PDB

Thanks for the write up hairy_hen. Your audio expertise knows no equal.

Stamper said:

Yes, I bought the steelbook, but it stays unopened on the shelf. This is the see version for me.

 Agreed, my default also, whether the DVD had the right colors or not.

AntcuFaalb said:

AntcuFaalb said:

Does anyone here have checksums or the original torrent file from MySpleen? I was able to pull the US theatrical release off of an old HDD and I want to make sure no errors occurred during the transfer. Thanks.

I really need this before I feel comfortable sharing this with people. I don't want to pass along 50GiB of corrupted data.

 I think I have the original torrent file from myspleen, AntcuFaalb. I had to search an old laptop. I think it is CTB82USTC_TB.torrent (I assume for the Conan The Barbarian 1982 US Theatrical Cut). I will PM you with the file to not clog up this thread. Pretty sure I have NOTLD too.

jero32 said:

 I was under the impression that the "legacy" cuts of blade runner were sourced from interpositives?

edit: Turns out I had a misconception about interpositives, I thought they were already color timed, but it seems that they're merely USED to do the color timing.

"After a film is shot, the original negatives—taken directly from the camera equipment—are edited into correct sequence and printed onto fresh stock as a cohesive film, creating an interpositive print used for color timing. From the interpositive, answer prints, which include the color-corrected imagery and a properly synced sound track, are made. Once approved by the studio, the final answer print is made into an internegative used for striking copies that will be delivered to theaters for viewing."

So ya even if they scanned an interpositive, they'd stil need to color correct it properly if you want the theatrical colors.

edit2: Word of warning though, just because the laserdisc has a certain set of colors, does not mean those are correct either. Although in this case they'll most likely be more accurate than the blurays.

I thought it was a combination of ON and IP for fill in parts (Workprint not withstanding) but maybe you are right. I have to go look at my BDs to see if the scans differ outside of the obvious differences. Regardless, you are also right, both the ON and IP need to be color timed.

Concerning the laserdisc, you are also absolutely right jero32. I don't want to give an impression that it is an absolutely authority on colors. Just as I have been very specific to say that the Alien '95 LD is not the end authority for the colors for that film (but circumstantial evidence points to it being closer to a release print then the BD). That Blade Runner LD just has the golden hues/bright colors that I remember on every VHS copy I had and that I noticed missing immediately on the BD. When I add them to the BD it looks pretty neat.

thxita said:

It will be for laserdisc nostalgia.

Exactly, treat it not as the authority in colors but an alternative to the BDs.

kaosjm said:

BDgeek said:

WOW, those Blade Runner BD caps with LD colors are just amazing!

Imagine a fixed BD color timing with LD PCM audio! (Now I'm hooked for this to become a future project)

This sounds awesome but which cut of the film would be theatrically correct - the original theatrical cut with narration, the '92 cut, the definitive cut? The definitive cut has only been released on BD and I trust those colors because that is what was intended by Ridley Scott but if we're talking about absolute original colors then I'd imagine we are also talking about the original cut and what that looked like in 1982.

The 1982 laserdisc is available on spleen so that could help as a reference.

Again this was a test. I still have to finish Alien (Aliens) and I don't want to bite off more then can chew. Having said that I was thinking the International Cut (with the extra violence) regraded. Adding the International Cut Dolby Stereo/Surround PCM 2.0 that BusterD and NeonBible put together as track 1. For track 2 the same soundtrack but with filled in parts from the Director's Cut soundtrack BusterD did, eliminating the voice over narrative. The only problem is the voice over in the "happy ending" part.

Yeah the LD I was referencing is the '82 from the spleen. Its a mess but the colors are a keeper, so I took the colors and tweaked the BD as close as possible (the '82 is P&S also).

I need to get the video from the Criterion LD also as a comparison. If anyone can send it to me, I would appreciate it. 

I've officially derailed my own thread but I just wanted to gauge interest in this as a possible next project. See if people thought it was worth doing. 

That Blade Runner collection is fantastic but sadly, neither the 30th Anniversary nor the 5 disc collection have the right color timing (the way I remember them) for the Theatrical/International Cut). Those top pics are from the 5 disc, which has the same video as the 30th. The theatrical had a golden hue on its release prints. Its the same as Alien, they went back to the negative and didn't color time to a release print. Instead everything was given a cool blue color timing (the Final Cut was given a green hue like Alien, which is Scott's prerogative since its his Final Cut.)

It might make a fun future project. Those pics were just a test to see what a re-timing might look like. Back to work on Alien...

Small update. I gave up on using the Dolby Surround/Stereo from the Pan and Scan laserdisc I have. Beside being massively out of sync, the fox fanfare seemed like the wrong version. Jonno was nice enough to give me a copy of the soundtrack from the collector's edition laserdisc which is better in all respects.

Also someone was nice enough to post a rip of a Hong Kong laserdisc of Alien on the organ. The shuttlecraft scene has more or less the same orange/red tinting of the 95 laserdisc that is missing from the BD. More evidence that the tint was mostly likely on release prints but not the negative.

They also posted a rip of an old Blade Runner laserdisc. It has terrible video but looks like it was sourced from release print. It was nice to see the original golden hues/bright colors that the BDs have lost. And while I'm in a Ridley Scott mood, I tried placing that golden hue (based on that weak laserdisc) back into the BD:

BD/BD with LD colors

drngr said:

PDB said:

He indicated that the CDS was created using a Dolby Stereo encoder/decoder to create a surround channel. That means that the CDS would most likely have mono surrounds. That's important to note because even though CDS supports full 5.1, Terminator 2's CDS track would be 4.1

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but he specifically said "for the music".

 Very true but then he talks about stereo-izing the effects from the re-mix so it implies mono surrounds for music and effects. And dvdmike is right, most CDS are 4.0/4.1 (like Edward Scissorhands). Also the Live DVD is 4.1 so that is either from the theatrical 4.1 master or someone up-mix a Dolby Stereo mix.

At the end of the day I'm all for getting a print if someone can swing it. Changes or not I always love to hear the pure theatrical sound.

dvdmike said:

The same in every version? The SE had a full near field remix for home video starting with the LD release so there are at least two mixes not including the digital / analogue mixes 

I meant the sound effects not the mix. Rydstorm says he didn't change the effects in the interview.

I posted that earlier piece from the Rydstrom interview because it not only tells us what he changed but what he changed it from. He gives us a clue as to what the CDS track or the studio theatrical master, would of sounded like. He indicated that the CDS was created using a Dolby Stereo encoder/decoder to create a surround channel. That means that the CDS would most likely have mono surrounds. That's important to note because even though CDS supports full 5.1, Terminator 2's CDS track would be 4.1:

He also says in the interview, that in this remix he stereo-ized the surrounds. So all discrete versions before that interview would be 4.1. So when I check the Live/Artisan DVD's AC3 track:

it has mono surrounds. All the soundtracks after this DVD in the US have split/stereo surrounds (and EX, ES, etc). So that means this DVD came from either the CDS soundtrack, a Dolby Stereo master or the master used to make both of those tracks. It looks like Disclord was right (which he always seemed to be).

(Rydstorm also says he didn't change any of the sounds which I believe, since T2 has sounded the same in every version I have ever heard)

I remember reading this a while ago, I don't think I saw it posted here:

WSR Sun: Did you work with the stems, or just the final mix?

Rydstrom: I worked from the final mix stems, so I had the dialogue, music and effects separate and was able to do some remixing from those. I did some re-balancing between those elements, but mostly what I was doing was re-positioning some of the effects in the surround channel, placing them into the back surround channel and shifting some content from the front to the surrounds. I also generated surround channels for the music. The music actually consisted of only the front channels, and when we did the original mix, we generated a surround channel for the 70mm CDS version with the Dolby Stereo matrix encoder, which gave us just mono surround for the music. [CDS is Cinema Digital Sound, a short-lived digital film sound format.WSR Sun] So for this remixing, I did a pass where I would generate, through reverb units and the like, stereo reverb surround channels for the music.

http://www.widescreenreview.com/news_exdetail.php?title=vanling

Some nice new additions from Nirbateman for the James Bond fan:

Movie: James Bond 01 Dr No

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1234L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes:  Banned commentary. Not perfectly synced because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3. first 10 seconds slightly sped up and cut to accommodate the new logos.

Movie: James Bond 01 Dr No

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1234L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Music/Effects only track. Not perfectly synced because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3

Movie: James Bond 02 From Russia With Love

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1266L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Banned commentary. Not perfectly synced because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3

Movie: James Bond 03 Goldfinger

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1267L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Banned commentary. Not perfectly synched because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3. first 10 seconds slightly sped up and cut to accommodate the new logos.

Movie: James Bond 03 Goldfinger

Format: Criterion Laserdisc CC1267L

Input Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Output Soundtrack: AC3 Mono 192 KBPS 48 kHz, 16-bit, not bit perfect

Synced To: Official Blu ray release

Ripped/Synced by: Nirbateman

Notes: Music/Effects only track. Not perfectly synched because I didn't wish to edit and re-convert a very lossy AC3

Great write up Starthoughts. This sounds like a great addition. I went back to the 99 DVD to listen to the droid part. Very cool.

DoomBot said:

PDB your inbox is full and i can't pm you.  :)

 Sorry, Doombot, its clear. I have trouble keeping up with that sometimes.

Beber said:

I'm using TsMuxeR GUI 1.10.6, and it supports dts-HDMA.

 Good to know. Last time I made a BD with tsmuxer, it didn't support it or just didn't work. Only DTS-HD, which is all it shows on its feature list and the changelog (which is very non-specific). I had to convert to PCM. I know it worked for Dolby True but its rare to find someone with an encoder for that. DTS-HD MA seems to be more common and more compatible. 

nirbateman said:

Couldn't Flac be used in the same manner to save space?

 Only if making a MKV. FLAC won't decode in a Blu-ray player. Its not part of the BD specs.

StarThoughts said:

Would it be possible to encode the two PCM tracks, the LD Dolby Stereo track and hairy_hen's isolated score (awesome — makes this release even more exciting!!!!) with lossless compression to save more room for video? Would it matter?

It would matter because compressing the PCM to DTS-HD MA could save at least 1 GB in space, maybe more. That could be used for video, which is always a good thing. I don't have the DTS-HD MA encoder but I'm sure a kind soul could encode the tracks for me.

The problem is that I need a (free) Blu-ray authoring software that supports DTS-HD MA (or True). I was planning on using tsMuxer to build a basic BD and it only supports lossy and PCM. I believe multiAVCHD doesn't support lossless either (and is buggy to use). Not sure about AVCHDcoder. The only free software that I know that does support lossless is Easy BD lite and I could never get that to work properly. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

bigrob said:

I'd call it Alien - The 70mm Experience

well, without the slightly cropped AR (which is 2.20:1 IIRC for 70mm print?)

Ha that might be overpromising. I don't think I can duplicate a 70mm experience, soundtrack not withstanding. But it is a good title....

thxita said:

hairy_hen said:

Some official releases of Alien do have music-only tracks, but the editing isn't always right and the sound quality is not as good as the Intrada CD version, which came from the master tapes and not from higher generation duplicates.

 1999 DVD had the music-only option. I'm curious about your high quality source though!

Yeah I'm curious too. This sounds like it will trump the 99 music only track.

thxita said:

Is this going to be call Alien Laserdisc HD edition? 

That's a good question. I'm open to ideas. I was think about Alien: The Theatrical Experience but I can only back that up with the sound, still not 100% sure how close the LD is to a 35mm release print. Its the theatrical cut with the BD's detail and LD's colors with audio from both sources. Some sort of title could be cobbled together from that.

nirbateman said:

At this size, the bitrate should float at around 20 MBPS, which is pretty respectable.

That's what I'm hopefully for. I don't want to compromise the video. Looks like the BD's original theatrical cut video is 22 GB sans the audio and subs. So this will be relatively close.

hairy_hen said:

How would you like an isolated score to go with it?  I actually made one a few years ago using the Intrada 2-CD set, synched with the 2003 DVD release; though it has never been part of any fan project.  With a bit of further editing it could be made to line up with the Bluray video.

Some official releases of Alien do have music-only tracks, but the editing isn't always right and the sound quality is not as good as the Intrada CD version, which came from the master tapes and not from higher generation duplicates.

Since the film underwent a lot of editing after Jerry Goldsmith completed scoring—and because he and Ridley Scott had very great creative differences in their approach to how the music should be used—many scenes differ greatly from how the composer had conceived them.  I had to do a fair amount of editing to get the original score to line up with the actual movie, but this is the closest way to experience the music the way it was first intended to be.

If there is interest in including such a track in this project, I shall be glad to provide it.

 I would love to include it hairy_hen. That sounds like a fantastic addition. I actually never knew about the 2 disc Intrada soundtrack. I have the old 1 disc, so this will be a treat for me also, especially since it goes back to the original tapes. I assume it is PCM 2.0?

With the addition of the isolate score, and figuring a 25GB BD:

~1GB for the two 70mm tracks in AC3 5.1/4.1

~1.5 GB for the Dolby Stereo/Surround in PCM 2.0

~1.5 GB for the Isolated Score in PCM 2.0

So approximately 4 GB for the soundtracks. So that leaves 17-19 GB for video (depending on gigabyte vs gigabit, formatting, overhead, subs, etc).

ilovewaterslides said:

PDB said:

Awesome! Is that 8 reels?

 Lol, thanks waterslides.

Awesome! Is that 8 reels?

It seems we are all in agreement that to get the true look of Alien we would need a theatrical print from '79. Scanning from the negative, as hairy_hen points out, is often the best details but not the right colors.

Sorry, thxita I thought you were quoting someone about the jacket, the way the forum posted it. I fixed my reply to reflect that was not the case. Anyway, you are right the model's true color means nothing towards the true colors of the film but that is the same for the jacket as Jonno pointed out. My point with the model was you can't pick out any detail and say this points to the true colors. Which you already pointed out so I guess we agree.

The problem I have with the '99 DVD is that it is way too bright. Brighter then the BD and LD. You are seeing details that shouldn't be seen in a dark and scary movie. I also checked the shuttle scene to see if it had any tinting like the LD and it has none (or very, very little). So the 99 has no tinting, the BD has select scenes and the LD has it consistently through. Its very odd. I thought that maybe the '99 was a scan right off of the ON and the neutral tones and brightness reflected that but I found this last night:

LD/99 DVD/BD with LD colors

The remnants of the Nostromo's explosion are different on the BD. Its a few seconds longer and starts off more oval before thinning and then fading. On the DVD and LD it starts out thin and then fades. It doesn't look like a new effect or a re-composite so maybe something missing since the ON? Just an interesting note. 

Updating my progress. I finished the first go around color-grading. I watched the new video compared to the LD and found a few dozens scenes that need tweaking. So I'm working on that. The 4.1 is synced (obviously). the 5.1 Sensuround is synced and the Dolby Stereo/PCM 2.0 is being worked on. The goal is a BD, no menus (I can't make them) built with TSmuxer probably.

I know that color timing and real life colors are two different things but judging from the first screen grabs where we see Dallas around the table wearing the jacket and since I owned that RAF jacket I can tell you that the colors on bluray are the most faithful to real life (perhaps just a tad brighter), DVD close enough, laserdisc colors are completely off.

Just a curiosity for you guys. Great job here. I didn't know there were so many different "color versions" of the same frigging movie!

That's right to a certain degree and wrong to a certain degree also.

Its always good to have this discussion. Unless someone has access to a non-faded print from 1979 (not just the negative which would not have final color timing), we will never know the true colors. And finding and scanning a non-faded print from the 70s with the bad Kodak film they had those years would be difficult.

Opposed to the the RAF jacket, you could also focus on the Nostromo model which is tinted blue in the BD. Having seen pics of the model I can say that's wrong. It was gray colored similar to the way it looks in the LD and 99 DVD. Like he said life and film are different.

I can't say the LD is the definitive color palette of Alien. I can't say that it is "right". All I can say, is that there is some evidence that it may be "righter" then the BD in certain spots. Jonno's scans, the fact it looks more 70's, etc. If it helps, treat it as a fun alternative to the BD and not the definitive version, that's what I'm doing.

I can also say the BD is not right either. In fact the more I watch, the more I start to see all the strange color inconsistencies. Look at the Ash head scene in that youtube clip I posted. In the BD white, in the LD blue. But the BD also has scenes with the back of Ash's head having a blue tint when shot facing Ripley. Did they forget to correct the blue out or did they put it in by accident? Or this, the BD and LD both have a orange/red tint:

BD/BD with LD Colors (Ignore the framing, I did this quickly)

But then the BD immediately loses it, tending more back to white for the helmet:

Then gains the tint back for a close up of the grappling hook and loses it again right after:

Very strange. It matches the LD pretty well in those tint scenes. Then goes its own way on a whim. Maybe instead of intentional, we have hit the era of lazy color correction.

AntcuFaalb said:

News just came in that a close friend of mine, Ty (disclord@LDDb), has died.

He's the reason I have the Runco LJR-II.

This project will be dedicated to his memory.

Fuck. :-(

 That's terrible news. He seemed like a nice guy and his knowledge was second to none. He was the reason I picked up a Shure HTS for Dolby Stereo/Surround decoding. I was always hopeful he would eventually contribute here at the OT. He will be missed.

BDgeek said:

I agree with you PDB, based on Jonno's post, the 99 DVD is by far the best.

BTW, congratulations on this effort, it's shaping up to be a fantastic project!

 Thanks BDgeek! Although I like the 99 coloring, I'm going to keep the blue of the LD because of it's unique nature and the circumstantial evidence there was some sort of tint when filming

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

The Mother control room scene is a bit too saturated IMHO, but the BD is too pale - maybe something in between should be tested.

The Ash head scene made me think... as you wrote, Ash's top of the head is blue also in the BD, plus his shirt is not so pale when he is still "alive"... the BD seems to have the most natural color grading, but this should be not considered the "right" one... watching the 35mm frames, the LD it closer than the other ones, even if LD tends to blue and 35mm to green, but the others tend to be white.

(because I'm not using the usual display, and colors here are what they are, please take these notes with a grain of salt...)

 Good points all around. I think youtube made the colors a little darker/redder but it is still true to source. I will try a little lighter, toward the white and see how it plays. Thanks for the advice, Andrea and thanks for looking.

About the Ash scene, I can't say the LD is right (should it be white, blue or green?) at all but the BD is way, way too white. Especially since the shots don't match up. If anything based on the pics Jonno posted, I like the 99 best.