RogueLeader

GMatias said:

One thing I’ve been thinking of is what Ben could do post-Kylo if an edit were to have him survive Exegol. I’ve seen ideas of him going off as a Caine-in-Kung-Fu-type nomad to try & atone for his actions, but that doesn’t seem like enough of a benefit for all the trouble of redeeming him. Even if he straight-up defected right after Exegol, yes he wouldn’t part of the First Order’s arsenal, but that still seems like missing an opportunity.

This is an interesting idea, GMatias! I’ve also thought about how redeemed-Ben could take advantage of his role as Supreme Leader, I don’t think I’ve heard this exact idea before. My idea was to replace Finn’s ADR line at the end of the film, “People are rising up all over the galaxy” with a random Resistance person saying, “Ren has commanded the First Order to surrender!”

Regardless of the debate over whether he should live or not, it is interesting to consider the practicality of some of potential endings where Ben lives.

I definitely think Ben meeting Rey on Tatooine would probably be the simplest option. I’ve actually made some concept images for how it could look, and determined which shots could be used to accomplish it. I guess the question would then be whether the movie ends with Rey and Ben on Tatooine together, or Ben staying on Tatooine while he watches Rey leave on the Falcon.

I know others have mentioned the idea of Ben exiling himself on Ahch-To at the end of the movie. I believe Pablo Hidalgo said he actually suggested this idea when TROS was being developed. I think the best way someone could construct this ending would be to use shots of Ben standing on the edge of the Death Star ruins, before he talks with Han’s memory, and make it so Ben standing on that rock outcrop where Luke becomes one with the Force.

Wasn’t Nev working on something where he was trying to replicate the movement of the original
Star Wars crawl? I’d be great if you could replicate the speed, blur and shakiness of those original crawls in After Effects. Basically simulating all those little imperfections that give it character.

I was going to make this suggestion as well! Seems like it would be the easiest way to name drop the Sith in the OT.

Axlanian, whenever you re-record, would you mind redoing my old lines that are currently there?

”What’s your operating number?”

”Ugh, kill me now…”

Just thought it might be nice to have those as back up just in case.

Nice, axlanian. You have a much better stormtrooper voice than I do. 😂

Sorry, I meant in aurebesh.

Besides graffiti, I didn’t think to much extra would be necessary. You can already hear blaster shots and stuff in the distance I believe, during certain points of the Kijimi sequence. I think adding more sounds of distant blaster fire, explosions, even battle cries, could help keep that in the audiences mind. It looks like the stormtroopers are raiding houses, so you could even have something like a distant First Order announcement saying anyone harboring insurgents will be punished, or something like that.

Right. He’s in that pose with his lightsaber overhead, but it is old man Luke from Crait.

Faraday, or someone else who does graphic design, maybe we could get another piece of graffiti that says “Skywalker” or “Skywalker Lives!”

And even without the symbolism regarding the unstable lightsaber, it also gives us some actual consequences to it being broken in the last film, beyond Rey putting a leather strap around the hilt. Plus, it gives us a cool new effect that is visually interesting.

Speaking of the puppet show, the puppets are almost done (using Faraday’s designs) and I’ll hopefully get a chance to film them this weekend or next week.

If I had to pick one, I would probably go with the Acolyte. I’m looking forward to the franchise moving beyond the era of the Skywalker Saga. I think, if handled correctly, it could help Star Wars as a brand grow. The main Saga has a lot of context and baggage that I think makes it difficult for new fans to get into it, so a new series that started from scratch could be a great way to bring in new audiences and leave behind the chains of expectations that content like the Sequel Trilogy had.

But to be fair, I’m personally the most excited for Obi-Wan Kenobi at this point. But I think the Acolyte is arguably the most important out of the bunch. It’s success could have a big impact on the future of the franchise.

That is interesting. Thanks for sharing that J. I agree with you, it sort of defeats the purpose of the galaxy being too hopeless to fight at that point. So the novel is saying people still had hope, but just didn’t hear the message? Weird. Like, what’s the point of that? Seems like they wanted a logical answer for why no one came, rather than a thematic one.

Right. Or have someone like Qui-Gon comment more on his problems with the Order. We know he is a little bit of a rebel, Obi-Wan says as much when he mentions it.

OBI-WAN : Master, you could be sitting on the Council by now if you would just follow the code. They will not go along with you this time.

But not a lot of time is spent on these issues.

It makes me think of Pop Culture Detective’s video on the flaws of the Jedi Order. It’s a great analysis, but the ironic thing to me is that PCD seems to believe these issues were unintentional on Lucas’ part. I’m more of the belief that these flaws were intentional, although sometimes it is hard to tell when you listen to Lucas’ interviews (correct me if I’m wrong). I also think their flaws not being discussed in the text more directly made it unclear to fans if Lucas had any self-awareness when he wrote the Jedi this way.

This seems to be one of the reasons fans seem to be enjoying the High Republic content that we’re now getting. We get to see the Jedi at their best, and a functioning Republic that actually gets shit done. So if you read those books, we see how the Republic and the Order began to decay from within by the time we get to the Prequels.

Talking about the issues with the Jedi Order has always been fun for me, since it’s flaws have become pretty integral to the conversation. It does make me wish TROS had made a clearer statement on the future of the Jedi. Rey reaffirms the necessity of the Jedi, but never indicates whether or not she will make the same mistakes as the past Jedi did. Despite its flaws, that was one reason I liked the DOTF script.

TROS Rey:

REY: (softly) Be with me. Be with me. Be with me. (opens her eyes) They’re not with me. Ugh.

LEIA: Rey. Be patient.

REY: (sighs) I’m starting to think it isn’t impossible… to hear the voices of the Jedi who came before.

DOTF Rey:

REY: ‘Balance.’ Dark suffocates the light. Light extinguishes the dark. Over and over. How is that balance?

LUKE: I know that anger. I had it. My father had it too.

REY: So says my master. And his master before him. A thousand masters, so eager to tell us how to live.

Pretty stark contrast. While it isn’t perfect, I at least can appreciate the effort to comment on the Jedi’s problems and how they need to change. But I think I would’ve had Luke play a more active role in teaching Rey on how the new Jedi need to change.

But regarding Obi-Wan’s line, I think it should be kept as-is. If you’re going with the line change for ESB so Obi says, “There you will find Yoda, a Jedi master who instructed me”, then the line “Was I any different when you taught me” is still valid. I recall someone shortening it to “Was I any different” but it creates this awkward pause. You could possibly make it “Was I any different when my master taught me”, but again, I just don’t think it is necessary.

To be fair, I’m the one who originally suggested this idea (though not originally for Ascendant), but even I’m not totally sold on the line that replaces 3PO’s Babu Frik line (but it is more of a matter with what is available than Sherlock’s excellent work and effort).

I think you’re right that it isn’t that big of a deal, which is why I don’t think anyone would be super heartbroken if we decide it doesn’t work. I think my original intent was that the just to make the logic of the movie a little cleaner. Plus, the idea that you’re replacing nonsense with something that could potentially serve the main character’s arc. May not work though.

I actually think Jar Jar is playing a great devil’s advocate role for this idea, because it does require a bit of work to figure this shit out.

That’s actually why I think having a more extended vision montage, in the vein of Dom’s edit of Kylo touching Vader’s helmet, would be beneficial to the moment she touches the blade. Rey blinks right as she says, “No”, in that shot where she holds the dagger. You could potentially slow her blink down, as if she were closing her eyes to focus, then go into the vision sequence. Get a few shots displaying Rey’s “darkness”, and she’s rewarded with a glimpse of the Death Star. Then Kylo interrupts her.

I think something like that could potentially show more intent regarding what Rey did to obtain that knowledge. So the audience isn’t left wondering, “If Rey just kept holding it in the cave, would it have eventually shown her the location of the Wayfinder?”

Dance number?! Now I gotta keep reading. 😂

Also, please keep in mind that any critiques I may have are coming from a place of admiration, because I’ve really enjoyed everything you’ve written between each draft and I like seeing it improve. I actually think it has gotten better with each draft!

Well anymore Leia is a big improvement. I’d like to see you implement a bit more of her scenes/dialogue from TROS into your next draft as well if you can.

Lol, really? You haven’t played Knights of the Old Republic? Sorry for spoiling the game for you then!

I definitely agree with the idea of Finn helping to liberate the stormtroopers being a major plot point for the story. It’s kind of what you’re saying about Hux vs Kylo, which I also agree with. When you look at the last two films, these two plot points feel like essential, if not inevitable plot points to have in the final chapter.

When thinking about my own rewrite (or at least my ideas for a rewrite), that’s what I try to think about when it comes to what to do about all of the characters. Kind of like with Poe, when you look at TFA to TLJ, clearly we see a hero learning to become a leader, so in IX, we have to see that come to fruition, and him becoming that leader has to be his arc.

Ironically, TROS touches on all of these things, but in the most surface level way possible, so it is nice to see in your version these things take center stage, rather than afterthoughts to the Palpatine goose chase.

Speaking of which, I’m curious if you are keeping the spirit possession stuff in the next draft. It is a compelling idea, but as I’m reading it, I do feel like it leads you into similar problems with just having Kylo unconscious for an act of the film. It feels like we’re not really getting Kylo, or feeling his character a lot. It’s like he’s being overshadowed by whatever is possessing him. Kind of like when I read the DotF, it’s hard for me to picture Adam Driver acting out some of those scenes.

From the sound of your new conflict between Rey and Kylo, I’m guessing not. I do love that conflict, by the way! As the filmmakers have said, IX was always meant to be Leia’s movie, but with her death, unfortunately she could only be in it so much. The idea of writing her out of it tends to be a common idea, or she dies really early on, which does happen in your previous drafts. But, the idea of making the central conflict for Rey and Kylo revolve around saving Leia is really interesting. For one, it’s a great parallel to Padmé, and a nice way to mirror that conflict. And I can see it having interesting
meta narrative implications.

When it comes to Kylo, or the Stormtroopers, or the Officers, the important thing is that as they align themselves with our heroes, that it happen at a believable progression. I know we only have one “movie” to work with, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of setup -> buildup -> payoff. This was something I wasn’t too fond of with your initial drafts, because it felt like the stormtroopers and Kylo aligned themselves ideologically with our heroes rather quickly. What you did with your following draft, where Finn’s big speech didn’t work, was rather amusing and kind of goes in that direction of what I’m talking about.

Plus, slow progressing these relationships are a good way to maintain conflict between the characters. The longer they have ideological differences, the more they can challenge each other in each scene.

For example, I think there is a lot of great potential with the officers like Ventess (I keep saying “Ventress” in my head, lol), especially to butt heads with Poe. I like the idea of the officers being harder to really “join” the Resistance than the stormtroopers. Maybe they’re really only helping them because they have their Supreme Leader prisoner, and their loyal to him and not to Hux. But this gives Poe and Ventess time to talk about why they believe in each other side, and eventually they come to some mutual understanding.

I’ve talked about this before in other threads, but I felt like a missed opportunity of the ST, that could’ve set it apart from the OT, was to show the “reunification” of the Republic. Sure, the Rebels restored the Republic, but the Empire, and even the First Order, came from the Republic too. At the end of the OT, it seems like they just tried to get rid of the Empire, but the Imperials were still there. It would be interesting if through the understanding between Poe and Ventess, it leads to some kind of peace or reintegration of the two factions. But then again, maybe that doesn’t align with what the political allegory should be for this film.

But more on Kylo, I do think something that would be beneficial to the story would be if Kylo didn’t just flip from bad to good. I like the idea of Kylo having to work with our heroes a little reluctantly, whether be as a prisoner or what, and he still has his own goes, but as the story progresses, he might learn from the other characters and realize how he has been wrong. I know your new draft is gonna have Kylo it in more, but that is a definite issue imo with your previous version. I feel like there is a few missed opportunities to have Kylo interact with the various characters of the Resistance. But even when he is working with them, I like the idea that he still has his own agenda. Like, he believes after they work together to take down Hux and his traitorous Knights, he’d be able to retake control of the galaxy again. So in a way he still is a bit of an antagonist even if they are working together. And I feel like that bad-to-good shift shouldn’t really happen until the end of Act 2/beginning of Act 3.

Again, I’m just thinking out loud. Obviously they don’t have to be this way. Just suggestions that I think can help make the story more engaging up until the climax.

Speaking of engaging, maybe it is more of an issue because it is written word rather than visual, but I do feel like I personally lose a little interest during the simulation runs. I know it is sort of necessary to acclimate the two groups, but I feel like the stakes aren’t as a high as they should be, for the final film in the saga, since they are just practicing. Then again, this time does allow our characters to interact instead of chasing senseless MacGuffins.
But maybe it is just because I struggle keeping up with the action of space combat when it is just prose. Maybe it would help if there was B Plot with action, maybe Hux and the Knights chasing leads and destroying Resistance cells, while the A Plot were our heroes prepping for the final battle or whatever. That might help raise the stakes of their predicament.

And maybe you did this and I just skipped over it, but I guess what could help raise the stakes is the fact that the bulk of the Resistance, and the only piece of Kylo’s First Order faction, are on this single ship. One ship amongst a galaxy full of overwhelming enemies and scattered allies. And this one ship could become a microcosm of what the galaxy could the potentially be: A unified people, despite their differences.

But, I don’t know know how much else has change in your newest draft, so much of this may be totally pointless! Anyway, I hope you don’t mind me rambling on like this. Definitely do what you want to see. This is your rewrite after all. Maybe these are some suggestions that can get your creative juices flowing, but I’m excited to see what you have regardless if you use any of this or not!

PS: It took me awhile to write this post and I’ve since read the dance scene. I wasn’t sure what to expect with the festivities, but I really enjoyed it actually! It was a good moment for our characters to bond like normal people.

Interesting. Did it just conveniently sync up with her saying, “No you’re not, you-“ or whatever?

At that point, I wonder why you couldn’t just insert that line into the theatrical version of the film.

Right, Sparky. The way this guy describes the differences, though, he makes it sound like those major differences were actually filmed. At the most, the differences only vary from the JediPaxis’ initial leak and the final film, because like you said Sparky, these were changes made during late production/post-production/reshoots.

There’s no way the “Abrams cut” would be so drastically different from what we got. What he describes is almost an entirely different movie. At the most, what JediPaxis described in his initial leaks is probably the closest thing to an alternate cut of this film that could potentially exist in some kind of assembly form.

So with that in mind, it kind of nullifies the rest of what this guy says. Sounds like he’s just trying to set up some Snyder cut narrative.

That is a totally fair point, Peter. I actually think someone else made this same point.

In a way, adding Leia’s reciprocating kiss would be the writer’s/director’s way of validating Han’s behavior through Leia, making it seem okay. He acts predatory, and Leia says no, but then Han kisses her, and she rewards him by then kissing him back and wrapping her arms around him.

At least in the way it is edited theatrically, the very least Leia does is sort of go along with the kiss after Han initiates it. But after 3PO interrupts them, she leaves without saying anything else to Han.

It is still not great. It’s sort of a lose/lose either way you go, with what we have to work with. So in a way, it’s better to leave it as-is, and don’t have Leia verbally condone his behavior.

I’ve been reading back through your most recent half-finished draft, and I wanted to mention something that I liked.

I like how you actually used some of Leia’s lines from the film. Although these rewrites don’t have the constraints the actual films had, I do like the idea of writing Leia in a way as-if we were writing with those constraints.

I know this was a part of your earlier drafts too, but my own rewrite had sort of been drifting to Rey and Kylo having a duel on a Star Destroyer bridge in Act 1, and Kylo also being betrayed by his allies mid-battle.

Originally I had the idea of Kylo being alone and having to escape the coup-attempt, then it became a race between the Resistance and First Order for who could capture him first. I always felt the coup angle was a good way to have Kylo be forced to ally himself with our heroes, which reminds me of a similar event in a Star Wars Legends story: Knight of the Old Republic.

Revan dueled Bastila Shan on the bridge of his ship when Malik fired upon it, which knocked Revan out. Bastila and the Jedi used that opportunity to erase Revan’s memories and realign back to the Jedi cause.
There are already a lot of parallels between Revan/Bastila and Kylo/Rey, so my mind began to drift in that direction. But I can’t tell if readers would see it as plagiarism, or an intentional rhyming of history.

So it is really funny to me how you also drifted to a similar event. Did that also inspire you at all? I can’t recall if your earlier drafts had Rey dueling Kylo at the time of the crash.

I’m also really digging how you’re handling the stormtrooper stuff, with them reuniting the soldiers with their families. It does make sense for that to be the thing to break their conditioning. A part of me feels like it was happening too early in the film, though. Like, it feels as if it should be something that they do leading up to the final act. But, having them hijack a Star Destroyer early in Act 1, then dealing with the crew is a convenient way for them to deal with this issue, though, and I guess that has to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I feel like something the DotF script had, which I think was necessary, was a moment where Finn sort of had a reminder of that the other Stormtroopers need to be saved. Finn doesn’t show much thought about it in 7 and 8, so having a moment like that is a nice way to set up the direction Finn’s story would go in for this film.

Wanted to share an old idea I had regarding the Kylo vision.

RogueLeader said:

An idea for TFA

I think it would be interesting if we actually gave Kylo a vision when he prays to Vader’s mask in TFA. Basically, it should illustrate “The Power of the Darkness” and provide some insight into Kylo Ren’s motivation to join the dark side, whether it be for power, order, or something else.

I don’t necessarily have an idea for specifics, but I do have two ideas in mind. At some point, it would be cool to see a shot of Anakin, exactly like this from the ROTS teaser, except Anakin’s face could transform like this concept art.

This was always an appealing piece of art to me, and this would be a clever way to incorporate it without having the lore issues of having a schizophrenic Anakin/Vader Force spirit. I have been considering incorporating Anakin’s Force ghost into The Rise of Skywalker somehow, and I think it would be nice to somehow establish who Anakin is/what he looks like within this trilogy, because if you’ve never seen the other films you might be like, “Who is this guy?”

Secondly, this would be another opportunity to foreshadow Palpatine’s connection to Ben Solo, Snoke, and the mask of Vader. I imagine you could have Vader dialogue since TROS implies Kylo Ren has heard Vader speak to him (although it was in fact Sidious). You would also get a nice parallel between Rey and Kylo, both receiving visions that push them forward on their journeys, one from the darkness and one from the light.

You can say it doesn’t necessarily contradict TLJ, but it was totally unnecessary, in my opinion.

Your answer is beautifully thought out, but I guarantee you that Abrams nor Terrio took the time to rationalize their choice as much as you have.

I think they made Rey a Palpatine for a few reasons.

1. To give fanboys a reason why Rey was so powerful.
2. To give her a personal reason to hate Palpatine.
3. To mirror Luke’s own connection to Vader, creating another needless parallel to the OT.

Again, you can rationalize it, but there was no legitimate reason for them to go back on Rey’s parents being bad people that didn’t care about her. Even you’ve admitted that could’ve been handled better. For Abrams and Terrio to say they actually did love her, and abandoned her for a reason? And they sold her to Unkar Plutt, of all people? They couldn’t have thought of a dozen other safer places to take her? It is just ridiculous, and treats the audience with no respect. To totally go back on what the previous movie established.

Her being a Palpatine, in my subjective opinion, is just so much less interesting than what TLJ on its own set up. Giving Rey this answer makes her path so much clearer. Everything you said about her character arc could have easily been accomplished without her being a Palpatine, and been less muddled. But I guess the only way Rey could be that powerful is if her power came from a man…

I’m glad you’re getting something good out of this movie. You’re clearly a intelligent person. I just hate that you’ve probably put more thought into this idea than I think the actual filmmakers did.

I don’t think having one Palpatine line makes it obvious that Palpatine is the one talking to him. I mean, we would hear Palpatine, Vader and Snoke, so arguably Vader (or the dark side) is just showing him a vision of different voices and events. It could arguably be just frame it as a memory of Vader’s, when Palpatine said that to him in ROTS. I also think Palpatine’s line is sort of important to contextualize Kylo’s belief of the Jedi philosophy being destructive to stability and order.

But, alternatively, you could potentially use these Vader’s lines instead:

(Construct this line) Vader: Destroy the Jedi.

Vader: End this constructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy. It is your destiny…

I appreciate you taking the time to mock this up, Sade!

I see what you’re saying. The biggest issue is definitely the timing of the music. I feel like the dialogue would need to be isolated and the score to be messed around with more to flow better. Also, going from Leia’s “Afraid?” to Han saying, “There aren’t enough scoundrels in your life” doesn’t sound right. You can tell something is missing. Looking back at it, it might be better to go like:

Han: Scoundrel? I like the sound of that.

Cuts to Leia, looking at Han, to her hands, and back to Han (cut away before she says “Stop that”)

Han: There aren’t enough scoundrels in your life.

On one hand, it allows us to cut another bit of Leia saying “Stop” and Han ignoring her request. But, cutting even more would make the scene depressingly short. If anything, the way it is drawn out originally is what creates the romantic tension of the scene. Maybe this could work if the music could potentially flow well.

Hmm. You know, I don’t know if this would work at all, but imagine if we could add steam into the room? It could be lighter in some moments and heavier during others, but it could come out heavy at one point during their kiss, allowing us to blend to the two takes.

Could even a simple jump cut potentially work? It does seem like that alternate take is actually a closer-up shot, or at least cropped closer, than the theatrical version. Leia pulling away could be the action we cut to.

I also like the matching the color grading of the alternate take, rather than matching that with the theatrical grade.

EDIT: Man, Star Wars has a problem with toxic romances.

For the Resistance/spy lines, I feel like we could get some other volunteers. ThisIsCreation is helping us with an alien dub for TROS, so maybe he’d be willing to record some lines for that too? Faraday might also be game. It’d be nice to throw in a female voice for variation, but it wouldn’t be necessary.

I’m glad you guys like the Kylo’s dark side vision idea! I wasn’t really coming at it from the direction of mocking Kylo, but I think the fact Kylo was being manipulated would become more apparent by the time we get to TROS. I think it is a great way to get insight into how and why Kylo joined the dark side. I like the idea of Kylo thinking he is doing the right thing in his own mind. Kylo has been led to believe that the Jedi perpetuate a cycle of war that has been going on for a thousand generations. He believes it is his destiny to end the cycle, but he must sacrifice everything to be strong enough to fulfill it.

I also think it makes it interesting that both Kylo and Luke have come to the conclusion that the Jedi Order must end, but they have two different ideas for what should replace it. Unfortunately that doesn’t really go anywhere, and we seem to end with no new insight into how things will be different, but what can you do?

But like y’all said, I guess it is just a matter of isolating those lines and working from there.