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Ronster

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10-Dec-2011
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23-Jun-2018
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Post
#1213744
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

where are you from?

I am from uk never saw it in the cinema, earliest one i caught was ROTJ but like i said this whole tecnicolor look rings a bell but also the red suns and no pink full on magenta flashes. I suppose the version i cherish is the one i grew up with but honestly it’s fine by me. I just want this one back…

it was quite desaturated mind but had high exposure contrast.

Post
#1213737
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

ok but this is massively over bright…

But yeah that’s the red version… Which might also have the correct color for the explosions and the flashes and so on.

looks like there is 2 versions and i want this one.

the whole technicolor look rings a bell but I dunno I just remember this also probably from the TV as a kid?

Post
#1213627
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Turisu said:

I always thought that moon was supposed to be blue as, when the camera pans down from the crawl, it momentarily looks like our earth and moon. Then suddenly the massive world of Tatooine rises into shot and we realise that we really are in another galaxy. Very effective if that was the original intent. 😃

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kun0Tnnu4o

😃

Yeah it’s just grey now but the matte sliding over it kind of is a bit distracting. Would have been nice if It could have retained it’s original color in the Special edition when we first see it.

Just theorizing about print scans and the levels set-up. So if you were trying to emulate what an image looked like projected you would leave highlights at 100% the mid’s you would drop to around 93% and the shadows around 85% or there abouts to take into account how something is not as bright will drop off quicker from the projector to the screen… This would be done for telecines I would imagine.

Post
#1213599
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Ah ok interesting… So although a print may have all the detail it might not have the correct exposure?

Hence why a laserdisc has more detail than a print because of being over exposed? or blown in bright part…

So like what I am questioning here about although prints may have more detail over all… They may miss out on certain details depending on how it is handled during exposure?

So just out of curiosity what color you have in the prints for very bright moments pink / magenta or white / yellow?

I guess I am questioning the exposure and luminosity and what may have been lost or gained…

But as far as the sunset shot goes I think there is perhaps Red version and purple version…I think the red version match the Tecnicolor look. Bear in mind also the Technidisc very much resembles the technicolor print color… Could be in the name Techni?

Special effects shots have different exposure to live action due to being assembled from different film stock sources?

I think that moon is meant to be Blue but a large matte slides over it so it becomes more grey…

hue, Luminosity, gain, levels and saturation more correct?

Post
#1213420
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Original

Tweaked

Came across an image of the opening and it looked quite filmic. I tweaked the color slightly.

Looks like it has a nice range between the highlights and the depths. This is only rough guess again.

But do you think this is right in terms of the range between the highlights and the shadow?

I think the star field needs to be darker / contrasty or more gain perhaps, but generally what do you think?

Grey moon or Blue moon? This one is more saturated…I think too much saturated…

Post
#1212961
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

UnitéD2 said:

Your pic is fine and makes me think about a photograph of this shot by Mike Verta during the screening of a tech print.

Is it more correct than the purple version ? That’s a good question.

My Brain is Ticking…

My opinion is Yes it is and here is why.

This shot and the space shots required special effects thus most of this stuff was made on different film stocks. The technicolor print is correct for all the live action. But in terms of anything that has special effects it needs to be adjusted to match the rest of the technicolor footage.

Let’s face it the technicolor print in mos-eisley does not need to be more yellow. This also explains the yellow faded opening and the lack of color in the explosions.

So I would say the special effects shots need to be matched to the rest of the print as they stick out like a sore thumb.

No more misleading blue / magenta stuff space ships. And don’t forget the yellow lights underneath the star destroyer…

I imagine the special effects vary quite a lot from the rest of the live action?

That yavin shot would be warmer also…

Ok I think the VHS is a good indication that a lot of the pink flashes are in fact meant to be yellow…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5qNMAM2dzg

Post
#1212929
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Well I am guessing on this one… But the Tantive explosion looks better less washed out unless it was actually just white.

But because it’s red in the bluray tells me that the cyan and yellow are missing in action.

Just realised I had the saturation down on the first shot! so mistake but it’s about the explosion anyway.

As far as the sun’s on there own shot goes… The only thing that seems to make sense is that there is a lot of yellow missing.

I am guessing here but the red glow around the sun looks good to my eyes. And it seems that it feels like it’s somewhat reacting like a normal light source of a sunset would through a camera.

So it’s safe to assume there is a quite a bit missing to make it look like a normal shot of suns but to make it look like this you have to go through the whole range of settings… I have no idea what this shot looks like on the Technidisc?

Post
#1212927
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

UnitéD2 said:

Like the sky on Yavin ? http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/KDG7NNNX

The frame is from Dr Dre’s thread there : https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-1977-Technicolor-IB-print-color-references-matched-to-print/id/55404. So the scan is accurate to the print

If I well understand you, a single correction could do the job, and it would be visible in the brightest shots only.

EDIT : For the sunset, the same correction is hardier noticeable http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/FJEFNNNU

Yavin shot The sheen on the side of the planet is correct. you notice that edge pop and a still from a thread I noticed a still from the Deraan print had that and it’s a nice detail. Again it’s a highlight.

I think if you look at the actual Technicolor Frame for the suns on there own shot it’s actually quite Red with little blue in but I would push between Green and Yellow on a color wheel not straight green.

Here’s a guess at how grey the models would have looked and also how yellow the explosions would have been.

But I’d like to see that technidisc to be sure or more sure.

Post
#1212910
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Can’t see any difference…

I want to see how a blanket Magenta Cast frame looks on that Technidisc

Also Mike Verta said there are more detail on at least one of the explosions from the end on the technidisc. I would imagine all the explosions would be more yellow rather than white or red / pink.

It’s about the highlights which will look quite different indeed not small minuscule things really given the explosions are a big part of the action.

How a laserdisc has more detail than a print?

Post
#1212904
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

I don’t have any qualms about anyones color grading I want to figure out what the extremities are meant to look like because that would be the part that fades first.

I think if we can understand how the highlights have been effected we can understand a bit better what the film did originally look like. I hate the explosions and stuff in the new versions they look terrible and those god awful pink Magenta flashes, they are all small but ruin the experience.

Post
#1212897
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

UnitéD2 said:

The technidisc sunset shot looks great to me but… is this really the original look (as you say it is) and not a regrade applied for that release ?

Technicolor frames usually look more purple as Neverar matched the bluray to.

The techicolor print was struck long after the films initial release so it’s accurate but not the highlights or the extremities.

I would say even the sunset shot is still a bit yellow faded in the technidisc.

Post
#1212891
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

The Technidisc pressing is more correct, This is what the shot is “Meant to look like”

So what went wrong?

If anyone has the Tecnidisc version please could you post up a frame where the Bright flashes only produce a totally magenta image across the color spectrum in the Blu-ray like the laser Flashes.

Could you also post any images of explosions from the Technidisc also so we can see what the explosions might be meant to look like.

The shot of the sparks around the door of the Tantive perhaps and the tantive explosion.

I tried to fix the horrid magenta discoloration on the sparks around the door…

The Raw footage proves that the sparks were not purple and the coloration of the flames to the walls are incorrect in the blu ray.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_PbbaaDYRU

The theory is that the Technidisc is perhaps the least discolored Magenta version out there in the best quality and the film on the blu ray when in extremity is suffering from severe dye fade and no color information fogging and any other number of detail problems.

Thanks

Post
#1212474
Topic
Neverar's A New Hope Technicolor Recreation <strong>(V1 Released!)</strong>
Time

I think you are being mean… And you are ignoring completely what I am talking about. I am not comparing anything I did with anything anyone else did.

I am talking about a problem in the Blu-ray or 2004 master or whatever it is.

Do you know anything about “fogging”?

Seems like that image on the top left might be having a pretty severe case of the old “Fogging”

But anyway I’ll just Fog off then

Post
#1212442
Topic
Neverar's A New Hope Technicolor Recreation <strong>(V1 Released!)</strong>
Time

“Questions, comments, complaints, nitpicking, over-analyzing, opinions, speculation, and wild theories are welcome.”

This is in the OP…

I tried to look in to what is the cause of Hue shifting and I came across the term “Fogging” when a film is exposed to heat this can cause color shifting in the negative, we also accept that the BLu-ray master is very Magenta and everyone hates the Magenta / pink problem and we want it all to look right without this. Did “Fogging” occur on the camera negative or on the original master or a combination of both?

The overall Magenta problem has clearly been irradicated here there is no complaint or some sort of theory on George Lucus original vision. This looks about right to me.

What I am calling in to question is when we have a full blown “Magenta Moment” and everything is also off base and out of Hue. We typically find these “Magenta Moments” will totally shift highlights out or the brighter parts particularly explosions don’t look right. This is found in the Blu-ray is it also in the prints too? It’s more noticeable at extremities of brightness.

The first “Magenta moment” in Blu-ray occurs when the Tantive blockade runner get’s hit by a laser and an explosion occurs. The explosion looks totally off and the general color also is. Is this also the same in the film prints?

Another example would be perhaps when R2-D2 get’s his head blown up again it looks wrong it’s meant to be white / yellow not pink magenta.

But Luke going totally pink is outside of this there is no extremity in play it totally just shifts out for no apparent reason in to full on “Magenta Moment” and there is little other color information left.

Generally I found that it’s a straight up swap the magenta for quite a lot of yellow but I don’t think there is a one size fits all to to get rid the problem…

Post
#1211888
Topic
Neverar's A New Hope Technicolor Recreation <strong>(V1 Released!)</strong>
Time

NeverarGreat said:

I’m pretty happy with the color as it is, and the few scenes I’ve tweaked for v2 are already done. But if you wanted to make your own alterations to the project, you’re certainly welcome to.

Thanks, No I don’t want to alter what you have done or interfere in your project or your goals.

I wanted to make you aware that this is one of those particular shots we have never seen look how it should look… I don’t mind people re-creating the look of the originals at all, but I do wish someone would go that extra step and well make the version we never seen before. It’s simply “meant” to look like a normal sunset nothing particularly radical, my feeling is something went wrong. You are more than capable have a play and you will see it for the first time. 😃

It does not mean it has to be part of your project or anyones project, but I find it interesting and it’s also most importantly fun…

So if you look at this example it’s more restoration than preservation, It corrects the weird color. Not sure anyone is up for doing this sort of thing though? This is no different than many other weird hue moments…

But I think your version would be a good place to incorporate these sorts of color fixes where it’s all way off. You seen it for the first time again! And I want to add you done a great deal to make the film look the way it should already… You are very much on the right track!

Anyway all I can say is I wish someone would go that extra mile on Restoration there are preservations everywhere and no restorations.

WE still have not seen this film, I mean that honestly.

Post
#1211750
Topic
Neverar's A New Hope Technicolor Recreation <strong>(V1 Released!)</strong>
Time

towne32 said:

I’m not generally sure what you’re referring to many times when you discuss hue. It seems vague or unclear.

Sorry I was trying to help if this is soley a recreation then I apologize.

Luke is purple if it looked like that originally fine… A bit knight rider I guess. Basically it seems to me that the sand and luke should be different, I already said not what I did, it was just to show what could be achieved with that shot. I was not attempting to revise what this guy done just pointing something out.

When I say it’s in the wrong hue I mean the particular shot has shifted out of hue into a incorrect hue. Like the pink jumpsuits at the battle of yavin.

Post
#1211685
Topic
Neverar's A New Hope Technicolor Recreation <strong>(V1 Released!)</strong>
Time

https://diff.pics/mSuyQ0E1JT6u/10

This shot was in the wrong hue… So I changed the hue realized you could color correct the sand.

Not sure it’s something you want to do? I think the shot is lovely as it is that you did but could perhaps be a small bit better? I just did this rough in gimp so I will let you decide on if you want to change it… Not saying this is how it should look either just a rough demo it can be better than this for sure.

You’ll notice the two grey things on the side of the hut pop when you hit the right hue…

Post
#1210903
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

towne32 said:

Possessed said:

Looks dark.

Very, very dark. Might want to look into some method of monitor calibration if this looks anywhere near normal contrast for you. It looks like Vader knocked out the power to help with the boarding/invasion. 😃

Yeah I understand. I used a you tube clip and not rip the whole film so I was hiding cans of compression worms. But even though you are right I probably handled it wrong in a lot of instances especially contrast. I appreciate how extreme Dr Dre’s color grade is though. Pretty extreme.

Just realised I missed one Hue alteration the close up when Leia inserts the card the pink light on R2-D2’s dome should be red not pink. And his little circle light might also be in the wrong Hue.

Also when R2-D2 is in the escape pod Blue Light but his Red circle light is pink again for both the blue light shots.

But I got the other 20 odd others.

Ignore the contrast pay attention to the Hue alterations. Which was really the reason why I wanted to have a go.

Post
#1210587
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

Dr Dre I like what you have done so much I had a go myself at the whole section.

I got close to what you have but I feel that you win! but I wanted to learn something and that soldier shot was bugging me… Anyway take a look at the grade there might be a few tid bits in there where you feel I win (probably not mind) but it inspired me and I like a challenge but this is not a competition really. Like I said I wanted to learn something and each shot was manually graded and there are plentiful hue alterations too please pay attention to the hues. Wow it really does shift about when you scrutinize it. The version I have is not as bright as yours and that was specifically what I wanted to do experiment with a darker grittier look… The only thing I can kind of question you from what I have seen is what is the Star Destroyer Hanger Bay light color? Is it not supposed to be yellow?

Anyway my effort to grade it is in the link below enjoy it for what it is a shot by shot manual grade that is close to yours but I feel missed the mark a bit. But it’s a good effort to be sure but not as good as yours at least most if not all the time…I won’t ever get to see your lots work so I have to re-create it myself now my computer is not much good.

https://vimeo.com/271888039

Post
#1209961
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

towne32 said:

The pink flesh tones look good. The actors look unhealthy in your hue shifts. 😃

It looks like you based it on the one particularly rosey faced man. He has probably received more attention on OT than any other character, but yes, he’s a bit red usually. But in doing so, everyone else in yours went from normal to liver failure. 😃

LOl yep I think you hit the nail on the head… I am so fed up with rosy cheeks 😃

Right let’s look at flesh.

70’s Flesh?

Post
#1209959
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

towne32 said:

Ronster said:
Could the whole film be in the wrong hue?

What makes you think that? That change perhaps bleached the walls a little more, but the characters’ face look a bit lifeless as well.

Well I kind of believe that this film is in the wrong hue and consistently shifting about in hue. So I am just wondering if there is a magic amount of Hue to bring it all together.

yeah I am just thinking about a variant that stops that pink face stuff though. It was an experiment and if you look at captain antilles jacket now looks proper tan. and the walls are whiter yes the storm troopers are whiter.

Perhaps I over did it. But I think there might be something in it. If you look at picture 9 (going left to right) Dr Dre’s version matches my version picture 13 more or less. Sot it is shifting about all over the place.

Post
#1209947
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading
Time

DrDre said:

Here are two sets of in-progress shots:

Here are the comparisons to the current release:

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/KLZGNNNX

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/FBCCNNNU

My opinion this is the best of the bunch of stills that you have posted yet.

Although I would use the darkened corridor Leia gives the plans shot. Similar to the SS release.

Experimental Hue shifting…

Total Hue shifted by +7 and mids balanced only… Could the whole film be in the wrong hue?

Actually the hues are all over the shop. So yeah that is in my opinion the main problem really with it no idea how and why hues fluctuate? But this is one of those films.