I remember someone making a version where the AOTC hologram is the prototype model. Not sure who did that though.
My sentiments line up pretty well with Idir and NFB. This was a really solid episode, and I liked how they developed Mayfield a lot. His little in-universe rants were great, and I loved the back-and-forth with the Imperial officer. Hearing Bill Burr mention Operation Cinder and Burnin Konn were such deep cuts. But not only served as little easter eggs, but these conversations developed Mayfield’s character, as well as painting a picture of the Imperial philosophy. I loved the officers line about, “People think they want freedom, but what they really want is order.” We see Imperial/First Order characters almost touch on this, but never really do. I understand wanting to keep things simple, but I think they would be so much more interesting as antagonists if we could see these characters justify their loyalty to an authoritarian regime.
Also, Din choosing to take off his mask to do what is necessary to save Grogu was a great character moment, and tied in well to his almost one-sided conversation with Mayfield. Mayfield kept picking on Din about wearing the mask and the armor, but by the end of the episode you could tell he respected Din for what he did.
It’s funny how I really didn’t care for the idea of Operation Cinder, but it is interesting how it has become an interesting story element to the post-Empire era. With characters like Mayfield and Iden Versio, we can see how some Imperials couldn’t handle the almost self-destructive orders of Cinder, but that clearly was the point. In a way, the Remnant was able to weed out the least loyal, and those that remained were near zealous to their loyalty to the Empire (almost like a sunken-cost fallacy, how could they justify their crimes if they accepted what the Empire was doing was wrong). And this leads right in to factions like the First and Final Order, who clearly are basically Imperial extremists.
At the same time, it was cool to see the Empire have a heroic moment, when they saved Din and Mayfield from the pirates, the stormtroopers cheering their return, and the officer wanting to get a drink with them. It almost makes me wish we could’ve seen the First Order and Resistance team up to take out the Sith Eternal.
No, I haven’t seen She-Ra. I’ve heard it’s good though!
I get what you’re saying about their relationship, but tbh I think Rey and Ben’s relationship is the most interesting aspect of the trilogy (at least the most compelling character dynamic). I mean I think the way it ignited fan fiction, fan videos and other creations showed how it inspired and captivated many fans.
I think a lot of the problem boils down to the fact I think they made Kylo too “evil” for evil’s sake. Kylo’s reasons for turning to the dark side are vague, and that makes his crimes harder to excuse or justify for a lot of people.
If Kylo’s motivations had been made clearer, and if you could see the reason why he did “bad” things, I think more people would’ve been open to Reylo.
I think ATLA does a good job of handling Zuko’s motivations and actions. So much so, that I think Zutara probably would have worked if they had went for it.
Wow, thanks for the nice compliments sade!! Honestly there are so many brilliant rewrite ideas around, but it interesting how a lot of them share similar beats. I’m big fan of ATLA as well, so I really enjoy your interpretation of the climax. And I totally agree, I think it would have been interesting to see Rey having to struggle to pick the violent, easy path to solve problems, vs the difficult non-violent one.
And speaking of ATLA, I feel like Zuko and Kylo Ren get compared for obvious reasons, and I wish Kylo’s redemption arc could’ve been as strong as Zuko’s! I think I share a lot of ideas with you too, NFB (interesting to know the origin of that name now!). I also thought about eventually making a separate thread for my own rewrite, but since we’re talking about I could quickly share my ideas for the Rey & Ben stuff.
I also like the idea of Rey’s dark side showing a little bit more than it did in the film. We were teased dark Rey, but no one was surprised when all it was was a vision. But, I think the idea of a dark Rey/light Ben role reversal is intriguing, but I feel like it would be hard to get Rey to that point organically and back in a 2hr film.
Plus, I feel like Rey and Kylo being the last duel in the saga feels right, and is the battle where we would feel the most tension.
So, broad strokes:
I think I would keep Palpatine, but only as a resurrected spirit, rather than having a tangible body. In this film he would be more of a force of nature rather than an individual. Meanwhile, as the legend of the last Jedi spreads, fires of rebellion are sprouting up across the galaxy. Supreme Leader Kylo Ren needs more power to maintain control, and he is desperate for a way to quell the Resistance.
So with the help of the Knights of Ren, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren finds a surprising lead. They learn from a Sith holocron that Snoke was an acolyte of Palpatine, who was on a quest to resurrect his master in exchange for knowledge and power. Kylo, in his hubris, thinks he can do what Snoke couldn’t: control the power and wisdom of this Sith phantom, and bring everlasting peace to the galaxy.
Behind the scenes, Hux has been plotting with the main Knight of Ren to overthrow Kylo Ren, because a) power and b) they don’t like the way he’s running things. So, they stage a coup and try to kill Kylo Ren, but Kylo manages to barely escape.
Kylo and Rey reconnect through the Force, and Rey and friends go on a mission to rescue/capture him. So, during a majority of Act 2, Kylo is working alongside our heroes, albeit with a lot of tension and reluctance, for obvious reasons. Plenty of space for fun character interactions. Kylo Ren has not turned back to the light just yet, but Kylo tells them that the First Order is trying to resurrect Palpatine, so they must join forces to stop this greater threat.
In the meantime, we’ll see that the new leader of the Knights of Ren volunteers to become Palpatine’s new vessel. We get a demonstration of their raw power in the dark side.
So, our heroes go on a mission to figure out how to stop someone that can come back from the dead. During the mission, they learn of the resurrection/possession ritual and its risks (that a vessel with a stronger will could send the host spirit into the void).
With the sequel trilogy being so heavily focused on identity, I like the idea of the film’s antagonistic force having the ability to challenge our characters’ identities in a dramatic way.
After we get several sequences of Kylo fighting, arguing and working with the gang, we would start seeing Kylo and Rey grow close again. But just as things are looking good, Rey confronts Kylo when she realizes that Kylo wants to use Palpatine’s spirit to solidify his rule of the galaxy, rather than destroy it like they want to do. So Kylo and Rey fight in a duel similar to their Death Star duel in TROS. And much like that duel, Rey gets the upper hand and beats Kylo, leaving to confront Palpatine on her own.
We follow as Rey goes to confront the Knights of Ren, and she duels and defeats the Knight who was serving as Palpatine’s vessel. (It’s also possible to make it where Rey gets there as they’re about to begin the ritual, and Rey kills the lead Knight in order to become the vessel instead. But, I think it might be a good idea demonstrate how the possession thing works) Rey believed that she would be strong enough, or sure enough of her own identity, to overcome Palpatine’s spirit and send him to the netherworld. But instead, her fear overwhelms her and she loses the spiritual battle, succumbing the dark side of the Force, and being possessed by Palpatine.
Meanwhile, Kylo has his come to Jesus moment, and after Ben makes amends with Poe and Finn, wanting to try and right the wrongs he has made, goes on a mission that leads him to confronting Dark Rey and dueling her (much like their duel in Act 2, but now with them on opposite sides).
They fight, and Ben manages to get the better of Rey. Even though this is his opportunity to take Palpatine’s power for himself, and rid the galaxy of the last Jedi, Ben drops his weapon and refuses to kill her. The dark side within Rey takes advantage of his compassion, and begins killing Ben (force lightning? draining his life force? force choking him?) Ben keeps trying to snap Rey out of it, and eventually he starts getting through to her. We get a sense that Rey is trying to regain control, but is struggling. (It could almost be like an exorcism)
This is when I think it would be cool to have a sequence that is different from your typical Star Wars film, where we actually go inside Rey’s head, in a sense, and see the spiritual battle between Rey and Palpatine. Instead of their opposing spirits throwing astral blasts at each other, or something dumb like that, it would be interesting if Rey overcame Palpatine’s spirit by overcoming her fear of him (and her fear of her own darkness). Once she accepts her darkness as a part of her identity, and let’s go of her fear, Palpatine loses his grip on Rey, transforming from the Dark Lord Sidious, to a shriveled old man who is afraid to die. (Definitely took this idea from Sade!)
Instead of the Jedi Force ghosts dramatically dragging Palpatine to Force hell, we see them appear and treat Palpatine with compassion, and gently escort him to the netherworld. Maybe Anakin could pick him up and carry him into the light, paralleling him picking him up and throwing him into the reactor shaft in ROTJ (Anakin’s participation could also help maintain Anakin’s role as the Chosen One). After this, Rey is free. Maybe a death & resurrection could play out in this moment, but it doesn’t have to either. I personally would rather both Ben and Rey live, so having one or both of them die, then come back would feel a little unnecessary I think.
Anyway, it’s definitely not Oscar-worthy writing, but I feel like phantom Palpatine is a good way for us to really get Dark Rey, even if it is brief, but not totally contradict her character. And this climax allow both Ben and Rey have their hero moment. In a way, their actions reflect Luke and Vader at the end of ROTJ, for better or worse. Ben lays down his weapon like a true Jedi, and Rey’s reaffirms her identity, and beats Palpatine in a more nuanced way than shooting lightning into his face.
Yeah, I agree that I like how Din and Grogu’s relationship has been developed. Their fun interaction in the ship at the beginning of the episode was really nice. But that is why is reaction didn’t work for me. I don’t think the fact he is always wearing a mask can be written off with his stoicism. I think Grogu is making Din come out of his shell more, so I wish Din would’ve just shown a little more emotion. I like the moment with him finding the ball in the wreckage, but I felt like it would’ve been nice for Din to beat himself up a little bit. Like, “I shouldn’t have left him by himself…” Basically, act the way a parent would in that situation.
And I actually just talked to my dad about that same point regarding the side characters. I feel like Cobb Vanth, Bo-Katan and Boba Fett could act as great foils to Din, that makes him become more open-minded about his beliefs on what it means to be Mandalorian.
I think my problem is that it all has felt rushed, and I think these characters could have more interesting interactions if the writing was a little bit stronger.
It looked like an ambitious student film shot on a hill somewhere in California. Sorry for the harshness but this was nowhere near what we’ve come to expect from this series.
The story was extremely rushed. One second you’re with Ashoka, the next you’ve already reached the top of the temple and you’re negotiating with Boba Fett, who then suddenly cares about the child? It felt like 3 episodes squeezed into half an episode. Don’t even get me started on the dialogue.
Lol, totally agree. The quick shots of stormtroopers running through the tall grass felt super fan-filmy.
Yeah, the dialogue was really rough in this episode. So, so wooden. I don’t see why these episodes can’t have longer dialogue scenes so these characters can be more developed, and have more fleshed out relationships.
As a Star Wars fan, I love the show. But if you try and judge the show without any of that fan bias, I think it struggles in some places. I agree with others that I think Favraeu needs to bring on another professional writer that could really elevate the narrative storytelling of future seasons. I would like to see more depth with these characters, but I guess we have to accept this show is more a simple Saturday morning serial. That’s how it has feeling for me, at least. Not a bad thing, of course.
Also, why did we get such a null reaction from Din when Grogu was kidnapped? I would have expected a more dramatic, upset response. Him desperate to chase after them, “no, this can’t be happening”, him falling to his knees in the ashes of his ship. Instead, he’s making small talk to Cara in the following scene. They’re trying to build up this father/son relationship between them, but a dad wouldn’t have acted so calmly after their child is literally kidnapped.
It is starting to feel like Filoni and Favreau are just playing with Star Wars action figures, rather than writing interesting characters. That is great if you accept that’s all the show is, but I would just like to see stronger storytelling from this show. I want it to not just be a good Star Wars show, but a good show in its own right.
On another note, since Grogu was connected to that seeing stone for awhile, I wonder if that means he did get in contact with a Jedi…
Definitely agree on the First Order civil war thing, or at the very least Hux attempting to seize power. The look Hux gave Kylo Ren at the end of TLJ said it all.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by “rediscovering families”? Do you mean Finn and Rose finding the families of stormtroopers? Rose and Finn finding members of their own families?
Right, especially considering they didn’t even spotlight the most interesting feature of the planet at this point: Vader’s Castle.
When everyone speculated about Kylo going to Mustafar, most people assumed it would feature him at his grandfather’s fortress. Instead, we see him fighting in a forest, something we didn’t know existed on Mustafar, and we don’t even get a glimpse of the castle. Instead, we have to learn in books that it is some kind of garden of iron trees outside of the castle? Very weird.
Especially considering much of the “Mustafar” concept art seems to be more bleak and grey, rather than red, I honestly think this planet wasn’t meant to be Mustafar, and it was changed to Mustafar later on during post-production. The fact there was also supposed to be a lake with a giant psychic creature residing inside further makes me think this was meant to be its own unique planet.
So then content like Vader Immortal and the Vader comics added elements to explain this apparent continuity discrepancy.
Why ruin a strong, emotional character moment with a hint to a dumb mcguffin chase three films down the road?
If anything, why not just recolor the Mustafar scenes in 9 and just make it a totally different planet, unrelated to Vader? It would definitely be easier to just regrade those scenes and make it Corvus, or some other random planet. I’m surprised you weren’t going to make this suggestion, since you’re more enthusiastic about recoloring different planets.
Honestly, I think bringing on another creator who is just a professional writer would help the show a lot. Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying the show, and I loved the last episode on a visual level. The writing just feels very simplistic, but I believe this show has so much more potential.
ZkinandBonez said:
And this might be a bit of a stretch, but the gas-mask soldiers reminded me a lot of the soldiers from Ralph Bakshi’s Wizards.
Yesss, I totally see this now that you mention it, as well as the Mononoke vibes.
Visually, this episode was incredible. Like others have said, I love the clear Yojimbo inspirations Filoni brought into this episode, and having a western standoff and a samurai duel play out simultaneously.
With that being said, I don’t really like how the Mandalorian has become some kind of sounding board for potential future spin-offs. Boba Fett, Bo-Katan, Ahsoka and Thrawn.
If these characters continue to play a role in the show, that’s fine. But at the same time, I hope certain characters, like Thrawn and Ahsoka, never show up in this show again. A part of me doesn’t like how some of them appear or are mentioned only for the sake of setting up another series. These kind of set ups do nothing for the story at hand.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m enjoying the show and having a lot of fun with it. But if were to provide any feedback, I think Favreau and Filoni are playing a dangerous game with their show. They’re walking a thin line between telling a good story, and setting up a cinematic universe. I suppose this is just the nature of this new medium.
I think this episode could’ve been even better with stronger writing. It just says something to me when more people are talking about the reveals, rather than how the story furthered the characterization of our protagonists. I wish our villains could have been more fleshed out as well, or we could have spent more time with the people of Calodan.
I would have really liked if Din had been more skeptical and suspicious of Ahsoka initially. I agree with idir_hh that it would have been more interesting if we had discovered Ahsoka along with Din, rather than be introduced to her before our protagonist. Think about it. All Din knows is that Jedi were once “enemy sorcerers” and “sworn enemies of Mandalore”. I expected a little more reservation from Din, to hand over the Child to a stranger such as this. Imagine Din walking into town and the Magistrate painting a very different picture of who this Jedi is, making Din even more suspicious. I think I would’ve enjoyed a more mysterious reveal for Ahsoka. This, combined with his attachment to the child, would make him more reluctant to give him to her, but he must because 1) this is the way, and 2) he isn’t sure if he alone can protect him from the Empire. Then, when they team up in the end, it would be even more earned.
I like how the episode with Bo-Katan showed this other side of Din. Din is close-minded and sheltered, at times, and seeing him work past certain misconceptions can be cathartic. Not taking advantage of that with what he has heard about the Jedi feels like a missed opportunity.
It’s my hope that, if they manage to reach Tython, that the child will choose to stay with Din. Then, we can move past all of this and accept that Din and the child are sticking together.
From my understanding, the whole point of giving Anakin an apprentice was to get him to mature, and learn to let people go, which he eventually would have to once she finished her training. Things just ended up blowing up in their face. Surprise surprise.
Chase, that looks awesome!
Something that I would love to see in future fan edits is to make the planets more recognizable from their space establishing shots. To me, when you see that shot it’ll be instantly memorable.
I think all of your judgement calls are pretty solid so far.
I actually haven’t seen smudger9’s first TV-to-movie edit of Clone Wars, but the idea of hybridizing bits of different episodes together to manufacture new narrative through-lines is a really interesting idea. Keeping that whole arc similar to how smudger9 does it would be a cool way to pay tribute to him as well, since he’s definitely a pioneer for this whole concept.
Seeing that concept applied throughout the series, where appropriate, would definitely make watching through it a fresh experience, even for people who have watched the series before.
For those interested in (I’m talking to you RogueLeader 😄 ), here’s a very early, unrefined version of how the arrival at Jedha (ex-Pasaana) would look and sound: https://youtu.be/LrnAIDbjwkQ
So cool! I think it could fit right in.
We must be watching two different shows, because Bombad Jedi is some of the best television I have ever seen.
EDIT: And it is clear foreshadowing to the Darth Jar Jar reveal.
I’m also pretty sure Nev (perhaps someone else, Ridley?) did an edit where the ground didn’t break between Rey and Kylo, and Rey just ran off on her own accord.
Maybe Digmod? I’m not sure who did that effect.
Yeah, I think you’re right, Nev. I’m pretty sure he did make that change for his TFA edit.
EDIT: According to his website…
Removed the ground ripping apart separating Rey and Kylo Ren; superimposed same shot of Rey and Kylo Ren when Rey shuts down her light saber looking across ravine at Kylo Ren. Now the two cropped images meet removing the gaping hole.
Well you can’t really do much with them not having a droid.
I’m also pretty sure Nev (perhaps someone else, Ridley?) did an edit where the ground didn’t break between Rey and Kylo, and Rey just ran off on her own accord.
Beyond that, you would just need to cut the First Order reacting to the planet falling apart, and also replace the shots of the Falcon and Black Squadron escaping the erupting planet (and Starkiller bursting into a star). That would be the biggest thing.
You would have the shots of Rey and Chewie boarding the Falcon, and then inside the ship, then the next usable shot would be when the camera pans to follow the X-Wings, as them and the Falcon jump into hyperspace. So you would have to fill in those gaps somehow.
Awesome! If you could experiment with the dialogue tweaks, that would be the biggest thing. At the minimum, that would be enough to make the change work. With that in mind, here is a few things I think could be altered to hammer this idea across.
Two dialogue tweaks. When Rey says it, and the First Order officer says it (the officer could be redubbed).
Color grade the planet to better match how Jedha looked in Rogue One.
The establishing shot of the planet could be altered to where there is a thin asteroid belt around it (sort of like D’Qar), and add lava inside the large canyon that runs across the planet surface (to imply that’s where the crust was cracked open by the Death Star).
We could take an unused arrival shot of Jedha from one of the Rogue One trailers where the U-Wing flies past a giant fallen statue of a Jedi. All we would need to do would be to cover the U-Wing and its shadow with the Falcon. It is a brief shot, but I believe you can find this trailer in 4K so the quality would be good.
Optional, but we could use Michael Giacchino’s exotic Jedha motif when the gang arrives at the planet.
Also, I’m glad you like the Starkiller base idea! With the search for the map being the main McGuffin in the movie, I felt like they didn’t explain it very well, nor did they follow it through to the final act in the movie (instead having R2 conveniently have it in his databank the whole time!)
Another idea I had was to alter the opening crawl of TFA a little. Instead of vaguely describing Lor San Tekka as an “old ally” of Leia’s, you could have it say:
Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where a former Imperial cartographer has discovered the missing piece to Luke’s whereabouts…
The idea I want to imply is that Lor San Tekka originally was looking for the first Jedi temple during the days of the Empire (probably because Palpatine wanted to destroy any trace of the Jedi). At some point during his research, he deserted, maybe because he’s from Alderaan and he felt betrayed by the Empire after it was destroyed (this could be why he says, “To me, she’s royalty” in reference to Leia). He stopped looking for it until Luke vanished, which is when he finally decided to complete his search.
This is why the First Order was able to recover a part of the map from the archives of the Empire. You could then interpret Tekka’s first line, “This will begin to make things right” to also mean that this is a way for him to make up for helping the Empire erase the Jedi from history. He now realizes that “without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force”.
Some other dialogue changes could be made throughout the movie. Like when Kylo Ren speaks to Lor San Tekka, he could say something like, “The map, we know you finished it. And now you’re going to give it to the First Order.”
Either way, I think it gives the character that legendary actor Max von Sydow portrays some extra depth, despite his brief appearance. It also gives at least some semblance of an explanation for why this map even exists. So many people after TFA were confused by its purpose, wondering if Luke had left the map so someone could find him. We learn in TLJ that this isn’t the case, so having a clearer explanation that doesn’t contradict TLJ would benefit TFA a lot in my opinion, as well as alleviate some of the weaknesses of JJ Abrams’ mystery box storytelling.
Regarding all the discussion about turning Pasaana into Jedha, I’m totally down to help with that! That’s a change I’ve wanted to make from the beginning, there’s several ways you can implement this change in interesting ways, and there are a lot of good reasons to do so, I think.
I think if one were to try to get rid of the superweapon aspect of Starkiller Base, you could make the mission 1) Get the the other half of the map to Skywalker, and 2) Rescue Rey. It would make a lot of sense to make this change, since most of the film revolves around the search for Skywalker, then it gets sort of forgotten in the final act in favor another “destroy the superweapon” climax.
Instead of Han and Finn capturing Phasma in order for her to lower the shields, you could change the screen graphics to show the larger portion of the map that they need. Basically, Phasma is forced to give them the other half of the map, which Kylo Ren says they have at different points in the film. So no planetary shield, they drop out of hyperspace close to the planet only to not be detected by their sensors.
By implementing new computer screen inserts, as well as First Order officer/X-Wing pilot off-screen dialogue, you could reestablish the Oscillator as a planetary-scale tractor beam. After Rey escapes, the First Order could activate it so she (nor the Falcon) can escape. This is when the Resistance swoops in to try and help destroy it so they can escape with the map. They struggle with destroying it, which is when Han and the gang come in with their explosives. The “tractor beam” explodes, but the end is altered so the planet doesn’t explode.
And you would just cut the Resistance briefing scene because it actually isn’t necessary if you think about it.
Obviously easier said than done, but I think the best reason for even wanting to try this approach is for the fact that it keeps the movie’s focus on finding the map to Skywalker from beginning to end.
Just wanted to chime in and say this sounds great! Would love to check it out. Also, I definitely think Version 2 of the barrel transition works better! Great job with that.
It just occurred to me that the Child probably is a strand-cast despite Kuiil’s doubts in Chapter 7. We’ve kind of just taken it for granted that Yoda’s Species has now been established as aging differently from other species and that a 50 year old baby is normal to them, but then I looked up Yaddle (the female Yoda’s Species from TPM) and noticed that not only does she have very youthful features, but she also has brown hair. The Child on the other hand is somewhat wrinkled and has grey hairs just like Yoda. There might actually be something to the theory that Dr. Pershing’s reference to “the original donor” is the not the Child but whoever it was cloned/engineered from.
So you’re saying Baby Yoda could literally be a baby clone of Yoda? I personally don’t think this is the case, but at the same time I would love it just for the fact everyone calls him Baby Yoda already. 😂
This was before Season 7 came out, but HelloGreedo followed an abridged order for the Clone Wars that followed some of the stronger arcs of the series. This might be of some use.
https://mobile.twitter.com/hellogreedo/status/918548838130085888?lang=en
I’ve said this before, but I like the idea of doing standalone prequel and sequel bookends to the original trilogy. So five films total, consolidating the best of the PT and the ST into two separate films, and leaving the OT untouched.
