PDB

kk650 said:

PDB said:

kk650 said:

Fleshtones are all very nice and orange in those 35mm shots of Aliens, I think you want to try to make sure you're getting those just right, I can see a little green in those fleshtones as well so you've got leeway to lean in that direction if you want, i'd personally avoid leaning towards the reds though in terms of fleshtones, the characters looking permanently sunburnt is not a good look IMHO. 

Lights look nice and yellow as well, could probably use a little more red though to warm them up a bit more, at least for my taste.

I really like how the colours of those 35mm prints look! If you get the fleshtones and lightsources looking like those in the Aliens 35mm prints, you'll definately be onto something great here IMHO.

I would love to time my regrade of Aliens off those 35mm frames. I too like the coloring which has warmer skin tones and more saturated colors then the DVD, less extreme then the LD. There are two problems. One I'm pretty sure that they are from a trailer so they may not be the final color timing of an Aliens print. Second there are too few to figure out the correct timing for every scene. Some of those 35mm frames match the DVD best, some the LD and some the BD (the scenes without horrible green). Looks like I should correct to the LD and pull the saturation down and lighten the skin tones or grade to the DVD and increase the saturation, make the skin tones warmer and increase the contrast. Oh well need to finish Alien first before any of that.

Hmm that is tricky. If I was you I would use the 35mm frames you have as a rough guide for what the fleshtones and lightsources should look like throughout the film. Use the LD and DVD colours as a guide as well of course but try to maintain a consistant look colourwise to each scene and that makes sense in relation to the lightsources and their colour. I always personally put the most importance on maintaining consistancy in fleshtone colour throughout the film, taking into account the lightsources of the scene in question and how the light would affect those fleshtone colour. Nothing takes me out of a film quicker than constantly changing fleshtone colours that don't make sense taking into account the lightsources present in the scene.

When in doubt, go with your gut and most important of all with grading, at least that i've found from my experience, of course take into account all the different opinions about how you should go about regrading this but ultimately when in doubt, go with what YOU like. Remember that when it comes down to it you are grading for yourself, creating a regrade that is appealing to you. Remembering that will keep you sane when all the different opinions leave you confused and conflicted, its impossible to make everybody happy. Keeping that in mind has certainly helped keep me sane in the past haha

 Thanks kk650, good advice all around. I really appreciate the knowledge (and the bit about making everyone happy). Consistency is something that I'm working hard on and seems to be the most difficult thing to achieve. Alien seems to be a little hard in that regard since it is either very dark or has very bright lighting, sometimes often in the same scene. So fleshtones on the LD can be all over the place in a long tracking shots. The BD seems to have fixed this by making all the Caucasian skintones super pale but the problem is that creates a ton inconsistency in those shots also. Not sure I'm skilled enough to fix everything. I'm trying to finish the entire movie and get it as close to the laserdisc as possible and then go back and tweek shot to shot for consistency.

I might do a few versions of Aliens and see which ends up being thebest.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

100% agree! One of the best first attempt of a fan restoration - mine was a half disaster in comparison...

I doubt that but thank you for the kind words Andrea. Hope I can live up to them.

Here are two of the problematic scenes. Ripley in the Mother control room and blue head Ash. This is a first pass. I still need to adjust a few things (and youtube makes it look a little redder on some monitors): 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwVLayvMTR8&feature=youtu.ber

Funny thing is, in the shots of Ripley where you can see the top of Ash's served head. They have a slight blue tint, even on the BD. That makes me think the blue might not be totally out of line. I post these shots since they will be the most controversial but it is in keeping with the LD and Jonno's pics.

Thanks again Silverwook and thanks StarThoughts. I found a local theater showing GB and saw it over the weekend. Definitely, worth the experience

Matt_Stevens said:

PDB said:

Glad to hear your progress Matt. I find English soundtracks hard to sync up so I can only imagine the difficulty with HK soundtracks which were never in sync to begin with.

 Imagine pulling your hair out in frustration. It's insane how bad the foley work and dubbing was. There will be a sequence with two gun shots, four kicks and three punches. Half will be spot on, 1/4 just off and the other 1/4 way off. So now try and fix that. 

Then you have the dialog. It's never spot for the earlier films because they were all dubbed in post. What a nightmare. 

SUPERCOP was easy in comparison to Drunken Master 2 but had its own challenges. That was Jackie Chan's first HK film to utilize on set sound recording and so for dialog scenes it was possible to get it exactly right. Except for when certain lines or scenes were dubbed, which happened here and there. Particularly during action scenes where it was impossible to get rid of rubbery lips that were always there. If music is being played, you just can't mess with it. 

By the way, most HK films have the sound of a punch or a kick occurring one or two frames before the action. The Hollywood (Miramax) English dubs have sound work that is typically frame accurate so a gun shot occurs at the exact frame of the muzzle flash. But for some strange reason punches and kicks are typically a frame after the actual contact is taking place. So a full 3 or 4 frames after the original mixes. 

 Yeah that sounds right. Well I'm glad you have the patience to see it through. That would drive me nuts.

dark_jedi said:

LOL it is crickets here, does anyone have Dracula 1979 either on VHS or LD and can provide screens?

and I assume no one has Silver Bullet LD?

 Try PMing Puggo and see if he still has a copy of the earlier Dracula '79 LD:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Dracula-1979-The-original-theatrical-color-version/topic/9303/

I think the Other Preservation has been quiet for a couple months now, mostly due to the summer months and August being a dead month around here. It will probably pick up now that it is September. Having said that I have noticed a few regulars have been missing for a while...

The Terminators look great.

SilverWook said:

I saw it on a XD cinema screen Thursday night. It thankfully looked like film. Grain was intact, which I'm sure the clueless elsewhere will complain about. I was a little surprised how soft some of the original photography was. Shots in the second half of the film were much sharper.

There was one optical FX element wobbling right before Mr. Staypuft steps on the church. Everything else held up pretty well for a thirty year old film. I guess 35mm release prints concealed a lot of warts.

The colors on things like the library ghost, and the proton beams were vivid and beautiful.

For some reason, I never noticed Slimer has a huge buttcrack before. O_O

I think I've tuned out all the not so subtle Coke product placement all these years, (they owned Columbia at the time) but it's there. ;)

The soundtrack was respectful for a remix, (although I'm sure GB had a 70mm release?) and I didn't detect any modern meddling. For the first time, I was able to make out what tv show is overheard when the guys are searching the Sedgewick Hotel hallways.

For those of you who have never seen it, here's Zuul on Saturday Night Live in 1986. ;)

https://archive.org/details/SigourneyWeaverAsSexyZuul-ChurchChat

 Damn I wish I had gone to see it then. Thanks SilverWook. 

StarThoughts said:

PDB said:

Silly question. Since I have been watching Alien so many times lately I began to wonder: does Dallas knows Ash is an android? Ash is the only person on the ship that Dallas listens to and sometimes takes orders from. When Ash says the facehugger has to go back Dallas accepts that decision in the face of everything that's happened. Dallas as the captain is the only one to have access directly to Mother so its not unreasonable to think he might know an android is aboard also. He seems to know that Ash equals the company. 

I don't think so; not that Dallas couldn't have accessed the information (if Ripley had clearance once she took command of the ship, he would have had it the whole time), but that he would have had no reason to think he should. He does mention that Ash was a late addition to the crew and that he had no explanation for the replacement, but goes no further, suggesting that he just sort of shrugged and went with it.

Ash gets to make certain decisions where the science section has authority (this is not the same thing as breaking quarantine regulations, which Ash clearly did with ulterior motives).

 All very true StarThoughts. Just thought it was strange that Dallas cared so much about what Ash thought, science officer or not. 

kk650 said:

Fleshtones are all very nice and orange in those 35mm shots of Aliens, I think you want to try to make sure you're getting those just right, I can see a little green in those fleshtones as well so you've got leeway to lean in that direction if you want, i'd personally avoid leaning towards the reds though in terms of fleshtones, the characters looking permanently sunburnt is not a good look IMHO. 

Lights look nice and yellow as well, could probably use a little more red though to warm them up a bit more, at least for my taste.

I really like how the colours of those 35mm prints look! If you get the fleshtones and lightsources looking like those in the Aliens 35mm prints, you'll definately be onto something great here IMHO.

I would love to time my regrade of Aliens off those 35mm frames. I too like the coloring which has warmer skin tones and more saturated colors then the DVD, less extreme then the LD. There are two problems. One I'm pretty sure that they are from a trailer so they may not be the final color timing of an Aliens print. Second there are too few to figure out the correct timing for every scene. Some of those 35mm frames match the DVD best, some the LD and some the BD (the scenes without horrible green). Looks like I should correct to the LD and pull the saturation down and lighten the skin tones or grade to the DVD and increase the saturation, make the skin tones warmer and increase the contrast. Oh well need to finish Alien first before any of that.

EDIT: Nah, that's not fair for me to say, i'm sure there are many here on this site, the silent majority that rarely post and even some regular posters here I imagine, that enjoy my releases a great deal and post their thanks on tehparadox where they feel more at liberty to do so and it is very much appreciated. I'm very glad that you also like what i've done with my previous releases. Hopefully I can inspire others to start doing their own regraded releases like you are doing with Alien and Aliens.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you do with these two films, those 35mm frames look very nice. Like Andrea, I'm very happy to see others joining the fray, trying their hand at grading and putting out their own releases, very happy indeed.

Yeah you are being too hard on yourself, trust me there are a lot of people here who like your work kk650.

This is my first project ever, hopefully my work can live up to the high standards that have been set here. I'm getting close. 

StarThoughts said:

I just came back from a screening of Ghostbusters.

The big reveal of Mr. Stay-Puft thundering through Columbus Circle is still one of the best — and funniest — shots in the film.

Also, on the big screen it's easier to see the room service lady try to extinguish a flaming toilet paper roll with her little spray bottle, a background gag that usually gets lost on television dimensions.

 How did the DCP/video look?

Glad to hear your progress Matt. I find English soundtracks hard to sync up so I can only imagine the difficulty with HK soundtracks which were never in sync to begin with.

Lil Brutto said:

BIG UPDATE: Payment for the print has been sent a few minutes ago.

I'm hoping we'll continue to raise funds for the next steps...

 Fantastic!

Silly question. Since I have been watching Alien so many times lately I began to wonder: does Dallas knows Ash is an android? Ash is the only person on the ship that Dallas listens to and sometimes takes orders from. When Ash says the facehugger has to go back Dallas accepts that decision in the face of everything that's happened. Dallas as the captain is the only one to have access directly to Mother so its not unreasonable to think he might know an android is aboard also. He seems to know that Ash equals the company. 

Jonno said:

PDB said:

So the 82 and 92 are pretty consistent, Jonno? White Ash scene?

More or less. Presenting the exciting saga of Ash's head:

 Sounds like the name of an art film or a hipster band. That does show that the timing is slightly different every time Alien has been transferred making it all the more confusing. It also shows that at a minimum the BD is way too bright. You can see more detail in the back and on the wall then you can in any other transfer, even the 1999 DVD which is overall brighter then the BD. Your capture of the '95 is similar to mine, with the level of dark and the hue of the blue. Thanks Jonno

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

It's interesting to note that DVD (and even CAV LD) has a bit more image present on the sides, in comparison to BD (as D-Theater, by the way...)

It is interesting. If I did my math right, the '95 LD is about 2.52:1 so its showing information that would of been cut off by the film gate. Same with the '99 DVD: 2.52. The BD is about 2.33:1 so too much information removed. The D-VHS is the closest at 2.35 but in 1979 they had already moved from 2.35 to 2.39. Might be splitting hairs but the D-VHS has the truest aspect ratio assuming it was framed correctly. I would of used the D-VHS if not for it being the director's cut. 

I like that color timing. Slightly yellow, no green and bright blues like the old International cut DVD and LDs. Looks like that's an IB tech trailer too

BDgeek said:

Since Ghostbusters 2 now looks fantastic on BD, it would be awesome to get the LD PCM synced to it.

Anyone up to it?

 I'd love it too...

Concerning the brightness of last pic of Ripley from Aliens as nirbateman and applesandrice pointed out. That ended up being a mistake. I was running a test h.264 encode and taking a look at it through VLC. I had just downloaded the newest version and forgot to turn off the "Use hardware YUV->RGB Conversion" which brightens the pic like that when I took a snapshot. So that does not reflect the newest changes. That's why I post here, to get the bugs out. Everyone saw a problem and I could fix it.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

I was forced to be offline due to my HDTV (actually my only monitor) had to be fixed, and in just ten days all this happened?!? Well... WONDERFUL!!! (^^.)

I'm so happy a "new wave" of fan restorers is rising up!

Back to topic: I think LD color grading is the way to go, apart some shots that should NOT be used, like Ash's head scene.

Last Aliens regrade (bottom pic) is very good, but I'd try also the channels remix way - the more options, the better IMHO.

About LD 2.0 track: which LD will you use? Because I think there *could* be different mixes out there, *maybe* also analog and PCM could be different...

Thanks for posting here Andrea. I briefly talked to Andrea before I created this thread to get his advice and he has always been encouraging. Frankly, seeing his work with the Carpenter discs made me want to try some projects myself.

For Alien's 2.0, I'm using this LD:

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/10590/1090-80/Alien-(1979)

And Aliens, this one:

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/10644/1504-80/Aliens-(1986)

They are the oldest US LDs I can find with a digital soundtrack (ie PCM DS 2.0). Apparently the LDs right before that were analog but the Dolby Stereo/Surround for both was not properly matrixed.

FremenDar2019 said:

Damn nice! Here's hoping you'll be putting these both on BD50s. How about a custom BD50 Extended Edition of ALIEN with 1979 cinematic color timing? Don't forget subtitles either!

Again not sure how I'm going to present or distribute this work if and when I finish (also assuming people will want a copy). I'm leaning towards Blu-ray (people can always make an MKV out of this) but they would be simple BDs since I can't do menus. Figuring out how to author those BDs is another battle. Also I will definitely need some help from people to test burn the BD. I only have a PS3/Xbox1 for a BD player and they are very forgiving.

I also need to decide what to put out there. I'm definitely going to do Alien (Theatrical Cut) with LD colors and Aliens (Theatrical Cut) with LD colors. I am leaning towards doing Aliens (TC) with DVD colors since the LD version is leaning too red for most people.

So maybe one disc Alien (25GB) and another Aliens LD colors and Aliens DVD colors on another (50GB)? Or maybe one disc of Alien LD colors and Alien 99 DVD colors (50GB)? Or one disc of Alien and Aliens LD colors the another of DVD colors...Maybe I'm being way too ambitious and should do 25 GB for Alien LD, one for Aliens LD and one for Aliens DVD. That's a decision that's still a while off.

Jonno said:

StarThoughts said:

Regarding the audio: Did the AC-3 LD have a Dolby Surround version of the Sensurround test track, or was it the same mix from the CAV box set (which I think was the 35 millimeter Dolby Stereo)?

Both the AC-3 and the PCM mixdown on that disc are the same mix, i.e. the 'Sensurround' version. I'm fairly certain that the CAV disc's mix is the standard Dolby Stereo - like the Star Wars mixes, the home video versions may have been slightly tweaked, but all the tapes and discs from 1982 to 1992 sound fundamentally the same.

Good to see Andrea aboard! I've been doing a few captures of the laserdiscs in my collection (a 1982 PAL disc, the 1992 Collector's set and the 1995 THX AC-3). It appears that some of the more contentious shots in the 1995 (the Mother room, Ash's head) are exclusive to that release; since they appear to reflect original 35mm print timing, perhaps the THX disc was a conscious effort to represent an authentic theatrical look (as well as sound)?

So the 82 and 92 are pretty consistent, Jonno? White Ash scene? I still like to stick to the 95 not only from what you found Jonno but since it just looks different enough to be interesting. Something worth doing. Also found this difference:

BD/BD with LD Colors

Its when Kane gives "birth" to the chestburster. Its the same dinner table used later in the Ash scene and they gave it a similar blue/green tint.

Despite those odd scenes (Mother, Ash) there are a bunch of scenes that line up between the LD and BD. They are not all together dissimilar. For instance when Ripley confronts Dallas in the hallway, it is the same colors and brightness. Other scenes just need the green color correction removed to line up.

Still working on Alien first but took a break to look at Aliens, trying to reduce the red. I think this is a better look

BD/1st Regrade to LD/2nd Regrade to LD

Thanks Matt,

  Just downloaded and muxing now.

TServo2049 said:

About Aliens: I've never seen Aliens in 35mm, but every 80s LPP print I've seen projected as of late (granted, most of them at the same theater, the Castro in San Francisco) seem to have (Caucasian) skin tones that are pale peach, maybe some muted orange or yellow in them. Skin tones don't usually seem to have too much red/pink in them. Also, fire and propane explosions and pyrotechnics often look very yellow, not much orange.

My question is: Anybody who's seen an original print of Aliens, does that sound at all accurate?

 Most of the vintage 80s 35mm films I've seen at the AFI are slightly yellow/golden in hue.

I've seen Aliens on 35mm in the 2000s and a DCP of it last year. The DCP looked like the Blu-ray (had all the fixes) without the all-encompassing green. The green was there just less. The 35mm was long enough ago that I'm not sure of the exact colors but I did a little research and found these frames from a cutter on ebay:

I don't know if they are from the movie or a trailer and don't know how they were scanned so the colors and saturation might be off. Otherwise, if they can be trusted, they seem like half way between the DVD and LD. Colors less saturated then the LD and more saturated then the DVD. It has the blue and green highlights that the LD has but that were muted in the DVD. Skin tones are warmer then the DVD but not the extreme of the LD. 

Edit: I was going through youtube and it does look like it comes from a trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKSQmYUaIyE

kk650 said:

I must say that I find the colour grading of the laserdisc and those 35mm shots pretty unusual to say the least, especially the fleshtones, looks like a completely different film to the Alien i've seen.

Definately Very interested in checking this out when you release this though PDB, it'll be like watching Alien again for the very first time. :)

 Thanks kk650. Hopefully the project will be worth it when I'm done. I think we have ample evidence that Alien had warmer fleshtones in theaters then its current color grading. Just need to figure out the rest of the colors.

Love your work btw.

Jonno said:

A great start, PDB. I have yet to do my own laserdisc capture to compare with (I have the 1992 collector's edition here, which should serve well enough) but here are a few preliminary observations (based on more scrutiny of the book's frame blowups):

Planet exteriors: if anything, the 'new' colouring seems more accurate - judging from the book, this stuff was shot with a very cool blue filter (towards turquoise). I wouldn't change those.

Ash's bubble: should be very neutral: not blue, but not purple either. Just dial it back until the grey panels lose all the blue colouration.

Ripley: I can see why this shot was so problematic! The trick will be to take out the teal and rosy up the skin tones without giving the whole shot a pink/purple cast. The shadows (particularly her hair) should remain black, rather than reddish-black. Hopefully there aren't too many challenging shots like this.

Dallas and Lambert in the airlock, Ash in the airlock bay: look terrific. Perhaps just look at that Ash profile again, which is way too hot at the moment.

Of course my reference has its own limitations, so you should judge what you're happiest with. But good progress overall!

 On the road this weekend Jonno, so I'm late responding. I agreed with StarThoughts about the red so I peeled it back a bit. Here are the results:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/67ac87

The old regrade with the red is on the top and the new one is on the bottom. The bottom one continues into the facehugger revel which I finished grading.

I regraded this last night before reading this post Jonno so it doesn't reflect your concerns yet. I will run another round and see if can fix those items.

I have to say I've never used the channel mixer before. I will have to try it out when I'm back at my computer. Looks like you got great results. Also thanks NeverarGreat about the advice also.

Also contrast is an important discussion. I figure that I should grade the whole thing first and then decide about global contrast (or maybe that's a dumb idea)

StarThoughts said:

I for one think that, while still running a little red, your grading makes the film look a whole lot more 1979 than the Blu-ray does. The airlock interior and the Nostromo exterior in the clip are prime examples of scenes that look a lot more natural in your version. And while the fleshtones are still a bit warm, they look more alive than the relatively sterile appearance of the Blu-ray.

I didn't think of the Blu-ray timing as disastrous, but I noticed right away when I got it that it was very different from how I'm used to seeing the film (CAV box set, then 1999 DVD — I have the Quadrillogy as well, but didn't watch it as often), and I prefer where you're going with this.

Which soundtrack do you intend to use as the default?

 Thanks for watching StarThoughts. Believe it or not that level of red matches the LD capture pretty well but I think you might be right. I will try to dial the red back a little and see how that looks. That also might be a bad example since Ripley has a red cast on her in that scene.

I've never been super upset about the Alien BD either (Aliens is a different story) but I know its not authentic to the time it was made. The color timing on the BD is done to make the movie appear more "modern". I'm trying to get as close to an original print as possible and that means a 70s look. The LD has that look. Nothing wrong with a film looking of its time. I just want to make a great alternative to the BD.

I thought for the soundtracks:

1. LD 5.1 70mm (Default)

2. BD 4.1 70mm 

3. LD 2.0 Dolby Stereo

Here is a test comparison clip (132 MB). This is not the final color regrade to the LD but close. The Blu-ray's colors are on the top and the regrade is on the bottom. There is no sound and please ignore geometry issues with the aspect ratio. Let me know what everyone thinks:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/uxpmxx

Please everyone donate if you can. This print is a pretty big deal and I am totally serious when I say a once in a lifetime opportunity. It is the right time and right print. For everyone who disliked the 4K. Everyone who wants to see TGTB&TU the way it was meant to be seen. This is it.

Jonno said:

Which tools are you using, PDB? Do you have something with an automated matching function, or are you doing it more by eye/histogram?

I settled on using Adobe Premiere, Speedgrade and Davinci Resolve Lite. I use Adobe Premiere to break down the entire movie into individual shots. Even a movie from the 70s has thousands of shots and its super time consuming. From there I was using speedgrade but I found Davinci Resolve Lite 10 (haven't tried 11 yet) which is free and only has a few limitation over the full version (no 4k). Resolve has curves which speed grade lacks. Its great software if you can run it.

I'm actually grading the entire thing shot by shot and then going back over to fine tune. End of story there is no automatic software that works 100%, at some point you have to do some manual work.

bigrob said:

PDB said:

bigrob said:

FYI the R6 DVD contains a 1536kpbs DTS-ES 6.1 (matrixed) audio mix. Could that be possibly an inclusion

so excited for this project. Might even have to fish out my BD cover I designed for Jonno's disc he sent me and forward it to your guys

 I assume that is gray market disc. Do you have a copy bigrob?

I'd love to see the cover, again I don't know if I'm doing a Blu-ray yet...

And speaking of soundtracks, Buster D was nice enough to give me the PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Soundtrack for the extended version of Aliens

 I down't own it yet as it's pretty low on my to buy list at the moment

but it can be purchased for $9 from

http://www.buyoyo.com/buyoyo/eng/ProductDisplay.do?prrfnbr=7296990&prtype=0

 

I got a couple of these Excel Media discs (True Lies & Abyss - official releases btw, not bootlegs) and the bitrate is reportedly maxed out on them as they are film only releases

 Thanks bigrob, I don't think I'm going to use that anyway. I appreciate the info but I think I'm going to stick with the 3 original theatrical soundtracks (LD 5.1, BD 4.1, LD 2.0)

Jonno said:

Ok, here are some more pics. That laserdisc colouring is looking more and more like the real deal.

(Only a partial frame for Brett, unfortunately - the book does occasionally crop shots).

 I'll be damned. I'm very surprised to see see those two shots (Mother and Ash) match up as well as they do. It would of bet my life that neither was accurate. Hell those two shots are why I was leaning to reject the LD.

In a vacuum, the LD alone can't be trusted, neither can the book but together...the evidence piles up. I think I may grade to the LD, and then create three versions, one pure LD, one a bit bright and one a bit greener and brighter. See which one plays best. The LD timing combined with the unique soundtracks will hopefully make this project a great alternative to the Blu-ray.

Thanks Jonno, that was very helpful.