Ronster

well perhaps i got confused with which one was which then…

Basically I just want a version that is kind on the eye and if you take for instance enter the dragon what it looked like and what it looks like now it is a vast improvement. This has never really happened for star wars though and there should be a version that does sort the way it looks out.

Well it has in a way but it still has a way to go.

https://youtu.be/tqVk9LB-LZo

No i did not… R2 looks a bit Cyan but othetwise I reallh like the JSC.

I just saw a comparison clip on youtube of going in to mos eisley of JSC and I think it was blu ray.

Although people say it is the wrong color the JSC and I think it probably is actually on a lot of scenes if looks very good sometimes where other versions fail and seems to throw a solution again and again for odd looking shots. It’s very likeable and kind on the eye. And it does not have people generally with bright pink faces.

It’s not a monstrosity at all. Anyway time to sleep now.

We should look at wether we can recover more color from the special effects. You need to be more open minded it is a nice thing to do not nasty.

ZigZig said:

Ronster, are you trolling? (I’m just asking)

No not at all, I honestly like the older transfers better and I do also think that the special effects are screwing up the film color but there is also smaller problems with the footage in general.

when I worked with enter the dragon, I started learning color correction with a nightmare scenario. Star Wars i consider another nightmare scenario but perhaps both worse ( Special effects) but better (normal film footage).

So this is my opinion perhaps I am wrong to like the way the old transfers looked. I would like to see an improved version of the old transfer with Special effects color better.

Yotsuya I will try that later when I find time. Thanks, I have used that before but not with my new screen.

I don’t really want to spend £100 or more for the calibration device and what I was hoping was that if I do just some rough versions people would pick up on the general sense of direction.

I do understand though what is being said but I was really hoping that it would be a bit simpler in interpreting roughly i was trying to communicate.

At work at the moment waiting to do something but If i get one I will try to get a cheap one because I really don’t see too much worth in roughly looking at something and trying to communicate where I feel the faults may be for £100.

Can you see my point on that?

I kind of feel that budget to communicate with some still images is fairly high priced when I would also still not be saying this is exactly how it should look but trying to find guiding principles or patterns.

I have used those calibration sensors before, but only when I have had to put up a video walls to make all the screen match up as say 9 screens (3x3) make a whole image and it is important that every screen match. If you say have dual projection it is again important you have matching images (especially if you are blending which I don’t really get involved in but I might put the projectors in) I understand you are trying to tell me that calibrating my monitor may change things slightly about my screen but that it is not that important unless you have the same screen as me as different screens will display an image differently. Even if I Calibrate my display it will still look different on yours to mine unless you have a very similar panel.

There is a bit of a futility to such things as my monitor is not part of your image nor is your monitor part of my image.

It’s not particularly important for this exercise because for some of the special effects and the highlights are quite a way off where they should be anyway, so It’s more important that it goes in the right general direction more than anything else, as it’s way off anyway.

This is an effort that know is good in a way but I don’t feel it’s really all the way there yet. I think it is overdone but I was trying to pull as much out so this would be scaled back. Degraded Highlights very bad here.

Quick test of dusk sky… This is again not too great I feel. But Possibly again degraded highlights.

This is a fairly good reference for the Command center though.

Rebel Clock - Just realised that the rim should be Yellow not Blue it’s missing a lot of red and yellow in the shadow. I hued the green for the reference but adjusting the color in the shadow will bring the green patch to that color so it’s a mistake on my part. Again obvious animation color error I suppose.

Should be like this one not the cyan color one…

A look at the Highlights vs trying to bring more yellow in to Han’s shirt. Special Effects probably removing far too much color from image. Hard to get anything from this but the hues were more conformed on the explosion. Looked at correct shade of Red also.

Did this tonight the others on Sunday but just trying to figure out how hard to push it. It needs a harder push in general but I think this is about the limit. I would use Bias saturation decrease on this slightly perhaps decrease by about 2-3% just to thin out R2 cyan dome and pink clouds. Good Brightness and saturation.

ZigZig said:

Ronster said:

You would do well to look at other films say like Bullitt to see what a film should look like

You’re so right: Yotsuya doesn’t know how a film should look like. That’s because he has a calibrated monitor (such a mistake). He is a newbie. Luckily you’re here.

He has failed to understand what I am looking at. I don’t feel the same rules apply to the special effects shots as to the normal footage for the simple reason that the special effects make the image look different from the rest. It was quite a simple thing I am looking at and I have had to explain over and over and over again and he still does not understand.

I am also lookingcat degraded highlights also.

Sorry but having to keep repeating that is getting on my nerves, and also I am only just roughly having a look at it and a quick guess because it is all I have time for and I have also explained this but I keep getting loads of stuff thrown at me for which I was never saying ok this is the gospel of the star wars color religion which is what it feels like around here. I was just having a rough guess and if you disagree I am fine with it, but nobody is saying anything about how they think the special effects are altering things which they clearly are and it is just like talking to a load of people who can not see past their own nose.

yotsuya said:

Ronster said:

yotsuya said:

First off, when trying to find the original look, there are some big clues and some sources that we have that are pretty good. First off is the technicolor print. While some of the shots look horrible in it, the overall look preserves the 1977 colors. Second, we have the home media versions, the 1997 special edition (which is mostly chemical color correction of a faded print for ANH and is the same negative) and its home media versions. Then we have the 2003 scan (as bad as it is). Plus we have an LLP 35 mm print (that means low fade and accurate colors.

Now, for the home media version of the GOUT, we have a few different sources. We have the US/UK sources for early releases. the US 16 mm film and the widescreen bookleg (preserved by Moth3r) appear to be from the original version of the film (4 things were changed from the early prints to the general release print and international prints made later in the year). The official VHS and LD versions that came out after that all have the Episode IV opening and the revised end credits, but the rest of the film appears to be also from the 1977 first release prints. All the foreign language and the Definitive Edition/Faces/2006 GOUT version all are from the same edit. We know that the Definitive Edition/Faces/2006 GOUT was done from a new interpositive struck in the mid 80’s. Then we have the SE and its VHS and LD release. First off, the colors of all these are very consistent. I have focused only on the widescreen versions so I can’t say how the pan and scan versions looked. Not really interested. The widescreen versions have very little color difference between them. That means there was not a lot of tweaking by the telecine operators to the colors on a scene by scene basis.

I took the GOUT and made one assumption - the orange tint of the interpositive had not been completely removed. That was pretty common in transfers. I used the accurate scans of the technicolor print (every 24th frame provided by Mike Verta and corrected for the green tint) and corrected the GOUT. I used the same corrections to TESB and ROTJ and found my corrections to ROTJ pretty much matched the colors of the grindhouse 35 mm scan of ROTJ. So the color pallet I’m trying to match has strong source corroboration. Plus I have researched and found as many set photos as I could and referenced the behind the scenes images from the Making of Star Wars.

DrDre has used more scientific means to come to virtually the same colors. He has found a way to use the dark, unseen parts of the print to balance the colors and correct fading. He and I have come to nearly the same conclusion by different means. Poita does this sort of thing for a living and has his own methods. So for you to tell all three of us that we are off and your are right when you obviously aren’t using a calibrated monitor and are using scanned stills from printed sources (and from what you have shared some of them are pretty bad), that doesn’t aid your cause.

Skin tones need to be that prefect balance between red and yellow. The X-wing flight suits are bright orange. The Imperial uniforms are green gray. R2 is cobalt to indigo (with some shots in ANH of a more purple colored version). These aren’t my opinions. They are documented. I have photos that show the colors of the original costumes. You are slanting your correction way too far to the yellow. These latest shots show very crushed blacks. The Blu-ray is not that far off.

Here is the collected versions of that shot of Luke you claim is so far off.

Top left is my BR color correction. Top right is my GOUT correction
second row is the BR and the GOUT
third row is 97 SE LD and the DE LD
fourth row is 4k77 DNR and the JSC LD
fifth row is the TN1 (1.5 I think) and the SWE LD
sixth row is Puggo Grande and Moth3r bootleg

This shows how consistent the home video releases are for this shot. It shows how close the BR is. The 4k77 is from a Technicolor print so it shows the greenish tint. TN1 is from several faded prints and is pretty close to the home video colors. The bottom two are of the most interest. They are the oldest known copies. Other shots in ANH are not nearly so close between versions. So your hypothesis that this shot suffers badly from color shift is not born out. The home video versions are either faded prints or from interpositives. TN1 was from a faded print (very red as I recall). The 97 SE LD shows very blue instead of green. The blu-ray is lacking in yellow rather than just too much red. Each of the RGB/CYM colors fades differently on film. So it is no surprise that they didn’t get the balance right during the restoration. But your idea that the colors have shifted doesn’t match the various prints/scans we have.

The JSC Laserdisc Looks by far the Best in fact I would say TN1 tried to go for that sort of also but the JSC looks about right to me. The Blu Ray is Horrid Pink man. Red is in the correct Shade of Red. Look at his Helmet stripe in the JSC.

The Gain and Levels are all wrong on the Blu-ray.

Drop Gain for Blu-Ray by by 33% increase High level by 50% and Shadow by 13%. You will have to alter contrast also. That seemed to bring it sort of back to a normal looking old transfer at least.

I am now waiting for this is a telecine and it’s not what it’s meant to look like. The JSC is better than anything else there and outshines the lot. Anything lesser that the Peak that the JSC reached we are heading downhill after this high point in so much as that particular shot never got better or was maintained even it just slid in to the pink mess it is now. And it’s also artificially bright.

So… make the bluray darker? Crush the blacks even more? Blow out the whites? Um… no. Yes, some scenes might benefit from being brighter, but contrast and brightness are one of the worst aspects of the bluray for consistency. I found the colors can be corrected in a pretty narrow range. But some shots need to be darker, some lighter, and some need to have the brights turned way up while others need it left alone. In this shot you don’t gain anything from your description. And you applaud the JSC while ignoring the reds that come from its interpositive source. The one I think is closest is the Moth3r bootleg. The bluray does not need what you think it does and doing what you suggest creates a horrible image. I’m assuming your description of gain, high and shadow is what you did to all the images you posted that look so dark and terrible. That is what the copy of a copy of a copy of Gone With the Wind looked like before they restored it. Again it comes down to a good calibrated monitor. You definitely need one.

I like working to be honest, but I work a lot of hours. I obviously don’t have the same amount of time you have.

I liked Laserschwets special edition trailer scan. There was something good about it.

no I did not do that to all the images. The thing you fail to understand is that every image I posted in the last set are Special effects or animation shots apart from the last image. The last image was to show you what I was bringing it closer to.

The shots with animation and special effects stink of problems from the process they went through. Is it wrong to look at them and make a rough estimate and then you come in here and start slagging off a rough estimate.

You would do well to look at other films say like Bullitt to see what a film should look like because you seem to have too much emotional involvement with Star Wars and you don’t understand what I am even doing and you can’t even take somone having a rough guess and trying to figure out how the special effects have altered the image.

The way you are going on you are trying to make it sound like I am msking outlandish statements about the special effects and how they have altered the image. Jusg take a look at any one of the shots that have blue / purple all over them.

Uou are really starting to get on my nerves because you don’t understand what I am looking at. If you don’t understand still now after telling you 3 times forget about it.

yotsuya said:

First off, when trying to find the original look, there are some big clues and some sources that we have that are pretty good. First off is the technicolor print. While some of the shots look horrible in it, the overall look preserves the 1977 colors. Second, we have the home media versions, the 1997 special edition (which is mostly chemical color correction of a faded print for ANH and is the same negative) and its home media versions. Then we have the 2003 scan (as bad as it is). Plus we have an LLP 35 mm print (that means low fade and accurate colors.

Now, for the home media version of the GOUT, we have a few different sources. We have the US/UK sources for early releases. the US 16 mm film and the widescreen bookleg (preserved by Moth3r) appear to be from the original version of the film (4 things were changed from the early prints to the general release print and international prints made later in the year). The official VHS and LD versions that came out after that all have the Episode IV opening and the revised end credits, but the rest of the film appears to be also from the 1977 first release prints. All the foreign language and the Definitive Edition/Faces/2006 GOUT version all are from the same edit. We know that the Definitive Edition/Faces/2006 GOUT was done from a new interpositive struck in the mid 80’s. Then we have the SE and its VHS and LD release. First off, the colors of all these are very consistent. I have focused only on the widescreen versions so I can’t say how the pan and scan versions looked. Not really interested. The widescreen versions have very little color difference between them. That means there was not a lot of tweaking by the telecine operators to the colors on a scene by scene basis.

I took the GOUT and made one assumption - the orange tint of the interpositive had not been completely removed. That was pretty common in transfers. I used the accurate scans of the technicolor print (every 24th frame provided by Mike Verta and corrected for the green tint) and corrected the GOUT. I used the same corrections to TESB and ROTJ and found my corrections to ROTJ pretty much matched the colors of the grindhouse 35 mm scan of ROTJ. So the color pallet I’m trying to match has strong source corroboration. Plus I have researched and found as many set photos as I could and referenced the behind the scenes images from the Making of Star Wars.

DrDre has used more scientific means to come to virtually the same colors. He has found a way to use the dark, unseen parts of the print to balance the colors and correct fading. He and I have come to nearly the same conclusion by different means. Poita does this sort of thing for a living and has his own methods. So for you to tell all three of us that we are off and your are right when you obviously aren’t using a calibrated monitor and are using scanned stills from printed sources (and from what you have shared some of them are pretty bad), that doesn’t aid your cause.

Skin tones need to be that prefect balance between red and yellow. The X-wing flight suits are bright orange. The Imperial uniforms are green gray. R2 is cobalt to indigo (with some shots in ANH of a more purple colored version). These aren’t my opinions. They are documented. I have photos that show the colors of the original costumes. You are slanting your correction way too far to the yellow. These latest shots show very crushed blacks. The Blu-ray is not that far off.

Here is the collected versions of that shot of Luke you claim is so far off.

Top left is my BR color correction. Top right is my GOUT correction
second row is the BR and the GOUT
third row is 97 SE LD and the DE LD
fourth row is 4k77 DNR and the JSC LD
fifth row is the TN1 (1.5 I think) and the SWE LD
sixth row is Puggo Grande and Moth3r bootleg

This shows how consistent the home video releases are for this shot. It shows how close the BR is. The 4k77 is from a Technicolor print so it shows the greenish tint. TN1 is from several faded prints and is pretty close to the home video colors. The bottom two are of the most interest. They are the oldest known copies. Other shots in ANH are not nearly so close between versions. So your hypothesis that this shot suffers badly from color shift is not born out. The home video versions are either faded prints or from interpositives. TN1 was from a faded print (very red as I recall). The 97 SE LD shows very blue instead of green. The blu-ray is lacking in yellow rather than just too much red. Each of the RGB/CYM colors fades differently on film. So it is no surprise that they didn’t get the balance right during the restoration. But your idea that the colors have shifted doesn’t match the various prints/scans we have.

The JSC Laserdisc Looks by far the Best in fact I would say TN1 tried to go for that sort of also but the JSC looks about right to me. The Blu Ray is Horrid Pink man. Red is in the correct Shade of Red. Look at his Helmet stripe in the JSC.

The Gain and Levels are all wrong on the Blu-ray.

Drop Gain for Blu-Ray by by 33% increase High level by 50% and Shadow by 13%. You will have to alter contrast also. That seemed to bring it sort of back to a normal looking old transfer at least.

I am now waiting for this is a telecine and it’s not what it’s meant to look like. The JSC is better than anything else there and outshines the lot. Anything lesser that the Peak that the JSC reached we are heading downhill after this high point in so much as that particular shot never got better or was maintained even it just slid in to the pink mess it is now. And it’s also artificially bright.

This is the corrected Tie Fighter Targeting Display Color. (Again not holy Grail of RGB) It’s a Indicator of what it is meant to look like.

Had a go at the briefing room again not holy grail of RGB but an indicator, but the display should be more turqoise in color not blue.

Display is corrected

I cheated the planet was selected separately from the rest of the shot…

An example of when R2-D2 should have more purple panels in the dark.

Enemy Fighters Coming your way…

A bit of a cushion to the shock of some of the more different moments but nonetheless it is what it is an opinion and a rough estimate either way I think there is a variance in Hue to get it to all line up these are more small compared to some of the others so let’s not take my opinion as a complete rejection of any one else’s work. But I hope you can feel this look anyway.

yotsuya said:

Okay, calibrated monitors are a must. If you haven’t done that what you are seeing is going to be wrong and your corrections are going to be wrong. There are many ways to calibrate a monitor. I do not have finely calibrated monitors, but I use 3 of them plus 2 TV’s, my phone, and a tablet. I know some lean yellow and some red, so I make sure it looks good on all of them. Also, the monitors, my phone, and my tablet I also use to check this site so I know when Dr. Dre posts an image how each of my screens displays it. Your images lean far too much to the yellow. Your image of Luke looks aweful. He is yellow orange and his jumpsuit is the same color. His face should be pinker than the jumpsuit.

With ANH blu-ray, we have a film that has badly faded over the years. It is from the original negatives (except for the composited shots). Each original shooting reel of film will fade slightly differently. So we may have a few shots that all need the same correction interspaced with other shots that need other corrections. I have been working to correct those shots as a unit and maintain consistency. But the shot of Luke you claim is so bad is actually one of the ones that is closest to the original and seems to have deteriorated the least. My correction is based on the blu-ray being so dark and trying to lighten it a bit which results in oversaturated dark areas. I have a way to fix that and tweak the color at the same time. Some shots I have to nudge the red a bit to bring it down, but what you are doing is not a nudge, it is a shove. You are using far too heavy a hand. Rather than what you are doing, you need to find what you think is the right place and then back it off. Subtle corrections are often all that is needed.

And it all starts with a calibrated monitor. You have to be using a monitor that produces colors that are accurate. If you aren’t then your correction is going to be wrong. As your correction is wrong as I and others have pointed out.

I recommend you get the 4k77 DNR version. That has very good colors (better than the non-DNR version). If you think that is off then your monitor is off or your eyes. Same with the grindhouse ROTJ. My colors are based on the sample frames Mike Verta release (every 24th frame) which hits most of the scenes and the ROTJ Gridhouse release. I used those to color correct ANH, TESB, and ROTJ GOUT and that correction is what I’m using to fix the blu-ray. I was able to apply the same correction to each of the three GOUT sources (all are taken from a set of interprositives made in the late 80’s) and have ANH and ROTJ match the 35 mm sources (adjusted for their known flaws). So when you say I did not go far enough in my correction and I look at 4k77 and my corrected GOUT and see that it is exactly where it should be, we suspect there is a flaw in your correction process. The mostly likely is your monitors. Like right now the monitor I’m using is too blue and cold. That changes what you see on the screen.

You have just clearly stated you are trying to preserve the original film.

That is however with flaws that we’re introduced.

What I am trying to establish is what might the film have looked like without the flaws that were introduced. How would it have looked? No doubt your correction looks exactly like the print.

Let’s go over it once again I like the fact that the original is preserved great job on that.

But there is room for a bit more than that, and you are not responding in terms of what you think it should “look like” but slapping clones of the print in my face. Can we accept the print looks pretty good apart from where special effects are involved (Some Instances) or not?

And Ben Kenobi in the Canyon also I may add aswell as the Rebel Control Room on Yavin is also very wrong. I have not seen the versions you speak of… I am going by what I have seen in Home Media more than anything else. I would really Like to See Neverar’s Technicolor Version but I think I will wait for his 2nd version.

I only see stills on here some I really, really like and it inspires me when I see something looking really good and others I question and kind of feel things are travelling off a bit.

To be honest I am not even using the tool I usually use, because I am trying to relax a bit because I have a lot of work on and odd hours and stuff. I need to keep a distance from concentrating too much on it tbh.

You can use selective correction, on a particular color and shift that.

But essentially It might be a bit of a slog, but with the Cockpit shot I did shift everything because that was what was needed it had all shifted.

Whatever the right tool for the job I guess, but I am not seeing these things dealt with and I would like to see someone have a go, but If everyone is using just curves then yeah it won’t really get fixed.

The Brutality of some efforts will put people off.

because it is very, very far from what other shots look like and if you say push on a particular color it is not perhaps going to bring it back to the right shade. The Hues are separated or out of kilter and it would be something that could probably be done as a final stage in varying degrees.

Why is Using Hue Alteration seen as something to not touch?

Because some parts of the film have drifted away from what it was supposed to look like. Various Reasons but typically It has problems and It would be nice to try and get it looking the best it can look.

ChainsawAsh said:

Ronster said:

please stop going on about Calibrated monitors, If everyone has these calibrated monitors and Luke still Has a pink Jumpsuit in all the Color Corrections then something must be wrong with your Calibrated monitors.

Do you think maybe there might be a reason why people keep going on about calibrating your monitor? Or why professional colorists don’t touch hue?

It has probably more to do with people not wanting to alter any hues TBH but I think it may be the only way to fix some parts. That is not a critique I just think it’s probably the only way some things can be fixed.

ZigZig said:

Well, Luke’s face seems to be orange on your corrected shot, while it has a real skin tone on Yostuya’s shot.
Also on your shot, reactor hoods are pink, even the sky contains pink tones.

But I see your point: Luke’s jumpsuit is maybe not supposed to be as pink/purple as in the BR. Unfortunately, while trying to correct his jumpsuit, you probably introduce other errors.
(Should I mention that this kind of subtile correction needs a calibrated screen?)

That is honestly fine perhaps this is a bit better?

The Point is the Hue Alteration at the end of the day and not the Color Grading. Seeing as so many people on here are doing projects, It strikes me as obvious issues that can somehow be fixed yet nobody does, because as someone else previously stated “We don’t really touch the Hue Shift”. And that is why you will always have Luke in his pink pajamas. I don’t mind that much but the point is there is something to it and I feel I have proved the point enough please stop going on about Calibrated monitors, If everyone has these calibrated monitors and Luke still Has a pink Jumpsuit in all the Color Corrections then something must be wrong with your Calibrated monitors.

It is not a competition of who’s is best at all by any means and If you think what I did looks crap then fine.

I think you actually need to find out who butchered it originally. Perhaps Luke flew back and got changed because he shat himself in his orange jumpsuit 😃 he even changed his x-wing to one with a turqoise paint job.

But that is how it looks to me and yeah it’s butchered alright. You should do a cosplay with those Pink Jumpsuit and green goggles. You will get loads of attention 😃.

Nah but seriously, It is something I would love to see fixed and at least Yotsuya had a go, and at least I had a go at it also. Perhaps there is a way to fix it perhaps there is not but all I can say is I had a go at it, I tried, and if you keep trying eventually you will get it right. Both mine and Yotsya look better than the original for doing something about it. I think Yotsuya needed to use a heavier hand though because the issue is severe.

In terms of binary Sunset this is the best I can do with it and I think it’s the only way this shot makes any sense. The purple version in the theatrical cut has serious issues. I wanted to believe there was only something small wrong with it but the Hammer has fallen and I have written it off as an error.

If there was any doubts about George Lucus intention we see it in ROTS also look nothing like in ANH and also ROTJ it looks similar in ROTJ and ROTS making Star Wars ANH the odd one out.

I will give you that it looks better… But I don’t think it quite hit’s the same mark as shifting the Hues to bring it more in line with other shots we see that are not so badly affected.

It’s things like this shot that destroy trust completely, trust in what the print displays come to a low point. That is not to say I don’t think you did a bad job of trying to tackle the issue but you did not go far enough.

It’s like a medical surgeon, our perception of a surgeon is someone that is quite careful which is true, but the reality can be very different that in order to do their job they pull people about and have to be quite rough with something to fix a major problem. Out come the Hammers and Saws to fix some things and it’s not so clinical but quite a rough and brutal process.

My process always starts out Brutal and then I reign it back in until I find the right amount of Brutal or how Brutal I should be. You said before that I over do it, which is correct, I do until I reign it back in to about the right amount.

In terms of the whole Binary Sunset I think perhaps Jabbas Palace from ROTJ might hold some answers for us.

This may mean the glow is that yellowish color and the Bottom of the sky is more Magenta which would make sense almost inverted.

If we followed this image as a guide we probably would end up with something in between the Red and the Purple Version rather than 2 very different looking versions.

So Yavin is actually Tattooine tinted more Red / Orange and Kashykk from the Holiday special was the same planet tinted green 😃

That is interesting yotsuya that you also went down this path.

Please can you show me how you have the luke in cockpit shot, if you have attempted that bit?

Yes I agree it’s not about trusting a picture book exactly. But things are relative to one another in some ways perhaps. I feel that the part that is magenta in the sky could be another color… But then what color?

I think the theatrical version lacks the greeny blue in the shadow. This i feel is correct. When it comes to the mid tones bringing out enough red to see the red on the sand is correct. But I do agree I am not sure about that tone of magenta in the sky. I like the Red Version better for the glow but I am not sure what color the glow should be. I don’t trust the prints a lot of the time and especially not for special effects and optical printers the trust is very low in most cases. I am trying to figure out what it is meant to look like not what any version looks like because they are all a bit weird on that part especially.

got this out of the Star Wars Annual 1999. The Sun on the left as I said might be supposed to be more blue than white also notice the more pink flare around the blueish sun.

So I adjusted the shot I did as a rough reference for the shot and the fixed version.

Example of Major Red Hue Shift (Red is in the total wrong shade of red)

Example of brilliant color grading but minor Red Hue shift (wrong shade of red) affecting skin tones

Color Grade and Hue Shift Result for Major Issue. All hues were shifted on this occasion the same amount.

Hue Shift Only no Color added or taken away Result 2 from Red and Blue shift only.

I think that your policy of preserve original and make more aesthetically pleasing version is the way it should be done because of the nature of the “rush job” as you put it.

The process sounds quite interesting of making notes for how the film should look and how to present it and all done on the fly. I imagine there were stalling points on things, over analysis and then coupled with vagueness perhaps. Actually sounds like a bit of a process where you need to be the guy in the room who does not say much but then also command explaination and jump in or butt in to clear up or fully understand what is being asked if things start spinning too vague.

I also a bit of a firm believer in what the “Special Edition” attempted in some ways but I think they kind of failed on quite a few of the ideas, But in essence i am not opposed to revamping something for say a new generation of people, or making minor adjustments for good reason. I agree intent can be a slippery slope, but with a film like Star Wars there is a bit of a re-gurgitation of content for which these can be simply explained easily. I would like to see all the mattes fixed and any missing optical elements put in, missing audio and couple that with a pseudo special edition that also saves more of the original miniature work whilst retaining some “updates”. So I kind of think 2 versions would do me but just not the special edition we got.

I am actually not convincdd people can still understand when a film “Color shifts” and travels off. when i get time i will post an example here.

Chewielewis said:

It’s a little inaccurate to say hue shift though.

When it comes to digital video or films grading . We don’t work in Hue we work in mostly in RGB values, contrast and saturation. It’s very rare to even touch the hue knob as it pushes everything to the right or left. Not helpful at all. (Yes there are ways to specifically alter and shift specific hues but neither the film nor the bluray likely used these techniques)

When it comes to badly regarded films it’s a case of RGB curves and saturation that makes them look so much bluer or greener or redder or magenta. Film prints don’t degrade by shifting hues, but by the RGB particles degrading at different rates.

The Death Star shot you posted. Nothing to do with hue shifts and everything to do with RGB and saturation.

yeah, I just did that quickly and being totally honest i did it from memory. So to do that not such a bad effort as I looked at the other appearance after i had changed the settings.

Either way I understand the principles of trying to get say a consistancy to something with the color, but say for that Binary Sunset shot, the Blu Ray looks really quite wrong but there is also something right about it that say the theatrical print color lacks.I also am starting to think the fake sun was meant to be blue / purple But with all this said, it seems from what you are saying that once you “shift hues” to try and maintain a consistancy you end up in a bit of an unknown wilderness which is true but it is all relative and when it does happen getting something back to a truer result is better than ignoring it and letting the physical film dictate the direction of a color shift.

Fixing a part that does travel off into a different hue I actually find the most satisfying even if it is not 100% spot on the end result will look rematkably better than you may have seen something ever before and this is where in terms of color correcting, it is I find one of the more exciting aspects and you also don’t really get those opportunities to do that sort of thing with newer films because technology is so much better and these things rarely occur today with digital film. That and most of the old films have already been fixed up.

Poita, I may have a look at one of those things you mentioned but I honestly don’t have all that much time on my hands at this time of year until December.

Well as I said there is not much I can do about it unless I get a completely new system running on HDMI 2.0 and even then If the Screen Detects it’s a PC and not a DVD player or something else who is to say it won’t grey the options out like it does now. I am sorry that my screen only allows me to do white balancing, it’s not something that is my fault, I can’t do anything to change it. But I did run eizo test and it’s not throwing up any really obvious faults.

I do feel that although there are professionals here, I am not talking about say anything particularly precise. Perhaps this is where a confusion is coming from if I say try something and post an image, I am not saying this is exactly how it should look, or that anyone should take anything I am doing literally as gospel but what I would be trying to do and when I can see that it is plainly obvious is trying to understand a bit about how this film looks quite a bit different from other films of this era actually right the way through it. On top of that you have some weird things with effects shots.

If you will poke fun at me for when films shift out on color in to a different hue. check these out off the top of my head.

1.Terminator - Tunnel Chase and end Warehouse Chase many shots Shift out this was fixed later for the special edition

2.Aliens - During our initial introduction to the “Power Loader” walking Forklift a guy is carrying a missile and put’s it in the ship. This shifted in the original transfer again this was again fixed later on in the special edition version.

3.Platoon - Straight off the opening scenes in the Jungle is a magenta mess (I don’t know if this was fixed for any recent releases but the green has probably shifted)

4.Enter the Dragon - Plenty of that going on in the original transfer which was all over the shop

I can’t think of anymore at the moment, but to think Star Wars is somehow exempt from this issue, and if you have a problem understanding that sometimes hues shift and that is why a color tool was created to actually fix these problems.

So anything I am doing I am saying “yeah, there abouts” I am not trying to come to some kind of conclusive Holy Grail of how much red and blue and green Star Wars should Have. I Just enjoy having a look at stuff and pondering things and I a fun person, I like a laugh and I can take a joke 😃

This is the original image spot the difference.

That matte element of the moon is used for the falcon approaching Yavin IV also and the two look very different this brings it closer to the better looking version assuming more correct version earlier on.

I actually also find it concerning that for all the expertise these moments are not brought up and these things are not discussed how the same thing can be so different.

oh so is the moon blue on your screen?

I am not talking about intricate or precision things though, I am talking about things that look very different from one another also.

Mainly Special effects.

Well it’s not easy to understand what the film is “Meant to look like” especially when special effects are involved as it introduces quite a lot of color that is perhaps not meant to be there, as this process was not in it’s infancy but it was still fairly new and perhaps more so the amount of layers that were being put through an optical printer.

I do have a feeling about that part being red at least the original cinematography it was. But seeing that certain parts are un-tinted it’s a bit of a patchwork quilt unless the sky should change color very differently between shots. I was exploring the possibility that it could be consistent and remain plausible light source (the Sun).

Laterally sometimes you have to understand what something looked like before special effects to understand how it has been altered after the effects process and what may have been introduced that is unintended.

Film footage is not that difficult to figure out, special effects shots are, especially this era of effects.

The only way of keeping the original matte color would be a re-composite it won’t go back and is lost in the effects process. The binary sunset is perhaps recoverable because it’s probably only one layer.

ChainsawAsh said:

If you can’t calibrate your monitor, you shouldn’t be doing any color work or commenting on anyone else’s.

I have followed these instructions, and It would seem that my panel is very Bright compared to my old TV for HDR content. So I have adjusted this now.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/mu6100/settings

I have copied the white balance in this but I can not change hardly anything because it’s running a PC and this will not allow you to have Movie mode because it only allows Standard or Dynamic modes.

This is something you should take up with Samsung to be honest.

So the original Matte has no Blue moon…

and looks nothing like the film…