Well it being mono makes a whole lot more sense especially for a low budget flix and one without a 70mm release. I should learn not to trust imdb.
zeropc said:
Movie: An American Werewolf in London
Format: Laserdisc LD 15101-WS
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Andrea
Notes: Contains the original Theatrical Mono soundtrack, which isn't available on DVD and Blu-ray.Movie: Full Metal Jacket
Format: Laserdisc NJL-11760
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Buster D
Notes: Contains the original Theatrical Mono soundtrack, which isn't available on Blu-ray.Movie: Blade Runner (International Cut)
Format: Laserdisc NJL-20089
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped by: Buster D
Notes: Ripped from Japanese LD. Not Criterion Collection LDMovie: Carrie
Format: Laserdisc CC1322L
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Buster D
Notes: DVD & Blu-ray contain the original Mono mix, but only in lossy format. Ripped from Criterion Collection LD
Thanks zeropc, can't wait to hear them all synced up. I'm sure a lot of people will be especially excited for Kubrick in the original mono.
Also Buster D was nice enough to sync up The Rocketeer in both 44.1 and 48. I'm excited to hear this one and another one off the list:
Movie: The Rocketeer
Format: Pioneer (Japan) Laserdisc PILF-1466
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 kHz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack 1: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 kHz, 16-bit
Output Soundtrack 2: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 48 kHz, 16-bit
Synced To: 2011 Blu-ray Release Region A
Ripped/Synced by: Buster D
Buster D said:
Is the DTS-MA 2.0 for American Graffiti as close to the original theatrical audio (4-track stereo) as we can get? I have one of the Pioneer Japan LDs but it's Dolby Surround, so I assume it's mostly the same as the DTS-MA.
Who knows. Much like all Lucas films, American Graffiti has gone through a few changes. I don't know of any modification to the soundtrack but would not be surprised to hear it did happen. If there are changes, they are on the Blu-ray.
Interesting enough, IMDB says it was a 4-track but it predates Dolby Stereo and was too much of a low budget to get a 70mm release. That means only European audiences heard the 4 track on 35mm mag prints. In the US it would of been stereo optical (no matrix).
Lacerated said:
PDB said:
I use Adobe Audition for all my projects since I have the Adobe suite.There are pre- & post-filtering in Adobe Audition, which I have used. It's interesting seeing how much the quality has improved in latest released via src.infinitewave.ca .
The Adobe Audition suite is great all around. I'm trying to learn speedgrade right now. See if I can fix the colors on some movies.
captainsolo said:
I haven't tried the BD yet, but it should be the same as the mix found on the 2005 Masterpiece Collection DVD, which was noisy with inherent hum and occasional crackle. From what some have said I think it should be the same source as the old LD/VHS. The later 90's VHS and Beta releases may have a better condition version.
It probably is the same. I'm in the process of capturing it. I will post up a sample when done, captainsolo.
*edit: Here is a test sample of the first couple of minutes for the analog LD:
zeropc said:
just a headsup...
the original mono mix for an american werewolf in london has be preserved. taken from this laserdisc. bitperfect of course. though, it's not synced yet.
special thanks goes out to andrea for capture and sharing.
Very cool!
NeonBible said:
PDB said:
I still have the Hitchcock laserdiscs that I need to capture and they are all analog. Sadly capturing analog is where better equipment always shines.
Are you planning to work on Vertigo?
I wonder how the LD compares to the current offering on the Region A BD (lossy, but DTS).
Yep, got that laserdisc. I was wondering the same thing.
borisanddoris said:
Well tsmuxer won't even take a 44.1khz file into it.
I typically mix everything into either Blu-ray or M2TS streams for the Oppo. It works with MKV, but won't do lossless tracks with MKVs, unless it's PCM.
Hmmmm that doesn't surprise, thanks borisanddoris
Buster D said:
My Oppo BDP-80 will play BD-Rs containing MKVs with 44.1kHz LPCM 2.0, but it has a lot of bugs, like ignoring the chapter stops, and deciding to jump back to the very beginning if I try to rewind, and then stopping playback if I try to fast forward to the place where I left off (so I'm screwed unless I want to watch the whole thing again). My Popcorn Hour does a pretty good job with MKVs, but its kind of a pain to use in my setup so I prefer to mux to BDMV and playback in my PS3 or Oppo.
and kind of surprised the Oppo gets that far, thanks BusterD
You_Too said:
PDB said:
Buster D said:
James Cameron recently did a Reddit AMA, but it doesn't look like anyone bothered to ask him about Terminator and Abyss getting a blanket teal tint. I'd kind of like to hear his justification for it, although I suspect the answer might not be very satisfying (if he even would be willing to answer).
I'm sure he would give the standard, unsatisfying its my film/its the way its suppose to look anyway.
Unfortunately I'm sure he'd say that too.
Anyway, just to clear things up: It's not a plain blanket tint. When they do these restorations they go back to scanning and cleaning up the original negative, and by doing that they lose the color timing done to the theatrical/home video prints. They get higher resolution and all the original detail, but as far as I know they have to redo the color timing from scratch. (Basically it would be like taking the Japanese Abyss broadcast and making it look like the DVD shot by shot) This takes more than putting a blanket tint on it, believe me. It's probably a lot about hue/saturation/luminance control.
That's where the idea of creating a new color timing comes in. James Cameron likes doing it so he keeps doing it to all his re-releases now. Terminator 1 got more teal added to it than Aliens and Titanic though, as well as a slight green tint on top of it all. (Aliens and Titanic also has more green in the whites than red and blue, but also slightly more red than blue, just like T1 except it's not as heavy)
Now the interesting thing is that The Abyss is, judging by the latest screenshots, exactly like Aliens and Titanic, which is not as heavily overdone as T1, but still the exact same thing with the whites, most green, less red, even less blue.
The original look of all these films is without a doubt close to what we see in theatrical trailers or the old home video releases, that is Cameron focusing on a clean blue for the cold-looking scenes, teal only being slightly visible here and there as part of the natural color balance, not something over-forced.
And the good news is that Aliens, Titanic and The Abyss will be easy to correct, though the digital changes won't be fixable. (Like added stars in the sky in Titanic or removed camera crew being visible etc.) And of course, the changes in brightness in some scenes will still be there but it would look closer to the original look.
And I don't usually do this but I have to say it: Stamper, quit defending Cameron or present technical proof for your claims. There's so much technical proof of what has been done here that one could easily make a wall of text from it.
Goods points, You_Too. We had that discussion about the changes in colors for the Road Warrior Blu-ray. They scanned the negative which was cool/blue but the original release prints where warm/yellow exactly the same as the old DVD and LD. The release prints where chemically processed to be more yellow to give that desert feel. The cinematographer planned it that way and took great lengths to achieve that look. When WB went back to the negative, they simply scanned it and release it without trying to reproduce the original release print's look.
I wonder if you are right and this is similar. If when they scanned The Abyss' negative, they lost (or it didn't contain) the original release print's color timing. Cameron re-colored it but instead of his 90's era steel/royal blue look (that Abyss, T2 and True Lies have), he moved to that more modern aqua/teal look that he is now fond of. At the end of the day Cameron is changing all his films to fit his current tastes and not what they looked like at the time of their releases.
I've actually seen a archival 35mm print of The Abyss at the AFI in Silver Spring, Maryland (USA) circa early 2000s. I do clearly remember it had the Cameron steel, blue look (not the teal/aqua). I can tell you that both HD masters don't look like that print (the JPN HD is way, way wrong). The closest to that look is the DVD. Makes me wonder what the LD looked like.
Speaking of laserdiscs and Cameron. Aliens is interesting. I have been capturing my old LDs lately. Trying to make backups in case my player finally bites it. When I watched my capture of Aliens (letterbox/theatrical), I expected it to look like the DVD. Nope. The DVD has a little more muted look in its colors. The LD is warmer and has more saturated colors. I actually kind of like the LD's colors better then the DVD's. Suffice to say the BD, DVD and that LD all look different.
I still consider 48 the final product, I'm just going to modify my edit chain to allow for both a 44.1 and 48 soundtracks. The only video/film formats to support 44.1 are laserdiscs and DTS Cinema Discs and they are long dead. So unless you are listen to one of those or using a PC, you are going to need 48. Everything now is 48; DVDs, Blu-rays, HDTV, streaming, etc. 48 is the minimum default today.
Most people I talk too, burn the soundtracks onto Blu-rays. That necessitates 48, so that's what my target has always been. Chewtobacco brings up good points, so moving forward it will be dual 44.1 and 48 release. 44.1 for you HTPC guys and 48 for the rest.
borisanddoris said:
If we go with 44.1khz for the DTS cinema projects, it'd have to be PCM as I don't believe DTS-HD MA and True HD like 44.1khz.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd be ok with a 44.1 and 48 dual inventory release. That or good instructions on how to re sample with good quality.
I'm going to experiment and see if my Oppo 93 can play files muxed with 44.1.
As for the JP test in a real cinema, let's just say I still know a few kind people. :)
Dolby Digital and DTS (home theater version) both support 32, 44.1 and 48 (DTS later expanded to 96 but that never went anywhere). I have never seen Dolby Digital encoded in 32 or 44.1 but of course DTS exists in 44.1 on laserdiscs. DTS (theater version) as we know is of course always 44.1. DTS-HD MA and Dolby TRUEHD/MLP supports 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, etc. so they can do 44.1. None of that matters since the Blu-ray format won't allow for any soundtracks in 44.1, not in DTS, Dolby or PCM.
I'm curious about how your Oppo does with 44.1. The Oppo will play CDs so its DACs will support 44.1 and if you bitstream you receiver will support 44.1. I wonder if it will even work and if it does, will convert to 48, will lose sync, etc. Please let me know if you get anywhere with that, borisanddoris.
That's cool about the JP test.
rockin said:
I've had a similar problem when creating a blu-ray image with 44.1Khz track to play on blu-ray players. The only way I can watch it without loss of quality is via PC/HTPC.
That's what I assume would happen. Rockin, out of curiosity what player did you test that on? Did the Blu-ray image play fine on your PC despite being non-spec for BD?
,,,^..^,,,_ said:
But I want also to make a little provocation: why don't we use sometimes the analog laserdisc tracks? Quality is very good, comparable with the PCM tracks, and they could be captured at 48kHz 24bit, without further conversions, so everybody will be happy! (^^,)
That analog question is a good one. I've capture from LDs at 44.1/16 since that was always my default for LDs but 48/24 would probably be better. Being analog it doesn't matter so the higher the sampling, the better (to a point). That's something to think about Andrea. We should standardize.
I still have the Hitchcock laserdiscs that I need to capture and they are all analog. Sadly capturing analog is where better equipment always shines.
captainsolo said:
Great news on the Uni Monster front PDB, I look forward to hearing those comparisons. I only have the Dracula and Mummy VHS releases from the "Faces" VHS series.
As for Batman Returns, the Dolby Stereo SR definitely needs capturing, as 99.99% of theaters played this track, the WB archive 35mm print I saw in December played this SR track and had no 5.1, and the 5.1 is based from this 4-track mix. They seem to have gotten the go ahead to mix in the new 5.1 format and played with their exiting mix. Comparing the LD 4ch matrix to the early DVD 5.1 shows everything as the same, except for overall mixing qualities. The 5.1 is obviously more discrete, but the Stereo SR feels more natural and has a better low end I think. Plus being a studio transfer you lose the inherent deficiencies of 35mm optical. (The print had a good deal of sibilance and upper frequency distortion, especially in the end title section.)
Yeah crissrudd4554 was nice enough to give me rips of the VHS tapes a long time ago and life stopped me from moving forward with them. Now that I have "some" time, I first wanted to get the '99 soundtracks (sold my '99 discs a while back), so you can have the BDs vs '99 DVD vs VHS.
That's a good read on Returns. That makes me more excited to get to work on that. I guess you can consider Returns close to the pinnacle of Dolby Stereo (SR) technology. I compared Jurassic Park's LD PCM soundtrack to the LD's DTS and it seems to pretty much be a mix down. I would expect that since I believe JP was mixed from the beginning as discrete DTS and the stereo created after (the old 70mm to Dolby Stereo model).
I remember you saying Batman's 5.1 (DVD snapper) was a bit of an anomaly too. I need to get copies of both Batman and Return's 5.1 soundtracks to sync.
Chewtobacca said:
PDB said:
So I guess we get back to the heart of the matter, is it worth all the trouble to convert to 48? Does changing it to 48 affect the quality?It inevitably affects quality. The high-quality resamplers minimise the damage.
Converting to 48 is unavoidable if one must have a disc playable in a stand-alone player, which is an understandable requirement; however, if it's done after editing, two tracks can be released: one at 44.1 and one at 48. This way, nobody loses: those who wish to remux to MKV have the option of keeping the original sampling rate; those who want a resampled version can have it; the only change in the editor's workflow is that he resamples the guide track, rather than the track that he wishes to sync.
Again no worries Chewtobacco. No bad feelings. I get where you are coming from and you have a legitimate point. I was just shooting to make the widest range of people happy. Next, project I do, I'm going to try to edit at 44.1 and use hairy_hen's recommendation to convert after and see how it goes.
Again, I'm sincerely sorry if it looks like I'm pushing to have things my way, but it doesn't make sense to me to insist (justifiably) on bit-perfect rips and then to resample the result,especiallyin a less-than-ideal way. It's a bit like insisting on buying paper of the highest quality and then giving it to a two-year-old to doodle on it (though obviously that analogy's an extreme one).
What you don't want to give your kids the best paper possible? If that's going on the frig, best to use the finest canvas available. :)
dvdmike said:
I thought we had found the cinema DTS for this flick.
Isn't it suppose to be cinema version of DTS-ES also (matrix I think not discrete 6.1)?
Buster D said:
James Cameron recently did a Reddit AMA, but it doesn't look like anyone bothered to ask him about Terminator and Abyss getting a blanket teal tint. I'd kind of like to hear his justification for it, although I suspect the answer might not be very satisfying (if he even would be willing to answer).
I'm sure he would give the standard, unsatisfying its my film/its the way its suppose to look anyway.
Well that's a hell of a read, hairy_hen. I appreciate a good technical read and clearly, you have much more knowledge on audio theory and mixing then I do. I just downloaded the Weiss Saracon Resampler to play around with. For my next project I might try to use it for resampling before editing.
I use Adobe Audition for all my projects since I have the Adobe suite. What I do know is that when I set the project's sampling to 48,it converts the captured laserdisc's PCM from 44.1 to 48 while also converting depth from 16-bit to 32-bit. I had previously read up as to the reasoning behind changing the bit depth for editing and I saw what you wrote about it in your second post. Fascinating stuff. Now thanks to your post I know bit more on sampling part too. I am unsure as to what processes Audition uses to preform said sample rate conversion. In audition even if I keep the project to 44.1 to match the LD's audio, it would still convert the bit depth to 32 for editing. So even at its original 44.1, the audio is modified on some level (in Audition).
I have to say, I have never noticed a difference between the original 44.1 and the edited 48 that I've done. I've done a couple of A/Bs myself and failed to notice a difference both on headphones and speakers. The new, edited 48 always seems transparent to the original 44.1.
So I guess we get back to the heart of the matter, is it worth all the trouble to convert to 48? Does changing it to 48 affect the quality? Kind of the argument that Chewtobacca was making the last page. And is the audio inherently different when transformed to 48, similar to the discussion _,,,^..^,,,_ and I had about the DTS Cinema CD-ROMs. Keeping 44.1 would be "truer" to the original rip. Like I said, I can use a HTPC and play the Blu-ray with 44.1 but if anyone else wants to play it in a blu-ray player, they are out of luck. I'm going to try your recommendations, hairy-hen. See what Weis Saracon offers. Thanks for the insightful post.
borisanddoris said:
What a mix everyone. Thanks to all those involved for making this available. How fitting for its 25th Bativersary!
Jonno said:
PDB said:
That's my fault. I was rushing to upload a new copy and exported the entire session instead of just the LD track. That's what happens when you rush. Thanks to Jonno for pointing that out. I already fixed it, tested it and uploading it now. I will send you a new link boris.
I've just muxed the new version and checked out a few scenes - it sounds terrific so far. Thanks for putting in the hard work!
Thanks guys!
borisanddoris said:
This makes me wonder, what did we use to convert that original Jurassic Park project from 44.1 to 48. It sounds perfect to my ears and on the handful of systems I've tested it on, including an actual cinema through a CP-650.
That sounds pretty cool. How did you have the opportunity to use a CP-650? How did it sound?
NeonBible said:
Movie: Blade Runner - International Theatrical / Criterion Cut
Format: Laserdisc NJL-20008 (same master as Criterion LD)
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: Blu-Ray - International theatrical version
Ripped/Synced by: Buster D/NeonBible
Notes: Contains the original Dolby Stereo soundtrack. Release format - FLAC.
That's great Neonbible! I love Blade Runner. Hopefully, someone can follow your work and get both the theatrical and '92 director's cut done. Thanks to you and Buster D for that track.
NeonBible said:
On the subject of Batman, how well is the audio preserved on DVD/BD for Batman Returns? Given that it was first to use Dolby Digital.
I was thinking of doing Batman Returns LD's PCM Dolby Surround (Batman already done and all) and Jurassic Park LD's PCM Dolby Surround. Kind of a last gasp of Dolby Stereo set since both were the first movies to have digital theatrical soundtracks (BR was Dolby Digital/AC-3/SR-Dand JP was DTS) but both were still heard by the majority of people in Dolby Stereo.
That reminds me of when I first saw Jurassic Park. It was in DTS and boy even as a kid I could tell the difference. When that disc and the digital experience sign exploded, people in the theater got up and cheered.
I also am working on the VHS soundtracks of Frankenstein and Dracula now that I have a copy of the 1999 DVDs to do also. That way you will be able to compare the changes from VHS to the first (1999) DVDS to the BD.
antovolk said:
Yeah, IIRC last time it was a Verizon FiOS broadcast instead of proper cable...hope it's not web-based this time.
I was the one who found the EPIX HD version and did the initial crappy capture. Sadly the fault is not FIOS. FIOS is regular FDM for TV not IP (though they do use IP for VOD services). Since FIOS has a lot of bandwidth they don't remux the signal they get from EPIX, so in many ways it is much better then other cable providers, no additional remuxing, compression or SDV. The signal from EPIX was super compressed on the regular broadcast as much as the VOD. Lots of macro-blocking in the beginning "red jungle" chase. I am just worried that its going to be crap on all EPIX broadcasts and maybe another source all together would be better.
All other problems with the capture were my fault since my capture equipment is terrible. If no one else gets traction on this, I'm going to try again and this time try to record a copy off my cable card. That would capture the original stream from FIOS. But like I said it will probably still be a compressed mess.
jbaker111 said:
Just curious, what is the difference between "bit perfect" and "not bit perfect"?
Read here:
borisanddoris said:
Just downloaded Batman LPCM. Is it me or is something really off with the audio? It's like some odd compression artifacts. Noticed it in VLC, Audacity, as well as into my Pioneer processor via the Oppo 93.
Really noticeable on the cymbal crash after Tim Burton's director credit.
That's my fault. I was rushing to upload a new copy and exported the entire session instead of just the LD track. That's what happens when you rush. Thanks to Jonno for pointing that out. I already fixed it, tested it and uploading it now. I will send you a new link boris.
You_Too said:
I bet this is exactly how the official blu-ray will look. Teal...
Even when I was a kid and didn't know anything about color timing, I saw that there was something about James Cameron using a lot of blue in his movies like Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss, it always set a special mood to the films, and now he just changes what many of us grew up watching and loving, just to make it look "modern".
By the look of this, it'll be easy to correct though. Might even work with the script me and DJ are using for T1.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, that the theatrical trailers for The Abyss suggests that the blue look we got used to on video and DVD is the correct one, not the warm-looking japanese broadcast.
I think it fair to say the DVD is the way it looked in 89. I saw a print in the mid-2000s and remember it having the Cameron-blue filter look. The new colors are definitely Cameron's new obsession with teal/aqua.
zeropc said:
Stamper said:
The rip of the new HDTV is available on a well known site, in case anyone is interested. Compressed to 2.1gb but still a progress over all previous versions.
there is also a 14gb version
Oh that's great saves me the trouble of making a copy. I was trying to borrow hardware from a friend.
Chewtobacca said:
I hate to be "that guy", but I do wish that people would not resample the audio.
- If the issue is that the guide track is 48 kHz, one can resample that track to 44.1 kHz and discard it after editing.
- If the issue is BD compatibility, people can either resample it themselves or two tracks (one that has been resampled and one that hasn't) can be released.
Moreover, resampling before release stops people from using better methods if/when they become available.
No worries about being "that guy", we all have a valid opinion. I know what you are saying Chew and I can only speak for myself and not others here. Since I sync all my tracks to their counterpart BDs, it only makes sense to convert said track to 48 for Blu-ray compatibility. I rip most of my BDs to MKVs on a hard drive so 44.1 vs 48 doesn't make a difference to me since a MKV can support both. On the other hand I realize a lot of people can't do that and wish to burn new BDs with the LD (or whatever source's) soundtrack. And most don't have the software to do a good 44.1 to 48 conversion without distortion/clipping. So at the end of the day I convert all my tracks to 48 for the greatest level of compatibility and keep the original 44.1 rips for future formats. I always keep the original rip.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Yes, mine is 50/50 mix; I'd like to test some screenshots more, but they should be subtitle-free to be feeded to my colourmatch script... of course, a short clip would be better.
IIRC though, the japanese HDTV color grading is not the same of the DVD and/or laserdisc, am I right?
Looks like the non-anamorphic DVD is closer to the new HD master but still not exactly the same:
R1 DVD/JPN HD/Cinemax HD (Far from the exact frame)
I assume the DVD's look was created with blue filters and gels and the new HD was created via digital color correction. What does the LD look like? I have to say of the three, I like the DVD's colors best.
And compared to the Japanese HDTV broadcast, not exact frames (I did this super quick):
JPN top/Cinemax bottom
As promised, I did a quick capture of the beginning with my game capture card (it screws up the frames so it is not much use as a capture device):
Since I started the talk on the new HDTV copy, I'll get some pics. The colors have been Cameron-ized by the way
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Forgot to ask: theatrical or special edition? If it's the latter - the one I prefer - if you, or someone else, could capture it, and send it to me, I hereby promise to make a [spoRv] version with both PCM and AC3 taken from laserdisc, bit-perfect... if you would like to see it, of course!
Sadly it is the theatrical version.