RogueLeader

Hmm, the Knights of Ren are a tough nut to crack.

On the one hand, Luke’s dialogue in TLJ about Ben taking a handful of Luke’s students with him made me think the other Knights were Luke’s other students. On the other hand, I think it would be weird to depict them as such when TROS does nothing to suggest that. They apparently were Jedi students, but none of them wield lightsabers or ever display any Force abilities. Plus, you’re left with the weird conclusion that Ben was responsible for their turn, but did nothing to help turn them back and instead killed them all when it wasn’t convenient for him anymore. If Ben even had one line on Exegol, trying to turn them back, that probably would’ve sufficed.

If the Knights were just Sith or dark side cultists who follow Kylo Ren because he is the grandson of Darth Vader, it would probably be a cleaner explanation that doesn’t leave you scratching your head as much. They dress the way they do because they worship the Sith, and of course they would choose Palpatine over him once he returned. Sure, maybe it isn’t as interesting as the Knights being some of Luke’s other fallen students, but it would be a stretch to make that clear, with what little material we have to work with.

BUT, since I hate myself, I’ll try to lay out some of my own thoughts for how one could try and make the Knights of Ren be fallen Jedi as clear as possible.

First of all, here are some suggestions for dialogue. I thought the Knights would be a good way to explicitly establish Kylo’s feelings for Rey early on, as well as be a way to show the Knights feel like Kylo has betrayed them for her. Some extra dialogue could hint at their force sensitivity and their relationship to Luke.

Mask reforging -
Knight: Your feelings for the girl are a weakness. Bury them deep. Then we’ll bury her. (or, referring to the mask) This will remind you of who you really are.

On Kijimi -
Knight: They’re close… I can sense them.
or Knight: The girl is close… I can sense her.

On Exegol -
Knight: So, you were seduced by the girl.
I think it would be great if Ben could say something here, like, “Don’t.” “Stop!” “Join me.” “No.” At least give Ben some semblance of an attempt to talk to them.
Knight: Sidious has offered us more power than you ever could. (or) Say hello to Luke for us.

I may have mentioned this on the TROS main thread, but I think if you were to make them Luke’s students, it might also be worth trying to make some of them carry lightsaber-type weapons. If they were former Jedi, it makes sense for some of them to have Jedi-esque weapons.

Excellent work, jonh, as always!

I like the DotF concept piece, but I think if we were to use it, I would remove the massive ship and replace it with a regular FO destroyer. If we are going to show a destroyer blowing up during the victory montage at the end of the film, I think it would be better to set up that moment by showing that destroyer hover above the city at the beginning of the film, rather than this big boi right here. Unless we showed it blow up or on fire at the end.

Wow, that’s really cool skenera! And it may not be necessary, but I think a nice final touch would be to add lanes of air speeders flying through the city.

Lol, omg you’re right. Hell, they could’ve hijacked even one of those Star Destroyers and just blown up Exegol.

Hal 9000 said:

My brother got me a present the other day: a shirt with Ep1 C-3PO that says “FLESH.”

Your brother has good tastes.

Well, TLJ also already broke that rule first with the Rashomon flashbacks, so I don’t see why we have to preserve that rule now. Also, I think the training flashback is more relevant where it is, and it also might affect the pacing in a weird way to add the flashback there. If anything, I wonder if we could add the flashback sound effect from TLJ to when we transition into the flashback.

If we wanted to establish Leia’s Jedi training earlier, maybe it could fit somewhere into Rey’s forceback in TFA?

Good point. He does look much happier! Did someone say Jedi party?

Despite me wanting to see a Ben Lives ending, I agree that I think Ascendant would work best to keep Ben dead, and have him appear as a Force ghost, like you said. A part of what persuaded me was the wonderful “Falcon and friends” version of the ending snooker and Poppa were working on. It definitely keeps the ending more Rey focused, rather than Rey and Ben focused.

I’m sure this will sound ironic coming from someone who is in the Reylo camp, but if this edit is going to leave Ben dead, a part of me kind of wonders if the kiss should go ahead and be cut too. Admittedly, I don’t think the romance was as explicitly set up in this film as it should have been. And going from the kiss and them happily smiling at each other, to Ben falling over dead, feels almost comedic. Maybe keeping it would show that future Jedi will be allowed to love, though.

Don’t get me wrong, I still want to see a Ben Lives edit that keeps the kiss and all that jazz, but if Ben is going to stay dead and leave no potential for a future romance, then what is the point of keeping it and tease/surprise the audience? However Ascendant goes, I think I’m fine with it either way.

To be fair, I don’t blame anyone who thinks Ben deserves a harsh punishment or even death. I think if the films had done a better job of sticking to those themes, then they would’ve understood the forgiveness perspective better. But the films, as they are, don’t really explore that aspect as much as they should have, IMO.

Maybe it is just an aspect of our modern day culture that makes people feel that way. But I think that is all the more reason that this film should have taken that approach.

Han himself would probably disagree with you!

Definitely beyond the scope of a fan edit, but I really think the idea of forgiveness should’ve really been explored in this last film. I see so many people online say Kylo could never be forgiven for the things he’s done, but I think the idea of someone being beyond forgiveness or redemption is very against what Star Wars is about. It’s obviously idealistic, but hope, which is a central theme of Star Wars, is equally idealistic.

Yeah, maybe we can save a glimpse of it for a trailer for Ascendant? Haha.

Eddie, since you poured so much time into this, were there certain things you would like to discuss based off the analysis. Honestly we could talk about the Finn/Poe ideas on the main TROS thread.

Yeah snooker, you had some pretty good plans to set up their feelings for each other throughout. It’s too bad there’s no way to get a kiss in there at the end.

Wow, I’m impressed by all the work you put into this!

Btw, I was the one person who felt personally attacked, you bastard~

Also, I might tackle what to do with Finn’s plot, since it seems most people have no idea what to do about it.

From what I understand, most people believed Force ghost Anakin was just wearing Tatooine robes because he also was from Tatooine, not because it is a Jedi outfit.

^Good idea!

I actually don’t think reshooting is necessary.

I’m sorry to hear this, Holly! I hope you are gonna stick around the forums at least.

-Colton

Yeah. I really do love the friends on the Falcon and the Falcon flying away into the sunset ideas, but I also think there would be a lot of people, even beyond this site, that would appreciate a Ben Lives version of the movie.

Great write up, Omni! I actually think we’re on similar pages.

I think we both agree that a true Jedi must acknowledge the dark side that exists in them, and they shouldn’t let the dark side control them. But in my opinion, we never really get a moment where Rey acknowledges her dark side.

What I’m suggesting is that Rey can have a moment in the film where she does what is referred to in Jungian psychology as “shadow work”. Sure, shadow work in real life isn’t about shooting lightning from your fingertips, but Star Wars is all about the metaphor. But it’s like you said, one must confront and understand their own dark side, but Rey never does that.

The thing is, we know that Rey is afraid of, more than anything, herself. Not Palpatine. Herself. So, how is her overcoming Palpatine satisfying in any way, shape or form? What is the ultimate boon that Rey earns by the end of this film that she can bring back to the ordinary world? Rey’s arc over the course of the trilogy has been to forge her own identity and learning to accept herself for who she is. If Rey learned to accept this final aspect of herself, it might actually be something the entire movie seemed to be setting up.

Perhaps it is the wrong move for Rey to use the lightning to defeat Palpatine. At the very least I like the idea to make Rey’s lightning she uses on Pasana yellow. Not only to separate her use of it from Palpatine, but choosing to make her lightsaber the same color as her lightning might be enough to show that Rey has come to acknowledge that dark side in her. I hope that makes some sense.

Also, thanks Ash and Idir for your thoughts! Again, I enjoy your input Omni. These are my favorite kind of conversations.

I mean, I think it is relevant to the discussion if it helps determine the merits of certain editing choices.

If you view embracing the dark side as being evil, sure. If the dark side is meant to represent the authentic human emotions that we often repress, like fear or anger, then I disagree. It’s the denial and repression of these emotions within us that leads to people becoming evil. If people were to acknowledge their inner dark side and have a healthy relationship with it, then that is perhaps what balance means.

Throughout IX, Rey’s relationship with her powers and inner dark side is reflective of how the Jedi view emotions throughout the saga. Yoda and Obi-Wan warn our protagonists about the dangers of fear and anger, and how they will lead you down the path of the dark side. Even love and attachment is a danger to them, and their only form of compassion is rather non-personal. But if we’ve learned anything from this story, it’s that these views on emotions are wrong. Anakin fell to the dark side not because the Jedi were right to be afraid. He fell because he didn’t develop a healthy relationship with his emotions. He lacked any emotional support after he left his mother, and sought that out with Padmé, which he had to keep secret from the Jedi, because they deemed any form of emotional vulnerability as dangerous.

This is something that was unfortunately repeated with Ben. Like Leia said, “I should have never sent him away. That’s when we lost him.”

Throughout the Saga, Luke is arguably at his best when he doesn’t listen to his masters. It was compassion and love, as well as fear and anger, that allowed him to save his father.

In Rey’s case, I think you can draw a comparison to how women are often viewed as emotional, and how it can be a weakness. Rey views her emotions as her weakness, and thinks it is dangerous enough for her to live out her days in isolation, like Luke tried to do. What if the message of this story that our emotions can actually be our strength? That it is okay to be afraid, or to be angry, and that those emotions don’t make us bad people?

If these movies are, at their most pure form, meant to be for kids, maybe that is the healthy kind of lesson a story like Star Wars would want to teach them. That you shouldn’t view your anger or fear as gateways to evil that must be suppressed. Instead, you can learn to “master the mad you feel”.

If you’re adamant on viewing the Force simply as a fictional magic system which has rules that cannot be broken, fine. But maybe we should consider viewing the Force symbolic of something personal within us, that doesn’t boil down to “one side good, one side bad”.

Even if the way I’m suggesting it be done may not be the right way to do it, I do feel like this question of balance was the inevitable problem that needed to be addressed in this film. Right now, I don’t think the theatrical film gives such an answer, and without an answer I’m afraid this movie will still be totally void of any kind of saga-concluding message, regardless of how much you try and polish it.

I get that, but if you remove Palpatine’s lightning storm, then you also have to remove Rey’s “be with me” moment. You’d just have to cut a lot out to get rid of it.

Maybe it uses their force energy to conjure all that damn lightning.