Ronster

RU.08 said:

7/18/98

Who’s idea was it to add a CGI shot of the approach to cloud city?*
Who’s idea was it to add an outake shot of Vader from Jedi to Empire?*
So who replaced Hologram Palpatine, and gave him different lines to say then? Was that the director?
Who removed the director-approved scream Luke makes?

*Yes these are made in the supposed director-approved version, but Kershner is unaware of them - he says he made “no cut changes”.

Were these really the director’s ideas, or, were they merely the studio’s ideas? The ideas of the Executive Producer?

There is music to support both the extended cloud city landing of the falcon and Boba fett’s ship so they are probably originally intended but wether they followed the original storyboards exactly??? probably not…(actually definitely not considering the background in cloud city)

But the cloud car fly through is a new idea and expanded without those shots ever being planned or concieved as they re-used music from another part of the film to try and force it in there.

not sure about those last two… I can see why they tried to retrofit the emperor but Kershner was probably thinking why does the Emperor look so different in ROTJ? and why does Luke now scream like the emperor at the end of ROTJ?

And of course what is Richard Marquaunds footage doing in my movie? The only missing footage here is a short shot that was filmed of Lando pulling Luke across the Flacon and there may have been a blast and a cockpit shot of Leia and Chewie (it’s all totals to about 4.5 seconds you can hear where the music badly cuts when Luke drops down) instead we ended up with ROTJ footage in empire strikes back a butchered soundtrack and destroyed the flow of the sequence.

There is a number of small 2-3 second special effects shots missing in the film but they are not really a massive big deal or anything. But it’s not what makes the movie great. Don’t listen to these scripted accounts from Kershner or Lucus even. If you look hard enough and study it hard enough you will find all the answers. But the special edition is way off just before the end of Empire just totally reworks the sequence and adds nothing but trouble.

Harmy said:

Cinema came way before television, so screens were big before they were small <span style=“line-height: 14.3999996185303px;”>and the content on them was crisp and detailed before it was</span> low-res and blurry. And we’re just getting closer to having the same thing at home. At least that’s my personal point of view.

It’s actually starting to tip the other way in many cases you have a better picture at home than in the cinema.

The new Laser projectors will sort that out soon enough so it will be on Par with what you have at home probably not better but it will be a good match.

CatBus said:

The reason there’s no similar community trash-talking Paul McCartney’s albums (I agree, BTW), is that good-quality recordings of the Beatles that people love are widely available, so there’s no community of similarly frustrated Beatles fans to do it.

“Live and Let Die” by Wings was fantastic what are you talking about?

you used to say… Live and Let Live

you know you did, you know you did, you know you diiiieed

What about Rupert and the frog song anyone?

Sevb32 said:

I know, I just feel bad for some of you, I guess it’s my fault for bothering to read this forum, but it seems to suck the life out of everything, that so many will seem to hate or gripe no matter what is done to try to appease them. Like I said it seems as if some would have to be handed all the decision making to be pleased. Then there would still be people critical of those choices somewhere. Guess I must realize this forum is only a tiny fraction of the entire fanbase.

This is not the truth and you know it.

I will speak for myself personally and not for anyone else… But I think the general consensus is that the life has already been sucked out of star wars trilogy with the special editions and then the PT.

I want it all back and more, and that is it really. I want to see the original films restored and special editions we can be proud of.

As for the prequel trilogy I don’t really know what can be done about it and I gave up caring. Not my cup of tea.

Let’s keep our fingers crossed for the new films I hope they will be good!

I will finish what you started!

lol

Show em how it’s done!

Right here is how I feel about this subject.

STAR WARS.

Not a bad effort for a special edition but the obvious things to leave alone was Han shooting first and god the Jabba scene was awful. Horribe comedy Jawa falling of the dinosaur.

I really dislike the take off shot of the x-wings on yavin also it should have just put the temple in the background and showed the x-wings launching in the distance bad decision and composition on that.

Deleted scenes were included although they were not terrific.

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

Now people actually say this is the best special edition… well perhaps it is the least harmful version but it is total nonsense in most cases.

I don’t mind it but it does very little to restore anything that was actually planned, shot or written by Irwin Kershner, Kasdan, John Williams or even George Lucus himself. So I think it’s weird in that regard but it’s not awful but again it was altered away from anything that was originally intended in most cases.

The actual composition of the sound mix feels strange carried over from the original and this should have been a major factor when doing a special edition also some things were addressed but most of the terrible errors in there were glazed over. Horrible audio changes too that were not needed.

Considering it was the film that was also plagued by having to be rushed at the end of production, it’s the film of the original trilogy that most needed a special edition but with Kershner at the helm. No deleted scenes were included.

RETURN OF THE JEDI

The Most stupid changes and the most crap musical number replacement.

Oola was a good addition in the Rancor pit

Sarlac Pit got screwed over

Darth Vader got Screwed over.

Again no material was added that was planned, shot or written at the time the film was made, it was only altered away from what it was originally meant to be with no deleted scenes of any worth apart from a few snippets.

I think the moral of this story generally tends to fall into the category of. It’s fine to do an alternative cut but don’t supress the original version and if you are going to do an alternative cut it has to have something that was originally planned to be in the movie like some deleted scenes or with cuts or re-arrangements that actually improve the flow not a bunch of new ideas that generally hinder them. One or two new ideas don’t hurt if it’s subtle but they are not subtle in most cases and I think on the whole poorly executed.

Bingowings said:

I’m kind of hoping now that Rogue One becomes it’s own series.
It could cover the gap between the OT movies and then some of the period after.

do you think as Rougue one is set before A new Hope (Star Wars)

will the Han Solo film be set before Empire Strikes Back? (That bounty Hunter we Ran in to… Blah blah / evacuating the base at Yavin)

3rd spin off film to be set between Empire and Jedi? Actually there is really not any space between Empire and Jedi so where would it be set after ROTJ?

doubleofive said:

With all-new Cloud City mattes, your concerns are probably already taken care of.

 By and Large yeah, I think you have done fantastic work on this film from what I have seen. I love this project it's my favourite Fan project.

I just don't want you to get caught out on trusting everything you see to be the real deal.

Not everything is as it seems in Empire Strikes Back, It's not that we are looking at massively different end result in the Theatrical cut or Special Edition.

But some things are twisted and you can not trust everything in this film. Basically don't ever trust anything about this.

yeah, but if we are looking down on the platform, look at the original shot (1st pic) I posted (with the workprint rough cut matte painting may I add) we would not yet see the underside of the back part of Slave 1 where the guns are as it is still below the horizon line.

Which means if the angles were correct then Slave 1 just went past the horizon line in the background it was originally meant to sit in.

If the element was shot to go in that background in the film Slave 1 would have to be higher up in the image for that to be possible because we are looking down.

Basically Slave 1 is too low down. But if you have it higher up in the image with some depth of field in it like the Falcon arrival shot it would sort the angles out.

The thing about it that, I can't wrap my head around at this time is all the little breadcrumbs George has left scattered and even go as far as to give clues. If it had not have been for the special edition shot in the corridor of Slave 1 and that he left this background un-special editioned in the falcon arrival I would never have worked this out. So I think it's all a bit weird, but I think George is sitting on a different version now that much I am sure of. 

I have noticed something about the matte and elements regarding the Slave 1 take off shot. It's not a suggestion for you to do anything about it but I will try to make it as easy as possible to understand.

The angles of the camera on the Slave 1 element and the actual background it is in don't match up they are impossible angles the platform itself is the culprit here not so much the background objects. the matte painting is looking down on the platform and the Slave 1 element is shot to work so that you would see it rise from a perspective of being underneath it (as it pitches.)

I have a sneaky suspicion that the background matte and angles in the shot below were originally intended for the Slave 1 take off obviously minus millennium falcon and live footage elements. Actually I have no idea which background was meant for which platform. but you will find the correct angles for the Slave 1 element fit's perfectly in perspective from the angles displayed below. 

So I think they intended on re-using this view (before the camera pans down) for the Slave 1 take off shot.

Let's again be clear, I am not suggesting you do anything about it. But I like to figure out problems, so I just give you my conclusion. All the other matte paintings seem fairly in perspective and without any issues like this, the Slave 1 take off however is not. And I have noticed some chopping and changing of it's composition for revisited. I just try and tell you what I can see is going on.

I hope that is helpful to you even if it's done and dusted. this is the last thing I feel that is left to cover of things with perspective issues.

The other question it raises is was there ever a live footage element shot for Chewie and Leia on the Platform? I hope one day we will find out... My cogs have been churning on this for a couple of weeks on and off. And this is the best I can give you.

Those 2 matte paintings that were used for the falcon take off and Slave 1 take off I think were just place holder matte paintings the drop in quality is very noticeable.

Watching the trailer on face value it seems like a good fun and exciting movie to watch. And It's got a draw you in feel.

A bit or a small glimpse of the characters but although they don't want to give too much away, at least we got to see a small portion of acting, but nothing that really stood out as amazing acting or particularly emotional.

The action does look great... That hyperspace tunnel really did it for me, nice update there.

I'm confident it's going to be good, but I am still left wondering what the acting is going to be like in it. I'm not that worried but I just want to get a feel of the characters a bit more.

Well they seem very keen on teasing, I am just hoping it will be out of that teaser phase after this new trailer get's released and we can grasp a bit more about it.

I am excited but I hope the teaser phase is over as of trailer release and they don't continue to pursue this style, too many dangling carrots.

This new trailer better have a bit of meat and potatoes in it. I'm sick the short sudden shots that really give you very little indication for the film is like.

I don't mind what they have released up until now but if it is yet another bunch of snippets laced together, I will not be buying a ticket until I hear a review as it's starting to feel a bit misleading of what this film really is. I don't mind surprises and I don't want the plot handed to me on a plate in a trailer. But I want to see a few actors acting with one another not constantly seeing people with furrowed brows and panting in a cold sweat.

Only Luke and Vader together were strong enough to defeat the emperor.

I'll try and help answer that for you, if I am wrong someone please correct me.

ESB:R Is not out yet. Star Wars Revisited is 720 x 576 on the DVD-9 release, which was the final release.

There is no MKV release for Star Wars Revisited as far as I am aware it is x-vid (avi), and DVD-5 and DVD-9.

http://swrevisited.wordpress.com/anhr-change-list/

Exactly my thoughts too.

Well it could have been different, Luke's Hand crawling of it's own accord... I bet they thought about Vaders Hand doing that too.

Close...

Although this is a crude edited image... In this shot that comes directly before the shot of Vader was meant to originally have Tie Fighters but the Falcon does the cool loop turn as a way of losing their pursuers. 

So Lando's line now makes sense "What about those fighters?"

After this shot when Vader says "Bring My Shuttle" the Anger is to reflect that he has just learned that the others have escaped and are being chased and just been out smarted again. Vader is going to catch them himself. Now the Anger makes sense.

The only thing left that does not make any sense is that George said "I wanted to go back and finish the films"

In Empire Strikes Back Vader very clearly says that he "Plans to Rule the Galaxy and defeat the emperor" and asks Luke to Join him.

Luke resists but plays it off against Vader in the throne room that he would join him but not on the dark side. So it was really a trap that was set for the emperor and not so much about Luke Facing Vader.

Vader became practically a half good guy at the end of Empire Strikes Back.

The only conflict was joining the darkside but Luke manages to Bring Vader to his senses. Although the emperors hopes were resting in Luke destroying Vader.

brash_stryker said:

Actually cutting and moving footage around is extremely basic and would be boring to watch. Especially with Empire, which isn't being moved around at all.

 A Special Feature though with storyboards and perhaps muted audio could make for some interesting special features about how the film was changed / altered before final cut.

Star Wars Revisited "Ben's Hut" was the best edit in a way because it was put back to how it was originally written and it turned out to be an improvement that was much better before it was interfered with and edited out of sequence.

Although Revisited was edited amazingly well, this really grabbed me about how much better the sequence was once it was put back. I am strictly talking about shots within a sequence not scene orders.

John Doom said:

TESB has a very peculiar structure: for example, every scene begins with our heroes making progress, but always ends with the omen of a new danger. Because of this, I think General Veers's death was cut mostly because it would've made the Rebels look victorious, breaking the structure.

Very peculiar structure in some places I could not agree with more...

It all depends on which order the scenes were originally shot in and how they were edited afterwards.

But you are right about always presenting a new danger but also suicide crashing kamikaze style is not victorious or a battle won, it's a very desperate means and no doubt would have been portrayed as "Hobbie" Sacrificed himself to save others.

In ROTJ the original idea was portrayed as a victorious moment in a battle though. The pilot sacrificed himself to destroy the Super Star Destroyer which in turn saves lives but it was also not made to feel totally deliberate as he was spinning out of control. Hobbie Slammed the AT-AT with intent knowing he was going to die.

This is the sort of mood you could expect afterwards.

There is something else I also want to add in about the actual End result that we saw the shield generator being destroyed rather than general veers death. Although the shield generator destruction is a check mate move the base was still vulnerable to attack because every time they wanted to shoot the ion canon and let the transports escape they had to open the shields so general veers death was more of an important plot point than the shield generator destruction. But i think both the plot points are valid. 

hairy_hen said:

The reason it sounds wrong is because the tone of the voice for that line has no similarity at all to the rest of the stormtrooper dialog.  It breaks the sense of continuity and immersion, and jars you right out of the scene.

I remember the snowspeeder crashing into the AT-AT from the novelization of ESB.  The presence of such a scene certainly explains why General Veers disappears from the rest of the movie (since he is apparently dead), as well as why there is a shot of the walker's cockpit blowing up when Luke throws a grenade into it—this shot was meant to have been used for the scene that got cut.

Interesting also is that the rebel pilot named Hobbie is the one who crashed into Veers' walker, killing himself in the process.  Hobbie shows up in various post-RotJ novels, beginning with the Thrawn trilogy, since Zahn and other writers didn't know that he was supposed to have died in a deleted scene.  I seem to recall also hearing that General Rieekan was supposed to die in the battle as well, which would explain why he's nowhere to be seen in that last scene in the command center and Leia is the only one left in charge.  Well, guess who shows up in post-RotJ novels?

The story of ESB certainly is somewhat different when you take all the deleted material into account.  The entire dynamic of the relationship between the three main characters changes drastically if the part in the medical center where Luke and Leia almost make out before Han shows up is considered valid.

 Yeah I think General Rieekan was meant to get crushed underneath something that fell on him.

I wonder if they ever filmed this scene. It would have added more gravitas to Leia taking up the reins of commander in his absence to co-ordinate the evacuation and putting herself in danger for others.. Although it comes across well enough that she was putting herself in danger it's not really explained that she was doing something far more noble after Rieekan snuffed it.

At the end of the day the main Story is intact with a few details missed out, that does not hurt it in any great way but when you add all the deleted material together I doubt you are talking any more than 5 minutes when edited back in. Because most deleted scenes should truly remain deleted. But there is a few that stand out from the crowd

one could argue that the probe droid sub plot of detecting the Snow speeders while they were searching for Han & Luke is a much needed scene to explain how the probe droid was led to Echo Base and that it attacked outpost Beta on the way to the shield generator and at that point the Rebels became aware of the visitor. That sounds quite a lot in terms of footage but it really is no longer than probably 60 seconds for that subplot keeping the Probe droid hibernating and the Probe Droid killing a Wampa very firmly deleted because it adds nothing to the films plot. 

The Han & Leia extended kiss on the falcon is by far the best deleted scene for ESB in my opinion.

Followed by the Repairs scene where they hear the bombs dropping.

And probably the never seen footage of Lando pulling Luke across the falcon SFX shot.

That is about as far as my list goes for deleted scenes Including Veers death also and a few never created Special effects scenes perhaps a couple of snippets here and there. It really amounts to no more than 5 minutes probably of worth while material. General Rieekans death was probably a shot of him already dead (4 seconds) then cut to K3-PO impaled. It's really not all that much missing.

Why is Vader so angry when he says "Bring My shuttle"?

There is an answer and only one answer... it has nothing to do with Luke, well it is sort of connected with Luke in a way, but not directly about him.

What if TFA is awful?

Go and see "In the Heart of the Sea" instead by Ron Howard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7kxxhU9jyA

Is that a good enough answer for your question?

Well quite a few people die in the end result of the suicide crash... More in ROTJ I suppose.

I think I do recall general Veers death in a script now coming to think of it but it was after he speaks to Vader on the Hologram "You may start your landing" and then gets blown up by the snow speeder collision. and the whole targeting the shield generator was not present at that time.

Any way it must have been a big debate on the scenes inclusion that I think we can be sure of and ultimately It was chopped out the film.

But the deleted scene shows it with the targeting the shield generator shot so they must have changed it... Can't really remember and I am a bit tired right now.