Grievous figure, i.e. the new charismatic vilain
We just going to ignore this?
Oh yeah sorry, I wrote it in French: I meant to write “villain”, with two “l”. “Vilain” is the French spelling.
I think he meant how you referred to Grievous as a compelling villain!
TiddySprinklesPimpBillion said:
Episode IX = Dark Empire XV.
That’s sorta the reason this makes me think George had some part in this idea. Originally when Tom Veitch was writing Dark Empire, the antagonist was going to be someone impersonating Vader. George came in, though, and suggested making it Palpatine reborn.
I do agree with Hal and some others in that I do feel bringing back Palpatine could take away from Vader’s sacrifice in ROTJ if not handled properly, but what is ironic is that the idea of Palpatine coming back from apparent death is a Lucas idea. Not saying that makes it a good or bad idea, but it is interesting. The idea, when taken at face-value, seems to undermine the narrative, but the idea has come from the creator himself, and isn’t an element of fan-fiction.
I’m starting to think if they are really bringing back the spirit of Palpatine, that the idea actually comes straight from George.
Interesting! I didn’t know you had played around with that.
So basically it does add a bit of mystery/surprise by removing those scenes, but you’re losing a lot of runtime. I think it is about 3-4 minutes altogether for the Sidious scenes.
You’re right. It is his Episode I: Return of the Sith edit. I’m sure it isn’t the only one either. So unless there were any issues with that edit that probably proves that it could work.
Another thing this reminds me of, I think if/when I eventually do edits of the saga films, something I would really like to try and do is keep the runtime at 2 hours. A lot of prequels edits sit at 90 minutes or even less, and I’m sure there better films for it, but I guess I don’t want them to feel too short.
I guess that just might be a rule I want to follow, so it inevitably will force me to cut only the most egregious things. So at least my case I may have to keep those scenes in order to remove other bits and pieces to maintain a 2-hour runtime. Unless I kept the bulk of those scenes and somehow swapped out Sidious with Maul.
This above is more or less how I intend to represent Dooku in my edit (though he won’t be a Sith). He’s aware of Palpatine, and his machinations, obviously certain things will have to be inferred due to the material available. I thought by adding Dooku to the Senate scene in TPM it draws a link between him and Palpatine, and the fact that he turns and walks away will show his disillusionment with the Senate.
He would be wielding a blue sabre in my edit.
Yeah, that is cool. This has been a common idea and luckily it doesn’t require major changes (cutting some lines, a scene, and changing Dooku’s saber color). This totally works for a radical edit, but it does contradict any non-film material, like the Clone Wars show. I guess I’m trying to figure out a way to maintain some of that added depth, but not blatantly contradict other material.
If there was a way one could add a line for Dooku about having joined the Dark Lord or something along those lines, but still keep him saying “we can destroy the Sith”, might help get that idea across. I think even deleting/altering Dooku’s lines about the Viceroy coming to him for help could help with this idea a little. If anyone has any ideas regarding line alterations or other usable Christopher Lee lines that could help, I’d appreciate the input!
On another note, I always felt Obi-Wan should be wielding Qui-Gon’s green blade at the start of Attack of the Clones.
This would be a cool idea too. Anakin and Obi’s Episode 2 sabers really could be any color since they end up losing both of them by the end of the movie.
Alternatively, I’ve always liked the idea that Luke uses Qui-Gon’s saber that Obi-Wan kept to build his green lightsaber. You could imply this by changing the ignition sound of Qui-Gon’s saber in TPM to the sound Luke’s makes in ROTJ.
If one were to also reinsert the scene of Luke building his saber in ROTJ, maybe someone could insert a brand new shot of Qui-Gon’s dismantled saber on the ground.
Another idea I wanted to discuss, and I believe this has been done in some edits before, is the idea of removing all of the Darth Sidious scenes in The Phantom Menace. I think there are some pros to this idea. One, it keeps the Sith more mysterious, because the only Sith we’ll ever see is Darth Maul. It allows the question Mace poses at the end, “But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?”
It also allows Dooku’s exposition to Obi-Wan in AOTC be a little more revealing since that information wouldn’t be as obvious in TPM. At that point we wouldn’t know if Dooku was lying or if he was the “master” during the events of TPM. Then at the end of AOTC, the persona of Darth Sidious appears on screen for the first time and we realize Dooku was telling the truth.
It also would parallel A New Hope, since the Emperor is mentioned but never seen. In this version of TPM, we may hear reference to a Sith Master and feel his influence, but we would never see the Sidious persona.
Obviously there would be some cons, but I’m wondering if people think the film would be worse off without those scenes.
Do you think we would lose context that would make the film more confusing? I just think it would be interesting if we knew just about as much as our protagonists know.
If necessary, you could replace Sidious in some of those scenes with Darth Maul, and either add new VO or use existing dialogue from the film or of Sam Witwer voicing Maul. This would be a lot more work, but you would be giving Maul more to do in the film, though.
What do you guys think?
I think the unfortunate thing about the deleted scenes is how their quality doesn’t really match the rest of the film. I think it would be cool to insert it to see if it would work logically, but I think it could only be seamless if you made the whole edit appear lower quality, like grindhouse, VHS or just standard definition.
And maybe you could add some com chatter during Falcon interiors of a rebel commando updating Lando on the ground battle.
I’ve always liked the idea of Dooku being just a rogue Jedi, because it makes Dooku a more complex character. I think a big issue with that though is that it would contradict Dooku’s portrayal in the Clone Wars, for those who enjoy the show.
I kinda wish there was a way to have Dooku aligned with Sidious, but imply that maybe Dooku has joined the Sith with the intention of trying to destroy it from within. Like, maybe that was his motivation for joining Sidious initially and he thought he would be strong enough to resist the temptations of the dark side, but as the war goes on, we see Dooku becoming more and more cruel.
Some of the new canon material, like the recent Master and Apprentice novel, implies that Dooku believed he might be the Chosen One, so this would kind go along with that idea. In this way, Dooku’s conversation with Obi-Wan about wanting to destroy the Sith would actually be true.
Maybe if you were to cut/alter the portion of their conversation about the Trade Federation being betrayed by “the dark lord” and coming to Dooku for help, and maybe replace it with something that one could piece together about him finding the dark lord and joining him.
Maybe when he almost kills Obi-Wan, you could have Dooku say “I’m sorry, Obi-Wan”.
And then in Revenge of the Sith, right before Anakin kills him, maybe Dooku could start trying to say something, like wait/stop/no/he is-, some variation of that.
I kind of like the idea of Dooku joining the dark side in the belief that it was a necessary evil, but being corrupted along the way. And it wouldn’t blatantly contradict the Clone Wars, because you could still keep his red lightsaber and him working with Sidious.
I think the dilemma they ran into was Michael Ardnt not feeling the script worked with Luke being reintroduced earlier in the film. Once he came into the picture, Ardnt said that he stole the spotlight, and I’m guessing it hurt the film because the new characters didn’t have enough time to really establish themselves. So, Luke became the goal they were after. But, I think even in George’s treatment, Han probably died at the end of TFA. So the way the story was set up, there were limited possibilities for the big three to share screentime altogether.
It did seem like George’s treatment for 7 may have actually portrayed the Solo son’s fall to the dark side, rather than it being the mystery/backstory as it is in the current ST (but it may have just been flashbacks). But it seems Luke was in a Colonel Kurtz-like exile even in George’s treatment.
I think we can discuss ad nauseum about what-ifs and alternate versions of the ST (people still do rewrites of the PT even now, even I have before) and if it would’ve worked or not. I think, at the very least, it would be cool if we got a flashback in IX of Han and Leia giving Ben to Luke, and it could be an opportunity to have them on screen together but still fit within the story. I’m not necessarily expecting that, but I think people would enjoy that.
I know I’m just setting myself up for disappointment, but I can picture something like that as a cold opening for the movie. Luke has a brief discussion with Han and Leia, and the last shot of the scene would be a close up on young Ben as Luke tells him he’s destined for great things, and then it would hard cut to an older, scarred Kylo Ren as Supreme Leader of the galaxy, sitting on a cold, black throne.
I personally disagree, and I see I won’t change your opinion on that either, but that’s okay!
Though I think having these discussions are nice, because it helps me articulate why I like the movies.
So nothing in TFA indicates that she accepted the call to action?
If that’s all it boils down to, why do we care about protagonists like Dorothy, Alice, or Charlie Bucket?
I’m not saying it is a God, you can still interpret the Force as just a non-sentient system of nature that seeks to maintain balance. Force-users are conduits of the Force, and Force-users who allow the Force to act through them will naturally have the Force on their side.
I feel like you can only see the Force in two ways: either it is a conscious, dynamic entity that guides people or a unconscious, static power source that Force-users draw their abilities from. But it isn’t that black and white. The Force isn’t that simple. It can be an energy field, but also have a will of its own, but it doesn’t necessarily make it conscious or unconscious. Am I making any sense?
I think it is a bit of a mistake to think we understand the rules of the Force or what it exactly is. I think being set in one’s interpretation of the Force is exactly how the Jedi of the prequels lost their way.
My interpretation of the Force is a lot like how the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching describes the Tao.
The Way that can be walked is not the eternal Way.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of all things.Therefore:
Free from desire you see the mystery.
Full of desire you see the manifestations.
These two have the same origin but differ in name.
That is the secret,
The secret of secrets,
The gate to all mysteries.
EDIT:
Just to add on to what I’m trying to say, check out this interview George Lucas did back in 1999. They really get into why George wanted to create the Force in Star Wars and what he wanted the audience, especially young people, to get from it.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-2,00.html
I just don’t agree that the she has to have some kind of lineage. I mean hell, Palpatine is a great example. Palpatine came from average parents, at least in Legends, not sure in canon, but he became the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Yeah, maybe bloodline can predispose people to have an already innate connection with the Force, but it doesn’t mean incredible talent can come from nowhere. And people bring up the fact that most great Jedi in Star Wars history did not have Jedi parents, but the whole point of Rey being a nobody is to show how anyone can be a hero even among legends. So to me it isn’t the same as just having a new hero in a new story with all new characters.
The Sequel Trilogy is basically if you combined the Legend of King Arthur with the story of Joan of Arc.
Joan (Rey) is chosen by God (the Force), given a special sword, and goes on a journey to save the land. Joan was just a farm girl, but she goes on to win battles even though she has no military training. Do we call Joan a Mary Sue? If God did not have a presence in the story, sure, but Joan has been chosen by God because of her piety and faith. It is her faith that gives her her power. Rey is a great comparison, in my opinion.
And instead of Joan trying to save France, it is like Joan trying to bring back King Arthur to save the land from his evil nephew, Mordred (interestingly, Joan of Arc’s greatest gift to the French army was really hope, a theme I believe is central to the purpose of Luke and the Jedi in the ST).
I also don’t believe the rules have the Force have changed either. Now, with the OT alone the Force is described pretty simply, but within the context of the PT I believe it fits.
Not sure in canon, but in Legends Plagueis and Palpatine did NOT create Anakin. Anakin/the Chosen One was created by the Force reacting to the growing power and machinations of the Sith. In the films themselves, Mace and Yoda discuss how their abilities in the Force are diminishing. I think the Sith choose to see the Force as just a system or a tool, but I think the Jedi see the Force as alive. To me, the Force, even in the OT, is meant to be a spiritual thing where faith and belief were fundamental to its identity. The Force is much more like God, or the Tao, rather than a system of magic from an RPG. That’s what George always meant for it to be.
Regarding Snoke
For awhile I thought Snoke was some kind of servant of Palpatine, but now I believe Snoke was merely a new Force-user who filled in the power vacuum, just a dark side rival similar to Mother Talzin. And if Sidious has been influencing Ben through Vader’s helmet or something, then it is possible Sidious just helped to position Ben to become Snoke’s apprentice in order to kill his both of his rivals (Snoke and Luke). A lot of the Wizard of Oz imagery, with the larger-than-life hologram and the red curtains of Snoke’s throne room (Man Behind the Curtain) seems to suggest this idea of Snoke being a red herring of sorts.
How much consideration the writers put into it is certainly up for debate (I definitely feel JJ gave more attention to some elements over others). If you read through the “Art of” books, especially The Force Awakens, you can definitely see Rick Carter, JJ, and the whole team delving back into fundamental questions about the nature of the Star Wars galaxy. How strong is the Force? Who is Luke Skywalker? What is the Force’s relevance? Does it mean anything now? They were really focused on the nature of the Force early on, it seems.
This guy’s is still 3 hours. I dunno, you nitpick something long enough anything’s gonna fall apart. Also, this guy’s brand seems to be all about trashing Disney, and Star Wars in particular. Just doesn’t seem super unbiased. But to be fair I haven’t listened to it yet so I’ll give it a listen sometime. Regardless, thanks for sharing Val!
I think it works pretty well! I kind of liked how you made the shot of Kylo on the ground start glowing red like in the last version you did. The cut back and forth between Kylo, Rey, then back to Kylo feels a little too quick to me. But I think the music works well there, it flows with the scene.
That’s why I don’t have an issue with this scene apart from the inconsistency when compared to the OT - it feels like an almost necessary change for modern audiences. The immediate Force abilities on the other hand…
Yes, and I think this goes back to my perspective that the Force plays a more active role in this trilogy. If you dropped Rey into the prequels or the original trilogy, I don’t think Rey’s abilities would be as significant as they are in the Sequel Trilogy.
I know some people don’t like the idea of a dynamic Force, some people see the Force as more of a “what” than a “who”, but I don’t think you have to think of the Force as a conscious entity. You could interpret the Force as like the immune system of the galaxy, or how an ecosystem adapts to drastic changes in the environment. Just my two cents though.
It seems Rey has flown before (like the quad-jumper that blew up), but she hasn’t flown the Falcon. Despite that, she seems to be really familiar with the controls and ins-and-outs of the Falcon. From her dialogue it seems like she helped Unkar Plutt make repairs to the Falcon, and was also familiar with the modifications Plutt made that she didn’t agree with.
I do think that the issue is just coming back to the fact that the audience might not put two-and-two together and remember that Rey saw R2 in the dream, and because of R2’s relation to Luke, it made her realize he might have the rest of the map. Maybe if 3PO could say to Leia, “Rey’s found some much needed good news.”
Veering off in another direction a little. We discussed before the idea of putting the Hosnian destruction right after Rey defeats Kylo, and how I was concerned if the high of the duel’s climax could clash with a somber moment immediately after, and Nev, you speculated on the idea of possibly changing the music to be a little darker and less heroic, if that makes sense.
I’ve thought about this some more, and I wonder if you could possibly replace the latter half of that track, starting with the Force theme as they are fighting for each other’s blades then Rey slices his face, with the alternate track for Han’s death scene? It is basically a darker version of the Force theme, and I think the way that track ends would flow really well into the ‘Starkiller’ track. Not sure if the timing would be right but might be worth experimenting with.
Yeah, that is a simple change!
How would you reorganize the Snoke scenes again? I feel like I remember you saying at one point you would try to not have Kylo Ren go back to Starkiller until after he gets Rey. So would you drop that idea, or make it to where it is only Hux in that scene?
I’ve been thinking about how you could pull off this idea some more since yesterday too.
Maybe you’ve had a better idea for what this defense system could be, but I’ve been thinking a moon with a large, planetary shield generator would be a good idea. It would basically be the same tech used on Endor to protect the DSII, but a larger scale.
In the first shot of the Falcon jumping out of hyperspace, you could add the moon to the shot of Takodana. Maybe you could generate a new shot of the Falcon flying by it so the audience can get a new look at it, and a new Falcon cockpit interior as they’re approaching the planet. And maybe during the Falcon interior shots, you could add some off-screen comm dialogue like, “You are clear for landing, lowering planetary shield in Sector 49.” Or something like that. Maybe we could see a massive satellite dish on the planet surface. Not sure.
Obviously it needs to be something that isn’t too complicated visually. At with that idea, we’ve seen something like it before on a smaller scale. And again, I’m not sure where you could get the design from besides making it from scratch.
It could just be a giant satellite in space, or a giant gun, sphere, space station floating in orbit, but I think it has to be something that is obviously too big for one Star Destroyer to handle itself, which is why I think making it a moon is a good idea. And it raises the stakes more than if it just destroyed a space station.
You mean have the opening shot of IX parallel the opening shot of I? That is true! But I suppose that also depends on what the opening shot of IX will be as well.
Until then, I think paralleling ROTJ with TPM would be a good option, since they already share quite a few similarities, like the transport requesting permission to land, an interior cockpit shot, a ship landing in a hangar, etc.
I do think you raise a good point regarding symmetry between all nine films. While there are many parallels between the PT and the OT, the ST reflects the OT (and occasionally the PT) in many ways, I think it raises a question of if the trilogies parallel symmetrically, if that makes sense. Like a ABCDDCBA, pattern, like the Ring Theory posits (if that is a big deal for some). And if it doesn’t, is it possible to edit the films to “rhyme” more within the narrative of the Saga.
Making a new opening shot for ROTJ has been discussed before, but I just had a random idea for that.
The opening of TPM parallels the opening shot of ROTJ in a lot of ways, so we could have the ROTJ opening parallel TPM’s and pan down to distant Star Destroyers with the Imperial shuttle already approaching camera, the camera could pan LEFT following the shuttle and then the Second Death Star could come into view as the shuttle flies toward it, away from camera. Like in TPM, the Republic cruiser flies toward camera, the camera pans RIGHT, then Naboo and the Trade Federation ships come into view.
Would be an interesting option without being a drastic change.
Just need to figure out a way to desaturate the planet while keeping the color of the explosions.
Maybe someone could tweak those explosion shots enough to find a good in-between to maintain the explosions color but still be desaturated enough to not make a huge difference from the rest of the shots?
If not, you might have to rotoscope around the explosions to maintain their color. I think it would be worth trying, but I don’t think you’d have to go with the blue star angle, Jakku could just have a different atmosphere or something, like Mars.
I think this, and the potentially more challenging idea of adding MORE wreckage to Jakku are the best methods of differentiating Jakku that are somewhat feasible.
This would effectively establish Starkiller Base and its range and accuracy using a Rogue One style ‘single reactor’ attack. It would be dramatic enough to substantially raise the stakes, but still modest enough when used on this remote pirate base to justify the Republic’s continued inaction.
This is a cool new idea! Coming full circle. It could fit into the idea of Maz’s Castle being like a safe zone, neutral ground, except instead of just the castle it is the planet. Maybe you could use the subtitled aliens with Finn to provide some additional context for the defense platform as well!
But yeah, it would definitely require some new vfx for sure. I’m not sure how you would do that. And the platform would have to appear significant enough that it would require something as drastic as using a giant laser and exposing Starkiller rather than just attacking it with a Star Destroyer. Like, one Star Destroyer wouldn’t be strong enough to take it out. But they would have to use it in order to get the map.
I do think the important thing would be to make this idea as simple as possible, because if it is too complicated it might be confusing for the audience. So however it works, I would go with whatever is the easiest to understand visually.
EDIT: Establishing Takodana even more as a Switzerland-like neutral planet with some sort of defense would also help explain why Han felt comfortable with waltzing into the castle, since he would think they were safe there.