I guess that is why they made all Jedi clones go mad in the old EU. And I think it is best not to go too crazy with the clones before it gets too sci-fi and less space fantasy. It is fun and trippy to think about though!
This has always been an interesting discussion to me so I’ll share a few things I’ve found.
This is the prologue from Allan Dean Foster’s novelization of Star Wars:
ANOTHER galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that… it was the Republic.
Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, there appear those evil ones who have greed to match.So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.
Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.
Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.
Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.
But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.
From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples…
From the First Saga
Journal of the Whills
Here is an interesting write-up from Thrawn McEwok on the boards at theforce.net
Another Galaxy, Another Time…
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. And for a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the Dark Times - before the Empire.
Obi-Wan Kenobi, General and Jedi Knight, fought in the Clone Wars, serving Bail Organa of Alderaan. Fighting with him, another Jedi, Anakin Skywalker - a cunning warrior, a good friend, and the greatest starfighter pilot in the galaxy.
When he met Anakin, Obi-Wan was amazed at how strongly the Force flowed in him. He thought that he could train him as well as Yoda, the Jedi Master who had instructed him.
Obi-Wan’s brother, Owen Lars knew Anakin, but didn’t hold with his ideals - he thought he should stay on Tatooine, and not get involved in the Clone Wars. Instead, Anakin followed Obi-Wan off on an idealistic crusade, and became a hero. The pilot who would fly as Red Leader at the Battle of Yavin, was awed to meet him when he himself was just a boy.
But Obi-Wan’s pride had terrible consequences for the Galaxy. Anakin fell to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan thought that there was still good in him, but after a lightsaber duel, Anakin fell into molten lava, and became Darth Vader. He hunted down and destroyed the Jedi Knights. President Palpatine took absolute power, and the Republic was replaced by the Galactic Empire.
Obi-Wan took Anakin’s son Luke back to Tatooine, where he was raised by Owen - who told him that his father had been a navigator on a spice freighter. The Jedi became a hermit, keeping his friend’s lightsaber, which Anakin had wanted his son to have when he was old enough.
But there was another Skywalker, who remained safely anonymous: Princess Leia, adopted daughter of Bail Organa, whose real mother died when she was very young.
The clone wars were underway thirty-five years before ANH, and by the last stages of the war, large numbers of clone warriors - grown too quickly by the Clonemasters in Spaarti Cylinders - had gone insane. The Mandalorian Shocktroopers from the planet Mandalore were enemies of the Jedi during the same conflict, and other disturbances around the same time involved Jedi Knights dealing with Dark Jedi at Bpfashh and with the Jensaari at Susevfi.
One issue I had with the idea that Obi-Wan and Owen were brothers was the fact that they clearly do not share the same accent or last name, and trying to explain that would feel like a stretch. Someone mentioned that they thought Anakin came from a more noble class, since James Earl Jones’ depiction of Vader seems to make him speak more flowery than someone who grew up a farmer, but Obi-Wan does say, “He thought [Anakin] should’ve stayed here an not gotten involved.” But if Anakin and Owen were brothers, why do they have different last names? To me, if Anakin was blood-related to anyone Luke knew, it would make some sense if Beru was a Skywalker, Anakin’s sister, who married Owen. Perhaps Owen and Beru were just close friends with Anakin and Obi-Wan met them when he recruited young Anakin.
Also, the Clone Wars were always kept pretty vague. By the way Obi-Wan describes them, they would seem to be more like crusades rather than a civil war as depicted in the prequels. Honestly, I picture something more along the lines of the Mandalorian Wars from KOTOR, and Obi-Wan and Anakin would’ve been similar to Revan and Malak. There may have been multiple clone masters fighting against one another, or the Jedi had to take out different Clone Masters that popped up throughout the galaxy over a period of time. The Mandalorians seem to have been involved in the war to some capacity, but I honestly think the simplest idea would’ve been to make it a war against a Mandalorian clone army. Maybe they also cloned some Jedi to use against real Jedi or, or in their desperation the Republic tried to clone Jedi to help with the war, but those clones went mad and became dark Jedi like Joruus C’boath. Apparently Zahn originally wanted to make him a mad clone of Obi-Wan, which is interesting because an early theory about Star Wars was that Obi-Wan was a clone of “Ben Kenobi” originally called OB-1. Maybe the Republic could’ve had an army of clones as well like in the actual prequels, so it would’ve been Clones vs Clones.
I also think The Secret History of Star Wars has interesting analysis of the potential timeline and ages of Anakin and Obi-Wan during the prequels based off what we knew of them before the prequels.
Some various relevant images:
Early concepts of Jedi seem to be more in-line with Luke’s appearance in Return of the Jedi.
This might’ve been said but I felt that was the point. Characters like Jolee, Qui-Gon, and Luke could be considered “grey” relative to the status quo of the more fundamentalist Jedi, but that philosophy is more in line with what the Jedi originally were, before they became more dogmatic. So Qui-Gon and Luke are what the Jedi are meant to be, so they shouldn’t be called “grey”. They’re just Jedi. If anything, the prequel Jedi could be called something different.
Also, the “I can use both dark side AND light side powers!” idea that people equate to grey Jedi is different from new Jedi like Luke who acknowledge their inner shadow that everyone has rather than ignore it, like the Prequel Jedi did.
This seems to be a different faction of Mandalorians than the ones we have seen before. Perhaps they still follow the ancient traditions of Mandalore whereas the majority of Mandos, like the ones from Clone Wars and Rebels, have become more progressive over the centuries. In a conversation with a friend I joking referred to the Mando’s tribe as “The Amish of Mandalorians”.
Comparing Mandalorians to Christians seems like a weird comparison, but I think it could help get the point across.
The New Mandalorians like Satine Kryze and her pacifist faction would be like modern secular Christianity, which fought against the traditions of Mandalore, which would be like your typical conservative Christian beliefs (gay marriage, pro-life vs pro-choice, etc.).
Death Watch would be like radical Christian extremists, fighting to preserve their traditions but going overboard with it. Their attempted coup in the Clone Wars could be compared to Gilead from The Handmaid’s Tale.
The Tribe from The Mandalorian might be a decent comparison to Old Order Amish, who still live and practice older Christian traditions in isolation and breaking those traditions could result in exile or ostracism, beliefs which might seem excessive to even the modern conservative Christian (Clan Wren and the other Clans we see in Rebels as an example, since they seem to remove their helmets without issue, but still follow their traditions more-so than Satine’s faction did).
At first I thought The Tribe’s fundamentalist beliefs might’ve been a reaction to the possible failed rebellion that Rebels was setting up, but in Chapter 4, Mando said he had not shown anyone his face since he was adopted by The Tribe, so their practices would predate the Empire. I could be totally off-base, but the idea of varying “denominations” of Mandalorians coexisting would be pretty interesting to me and make them seem more like a living, fluid culture rather than a two-dimensional “warrior race”.
My opinion has not changed. I will admit that I was surprised the first third or so fared better than I remembered. I always thought the chase for Zam Wessel on coruscant was boring but I actually enjoyed it this time. And overall I felt much the same as I did about TPM: not great but I don’t hate it.
What else about the first third of the movie did you feel made it fair better than what you remembered?
Then we have the worst, most awkward and unconvincing romance scenes I’ve ever sat through. Then we have Padme comforting Anakin after slaughtering an entire clan of sentient beings. Then we have the droid factory and battle scenes with 3PO where he quite literally becomes a cartoon.
Do you not like that Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens, or that he told Padme he did and didn’t seem to register that big red flag?
I hate this movie. It is wholly unredeemable and I have no desire to see it again.
Oh and the sword choreography in this absolutely sucks. It’s a big step down from TPM.
Yeah, the swordplay definitely feels like a downgrade compared to TPM, not only with the choreography but the location felt less interesting as well. I think it would’ve been an interesting contrast if they had shot and blocked the choreography more akin to the fight scenes in Ridley Scott’s The Duelists. It would have shown how Dooku was a more dangerous opponent than the aggressive Maul because if you made one mistake he would exploit it and kill you. It would have made the duel tense in a different way, and suited Christopher Lee’s capabilities as an actor. I almost feel like they may have been going for this, but it doesn’t feel like it was shot or cut with that in mind.
While there are plenty of female fans of the female characters in the Sequel Trilogy, I will say that I think it would have been a great idea for George and Kathleen to have hired a female writer to help write TFA. Since even George had planned for the central character to be a girl, I think it would have made a lot of sense to allow a female writer to give her take on the story (although I imagine women at Lucasfilm like Kennedy and Kiri Hart did give their perspective).
Many planning on skipping it would likely change their minds if word-of-mouth is overwhelmingly positive.
Definitely, but we won’t really see that until after the movie comes out.
Gotcha. Can’t keep up with the initials.
Is SIW a typo or is it supposed to be Social Injustice Warrior?
I’ve had at least 8-10 people tell me they are going to see it, but you’ve heard the same from pretty much no one. So which of us is right? I don’t know how the movie will do, but I think anecdotes can only take us so far when it comes to predicting blockbuster performance.
In that case you’re on a good track! I thought the lip syncing was really well done. Fits nicely!
You may be planning to do this already, but I think more needs to be done to make the dubbing feel more integrated into the scene. Right now, it feels like a clean voiceover, as if this was someone doing a video essay on YouTube, especially compared to how Qui-Gon and Obi-wan’s dialogue sounds. I know there are audio effects through Audition and other audio programs that can help add an echo to dialogue to make it feel like it is being spoken in different types of environments. Alternatively, someone once told me about an older technique called ‘worlding’ where you would take your ADR, play it out loud in a location similar to where the lines are spoken in the scene, and rerecord them in that location. That way you are getting additional ambiance and echo that helps ground the dialogue naturally within an environment. Your Boss Nass scene actually has a noticeable reverb.
So, for example, in the Bongo scenes, you could perhaps take your new Jar Jar dialogue, play it out loud inside your car and rerecord it. Also, for how much Jar Jar moves around, I wonder if recording some foley for when he face palms, rests his arm in the chair, slumps down in his chair, clothes jostling, etc., could help sell the new dialogue as well.
Yeah, she likes the new movies and she loves Hamilton. We got lucky and were able to see it a few months ago. I’m guessing you’re into Hamilton too?
Hahaha, my sister is going to love this.
Yeah, good job Disney!
Yeah, you wouldn’t want to emphasize Poe potentially surviving too much.
When Finn and Poe reunite, he says, “I got thrown from the crash, I woke up at night, not you, no ship, nothing!”
So does that mean Poe didn’t wake up until several hours later after the ship had already sank into the sand? Or could he just not see the smoke at night and wandered off?
Though if the First Order became one-track minded when they found Finn’s track and forgot about Poe, it actually might help explain how he survived and didn’t get recaptured. You just wonder how the didn’t find Poe’s parachute either.
Hahaha, pretty brave that he admitted it!
Some random thoughts:
In TFA, when Finn asks Rey if she has flown the Falcon, I wonder if it would be possible have Rey say, “Yes, but this ship hasn’t flown in years.” Any ideas on where Rey might’ve said something similar?
In the shot of BB-8 rolling toward the Falcon (the one from the first TFA teaser), it would be cute if BB-8 was making beeping sounds as he’s bouncing across the terrain. Sort of like the sound babies make when you’re bouncing them on your knee, where their tone shifts as they bounce.
This is more of an OT change relevant to the ST: I know some people don’t like the “Godspeed Rebels” lines, but instead of removing them, you could also have an offscreen rebel officer say it at some point in the OT to establish it as a rebel phrase. The only two people we ever hear say it in TLJ seem old enough to have both been OG rebels, so it would make sense for them to say that if it was something they said in their glory days.
I think there is an interesting idea in TLJ where we see older and younger generations working together and sometimes butting heads in both factions, and I wish that could’ve been explored more in the film.
This is cool! I wonder if the first desert insert could be a shot of Finn’s parachute, and the second desert shot could be the shot of the desert where Finn runs toward the smoke, but without the smoke, and added footprints in the sand?
EDIT: Since Poe’s return felt a little out of left field to some, couldn’t you use this additional scene to also hint at Poe’s survival? I understand why you have the lines the way you currently do though.
When I said adapt the Thrawn trilogy, I don’t mean I think they’ll try to adapt it verbatim. At the very least, I could see Filoni wanting to set up a similar situation where the OT heroes interact with Thrawn in some kind of conflict.
We saw Thrawn and Ezra disappear with the 7th Fleet at the end of Rebels, so maybe they end up returning to the known galaxy and cause some trouble that Luke, Han, Leia and Ben have to deal with. If you think about it, introducing Thrawn in Rebels and then sending him off into the Unknown Regions alive seems to hint that they might want to use his character in the future. The Thrawn trilogy is probably the most important EU story in Star Wars, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Filoni wanted to very very loosely adapt that story in the new canon in some way. And when I say story, I mean having Thrawn be a post-Endor threat to the OT heroes.
To play Devil’s advocate, maybe her style would’ve been less “off” to some if they had kept her “hippy-dippy” personality from the first cut of the film. I could possibly see an argument in toning down her style since they also toned down her personality.
Also, if she had been introduced as a surviving senator, more people may have felt her style better matched that profession.
I think the First Order only needs enough time to establish a proper foothold in key regions of the galaxy to hold onto their power. I mean, these planets would surrender their ships and weapons in fear of planetary destruction, then later they find out Starkiller Base is destroyed, but they’ve already surrendered their means of defense. By the time the truth is revealed, the galaxy would be at a severe disadvantage. That doesn’t even consider the “merciless legions” the First Order has to also quell opposition and strike fear in the innocent.
I elaborated on why I think that one changed sentence would add a lot to the overall narrative, but one sentence probably wouldn’t make a big difference as far as the context goes. I mean, in-universe I feel it makes logical sense that the galaxy wouldn’t immediately know that the hidden weapon that destroyed the capital actually was destroyed. And by the time they do, the First Order has already tied their hands to some extent.
I think it would be at least worth keeping in mind. IX might provide context that doesn’t really fit with this idea, or maybe it would line up well with what we see.
A quick thought on the opening crawl for TLJ. Someone may suggested this already but if so I’ll throw it back in the ring.
The First Order reigns. Unaware that Starkiller Base was destroyed, hundreds of New Republic worlds have surrendered to Snoke’s merciless legions in fear of total annihilation.
It could be worded differently, but I think emphasizing the important of Starkiller Base here would help strengthen the films generally as they are, as well as explain why the First Order would expend so many resources on building ‘another Death Star’.
When Starkiller Base destroyed the New Republic capital, not only did they destroy New Republic leadership, but maybe more importantly, they also set an example for the rest of the galaxy: if they oppose this new regime, their planet could also be destroyed by a hidden super weapon across the galaxy. There’s nowhere to hide.
Regardless of the scale of the First Order’s military (or the New Republic’s military for that matter), this fear alone would be enough for them to “control all the major systems within weeks”.
This also increases the importance of the Resistance and their survival. They are the only ones who know the truth. Leia may have sent operatives out to try and spread the news, but you know the First Order will be working even harder to discredit the truth as “fake news”. It also explains why their allies might be afraid to reach out and help them. For all they know Starkiller Base is still out there, and they can’t risk entire worlds for the lives of a small band of Resistance fighters.
It strengthens Luke’s significance in the story as well. Starkiller, like the Death Star before it, is a symbol of ultimate fear, and the only antedote to fear is hope, the ultimate hope of the Jedi. So the dichotomy between fear and hope becomes a clearer central theme, which has been fundamental to the Star Wars films since the beginning. You can see this already in the film when radio chatter on Crait is heard right as Luke walks in. Hope is returning.
This could potentially lead in well with the Rise of Skywalker, too. Since the Resistance survived and the truth has spread, planets throughout the galaxy have begun fighting back the First Order’s rule. And without the Starkiller Base to maintan that, a powerful hidden fleet would become that much more valuable to them.
Once the film releases in a few weeks, I’m sure we’ll have more ideas for the opening crawls once we have the entire picture of the Sequel Trilogy.
I think they could find the right balance for all the characters, but honestly I would rather get the further stories with Luke, Han and Leia in a film/television medium rather than just books or comics. And since Carrie isn’t with us and Harrison and Mark are older now, an animated series would be a great way to do it. Plus, since new movies and live-action shows will likely focus on new stories and characters, a show like this could be the one story that further develops the Skywalker Saga.
But you’re right, a show between ROTJ and TFA is just an assumption, but I guess people assume that because it fits the pattern of TCW and Rebels, and the way Rebels ends implies they’ll continue that post-ROTJ story. But it would make sense to focus on a new set of characters (not necessarily brand new characters), and let the main characters of the previous series be side characters, like Ahsoka and Rex were in Rebels.
Since the post-ROTJ stories about Luke, Han and Leia were such a big part of the old EU, I can see Dave wanted to explore that with a new series.
For what it is worth, this was what was set in a Making Star Wars Podcast back in July:
Jason has heard that there is a new Star Wars animated series in the works which is more central to the story than ‘Rebels’ or ‘Resistance’. Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau are behind the series but it isn’t connected to The Mandalorian. Jason knows more but doesn’t want to say at this time.
If any of that is true, hopefully we’ll find out by Celebratuon.
I fully expect Filoni to do something about Ahsoka and Sabine searching for Ezra around the same time as The Mandalorian (and I think it would rule if those characters showed up on Mando when that other hypothetical show/miniseries/movie/whatever gets going, a la that one TNG 2-parter where they went to DS9). As for whether or not Dave is a reasonable or probable pick to replace Kennedy at some point, I kind of feel like he’s too much of a writer for that gig. Does that sort of job typically go to a creative?
I’ve heard rumors of there being another animated series that would be the spiritual successor to Rebels and The Clone Wars. It’s likely that Sabine, Ezra, and Ahsoka would return in that series, but I’m hoping it isn’t just about that.
I kind of hope that this is another “gap” series, sort of how Rebels and TCW filled the gaps between movies, Series #3 would fill the gap in-between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens. I think an animated series would be the perfect way to show the further adventures of Luke, Han and Leia. The show would need a new young protagonist to follow like Ahsoka or Ezra. It could be one of Luke’s students, but having it be Ben Solo would also be a great way to add further weight to his character in the Sequel Trilogy.
We’ve already seen that Dave Filoni likes to introduce Legends material, and combining the story of the OT heroes and the animated heroes would allow for this show to potentially do a soft reboot of Heir to the Empire, or at the very least have the OT heroes encounter Thrawn. The OT heroes interacting with characters like Ahsoka, Ezra and Sabine could be interesting too.