RogueLeader

rocknroll41 said:

I grew up with the PT, so I have a soft spot for it. That said, I think my entire generation lost IQ points because of these three movies…

I also think TFA wouldn’t have played it so safe had the PT not been so asinine, which therefore would’ve led to a less-confused TLJ and TRoS.

This is an interesting thought. I’m definitely in the camp that thinks JJ Abrams was the primary reason the Sequel Trilogy went retro. I think JJ was definitely a part of that first generation of fans who grew up with the OT and was disillusioned by the PT. If the PT had been received more positively by that generation, I definitely think the overcorrection Abrams tried to do with the ST wouldn’t have happened.

What’s more ironic is how I think the decision to go “retro” with the ST was made just before the PT/Clone Wars generation was old enough to start having a major voice online. It’s possible the release and reception of TFA contributed to a lot of people looking back at the PT more fondly, but it does seem the shift began in-between the ST’s announcement and after TFA’s release (2013-2016). So I wonder if the ST had began production just a few years later, if things would have been different. Honestly I think even a different director would’ve led to things being different, but it sort of feels like a chicken and egg situation to me.

Kyberangel, I’d be interested to hear a little more about what you were hoping/expecting from Episode IX. Or what changes you wish you could make to the Episode IX we got.

3PO being behind Jabba when Han and Leia are caught was another issue I ran into when trying to restructure the first act back when I made a ROTJ workprint.

I wonder if you could potentially reuse the shots of Boba Fett from the Bounty for a Wookiee scene, and have Boba be the one that catches Han and Leia. You would avoid the goofy fact that apparently the entire palace is quietly hiding behind curtains during the entire scene, you’d avoid having to paint 3PO out of the scene, you’d give Boba a little bit more to do, make him look smart (seeing through Leia’s disguise), and you would conclude the scene more quickly this way.

I agree with Nev that we should see Han getting unfrozen. This is something the audience would want to see, and we wouldn’t want to do this off camera.
Also, we shouldn’t cut too many of Han and Leia’s moments, especially if the Bounty for a Wookiee scene, as well as the Leia and Wicket scene, are also being cut.

You could have a scene that introduces Jabba’s palace, shows the general debauchery, maybe see Oola fall through the trap door, but perhaps we could somehow show Leia!Boushh amongst the denizens of the palace. Then, when it cuts to night, we can see her sneak around to unfreeze Han.

As always my mind has been jumping around, and lately I have been thinking about Return of the Jedi some more. I’ve always been sort of against pushing Luke’s scenes on Dagobah because I like Luke’s introduction in Jabba’s palace. It’s a cool way to see him for the first time.

But when it comes to fan edits, I don’t think radical ideas should immediately be written off. Going back through this thread and others, I kind of see the argument people have made for bringing these scenes up to Act 1. I actually pulled up ROTJ on D+ and started to watch it while I was lying in bed, and I could not make it through the Jabba stuff without dozing off. It did make me think that Act 1’s pacing could potentially benefit from intercutting between Vader/Emperor, Luke on Dagobah, and Leia’s failed rescue attempt.

If you look back through the years, there has been one big issue that has kept this idea from totally working in edits. You don’t really have an explanation for why Luke shows up late to the Rebel briefing. It might be a little easier to have the Falcon and his X-Wing to go in the same direction, but it’s harder to explain why Luke crashes the meeting.

Some people have suggested having Luke and ghost Obi-Wan’s conversation take place in his abandoned hut on Tatooine. While this would be really cool, there are a bit of VFX issues that keep this from really being feasible.

I’m gonna feel a little dumb if this has already been suggested by myself or someone else, but here’s my idea. What if we reused some shots from the end of ESB, where Luke is getting his robot hand, and put it at the beginning of the Rebel fleet sequence, to imply that Luke is getting his hand repaired after it was damaged during Han’s rescue?

You could zoom the shot in a little to hide Luke’s shirt, or you could recolor it to make it black. But I think zooming in the shot would help make it feel slightly different anyway. Not sure if both hand shots should be used. And maybe an insert of R2 could be added to show him watching the repairs. Maybe add a random Luke line over it. Then it can cut to the Rebel briefing.

Not sure exactly how it would work with the flow of the music, but it’s just a thought for how to explain his tardiness.

For some reason I have been thinking about some of the more radical ROTJ ideas, one of them being Luke returning to the original Death Star debris and retrieving a kyber crystal shard for his lightsaber (which I think is totally doable with some altered shots and filming a little bit of model work).

I’m also curious if there’s been any work to restore the Luke building his lightsaber deleted scene. Something I tried several years ago was having that scene take place on Dagobah rather than Tatooine, but I’m curious if a better quality version exists out there somewhere.

EDIT: Looking back, I think the crystal retrieval idea came from Bingowings, a long-time member who started the prequel radical redux thread and has had tons of ambitious and cool ideas. I can picture in my head how this scene could be done in a way that makes it feel like it could’ve been an original scene.

Yeah, I think you could leave the crawls and the title, but just remove the episode number.

Honestly it’s not a big deal, and you can just overlook it when you watch the movies, but if were to do edits of the movies (even if it just a few little things in ANH and ESB), I would just go ahead and remove them. That way, you could watch the film’s chronologically, release, Machete, or watch ROTS and TLJ as bookends to the OT, and there’s never a question of “what about episodes 1 and 2?”
That’s not even including all of the fanedit combos people could make.

You’ve had some good ideas lately Eddie!

After watching your test for the climax, I do kind of see the value of having a little moment where Anakin could potentially “pull it together” and turn his ship back on. Watching it again, I’m not sure how you could make such a moment where Qui-Gon could commune with him through the Force, or have Anakin think about Qui-Gon’s words.

I like the thought about the droidekas line, too. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone suggest doing that before.

Yeah, I’ve had this thought, and I know other people have too!

I think the ability to do this just depends on a few things.
I believe I’ve heard that the show will be six episodes, but I’m wondering how long each of those episodes will be, and if they will be long enough for two 2-hour movies.

Also, I think you could get away with these theoretical “Episodes II and III” being back-to-back chronologically, because TFA and TLJ did the same thing. It just is a matter of whether or not there will be a good place in the narrative where you could divide the story in half.

I sometimes think it would be better to just remove the episode labels from all of the movies.

I definitely agree with you though, prequelsrule, about how it would’ve been nice to have seen Luke with a thriving (or at least some students) Jedi order.

I also agree, that if they jump ahead beyond the sequel trilogy, there will just be a Jedi order and it won’t matter who started it per se. I feel Luke will be seen as the founder of the New Jedi Order, and Rey will be seen as his successor who continued it after him.

There are some things that the new films did that I do think feel appropriate or inevitable. To me, the biggest thing that just feels right is Han being killed by his own son. It seems like people were genuinely mad about this, but it just feels right in the sense of these movies being a dramatic family soap opera in space.

George has been described as a more “conservative” guy, but not in the political or ideological sense. The Rebels in Star Wars were the Viet Cong, and the Empire and the Emperor were the United States and Nixon. George has said this.

For the prequels, there is literally a quote out there where he says Bush is Vader and Cheney is the Emperor. Even Anakin’s line, “If you’re not with me, then you’re my enemy” is a paraphrase of Bush’s, “If you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists”.

I do think that the original Star Wars film was vague enough for the message to feel like it could apply to anyone. A liberal or conservative could watch Star Wars and see themselves as the Rebel underdogs. Although I’m not really sure what could be seen as explicitly “liberal progressive” that the internet or media hasn’t primed people to identify as such.

Funny that you mention it, I actually have your thread on that pulled up in another tab! Did you ever mess around with that idea in the cutting room? Haha.

Yeah, I’ve started realizing that another the Disney shows. Wasn’t totally happy with all of Mando Season 2’s cameos, but still liked it overall. But somehow BOBF ruined even that. Kind of dramatic and I’m sure I’ll still watch the new stuff, but it just feels more and more like I’m chasing the feeling the old movies gave me and never really catching that again.

It’s funny that you say that. Your TFA edit is an incredible achievement and you should be really proud of it. Honestly the work you did on it is one of the reasons I feel so compelled to keep coming back to think of ways to improve TROS. 😂

Well if anything your rewrite has sparked my interest in going back and actually completing a Rogue One edit! After this convo I think I’d commit to trying to find ways to make the continuity more compatible with ANH.

Yeah, I mean the Vader scene is definitely gratuitous, but even I have to admit it made for a great theater experience, and still pumps me up a little when I go back and watch it.

But it is funny how your mind was going to this reverse-engineering idea from a storytelling perspective. Thinking about Rogue One had me thinking about reverse-engineering the film to gel more aesthetically with the original Star Wars by going more retro with the grade and VFX, or trying to make the music and dialogue and other sound effects sound more analog. I like the idea of going “retro” with projects in general, sort of how the film Black Dynamite made a 70s retro film in 2009. I think if I were to ever make a Star Wars fan film, I would try to keep aesthetic and cinematography reminiscent to the original trilogy.

To be fair, the franchise shouldn’t be expected to be stuck in the past, per se, but I think the production value of the original trilogy really contributed to that real-world feel those movies had. I do agree with you that the saga could’ve worked well as a whole with that idea of mind, if the prequels had been smaller scale in comparison to the OT. Like others here, I’ve also definitely wasted a lot of brain space thinking about prequel rewrites, so the idea is definitely appealing. At the same time, I look at how I keep bouncing between ideas, whether it be the Rey Nobody stuff, a full TROS edit, a Rogue One edit, even full ST edits, etc… And after how weird the Book of Boba Fett was, it sometimes makes me wanting to just do a nice ROTJ edit and be satisfied with just a well-rounded Original Trilogy, not wasting any effort on stuff beyond that.

EDIT: Also, the upcoming Andor series makes me a little reluctant to make any major aesthetic changes to Rogue One, even if the idea is appealing.

I haven’t been on the script writing thread in weeks, so I was surprised to see that you recently posted something!

This was a nice write-up! You’re a great writer, man. Definitely thought that after your IX rewrite but I like the way you write prose. I remember you mentioning different how you had gripes with the apparent contradictions Rogue One’s climax had with ANH.

Some of the things you did, like sort of changing their mission, actually is reminiscent to some of the changes I was playing around with in a Rogue One edit I was doing. I think I changed Bodhi’s dialogue with Raddus to say that they need to take down the shield gate so they can escape with the plans. Cassian is checking on Bodhi’s status when he hears his ship explode over the comm, so at that point they decide to transmit the plans through the broadcast tower instead since that was their only means of escape.

On the subject of fan editing, another idea I had about resolving transmission/hard copy and the Tantive IV’s plausible deniability issue, would be to go from the fade to white of the explosion, and fade back into the interior shot of the Tantive IV after they’ve escaped the Profundity. This way you skip the Vader hallway scene, which means you avoid the issue of a physical data tape being brought onto the ship (which Vader sees) instead of being transmitted like ANH suggestsz. It also clears up the issue of Vader literally watching the Tantive IV fly away with his own eyes. In this version, the Tantive IV wasn’t in the Profundity, it was just the only ship that escaped the battle with the plans.

You could potentially still show the Tantive IV leave the battle (using the shot of the ship flying away before it cuts into the interior), but place it before Jyn and Cassian die. I think I would keep the shot of Vader’s back on the bridge, but cut the rest of that shot, maybe replacing it with the shot of the Tantive IV flying away. After all, there are several Corellian Corvette’s at the battle, so I think that would give the Tantive IV and Leia some deniability.

But to gel closer with your idea, you could replace the imperial officer and Vader dialogue on the bridge to imply something like what you said. Maybe the officer could say their flagship is beaming a transmission to another ship, and maybe new Vader dialogue could be constructed where he could say, “contact the Senate” or “find the location of Princess Leia”. All of the officer dialogue is off screen, so I think it would be a doable change.

I really like your new combat rewrite as well. Although seeing a big battle is cool, I like your intention of displaying information and characterization that will be useful to understand going into the Battle of Yavin. One could argue though that because they lost their fleet at Scarif, that is why their attack force on the Death Star only consisted of two starfighter groups. You could argue this was intentional because the Empire didn’t consider starfighters much of a threat to their battle station, but I think the argument could go either way.

Anyway, just some thoughts but I definitely think your write up addresses those issues. Kinda sucks when you come up with good ideas that can’t really be executed in an edit.

Huh, that’s a good way to reutilize that line!

I wonder if you could use a different word with a better ‘e’ sound, like ”evaluation”, “evil”, etc.
Then you could splice it together.

EDIT: Honestly going back and listening to it, it’s not that bad. I mean I think what you have is arguably good enough to say screw it if you wanted to. Definitely room for improvement but also not unusable imo.

That sounds pretty good! I think the first ‘e’ sound on “evacuation” sounds a little weird, but I think the rest works really well.

What about the Voice AI site people were sharing a few weeks ago. I think there is a 3PO voice on there.

EDIT: https://fakeyou.com/

Honestly it is kind of crazy how the Clone Wars dialogue can be utilized in such a relevant way to totally alter Jar Jar’s background and motivation.

Oh yeah, that’s a good place to start!

So basically,

1. Go through scene and find what unique sounds can be isolated and reused.
2. Go through the LEGO TFA audio to find new lightsaber and destruction foley.
3. Find alternate foley from outside sources outside of Star Wars for destruction or other sounds.
4. Potentially create new foley if some of the unique sounds need to be replicated.

Honestly, this would probably benefit any edit that makes changes to this scene, because I feel like the music is what makes the cuts more noticeable. So even though I think a music-less version would just be cool for its own sake, it could work as a good template for other people wanting to chop the scene up and re-add music.

I’d probably start by refoleying the scene as-is, and then editing from that. I’m on vacation next week so maybe I’ll have time to play around with that.

Oh yeah, it’s definitely an easier said than done thing. But unless you do that, you’re sort of forced to cut it down a lot (like how you have it). Because even if you cut Kylo’s dialogue in the main audio channel, you still hear the echoes of that dialogue in the other channels, as I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, it might be something that I can play with. Maybe in the meantime we could collect some foley that could be used for that scene? Like saber sounds for Rey and Kylo’s sabers, the stuff they break during their fight, and then maybe see if we can isolate any other unique sounds that are in that scene.

Thanks for sharing this Spence! I do think the new lines could use some work, but the lines really fit with the idea of what we’re trying to do, though. I also like how you skipped over Rey’s line, “Stop talking!” Honestly, Rey doesn’t really say anything of substance in this whole scene. The only information she provides is that she doesn’t like what Kylo is saying. But I think it works better when we just get that info from her non-verbal acting.

Hmm, this is definitely turning the gears. Honestly this makes me want to redo the sound from the ground up, and have no music at all.

You got it, Spence!

But yeah, I could see a benefit of finding a balance between making it purely just fighting, but maybe having just a bit of dialogue retained to help with tension. Or maybe you could keep more of the dialogue shots if Kylo isn’t obviously talking (like his helmet isn’t bobbing from his mouth/jaw movement). They could just be staring down each other, like one does in a good samurai duel, rather than Kylo talking at every opportunity. Maybe the audio could be rebuilt to make it more of a scoreless duel. Not really fond of the music hear anyway, it’s pretty erratic (or maybe I’ve just listened to it too many times…)

I also still think there is an opportunity to use this scene to solidify Rey’s motivation for wanting to harness her power. Giving Kylo lines like this:

“You need it/power, to keep them safe.”

“Rey, I know what happens to them.”

“Tell me where you are. I know the whole story.”

“The battle is lost. The Resistance, they will not succeed… you’ve seen it.”

And then replacing the parent visions with shots of the battle and her friends in danger. Maybe I’ll have some time next time to attempt this, but this is sort of my ideal change to this scene. It’s just hard to change Kylo’s dialogue because of how his lines echo into the other channels.

Regarding Anakin hearing Qui-Gon during the climax, I’m pretty sure there has been an edit that had Anakin hear Qui-Gon’s line, “Your focus determines your reality”, which fits with the moment pretty well I think. It also can be interpreted as Anakin just thinking of what Qui-Gon said, rather than Qui-Gon literally communing with him. But that could confuse people, and this ANH parallel might be a little too on the nose. Maybe not though. Maybe you could actually cut back to the moment to make it clear that Anakin is just recalling what Qui-Gon said rather than Qui-Gon speaking to him through the Force.

Regarding the Gungan Battle, I don’t think the entire battle scenes have to be put back to back. I think the Gungan battle should at least end before the gang splits up in the hangar. That way there is never four plots going at once. I think it would still be good to cut back to the gang making their way into the city to show what the Gungan battle is accomplishing.

Also, is the shot of Jar Jar landing on his arse (lol) even necessary? I mean I guess if you’re wanting to keep up runtime. I’ve seen other edits that just show Jar Jar and Captain Tarpals surrounded (but cutting away before Jar Jar surrenders).

Huh, after twenty years of TPM edits this is probably the first time anyone has ever managed to give Jar Jar new lines like that! Pretty cool.

It feels a little rushed in my opinion, but I REALLY like how you had Rey quickly turn around and slash at Kylo. I kind of don’t like how Rey’s dialogue in this scene mostly consists of her saying “No” in different ways. So, I like how that little change makes Rey look smarter and less patient with Kylo’s shit. It also adds to the whole theme of her tapping into her dark side.

You should definitely stick with what you have if you’re happy with it. I do think it would be nice to see the scene trimmed, but not totally speeding through the scene.