I think so too! I think Kylo interacting with different characters would pretty fun to write. Maybe I’ll start a general rewrite discussion thread over there so people can bounce ideas around for the film.
I recall that the commentary for TFA wasn’t released until the 3D copy came out, right? So it is possible a commentary could come later.
I’m still curious if there really will be no deleted scenes, but honestly it would be nice to just extend the film some more, the TFA deleted scenes didn’t really add much of anything at all. The biggest thing might be the brief conversation between Kor Sella and Leia. It definitely helps flesh out the political situation slightly, but it didn’t make or break the film. I have a feeling that even if we got deleted scenes for TROS, they probably wouldn’t have added as much to whatever we hoped they would.
It’s funny that you guys are talking about rewrites. I had been thinking the same thing, especially the other day when we were talking about Kylo’s redemption arc in one of the discussion threads.
Hahaha, that will be the closing title card.
I’ve said this before but I think a theme for Episode IX that you could run with is this idea of “healing wounds” whether it be physical or metaphorical. Mustafar is shown to be healing, apparently. So seeing flowers grow on Tatooine might play into that idea that the world will heal and grow now that this great evil has been destroyed and some kind of balance has been found.
We also see a wilted flower in Rey’s home at the beginning of her journey, so it would be a nice parallel to see a blooming flower in her “new home” at the end, even though I don’t think Rey will be staying there.
There were shrubs and house plants around the homestead in IV and II, but you don’t see anything like that in IX.
It might make more sense if she was meeting somewhere there… wink wink nudge nudge
That isn’t a bad idea though! There’s definitely logic to that.
It is sort of random, but I would like to digitally insert desert flowers somewhere into the Tatooine sequence…
If JediPaxis’ leaked plot descriptions are anything to go off of, I think when Kylo/FO and the Resistance find out Palpatine is alive did change somewhat.
I don’t think Kylo didn’t exactly know what he would find in the Unknown Regions originally. Apparently the info Poe and Finn get from the spy is that Kylo is searching for something in the Unknown Regions, not that Palpatine is alive and has a fleet of warships laying in wait. Leia has a contact that might have a lead regarding the Unknown Regions, and she sends them to Pasana.
It is possible this was not accurate, but I can totally see them deciding to make it clear from the beginning that Palpatine is back in order to make the goals of the characters clearer, and to raise the stakes for the Resistance early on.
I don’t subscribe to the conspiracy theories, but I can totally see the function of the Oracle becoming redundant or contradictory if Act I was restructured a bit. I think Pablo even mentioned on his twitter that Act I received the most changes during reshoots.
Okay, that does make sense. I assumed that the “reshoots” in JediPaxis’ plot summary were just the leakers receiving more accurate info, but it would make sense if Palpatine wasn’t revealed until the end of the first act. Which just makes me want the deleted scenes more, so a fan edit can partially revert the movie to an earlier version, like Hal did in his edit of ROTS.
You’re right, when I went back and read them I had to be careful about what was information that was changed due to story changes/reshoots, and what was simply things that were clarified to him rather than actual story changes. He typically would elaborate a little if things were rewrite related, which he does somewhat for this plot point.
His leaks occasionally are light on details, but you can’t always assume the omission of those details and later elaboration means those were reshoot changes.
I’ll be thankful once we actually have the film in the deleted scenes are in our hands, so we know what we actually have to work with. But knowing how it was originally mapped out might give us a better idea for how the film was originally paced, and the steps editors can take if they wanted to also slow the pace down or recreate a similar structure from earlier cuts of the film.
Even beyond an editing perspective, I find the whole development process really interesting. The leaked shooting script(?) for TFA was also rather interesting since it hinted at an alternate opening, more flashbacks, the Resistance Warhammer/Sledgehammer ship, etc.
I was honestly expecting them to reimplement Leia’s lines regarding the Warhammer for a ship that might’ve played a role in the final battle, but it possible it was never shot anyway.
Maybe we will get more insight regarding changes in the commentary, since Abrams touched on reshoot changes somewhat in the TFA commentary.
If JediPaxis’ leaked plot descriptions are anything to go off of, I think when Kylo/FO and the Resistance find out Palpatine is alive did change somewhat.
I don’t think Kylo didn’t exactly know what he would find in the Unknown Regions originally. Apparently the info Poe and Finn get from the spy is that Kylo is searching for something in the Unknown Regions, not that Palpatine is alive and has a fleet of warships laying in wait. Leia has a contact that might have a lead regarding the Unknown Regions, and she sends them to Pasana.
It is possible this was not accurate, but I can totally see them deciding to make it clear from the beginning that Palpatine is back in order to make the goals of the characters clearer, and to raise the stakes for the Resistance early on.
I don’t subscribe to the conspiracy theories, but I can totally see the function of the Oracle becoming redundant or contradictory if Act I was restructured a bit. I think Pablo even mentioned on his twitter that Act I received the most changes during reshoots.
Also, from what I recall the interaction between Hux and Pryde on Mustafar was filmed, so if we get that whole conversation and Pryde mentions the transmission, it does add more variables to play with.
There’s just a lot to speculate on that might prove meaningless depending on which deleted scenes, if any, we’ll actually get.
Well if we even get this deleted scene, I don’t think it would be out of the question to redub the oracle if we felt it could be useful to provide some alternate dialogue. Honestly it is rather boring and straightforward in this version. It doesn’t do anything, and I’m not sure why it was ever referred to as ‘Oracle’. Perhaps it originally had a different purpose. If anything, it should be giving Kylo a prophecy based off that name. Perhaps regarding the dyad?
Incredible, incredible work, Petro!
I understand why some people wanted Kylo to be redeemed in the first act, but in my opinion it wouldn’t really work. Redemption in Star Wars has always been more of a spiritual affair. Watching Kylo act all chummy with the new trio would be really jarring for me, considering all the horrible things Kylo did. In my opinion the only endings that would work for Kylo are either becoming an exiled renegade fighting for justice, or dying in a heroic sacrifice. Trevorrow choosing to go with the latter is completely fine in my book.
I get that, and I think Colin’s direction is valid, but I don’t think it is necessarily the only way it could’ve worked. In this scenario I don’t really picture them being chummy at all at the beginning. Finn and Poe would obviously hate him, and Ben/Kylo wouldn’t like them in return. But it would be interesting to watch them find common ground and work together, and then in the end make amends.
And think about it, some of the best character interactions are when are main characters are fighting with each other, think of Han, Luke and Leia escaping the Death Star. I could definitely see those kind of interactions between them and that type of film. It could’ve been really fun and different from what we’ve gotten before!
I just think the tension between the gang that Ben’s inclusion would’ve created could’ve put the audience on the edge of their seats, not knowing what to expect. It would’ve been new territory.
Huh, that is another good point I hadn’t really considered. Then Poe could better fit into the role of Leader as he was meant to be, more wise and mature. I think Leia could have died earlier in the film, possibly whenever Kylo is almost killed/left for dead by Hux and the Knights of Ren.
Either way, Leia’s death should’ve propelled Poe into a stronger leadership role than what we really saw. I’ve said this before, but I think you could’ve kept the whole plot about sending a message throughout the galaxy as Colin had it set up, but imagine if the message was supposed to be from Leia, but after she dies, Poe thinks all is lost and doubts his own abilities, but in the end he ends up being the one to send that message. I think seeing Poe starting out as that hotshot pilot from the beginning of TFA, to a leader calling on the galaxy to take a stand against the First Order, would’ve been a great arc for him.
But then again - if they flip him at the end of the 1st act, her falling for him FOR REAL suddenly becomes a lot more possible, too.
I totally get all of your points, Broom Kid. I think they’re really fair. This is why I think, like you said, that seeing Rey and the real Ben interact in a non-confrontational way would’ve allowed for that romance to take hold for audiences who weren’t really sold on it (or even saw it) in the last two films.
I imagine them starting to work together before they get to the Death Star (or the Death Star equivalent), and their fight could’ve related to some tension that still remained between them. It would’ve been very similar to how couples in romances tend to have a falling out halfway through the movie, only to get together by the end of the film.
The character dynamics of THAT movie are drastically different (and kind of exciting) more-so than the sort of “we know he’s going to turn good by the end here” vibe that TROS and DOTF both had. The idea that the rest of the trio HAVE to interact with him now would be really, really interesting to see play out.
This is a big reason why I like this idea! A movie where Kylo/Ben is having to interact with Rey, Poe, Finn, etc. is entirely different from their interactions in the last two films. In TROS, the interactions between Rey and Kylo don’t feel any different from the last two films. It definitely would have provided plenty of material for interesting scenes that could deal with forgiveness and atonement in a way that Vader’s redemption never did, setting TROS more apart form ROTJ.
Like you said, I feel like most people went into this film expecting Kylo to be redeemed, so why not do it early on, play around with character interactions we would never get otherwise, and then maybe Rey actually turning to the dark side and then Ben saving her at the end be the big “hurray” moment. After their fight, Ben could have been the one to get the pep talk from Luke, and they could’ve made amends. I’m not trying to take away from Rey’s story, but I think Rey and Ben could’ve been dual-protagonists whose stories reflected each other, then finally coalesce in the final act. Rey’s story could’ve been similar to Anakin’s, who slowly is seduced with the promise of saving the one’s he cares about from dying. The weight of being the galaxy’s savior, of being the last Jedi, could be weighing heavily on her throughout the film, which leads her down the dark path starting around the midpoint or end of act 2, reflecting Ben’s turn at the end of Act 1.
I know I sound like a broken record but I really do feel like the First Order coup was such an obvious direction to take Kylo’s story. Leave Kylo near-death, and force him to work with the Resistance gang, then set up Hux and the Knights of Ren as the primary antagonists. Hell, they could even be trying to resurrect Palpatine if they reaaaally felt like they needed a big bad evil guy. Imagine Adam/Kylo/Ben sharing scenes with Poe/Oscar, Finn/John, and even Chewie, the droids, and those interactions could alleviate any concerns regarding how Ben will make amends for his crimes. You could’ve had a scene with Poe struggling to pilot the Falcon early in the film similar to what we got, then later show Ben pilot it like we’ve never seen before. Imagine Han’s skill level, but if he was Force-sensitive.
I feel like having a whole movie’s worth of Adam’s Ben Solo was a missed opportunity. Also, letting Ben and Rey have face-to-face scenes together would’ve allowed for the writer’s to build toward that kiss in a more natural way. I can vividly imagine a scene similar to Lando’s Closet in Solo, where Rey walks in as Ben is putting on some of Han’s old clothes.
You could still have a duel or two between Rey and Ben too. Maybe at the midpoint, Rey could’ve found some Sith holocron and it makes Rey want to fight Ben for whatever reason, and Rey begins to turn to the dark side because she thinks it is the only way to stop the war and save her friends. As Ben moves towards the light, Rey moves towards the dark. After the fight, Rey flees to go find Palpatine/the Knights of Ren to participate in the ritual, and like TROS, just before Rey makes the sacrifice, she senses Ben has come back for her.
That whole climax could’ve taken place beneath the Jedi temple rather than Exegol, and then you could have the other battles happen on the surface and in space like in DOTF. Though it seems pretty apparent that they didn’t want to have the climax be on Coruscant for whatever reason, since it apparently changed in the second draft.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent. There’s definitely things I like and don’t like about both. Just wish they had built off of what they had rather than start from almost scratch.
Speaking of Poe and Rey, it is definitely something I don’t prefer, but I feel like I understand why Colin included it.
I think Colin wanted one of the things Rey had to deal with be the dilemma between romantic love and the Jedi path, and her not denying love was meant to be an acknowledgement of, “Love doesn’t make us weak, but strong.” The old ways of non-attachment and fearing love was counterproductive for the Jedi. Colin interpreted the conclusion Kylo’s arc in TLJ as definitively choosing the dark side, and the potential for that relationship ended. Since Finn and Rose were set up as a thing, it really only leaves Poe to have that necessary romance for Rey. I have a friend who ships them, so when I told her that it actually happened in Colin’s script it blew her mind.
I think what bothers me the most about it though is that I feel like the stronger relationship for the trilogy is clearly between Rey and Ben, and that dilemma of love and being a Jedi should have been explored between them. Their relationship should’ve paralleled Anakin and Padme’s, but ended with a happy ending. I understand why Colin went down this path, I get the logic of it, but I definitely think it would’ve been the easier, poorer choice.
EDIT: Thanks Dom!
Do we know whether or not the Rey/Poe romance was still in the second Trevorrow draft that MSW talked about?
Unfortunately, yes. According to MSW:
“Rey makes Poe leave with Chewie to go help the Resistance (Finn and Rose). She kisses him to make him do this.”
Other than that, I think the second draft is a big improvement over the first. Kylo is humanized, the plot is streamlined, some moments that came out of nowhere originally have more setup, Carrie Fisher’s death is dealt with in a satisfying way, and we get more of redeemed Kylo before he dies. The only problem I have with the second draft is the renaming of Coruscant to “Remnicore,” but that’s not a dealbreaker for me. I’m confident that if Trevorrow had time to refine his script before filming, his version of Episode IX would have been amazing.
Starkiller, do you think you could post the summary, or parts of it, that he shared? I do not recall most of those details at all! Must have missed it.
Can anyone find a good model of the Resurgent Star Destroyer online? I"m having trouble finding any. Maybe no one has really made one.
I haven’t gone through the entire DOTF script yet, but I have to say I really loved the opening scene of the film. I liked the description of the hangar closing in around the star field, BB-8 “deep undercover”, Rose actually doing something, seeing migrant workers and life under First Order rule, Kuat drive yards, seeing people react to Rey, them stealing a Star Destroyer. It would’ve made for a far more swashbuckling opening than the one we got.
I actually think this scene could be adapted to canon as a comic. This easily could be a mission the gang goes on in between TLJ and TROS, and them destroying their shipyards would explain why the First Order would be desperate to acquire the Sith Fleet.
Another thing I liked about it was that I feel it ties in nicely with the Canto Bight stuff from TLJ. It highlights how war is a business for some people, and that greed can perpetuate conflict for profit. So having the Resistance try to destroy Kuat shipyards is a way for them to target that problem. Hit them where it really hurts. That was another thing I felt was lacking from TROS. Fan edit wise, I think creating a shot of the Kuat drive yards being destroyed as part of the ending montage would be a loose, but nice way to tie into that plot point, as well as be sort of an homage to this script.
I really dig the Remnant Stormtrooper. I would love to see the post-ROTJ flesh out some different Remnant factions more that all have a different look to them.
We still got plenty of Endgame comparisons with TROS! I think what makes the Rey scene feel like the Harry Potter scene is them giving her the choice to stay or go back, similar to the choice Dumbledore gives to Harry.
I feel like many people look at Kylo and Vader through the lens of them being authoritarian dictators, when I think we should look at them through the lens of family. Fathers and sons. This isn’t a story about Adolf Hitler or a Neo-Nazi, it’s a story about your estranged father or your misguided son. Or even you, after you’ve realized you’ve made some mistakes in your life and you may have hurt people you care about. And I think the films try to send a message that it is never too late do try and do the right thing. To make amends with your loved ones.
I’m loving these. Keep it up!
I think the guys who do the Rule of Two podcast made a similar comment. There are a lot of moments in his script that feel pulled from other fantasy movies. Rey coming face to face with the Jedi in the netherworld of the Force definitely feels like Harry seeing Dumbledore in the King’s Cross purgatory scene from Deathly Hallows.
Maybe Luke and Vader could’ve briefly talked about the Empire during their conversation on Endor. It could’ve paralleled Luke and Obi-Wan’s conversation where Luke says, “I don’t like the Empire but there’s nothing I can do about it right now.” Luke challenges Vader to do the right thing like Obi-Wan once did to him, and we could’ve gotten insight on what Vader thinks about the Empire, but give an excuse as to why he can’t change it. Maybe after he killed the Emperor, he could’ve stumbled over to the Emperor’s throne, with Luke looking on worried if he would sit down to “take the throne”, only to have him call off the attack and order their forces to retreat. Or something along those lines. If the rebels were losing, and Vader’s orders saved them, it would’ve helped tie Luke’s act of nonviolence not only into saving his father’s soul, but also save the Alliance (especially since their ability to destroy the shield generator and then the Death Star is rather disconnected to the battle between Vader and Luke).
I honestly thought Kylo Ren’s redemption was meant to set up a similar idea. Having him become the Supreme Leader, but then to turn back to the light, would’ve allowed him to finally end the war in a nonviolent way. Unfortunately we didn’t get that.
Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.