiment is done.

Hope you Enjoy my take on home video Star Wars first 5 minutes. with a lot less magenta 😃

https://vimeo.com/274577416

Post
#1215706
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

poita said:

Very interesting.
My only suggestion is to calibrate your screen with some test patterns or with a calibration meter, as everything you post is really quite dark overall.

The images do look CRT-like, but the gamma is way off (too dark).

It’s actually deliberate to make it darker because it’s too bright or bright in the wrong way and also I have been looking at giving the image more range and color depth where I can… But I agree so I have now gone from 1.13 Gamma to 1.26 Gamma but I will not go higher than this unless a certain shot demands it. (actually a shot of storm troopers went to 1.51)

I am being cautious about not losing the depth I am trying to create so It has been a creative decision but like I said I agree and you hit the nail what was missing so It’s going to have more Gamma now but only 13 points more or unless a shot demands more.

Trying to get that home video feel but a bit better than it was sort of.

Hopefully I will finish this now tomorrow and I will load it up on Vimeo and well that will be the end of this experiment…

also I figured something out…

We are definitely missing missing two shots of the booster detaching and the nose capsule re-entry but the shot of the escape pod flying towards Tattoine was the one that was meant to get blown up. 😃

The external view of the escape pod flying away from underbelly (DVD Menu Version Full shot) and the shot flying towards Tattooine go together but it get’s blown up by laser fire.

If the guy on the turret actually had got a shot off and the booster part detached it might have been a dupe to make you think it was destroyed? But anyway it’s all educated guesses and it’s something like this in the version you never saw before…

Anyway alternate footage that replaces the shots for the first Pod destroyed.

Post
#1215658
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

It’s a normal video player with shader support and Luts / effects but it’s also a game engine the big obstacle for me using that Is I don’t know any C++ but I was looking at it when I searched for CRT emulation.

Then the idea struck me that assuming you could program in C++ which I can not, You would only need the video assets and this could be strung together and as I said default version for instance technicolor Theatrical version. Assuming if you wanted to then watch the special edition the Program would add the indexed asset footage and Luts and choice of sound mix so on depending on your choices. Basically it would be a better way to handle Multi-version releases with different color timings alternate footage and so on… Rather than 7 disc set or something. Like BLaderunner would also work well in this format or perhaps Close encounters of the third kind.

Basically the idea was based around the video assets and an engine doing real-time rendering for either Luts and perhaps light emulation.

Funnily after looking at the software on the internet I ended up on a job where a touch screen presentation demo was using Unity3D in 4K for a Medial company. This consisted of an idle video loop and content that could be selected via the touchscreen that would give you various information. It was quite effects heavy and I did notice some stuttering issues but that could be in the code not the actual player but The point is it’s not so much branching but providing you have the video assets you can basically combine your video assets in a different way to branching you could just have a config I would assume for your video assets and then depending on your selection it would then add Luts effects and video assets you selected say from a programmed in menu selection for the film. It is all theoretical but yes it is possible and like I said perhaps a peek into the future?

as soon as 50GB SD cards show up it’s only a matter of time…

Can you lock Framerate?
https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Video.VideoPlayer-frameRate.html

Seems to be read only so assuming you prepare the video assets to be conformed this should I assume eliminate frame rate differences.

I read also you can play video in Retroarch but it’s a bit clunky…

Anyway It’s too complicated for me, but an idea none the less. Here are some screens of trying to emulate a more Home video & CRT look in Lightworks LNR I used a box blur and a glow.

So anyway that is the experiment so far. One on the Later widescreen CRT TV’s will do hey? I think that the box blur and glow make it far less flat and add more luminosity so yeah any suggestions?

Post
#1215438
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

So here is an interesting idea and perhaps a sort of peek in to the future, take a bit off a deep breath hear me out…

Ok so looking at the problems something like star wars faces being that there are so many different versions and sound mixes alternate footage and so on, and also the problem of trying to experience the film with new technology but wanting to still have say a crt quality a 35mm quality a home video quality or even say a 16mm quality.

I think I may have come up with a possible way to combine everything into a single release with an option to even make your own custom version.

I was looking at a game engine called unity3D and this game engine can handle video luts and shaders and i would imagine any form of programmed branching being an engine and I would also assume subtitle text.

So the premise of this radical idea is to have a default version perhaps say original Theatrical Technicolor Star Wars. This would be ported into a the game engine from here after it has been programmed You could simply check a box and this would apply a number of Luts to make it 16mm Star wars Check another box and it would be Star Wars Special edition. You might want to mix and match the theatrical version and the special edition by checking boxes for individual scenes that you wish included or removed You could chose a preffered sound mix subtitles and extra emulation effects such as CRT mode 35mm Projection Mode or standard modern LED/LCD.

Anyway Video ported and run in game engines could be an interesting way things could move forward and I don’t personally relish the old Laserdisc Arcade Games like firefox or dragons lair they were fun but pretty awful, but this is simply a way of giving more options and a better framework to some of the more absolute classic releases for which perhaps there could be a reasonable budget to produce such a thing.

Good concept? Let me know what you think of this possibility of the scope to running video in a game engine such as Unity3D and the flexibility and of such an release and also how much fun you could have with it?

The best delivery metod for something like this is either downloadable or solid state cartridges not discs as it is a more complex. Like sngular app for a multiple version film.

Post
#1215157
Topic
STAR WARS: EP IV 2004 <strong>REVISITED</strong> ADYWAN *<em>720p HD VERSION NOW IN PRODUCTION</em>
Time

They get in through the side and it blasts out downward, so I reckon tunnel matte too now.

The Door is on the right of the ring.

On Joe Johnston art the left.

It would make more sense to see the moon pass by the window than that star destroyer spinning given their trajectory but yeah try to make sense of the escape pod a bit. I guess the window is not on the front of the Pod> The impossible escape pod!!!

Square Window…

Alternate dialogue?

Interestingly, the novelization doesn’t include this line “The damage does not look as bad from out here”. Instead, 3PO asks R2 if he’s sure he knows how to pilot the escape pod.

Anyway a bit of fun 😃

I Imagine we were meant to be treated to a window shot with the “that’s funny the damage does not looks as bad from out here” then Blast off escape pod.

EDIT MARK AS SOLVED.

The Tunnel Matte is Missing from the Blast Off.

The trailer features a still matte version of the shot with better detail and color and it would be the still version that the tunnel matte is missing from I imagine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_1T4ilm8M

This is a bit shorter and misses an animation on the ring part but nothing that could not be easily fixed.

The following Shot of Escape Pod flying on from the underbelly does not Belong in the sequence this was taken from the escape Pod that is destroyed sequence before the Tantive get’s clamped in.

The Round Window is correct the booster part of the Pod has separated / detached and is travelling to tattooine in a similar fashion to that of an Apollo Capsule cone up heat shield to the atmosphere,

The Blue Screen Hatch we see on the crashed escape Pod on Tattooine is missing the Matte for the Round window and circular frame port.

Post
#1215147
Topic
STAR WARS: EP IV 2004 <strong>REVISITED</strong> ADYWAN *<em>720p HD VERSION NOW IN PRODUCTION</em>
Time

Yeah I kalidescoped the edges but I also not sure if it should be a tunnel type so yeah???

I would imagine this is a missing matte painting of some description though… It would be better to find out what it was meant to be and go from there… Perhaps a storyboard?

Same as film but in 4:3 although it does look more tunnel like in the Joe Johnston art.

The Pod is Back to front in the Joe Johnston Art…

Post
#1215131
Topic
STAR WARS: EP IV 2004 <strong>REVISITED</strong> ADYWAN *<em>720p HD VERSION NOW IN PRODUCTION</em>
Time

Been looking at the start of Star Wars and I had an idea…

Original

Idea

Not saying you should do this exactly and it’s only a rough mock up job, but I felt it was perhaps the sort of thing that might be up your street?

So anyway you get the idea, hope you like the premise of it, and well It does make one wonder if there was some sort of background or optical composite that was meant to fill in the black bit?

hope it’s all going well…

Whoops just read you not taking suggestions but anyway there it is… Wondering if something was meant to go there?

Post
#1215108
Topic
StarWarsLegacy.com - The Official Thread
Time

There seems to be an obvious answer in all this that is very sensible and also everyone wins in some way…

I think Mike may have finally found the solution to “I want”, “you want”, “we want” ok rip up the contracts let’s do this!

It’s a fair call on the cat and mouse play, well done!

Going back last year some conference, there was a guy from Sony going on about 4k and HDR and stuff and where things are headed for home video. I said to him “But like a lot of these films don’t look the same anymore…” He said “oh it’s just a bit of fun” so there you have it, a bit of fun. Well perhaps you can give them a better version of serious fun 😉

Post
#1214645
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

when the door explodes…

The Raw Footage is yellow like home video and the walls are colored by this.

It’s way off in the Blu-ray but it’s still more pink /white in the print.

So i then sort of assumed that I could lump the flash frames in also as the same sort of color difference is present or it’s equal.

The Yellow is within the white part. And also when the door initially sparks this is also yellow in bluray very magenta in the print white / pink.

This is why I was also asking for frames or screen caps from technidisc version as it resembles the technicolor print.

Post
#1214536
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

that clip is actually in the first post and that is kind of what sets my barometer needle swinging over to confirming 'it is" yellow in reality and the home video versions were more correct for these flash frames extreme highlights luminosity and explosions.

But they are not as accurate for the prints overall color that I think is correct.

Post
#1214430
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

wow that sounds promising…

Render the whole 1996 Bonis Dvd would be interesting indeed under those effects.

But I will check it out, I tried to get to grips with avisynth but failed miserably probably need a front end gui for it. Virtual dub was putting squigly lines on video clips but apparently there is a new virtualdubmod out so i might try it through that.

The appealing part to my mind in those features is the shadow masking and phosphor effects not so much the scan lines but thanks really cool idea or experiment.

Post
#1214136
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Although I am only doing the first 5 minutes of the film…Here is a kind of description of what I am trying to achieve.

A CRT will look different from a 35mm Projector because it’s a different type of light source but it’s still more accurate than say an Back lit LED lit LCD panel which is what I have and I am sure most other people have.

So the dance of Light is totally different, it will probably never look the same on modern Technology but one has to try and capture the essence or the spirit of the dance of light with a new type of Light.

So If you simply just re-create a prints color without thinking about that dance of light it will always look wrong no matter what color it is. I am no expert on such things but perhaps I can come up with some sort of model that emulates the light on LED TV to look more like or similar to a CRT within the footage because at least that is what I remember and if you like try to prepare it better for an LED backlit panel. But either way the film lost it’s luminence so I try to put that back.

Post
#1214024
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Yeah I hear what you saying about memory, and I know the print is correct or accurate but there is something I can’t quite put my finger on.

And my thoughts lie with perhaps if it is indeed a broadcast print then how would that handle with a CRT and how would that also change the information.

The Blu ray when it comes to R2-D2 panels they won’t go the same color as the technicolor print in fact there is one shot that even if I desaturate the whole image his front part round his eye is blue and everything else is black and white.

So yeah the Blu-ray has some serious issues…

I am just pondering these variations and It might only be small, but it is signifficant enough that it’s coming over like there is something not 100% correct but say 98% correct and that’s not to say I am calling it out as wrong but it does seem that there is evidence to support that is displayed at least a certain way and that perhaps should be taken into account.

I mean I’m not bonkers but I think action is very important part of the film and It should not be overlooked even though it is a small thing ultimately.

Basically they were yellow flashes until the DVD came out in 2004… And I still had a CRT so I am wondering if it has to do with this or that as you say it’s been prepared by design for CRT or the CRT simply misinterprets highlights… But since the new 2004 it has lost the luminence that it did have in my opinion.

Either way you can’t erase 20 years of something being a certain way even if it’s wrong…

Post
#1213887
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

poita said:

Ronster said:

No my screen is fine… Let me explain. Honestly I find it interesting no hijacking.

This is the version that was on TV I do remember it vividly. I recorded this on Betamax and I just used to watch it over and over again and If I could not watch it on Betamax then I used to have an old maxwell 90 audio tape with the audio of the film on It I used to take about with a Battery powered tape deck.

So I guess what I am trying to say is this is the version I remember vividly but it was prepared a little different but it’s for want of a better word the same thing.

But the levels on the clips look like they are different. and not the right contrast, contrast much higher.

What I have been trying to do is re-create the look I remember off the TV, that version I remember. But I must admit The whole twin suns is an oddity and I am more and more sure there are 2 versions of the scene now.

Now I seen the next part where they are running this part looks fine… Seems like it has brightness issues, if you compare it to the bit where R2-D2 cross the corridor this part is perfect.

On dealing with that part in the Blu-ray was having to drop the high levels to near zero on one shot, it’s over accentuated the blu-ray or 2004. So it’s more of an inherrant problem for that part than a problem with your footage. Not your fault but it’s salvageable from what you have not in the Blu-ray though.

There is a version where the sparks around the Door are yellow and the flashes are yellow but it’s more de-saturated and this was what was on UK TV back in the day.

Ah, so a recording of the UK television broadcast that you recorded onto Betamax?
I have the U-Matic broadcast tapes here that the television stations used. I must get around to capturing them one day, it would be interesting to see what the colour is like on them.

Basically it’s like the clip here on the VHS cap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5qNMAM2dzg

But this is what I have been trying to describe, although it’s not the same and it’s not the right saturation it’s different for the flashes as you can see.

Basically what I am describing you will find something akin to what I am talking about on those tapes 😃

If those flashes were indeed purposefully done pink perhaps the UK TV uses a Raw take or un-touched.

You could probably lump the sunset shot in the same category Raw take also. But I don’t think this was on the original Betamax Broadcast I had I think it was later on this one surface similar to the release date on the Technidisc so it could be a 1990’s thing but the technicolor print has no purple on the suns on there own and the Blu-ray is the same no purple it looks like it wants to be the Raw take more than the purple version. So it must have been a new print they struck perhaps?

I remember both purple and red versions.

Manually matched Laserschwertz image closer to Technidisc.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

frank678 said:

msycamore said:

Baronlando said:

frank678 said:

Looking at the comparison shots between the GOUT and Technidisc, the GOUT looks almost like its been bleached. Is this a combination of fade and DVNR or are there other factors involved?

I was wondering if that source was turning yellow and then correcting that ended up making it kind of blah?

My DVD transfers poor white balance also contributes to making it look more yellow than the actual LD really is. I actually think the elements used was turning pink/red at this point, the telecine operator may have tried to counter this with a bit of yellow and green.

Here are a couple of frames from the 1992 VHS

http://i.imgur.com/cAYrX.png

http://i.imgur.com/GQZFw.png

If you scroll back to You_Too’s Technidisc/Gout comparisons of these two shots the VHS frames seems to fall exactly inbetween the two. It hasnt got the yellow saturation of the Technidisc (ignoring what the capture distorted for one second) but it hasnt turned as pink/red as Gout.

This is how the 1992 VHS looks on a TV screen (taken with the camera on a mobile phone) followed by how it looks from video to computer to give you an idea of the transfer change.

http://i.imgur.com/QCYO1.png

http://i.imgur.com/I8Pyj.png

Yellow & pink / red flashes in trailer for 1993 Release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riipp7KLfO4

This is grade then for 1993 Master? Blue Gamma issues.

Post
#1213879
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

No my screen is fine… Let me explain. Honestly I find it interesting no hijacking.

This is the version that was on TV I do remember it vividly. I recorded this on Betamax and I just used to watch it over and over again and If I could not watch it on Betamax then I used to have an old maxwell 90 audio tape with the audio of the film on It I used to take about with a Battery powered tape deck.

So I guess what I am trying to say is this is the version I remember vividly but it was prepared a little different but it’s for want of a better word the same thing.

But the levels on the clips look like they are different. and not the right contrast, contrast much higher.

What I have been trying to do is re-create the look I remember off the TV, that version I remember. But I must admit The whole twin suns is an oddity and I am more and more sure there are 2 versions of the scene now.

Now I seen the next part where they are running this part looks fine… Seems like it has brightness issues, if you compare it to the bit where R2-D2 cross the corridor this part is perfect.

On dealing with that part in the Blu-ray was having to drop the high levels to near zero on one shot, it’s over accentuated the blu-ray or 2004. So it’s more of an inherrant problem for that part than a problem with your footage. Not your fault but it’s salvageable from what you have not in the Blu-ray though.

There is a version where the sparks around the Door are yellow and the flashes are yellow but it’s more de-saturated and this was what was on UK TV back in the day.

Post
#1213755
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Thanks, first thing that struck me is how un-naturally over bright this is, I mean seriously I need to put sunglasses on.

The color is very good but there is no depth it looks flat as a pancake.

It looks like a series of really bright images. It does not have any step down like a levels curve it’s just all very bright as can be.

So if this was projected as I said it would drop in the mids then further in the shadow. But I seriously remember the yellow flashes not dreaming it up or anything it’s on the VHS 😃

Would you say it’s missing yellow?

The medium this has been prepared for is an old 35mm projector not a tv.

Should have called this thread hello yellow perhaps?

If I de-saturate that drop the brightness a bit up the contrast (Big jump) and add a bit yellow that is basically the VHS…