Sign In

Ronster

User Group
Trusted Members
Join date
10-Dec-2011
Last activity
20-Oct-2018
Posts
2692

Post History

Post
#1251153
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

UnitéD2 said:

ZigZig said:

I’m really sorry to say that but… nobody likes the GOUT shifts that you did.
Because they are horrible.

That’s not true. The GOUT adjustment (on page 6) didn’t look that bad. And it isn’t just my opinion, as Dr Dre said that “most of these look good”.

What I don’t understand in your stuff, Ronster, is your idea that the proper way to color correct something would always be “shifting the hue”. It’s never so simple !

Thanks but I am very short of spare time, the only thing I havd really worked out is that there are different types of hue shifts… This means that because I can not do that type of shift in the editor I notmally use I will do this outside the program.

There could be a further tweak there might not be.

I honestly can not say until I find the actual time to look at it again…

I really like the film I really just want to tackle it somehow and however I can to try to get it even a small bit better. Time is the problem right now.

I will re-iterate my draft rule that after any shift it will be assessed if it is shift and it does not rule out any further manipulation, but I don’t want to really over do it because the RGB filter was making me compensate for some color errors the vlc capture will not neccessitate extra tweaks uless it really does need it.

I really want to find a way that it is a process where you touch it as little as possible but nailing down how to do this and finding what makes it tick is not easy. I have not looked at it at all in over a week so no progress further from finding there are different types of hue shifts which I actually never knew.

The doubt I have with regards to the shift rests with R2-D2 more than anything else. He is a big question mark and I fon’t have an answer apart from shift him sparately back.

Post
#1250896
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

no I like the way the Gout shifts look. It looks to me much much better than what the gout looks like without any changes.

if everyone hates that shut the thread. I don’t reall give a monkeys if you do or you don’t like it I do though.

But keep sticking with the red faces actors you only have to compare it to ESB or ROTJ to see it is totally wrong let alone any other film.

The very thing you are asking me to do over and over is circumnavigate that problem at a content level and not what it looks like on any particular screen. And I am being attacked for doing things differently. Had enough of the stupid jokers.

Post
#1250824
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

you forgot I was trying to shift using wrong type of filters and an image editor.

the only reference I would say I am pleased with is the Gout shifting (11 images) and the planet shot with small deathstar everytging else was exploration and trying to figure it out… So really i have been trying to find out how to fix it.

But if you don’t like the Gout shifts that i did then oh well.

Post
#1250796
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Star wars is just simply bad content though or defunct amunition we keep the gun comparison going.

different guns that fire the same type of ammunition are fine but the batch of ammunition is faulty.

Our screens are all fine but Star Wars looks pretty awful no matter what screen you have. (well I still like it but I know it can be better)

This is more true to the point than saying calibrating my monitor will make star wars look great. Calibrating a gun will make it fire the faulty ammunition. It is the same thing.

Fix the ammunition or content is the answer.

Post
#1250739
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

that is actually the point though the content needs to be tailored to display well on numerous devices but we are now moving towards content specifically for say resolution and HDR and HFR and so on. Which is very different than before where it was one version for all displays now it is going towards tailoring content for the type of display.

when you say put 1500 LED panels together they calibrate to one another not what the light in the room is. Because they are individual displays that need to match one another to form a whole image.

That also means yes there is a calibration for the content going up on that 1500 panel wall. The content is calibrated to the display somewhat.

I should also mentiin you would need 1500 panels of the same make and model for it to work properly and match.

Post
#1250732
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

4k HDR samsung.

It is a cheaper model though.

the point is anyway if you were working in a studio or something of course everyone would have the same monitor.

If you are doing dual or more projection screens you make sure you have the same make and model to match.

Caliberate a monitor to somone elses monitor is nonsense. I even read a forum on why companies do not calibrate before sending out to customers and how depending on the light in the room all this bollocks. You also have specification to contend with now like HDR color depth resolution and so on.

You calibrate to match for a purpose but in an environment where everyone has a different make / model and specification or type OLEd / LED / LCD / Plasma / projector whatever utterly pointless it is the content that needs to be tailored.

you try calibrating an anti aircraft gun to be more like a machine gun never ever through calibration will you get the 2 things to match.

This is basically the truth.

Post
#1249708
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

DrDre said:

Ronster said:

I am not trolling.

Look everything I watch Star wars on, It does not look like other films do.

If we go back to say bullitt for instance the actors and actresses don’t have red or overtly red faces in star wars they do. I could compare star wars to a lot of other films and when you compare star wars to other films it certainly looks to me that the problem is Star Wars not my monitor.

So when i hue shift in VLC it might be slight it might have to be a fair amount it makes it look more like a normal film. I am happy with the result of the shifting primarily to rid the film of the weid facial color and make it sjmilar to other films.

Star Wars stands out as having a color shift problem compared to other films in a quite serious way. It is’nt to say it does not happen in other films also as I have already stated but Star Wars has a pretty severe case of it and correcting for that makes it feel much more normal and not so strange.

I like the simplicity of the handling it in such a way and I also think the result is good, I personally really like the result.

Green / Cyan in the shadow seems to be a trait I am noticing about the film. But to be honest I am not looking at it at all right now as I have been doing quite a big job this week.

Yes, but the problem here is:

  1. Star Wars has many transfers, each with their own unique characteristics, and each of them not an accurate representation of how the film looked in cinemas. So, to state Star Wars in general has a hue shift problem is a rather bold claim.
  2. The VLC filter is about as crude as it gets. You attempt to fix one issue, and a dozen others pop up. Just adding more green to the film solely based skin tones, which can vary greatly from person to person is a mistake. Just because skin tones may be overly red, doesn’t mean all other tones are red shifted as well. In fact the opposite may be true, oranges may come out more red in a transfer, whilst yellows may become more green. A correction that just adds green will seemingly improve the skin tones, whilst worsening color shifts in other areas of the frame.
  3. Some of the issues you raise may have nothing to do with hue, but with contrast or saturation.

I agree with you pretty much.

I do agree it is crude yes, at the endbof the day that will be the next part deciphering what is shifted and what is not.

the 4 rules I quoted earlier.

hue shift

Color change

hue shift and color change

treat as correct no change

so i will shift the lot where weird skin tones appear and make that assesment.

If you take for instance where the are going in the deathstar lift with chewie to the detention area. This feels like weird color to it but it’s not shifted I don’t think.

Post
#1249657
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

I am not trolling.

Look everything I watch Star wars on, It does not look like other films do.

If we go back to say bullitt for instance the actors and actresses don’t have red or overtly red faces in star wars they do. I could compare star wars to a lot of other films and when you compare star wars to other films it certainly looks to me that the problem is Star Wars not my monitor.

So when i hue shift in VLC it might be slight it might have to be a fair amount it makes it look more like a normal film. I am happy with the result of the shifting primarily to rid the film of the weid facial color and make it sjmilar to other films.

Star Wars stands out as having a color shift problem compared to other films in a quite serious way. It is’nt to say it does not happen in other films also as I have already stated but Star Wars has a pretty severe case of it and correcting for that makes it feel much more normal and not so strange.

I like the simplicity of the handling it in such a way and I also think the result is good, I personally really like the result.

Green / Cyan in the shadow seems to be a trait I am noticing about the film. But to be honest I am not looking at it at all right now as I have been doing quite a big job this week.

Post
#1249275
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

yotsuya said:

So, how do you plan on playing back this finished color correction? Do you have a theater quality projector? If not, your aim is without merit. You will have to convert and then convert it back to RGB to do anything with it so what is the point in converting it in the first place? If you start with an RGB source (GOUT, DVD, and BR) and you are going to watch it on an RGB device (Any color television ever made) with an RGB file type (as DVD and BR require), I really don’t see the point of your exercise. You are trying to recreate the wheel and there is no reason to. Calibrate your monitor first. Then stick to RGB (what your source and end viewing will be in). That is the colors our eyes see after all. Unless you have calibrated professional equipment designed for theatrical projection, there is no reason to change the color space. If it starts out RGB and ends up RGB and gets to your eyes in RGB, then … it is an exercise in uselessness. Especially without a calibrated monitor. Yours is obviously way off.

I can not seem to get it through to you but I will try again.

Anything RGB will display the YUV or Ypryb colorspace correctly.

The filter to do the hue shift though can not be done from the roots of Red Green and Blue because the math is off that is why it creates the weird / odd error. Womble did have right sort of hue shift but the filter itself was poor.

What ever filter is in VLC is the right filter to use for hue shifting the Gout which Lightworks does not have only strict RGB root shifting.

Any hue shift does not require calibration because it is relevant only to how the footage or file is. There is no added or color taken away only shifted and the aim is to shift it so that it is not off base i.e. shifted away from where it would be normally. Correcting for the shift that it is plagued by.

you can watch it on any RGB device no problem.

I can’t say it any more times I am talking about a video filter and how it handles and trying to find away atound the problem, even you said yourself you can’t use it… I say you can if you use the right one.

Anymore of this sillyness, If you still can not understand that the filter acts differently in VLC than root shifting from RGB then I just at a loss of explaining this to you. This conversation also has nothing to do with film prints. It is a practical based thread on why color hue shifting is not a bad thing if done a differenh way.

Post
#1248777
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Possessed said:

So not only are you not calibrating your monitor before making color adjustments but you aren’t even encoding properly? You’re playing it back and recording it with FRAPS? I feel like we’re being trolled now.

this would only be for a reference. But I can’t seem to find any software that is not using RGB filters.

So it would only be for a color match sample. The purpose is to create a reference version outside of RGB filters. For which if you like is a way around the problem of an RGB hue filter (wrong math)

I am trying to find a way to not use the RGB hue filter within a NLE.

The reason I suggest Fraps capture as it will capture from a window view and you also can have the filter control visible amongst any other windows needed.

But it is the only way I can see of doing this to create a reference. It is Hackish and it is unauthordox like I said. There is possibly a better way in better software may do this but it is unknown to me.

Post
#1248645
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Ok in some brief spare time I tested Womble Dvd Wizard and although the filer is yprbr colorspace it is just not a good piece of software as the filter was correct but just was innacurate and errors occured compared with the VLC media player filter.

So to offer up how I am considering the Solution now is as follows.

Load Gout in VLC.

Set hue shift in VLC media player to desired hue and capture to AVI in Fraps. this would entail having a large number of AVI clips to piece together in Lightworks and unauthordox but I can’t see anh other way of doing this. For any Color change only the color wheel should be used as not strictly RGB aside from master brightness / contrast / Gamma and saturation. Sort of creating a rule book at the moment about it.

unless for instance you can set the colorspace hue filter on programs like adobe after effects or similar. This I am unaware of capabilities of this software.

But I would vouch that once an assembled version is shifted where needed this is then color matched to a better source with Dr Dre tool or another color match filter.

This is as far as I got, as I am now not able to study any further at this time but shame about womble though.

Post
#1247916
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

yotsuya said:

So, one issue I have with what you are saying, Ronster, is that you really haven’t researched between the generation of the new interpositive the DE/Faces/Gout transfer was made from and how it ended up on the DVD/HD/Blu-ray digital print.

Here is what happened. Between when that interpostive was struck and 1993, the original negative of Star Wars faded terribly. Now, if you watch all the OOT home video widescreen versions, you will see some interesting differences in the color that could be the result of early fading, but overall they are very similar. For the Special Edition in 1997, they were working with a negative that had to be retimed. IN addition, they replaced a number of effects shots, added some effects, added some new shots. When you look at color timing, it is the process where each shot is timed when generating the interpositive. From there the prints are struck. So what you are seeing in both the GOUT and SE home video and broadcast is the telecine of a correctly colortimed interpositive. When it was scanned in 2003, it was not color timed during the scan, but was digitally color timed post scan. This resulted in all the original color timing to be lost. Not only that, but different batches of film faded at different rates so some shots are really badly faded while others aren’t. Some of the film had gone to Tunesia and back. Some to London and back, and some had never left California. This was taken into account in the color timing for the SE, but it seems not for the 2003 scan (which was done at Lucasfilm). Reportedly both the SE and the 2003 scan were timed to the Technicolor print Lucas has, but the results of both are questionable. It doesn’t appear that TESB or ROTJ suffered from the same fading as Star Wars.

To find what the colors should be we do have the telecines of the pre SE version of the film. But we are not just reliant on those telecines to find the original colors. Star Wars was one of the last films to have Technicolor prints struck. We not only have scans of Technicolor prints, but of other prints. When you put the Japanese Special Collection, Special Widescreen Edition, Definitive Edition/Faces/GOUT, foreign widescreen editions, the 16 mm prints, the 35 mm prints, and compare them to reference photos, photos of props, models, costumes, sets (or the occasions when people have been able to actually see some of those such as the costume exhibit that has been going around the country), we can arrive at a very good estimation of what the original colors were. We can see how well or bad the 2003 scan/color correction/cleanup was done on a shot by shot basis. Some are easy to recover. Some are not. Some are the result of the digital noise reduction, which removed not only actual dirt, but smoke as well.

So constantly saying the effects shots are the problem is not accurate. A lot of the effects shots have more accurate color than the no effects shots. A big reason was that the original negative of the elements were not as overused as the fully edited original negative. Some effects shots were never touched and are the same now as in 1977. Some were replaced in 1996 and some in 2003. I’ve noticed a mixed bag as to the quality of the special effects. For instance you have all these shots of Vader or an imperial pilot in the Tie fighter cockpit set that were filmed under similar circumstances and yet the red lights surrounding them come out different. A lot of those are original and not SE.

Now the inserted SE footage has been noted, even in the 1997 telecines, to be off. A bit too red and not quite matching the surrounding footage. I never noticed how bad the 1997 version was in the theater, but I think it is fair to say that the telecine is pretty accurate. We should soon have a good scan of a 35 mm print of the 97 SE to really see how it was in theaters.

So it isn’t the effects not fitting or the new footage not fitting, it is that there are so many sources and the SE just added to the number. The blu-ray really has to be cleaned up one shot at a time. It is a lot of work. The only reason I tried to do a global correction was to find the best way to fix the major issues and have a basis to take those fixes further in the necessary scenes. Some need more contrast, some less, some more color, some less, some need to be brighter and some darker. About the only thing I haven’t needed to mess with is the darks. When I compare it to the film scans, it is comparable. But the hue is not something that needs to be changed. I tried that and the results were not good enough. I wasn’t happy until I scrapped that and focused on balancing the colors. What you are seeing is that the yellows are not well represented in the blu-ray and pushing the hue one direction changes the reds to yellows and looks like it fixes the problem, but it doesn’t. It just creates other problems. You have not found the magic fix. There is no magic fix. You have to fix nearly everything. Especially in reels 1, 2, 3 and 6.

Well I think it was a bit confusing why the filter was not working as intended.

Are you using a HSV filter in the correct colorspace yprbr?

no it’s all interesting stuff and to be honest I like the way the old transfers look for obvious reasons, But I also think they can look better.

there are 4 combinations.

1.Hue Shift

  1. Change Color

  2. Hue Shift and Change Color (When you find one of these it is very cool in fact the most fun shots to do really)

  3. Do Nothing at all it is correct.

Essentially I have no time at all to do a project perhaps until December. But I am happy a big hurdle has been overcome.

In terms of the 97 laserdisc Special edition I probably only want the Special edition Special effects Shots Only from Battle of Yavin, well everything after the turret / tie fighter attack. The begining as Dre said looks good in places but generally this is a step back from the GOUT in a way.

So yeah it’s on the back burner but I have no time to do anything at this moment.

Post
#1247631
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

DrDre said:

Ronster said:

basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

Yes, they are from the same source.

Ok So basically I want to re-create 97 (broadcast?) version without crap horrible stuff at mos eisley but in yprbr colorspace.

Did anyone ever capture 97 pal laserdisc?

Post
#1247623
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

basically Laserschwerts special edition trailer is the same color for special effects in 97 broadcast version although pan & scanned.

If the print special effects shots does not resemble exactly laserschwerts trailer then we have something unique.

Does the special edition Laserdisc resemble 97 broadcast version?

Look in the Archive…

Post
#1247618
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

no I agree the film itself restored was combined with the special edition shots… But that does not mean the fx shots were designed against the print itself. As the restored print was probably was not available to design the fx shots to match to.

It seems to match the laserdiscs more so or broadcast telecines in my opinion and that colorspace.

This explains the discrepency i feel.

Post
#1247614
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

ZigZig said:

Ronster said:

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master.

You imagine far too much.

Well I don’t imagine so far as the 97 broadcast version is concerned they do match up.

So this does mean it is not how i remember it in 2004 and also it feels like what I have been trying to nail down what has happened… Do we have mixed colorspaces within the same film as of 2004. Look at the difference of the green laser color and stuff weird stuff going on similat to color error of using filters in wrong colorspace that well this thread proves you need to be in the right colorspace to use filters effectively on footage so as you get a true result or intended result.

Is this part of what has happened post 2004?

Post
#1247607
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

ZigZig said:

OK but does George Lucus have a calibrated monitor?

definitely not… He has a calibrated laser gun.

I don’t think the special effects were designed to govwith restored 1977 footage.

I imagine they designed them to match the gout master. As that was the Master prior to any other version.

Post
#1247601
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Here is how I feel about it.

Theatrical version preserved good job. I have nothing to add to this I have no desire to interfere with what ever you lot are up to.

I would however like to have a version that is very analogue looking similar to what i grew up with on TV. It’s not to hard to understand I have said this multiple times and i would like to try and recapture that. The 97 TV broadcast version I think is very good at the end of the film, I can not speak for the start really.

Do the laserdisc or VCD of special edition resemble the broadcast version? The thing is and the common complaint is that the special edition special effects shots do not match the film at all.

But if you watch the 97 broadcast version they actually do match up pretty well in my opinion. This is because the shots were not designed to go with the new Master in 2004 but another master and the broadcast version seems to me a good match. But yeah I hate the mos eisley parts and stuff horrible no matter what.

Post
#1247599
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

DrDre said:

I’m going to try one last time. Telecines, and raw scans are not reliable color references. They capture what’s on an interpositive or print, but the colors are going to be specific to the apparatus and settings used for the scanning, and in case of a telecine to the person doing the telecine. They do not represent what´s on a print, unless the scan or telecine is corrected to roughly match a projected print. So, the telecine´s generally do not represent what was put on the o-neg, or what was seen in theatres. It may look pleasing to the eye, but that’s another matter.

Ronster said:

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

How do you know this? Did you compare it to a projected 1997 SE print?

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

The 1997 SE broadcast version of the special edition for ANH is one of the worst telecines of any made for the OT. The color balance shifts constantly even within a shot, and large parts of the early parts of the film have a marked blue cast to them.

ok I only really was comparing the detail in the special effects shots initially and this is good although it is pan & scan.

But yeah I noticed how different it was and I thought this looked like a modified Gout master paired with the special edition effects. I honestly did not spend much time looking at it. But I think there is something right and something match up between the special edition effects and this broadcast version. It may be bad in your eyes but it may just have some problems.

It does seem that the general consensus is TV broadcast = bad looking not desireable and always wrong.

Post
#1247596
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

the only thing lost here is the master that the special edition effects made by ILM were to go with.

Now we have special edition effects paired with a new master that they were not designed to go with.

I don’t think the way it is now match at all rather than how it was designed to be originally in the Special Edition.

I did notice laserschwertz trailer for the normal film footage though looks nothing like the 97 broadcast version. The special effects shots however are accurate.

97 broadcast version looks like Gout Master and updated special effects.

Post
#1247575
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Unfortunately the fact of the matter is…

If you hue shift the Gout in the correct colorspace what you get is not “revised color timing” But “fixed color timing” and it is practically equal and identical to the Special edition pre 2004 i.e. 1997 Special edition released to theaters.

This is the point. George Lucus sat there and ordered the hue shifting fixed for this release , but now we are back to square one again post 2004.

So sorry for liking older versions. After seeing 1997 broadcast version of the special edition. It very much makes sense. But come 2004 until present that is like a mish-mash version.

It is theatrical print coupled with the special edition.

The Special edition though was not based on the theatrical film print but a telecine or the Gout version master. Or atleast the broadcast 97 version looks like a good version of gout master.

if the actual special edition print looks different to broadcast version then you have a yet another version of special edition which does not use Gout master.

Post
#1247391
Topic
Star Wars - What is wrong and what is right... Goodbye Magenta
Time

Setzer said:

Ronster said: at the end of the day, I like that analogue look. Sorry if you don’t like that analogue look but i do. Sort of warm and fuzzy imperfect but it yeah I like it.

PLEASE stop this. You clearly have no idea what you’re doing, and you’re NOT restoring the film to its original look.
There are numerous people in this thread pointing out errors in everything you do. Maybe it’s not us, but you.

Can’t a mod lock this thread please?

well I just caught a quick gimpse of the special edition broadcast and it is very true to laserschwerts trailer.

It is amazing how mugh ddtail has been lost after “The Restoration” What i am saying is that the special edition end part especially mostly looked way better than it does now. I am not all that fussed by it but it is like very different now also.

It is like as soon as a pure digital version was created the film has never been the same.

I would like to make a very analogue version that has that look and feel. It is trying to find what would be the best way to do that. But yes back to phosphor also something warm fuzzy and crisp.

What is the quality of special edition vcd like?