RogueLeader

DominicCobb said:

Would you believe me if I told you that I just last night I finally implemented my new Rogue Leader inspired non-Palpatine reveal? For the first time since I started editing I feel like this is something that works. Just need to touch up a couple things now before my workprint is a reality.

Oh yeah? I can’t wait to see it, especially if you’re feeling good about it!

Hal, have you been watching the Monster’s Inc movies on repeat with your kid or something? 😂

No. At least for me, I’m working on the computer everyday right now, so after I get done with work, the last thing I want to do is sit on the computer and edit some more. 😂

I just need a good weekend where I don’t have anything else to do, to actually sit down and work on this some more. I’m still making notes here and there, though, about what could be done.

I might throw the “script” I have written for the Force bond duel scene on here sometime, in case anyone else wants to tackle it.

This material would definitely be good for an Empire Strikes Back: Slightly Extended Edition. 🤣

The one unfortunate thing is how some shots are messed up by the added text that occasionally appears at the bottom.

ben_danger said:

The whole child-soldier thing really bugs me about the ST. In the OT - I felt the battle between the empire and the rebels was fairly morally unambiguous. The empire was evil - the people fighting for it were likely culpable. But the element of recruiting child soldiers in the ST really makes me feel bad for the Stormtroopers and Officers who are killed.

I think this idea could be taken two different routes:

Option A) Remove any implication of stormtroopers being child soldiers. Since the films never address that fact, it would be better to make the stormtroopers more responsible for their allegiance. It also might make Finn’s defection have a little more impact, since he presumably made the choice to join them in the first place. Also, Finn’s seems to have pretty normal social skills for a child soldier, and we never have to see him be deprogrammed from all the propaganda he must have grown up hearing. It definitely would’ve been interesting to see Finn and Poe at odds with each other because of their assumptions about the other faction, but then slowly form a mutual respect. Instead, they’re friends instantly.

Option B) Keep stormtroopers being child soldiers, but alter Finn and Poe’s blaster effects in IX to make it seem like they are stunning stormtroopers rather than killing them. This would at least make it seem like they are aware of the implications of their actions, and are actively trying to avoid killing people who were child soldiers, just like Finn. And you could potentially give the Sith troopers clone voices as well. Technically they’re child soldiers, too, but they weren’t taken from a family like Finn and Jannah were.

It would also be nice if you could imply that Jannah and the other troopers were inspired by Finn’s defection. She could say, “We laid our weapons down, like you.”

Also, instead of Finn saying, “It’s real. I wasn’t sure then, but I am now”, I think it would be nice if Finn said something like, “This is where we belong. I wasn’t sure then, but I am now.” I honestly feel like there is so little payoff to Finn’s force stuff, it would be better to keep his scenes focused on Finn’s trilogy-long arc of finding something to fight for. Plus, it implies that Finn has now recruited the defected stormtroopers, who were inspired by Finn’s own defection. Unfortunately a lot of this is implied off-screen, but I think it is the closest we can get to Finn’s stormtrooper rebellion with the footage we have.

I’m not sure what is going on with the Monster Inc. memes, Hal, but I’m liking it.

I personally don’t agree with the idea of “revealing” Palpatine’s survival earlier to the audience. Yes, I do like the idea of seeding the possibility of his survival, whether it be through Rey or Kylo, in visions they see or voices they hear. It should be all but confirmed before the last film, where, in an alternate universe, we would be having fans speculate on why Kylo is hearing Palpatine’s voice, or who that hooded figure was that Rey saw in the dark side cave, or who she heard/saw in a vision. So it is almost a given that Palpatine will show up in IX, in some form. It is a thin line to walk, but I think you have to find that balance for it to feel satisfying, and not shoehorned.

You could even blend Snoke and Palpatine’s voices occasionally, like in TLJ, when Snoke says, “Give, me, everything.” You could take Palpatine’s “everything” from IX, and blend them together. Just enough to get the audience to scratch their heads, you know? Especially since the Emperor’s theme plays during that exact moment.

That may have been what you meant, though! I just personally don’t like the idea of putting any of Palpatine’s scenes into TLJ, for example. But to each their own.

According to JXEditor, he got an impersonator to record new lines. He did both Kylo and Palpatine. Someone who goes by Ian-Luke Productions.

NeverarGreat said:

I think people are reading too much into a line. “When I left you” doesn’t match very well the Mustafar encounter anyway, since Obi-wan did the leaving. It could easily be interpreted as Anakin leaving the teachings of the Jedi, having failed to gain mastery in their ways, but he’s now a master of the ways of the Sith.

Exactly. And there are already so many other contradictions in Obi-Wan’s ANH lines when you compare them to what is actually depicted in the prequels. I’ve accepted those contradictions, so a few more won’t bother me as long as they are telling a good story.

Could you just cut all of Snoke’s hologram scenes in TFA? And we only hear Snoke mentioned in passing? You could also cut out his hologram at the beginning of TLJ, and the first time we see him would be when Kylo goes to see him in the throne room. If anything, cutting more scenes of him would downplay his importance, as well as remove any apparent contradictions between the two films.

Great job, Luka Frik!

I had another thought I wanted to add: Some fans have drawn comparisons between the stone-like Star Wars logo to the logo of Monty Python’s Life of Brian. (Obviously, this speculation is a bit of a stretch, but with it being so far out, I don’t think a little speculation will hurt anybody.)
If the person who designed that logo was familiar with the premise, perhaps it hints at some similarity between Waititi’s project and Life of Brian. If his film is going to explore the origins of the Jedi and their relationship with the Force, maybe it will play around a little with religious satire. Life of Brian’s subject of satire was religious dogmatism. We see in the film how people misinterpret Jesus’ message, and we see countless people argue interpretations of Brian’s “messages”. Maybe we will see how the Force brings these various beings together for some peaceful, common purpose, but those beings will immediately begin to disagree on that purpose, and we’ll see the different factions split and fight each other, leading to the creation of groups like the Jedi and the Sith.

While I don’t think it will be a straight up comedy, Waititi’s projects have an interesting mix between drama and humor, so it will probably have both funny and serious moments. Waititi has mentioned that Monty Python’s Flying Circus was an inspiration for Jojo Rabbit, so I could easily see Monty Python also inspiring his next Star Wars project.

Anyway, totally a far-fetched guess, but this is based on the very little evidence we have been given so far.

Some people were talking about how the other piece of concept art Kathleen Kennedy was standing in front of while she was talking about his movie appear to have some kind of diamond-shaped construct floating in space. People are saying it looks similar to something called the Tho Yor, which were these mysterious space craft that transported Force-sensitive beings from around the galaxy to different planets, such as Tython, and these beings eventually came together to form the Jedi order. Given how the logo looks like it is made of stone, it’s possible his film could be about the dawn of the Jedi. So we could possibly revisit Ahch-To or Tython. Basically a stone-age Star Wars.

From my understanding, The Acolyte will follow a young female protagonist. My guess is we’ll see how she gets involved in the Rule of Two. Maybe she becomes one of a few candidates to become the new apprentice of the current Sith-in-hiding. And we’ll eventually see her become a Sith Lord. So I think, if anything, she could be Plagueis’ master, rather than Plagueis himself. Either way, I could definitely see it tying into the Sith Eternal stuff like you mentioned. I don’t think we’ll see young Palpatine at all, unless the show has decade-spanning time jumps. Which is possible I guess. But maybe it will follow just a follower of the Sith, rather than a Sith-to-be.

If Rangers of the New Republic is supposed to be concurrent with the Mandalorian, it won’t get anywhere near the time period when Leia finds out about the First Order. Leia forming the Resistance is still 30 years away from Mandalorian.

I think you’re right about the Ahsoka show. They said it was a limited series, so it doesn’t sound like it would be enough content as a Rebels sequel of its own. I wonder why they haven’t announced it yet, though?

How will the Droid show right the wrongs of the sequel trilogy? I have a feeling it’s just gonna be light-hearted adventure stories geared towards a younger audience.

Anyway, good thoughts! I think your ideas about Cody in Bad Batch and Kenobi are gonna be spot on!

I remember someone making a version where the AOTC hologram is the prototype model. Not sure who did that though.

My sentiments line up pretty well with Idir and NFB. This was a really solid episode, and I liked how they developed Mayfield a lot. His little in-universe rants were great, and I loved the back-and-forth with the Imperial officer. Hearing Bill Burr mention Operation Cinder and Burnin Konn were such deep cuts. But not only served as little easter eggs, but these conversations developed Mayfield’s character, as well as painting a picture of the Imperial philosophy. I loved the officers line about, “People think they want freedom, but what they really want is order.” We see Imperial/First Order characters almost touch on this, but never really do. I understand wanting to keep things simple, but I think they would be so much more interesting as antagonists if we could see these characters justify their loyalty to an authoritarian regime.

Also, Din choosing to take off his mask to do what is necessary to save Grogu was a great character moment, and tied in well to his almost one-sided conversation with Mayfield. Mayfield kept picking on Din about wearing the mask and the armor, but by the end of the episode you could tell he respected Din for what he did.

It’s funny how I really didn’t care for the idea of Operation Cinder, but it is interesting how it has become an interesting story element to the post-Empire era. With characters like Mayfield and Iden Versio, we can see how some Imperials couldn’t handle the almost self-destructive orders of Cinder, but that clearly was the point. In a way, the Remnant was able to weed out the least loyal, and those that remained were near zealous to their loyalty to the Empire (almost like a sunken-cost fallacy, how could they justify their crimes if they accepted what the Empire was doing was wrong). And this leads right in to factions like the First and Final Order, who clearly are basically Imperial extremists.

At the same time, it was cool to see the Empire have a heroic moment, when they saved Din and Mayfield from the pirates, the stormtroopers cheering their return, and the officer wanting to get a drink with them. It almost makes me wish we could’ve seen the First Order and Resistance team up to take out the Sith Eternal.

No, I haven’t seen She-Ra. I’ve heard it’s good though!

I get what you’re saying about their relationship, but tbh I think Rey and Ben’s relationship is the most interesting aspect of the trilogy (at least the most compelling character dynamic). I mean I think the way it ignited fan fiction, fan videos and other creations showed how it inspired and captivated many fans.

I think a lot of the problem boils down to the fact I think they made Kylo too “evil” for evil’s sake. Kylo’s reasons for turning to the dark side are vague, and that makes his crimes harder to excuse or justify for a lot of people.

If Kylo’s motivations had been made clearer, and if you could see the reason why he did “bad” things, I think more people would’ve been open to Reylo.

I think ATLA does a good job of handling Zuko’s motivations and actions. So much so, that I think Zutara probably would have worked if they had went for it.

Wow, thanks for the nice compliments sade!! Honestly there are so many brilliant rewrite ideas around, but it interesting how a lot of them share similar beats. I’m big fan of ATLA as well, so I really enjoy your interpretation of the climax. And I totally agree, I think it would have been interesting to see Rey having to struggle to pick the violent, easy path to solve problems, vs the difficult non-violent one.

And speaking of ATLA, I feel like Zuko and Kylo Ren get compared for obvious reasons, and I wish Kylo’s redemption arc could’ve been as strong as Zuko’s! I think I share a lot of ideas with you too, NFB (interesting to know the origin of that name now!). I also thought about eventually making a separate thread for my own rewrite, but since we’re talking about I could quickly share my ideas for the Rey & Ben stuff.

I also like the idea of Rey’s dark side showing a little bit more than it did in the film. We were teased dark Rey, but no one was surprised when all it was was a vision. But, I think the idea of a dark Rey/light Ben role reversal is intriguing, but I feel like it would be hard to get Rey to that point organically and back in a 2hr film.

Plus, I feel like Rey and Kylo being the last duel in the saga feels right, and is the battle where we would feel the most tension.

So, broad strokes:

I think I would keep Palpatine, but only as a resurrected spirit, rather than having a tangible body. In this film he would be more of a force of nature rather than an individual. Meanwhile, as the legend of the last Jedi spreads, fires of rebellion are sprouting up across the galaxy. Supreme Leader Kylo Ren needs more power to maintain control, and he is desperate for a way to quell the Resistance.

So with the help of the Knights of Ren, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren finds a surprising lead. They learn from a Sith holocron that Snoke was an acolyte of Palpatine, who was on a quest to resurrect his master in exchange for knowledge and power. Kylo, in his hubris, thinks he can do what Snoke couldn’t: control the power and wisdom of this Sith phantom, and bring everlasting peace to the galaxy.

Behind the scenes, Hux has been plotting with the main Knight of Ren to overthrow Kylo Ren, because a) power and b) they don’t like the way he’s running things. So, they stage a coup and try to kill Kylo Ren, but Kylo manages to barely escape.

Kylo and Rey reconnect through the Force, and Rey and friends go on a mission to rescue/capture him. So, during a majority of Act 2, Kylo is working alongside our heroes, albeit with a lot of tension and reluctance, for obvious reasons. Plenty of space for fun character interactions. Kylo Ren has not turned back to the light just yet, but Kylo tells them that the First Order is trying to resurrect Palpatine, so they must join forces to stop this greater threat.

In the meantime, we’ll see that the new leader of the Knights of Ren volunteers to become Palpatine’s new vessel. We get a demonstration of their raw power in the dark side.

So, our heroes go on a mission to figure out how to stop someone that can come back from the dead. During the mission, they learn of the resurrection/possession ritual and its risks (that a vessel with a stronger will could send the host spirit into the void).
With the sequel trilogy being so heavily focused on identity, I like the idea of the film’s antagonistic force having the ability to challenge our characters’ identities in a dramatic way.

After we get several sequences of Kylo fighting, arguing and working with the gang, we would start seeing Kylo and Rey grow close again. But just as things are looking good, Rey confronts Kylo when she realizes that Kylo wants to use Palpatine’s spirit to solidify his rule of the galaxy, rather than destroy it like they want to do. So Kylo and Rey fight in a duel similar to their Death Star duel in TROS. And much like that duel, Rey gets the upper hand and beats Kylo, leaving to confront Palpatine on her own.

We follow as Rey goes to confront the Knights of Ren, and she duels and defeats the Knight who was serving as Palpatine’s vessel. (It’s also possible to make it where Rey gets there as they’re about to begin the ritual, and Rey kills the lead Knight in order to become the vessel instead. But, I think it might be a good idea demonstrate how the possession thing works) Rey believed that she would be strong enough, or sure enough of her own identity, to overcome Palpatine’s spirit and send him to the netherworld. But instead, her fear overwhelms her and she loses the spiritual battle, succumbing the dark side of the Force, and being possessed by Palpatine.

Meanwhile, Kylo has his come to Jesus moment, and after Ben makes amends with Poe and Finn, wanting to try and right the wrongs he has made, goes on a mission that leads him to confronting Dark Rey and dueling her (much like their duel in Act 2, but now with them on opposite sides).

They fight, and Ben manages to get the better of Rey. Even though this is his opportunity to take Palpatine’s power for himself, and rid the galaxy of the last Jedi, Ben drops his weapon and refuses to kill her. The dark side within Rey takes advantage of his compassion, and begins killing Ben (force lightning? draining his life force? force choking him?) Ben keeps trying to snap Rey out of it, and eventually he starts getting through to her. We get a sense that Rey is trying to regain control, but is struggling. (It could almost be like an exorcism)

This is when I think it would be cool to have a sequence that is different from your typical Star Wars film, where we actually go inside Rey’s head, in a sense, and see the spiritual battle between Rey and Palpatine. Instead of their opposing spirits throwing astral blasts at each other, or something dumb like that, it would be interesting if Rey overcame Palpatine’s spirit by overcoming her fear of him (and her fear of her own darkness). Once she accepts her darkness as a part of her identity, and let’s go of her fear, Palpatine loses his grip on Rey, transforming from the Dark Lord Sidious, to a shriveled old man who is afraid to die. (Definitely took this idea from Sade!)

Instead of the Jedi Force ghosts dramatically dragging Palpatine to Force hell, we see them appear and treat Palpatine with compassion, and gently escort him to the netherworld. Maybe Anakin could pick him up and carry him into the light, paralleling him picking him up and throwing him into the reactor shaft in ROTJ (Anakin’s participation could also help maintain Anakin’s role as the Chosen One). After this, Rey is free. Maybe a death & resurrection could play out in this moment, but it doesn’t have to either. I personally would rather both Ben and Rey live, so having one or both of them die, then come back would feel a little unnecessary I think.

Anyway, it’s definitely not Oscar-worthy writing, but I feel like phantom Palpatine is a good way for us to really get Dark Rey, even if it is brief, but not totally contradict her character. And this climax allow both Ben and Rey have their hero moment. In a way, their actions reflect Luke and Vader at the end of ROTJ, for better or worse. Ben lays down his weapon like a true Jedi, and Rey’s reaffirms her identity, and beats Palpatine in a more nuanced way than shooting lightning into his face.

Yeah, I agree that I like how Din and Grogu’s relationship has been developed. Their fun interaction in the ship at the beginning of the episode was really nice. But that is why is reaction didn’t work for me. I don’t think the fact he is always wearing a mask can be written off with his stoicism. I think Grogu is making Din come out of his shell more, so I wish Din would’ve just shown a little more emotion. I like the moment with him finding the ball in the wreckage, but I felt like it would’ve been nice for Din to beat himself up a little bit. Like, “I shouldn’t have left him by himself…” Basically, act the way a parent would in that situation.

And I actually just talked to my dad about that same point regarding the side characters. I feel like Cobb Vanth, Bo-Katan and Boba Fett could act as great foils to Din, that makes him become more open-minded about his beliefs on what it means to be Mandalorian.

I think my problem is that it all has felt rushed, and I think these characters could have more interesting interactions if the writing was a little bit stronger.

idir_hh said:

It looked like an ambitious student film shot on a hill somewhere in California. Sorry for the harshness but this was nowhere near what we’ve come to expect from this series.

The story was extremely rushed. One second you’re with Ashoka, the next you’ve already reached the top of the temple and you’re negotiating with Boba Fett, who then suddenly cares about the child? It felt like 3 episodes squeezed into half an episode. Don’t even get me started on the dialogue.

Lol, totally agree. The quick shots of stormtroopers running through the tall grass felt super fan-filmy.

Yeah, the dialogue was really rough in this episode. So, so wooden. I don’t see why these episodes can’t have longer dialogue scenes so these characters can be more developed, and have more fleshed out relationships.

As a Star Wars fan, I love the show. But if you try and judge the show without any of that fan bias, I think it struggles in some places. I agree with others that I think Favraeu needs to bring on another professional writer that could really elevate the narrative storytelling of future seasons. I would like to see more depth with these characters, but I guess we have to accept this show is more a simple Saturday morning serial. That’s how it has feeling for me, at least. Not a bad thing, of course.

Also, why did we get such a null reaction from Din when Grogu was kidnapped? I would have expected a more dramatic, upset response. Him desperate to chase after them, “no, this can’t be happening”, him falling to his knees in the ashes of his ship. Instead, he’s making small talk to Cara in the following scene. They’re trying to build up this father/son relationship between them, but a dad wouldn’t have acted so calmly after their child is literally kidnapped.

It is starting to feel like Filoni and Favreau are just playing with Star Wars action figures, rather than writing interesting characters. That is great if you accept that’s all the show is, but I would just like to see stronger storytelling from this show. I want it to not just be a good Star Wars show, but a good show in its own right.

On another note, since Grogu was connected to that seeing stone for awhile, I wonder if that means he did get in contact with a Jedi…

Definitely agree on the First Order civil war thing, or at the very least Hux attempting to seize power. The look Hux gave Kylo Ren at the end of TLJ said it all.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by “rediscovering families”? Do you mean Finn and Rose finding the families of stormtroopers? Rose and Finn finding members of their own families?

Right, especially considering they didn’t even spotlight the most interesting feature of the planet at this point: Vader’s Castle.

When everyone speculated about Kylo going to Mustafar, most people assumed it would feature him at his grandfather’s fortress. Instead, we see him fighting in a forest, something we didn’t know existed on Mustafar, and we don’t even get a glimpse of the castle. Instead, we have to learn in books that it is some kind of garden of iron trees outside of the castle? Very weird.

Especially considering much of the “Mustafar” concept art seems to be more bleak and grey, rather than red, I honestly think this planet wasn’t meant to be Mustafar, and it was changed to Mustafar later on during post-production. The fact there was also supposed to be a lake with a giant psychic creature residing inside further makes me think this was meant to be its own unique planet.

So then content like Vader Immortal and the Vader comics added elements to explain this apparent continuity discrepancy.

Why ruin a strong, emotional character moment with a hint to a dumb mcguffin chase three films down the road?

If anything, why not just recolor the Mustafar scenes in 9 and just make it a totally different planet, unrelated to Vader? It would definitely be easier to just regrade those scenes and make it Corvus, or some other random planet. I’m surprised you weren’t going to make this suggestion, since you’re more enthusiastic about recoloring different planets.

Honestly, I think bringing on another creator who is just a professional writer would help the show a lot. Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying the show, and I loved the last episode on a visual level. The writing just feels very simplistic, but I believe this show has so much more potential.

ZkinandBonez said:
And this might be a bit of a stretch, but the gas-mask soldiers reminded me a lot of the soldiers from Ralph Bakshi’s Wizards.

Yesss, I totally see this now that you mention it, as well as the Mononoke vibes.

Visually, this episode was incredible. Like others have said, I love the clear Yojimbo inspirations Filoni brought into this episode, and having a western standoff and a samurai duel play out simultaneously.

With that being said, I don’t really like how the Mandalorian has become some kind of sounding board for potential future spin-offs. Boba Fett, Bo-Katan, Ahsoka and Thrawn.

If these characters continue to play a role in the show, that’s fine. But at the same time, I hope certain characters, like Thrawn and Ahsoka, never show up in this show again. A part of me doesn’t like how some of them appear or are mentioned only for the sake of setting up another series. These kind of set ups do nothing for the story at hand.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying the show and having a lot of fun with it. But if were to provide any feedback, I think Favreau and Filoni are playing a dangerous game with their show. They’re walking a thin line between telling a good story, and setting up a cinematic universe. I suppose this is just the nature of this new medium.

I think this episode could’ve been even better with stronger writing. It just says something to me when more people are talking about the reveals, rather than how the story furthered the characterization of our protagonists. I wish our villains could have been more fleshed out as well, or we could have spent more time with the people of Calodan.

I would have really liked if Din had been more skeptical and suspicious of Ahsoka initially. I agree with idir_hh that it would have been more interesting if we had discovered Ahsoka along with Din, rather than be introduced to her before our protagonist. Think about it. All Din knows is that Jedi were once “enemy sorcerers” and “sworn enemies of Mandalore”. I expected a little more reservation from Din, to hand over the Child to a stranger such as this. Imagine Din walking into town and the Magistrate painting a very different picture of who this Jedi is, making Din even more suspicious. I think I would’ve enjoyed a more mysterious reveal for Ahsoka. This, combined with his attachment to the child, would make him more reluctant to give him to her, but he must because 1) this is the way, and 2) he isn’t sure if he alone can protect him from the Empire. Then, when they team up in the end, it would be even more earned.

I like how the episode with Bo-Katan showed this other side of Din. Din is close-minded and sheltered, at times, and seeing him work past certain misconceptions can be cathartic. Not taking advantage of that with what he has heard about the Jedi feels like a missed opportunity.

It’s my hope that, if they manage to reach Tython, that the child will choose to stay with Din. Then, we can move past all of this and accept that Din and the child are sticking together.