Finally got around to download and scanning through this project. That's some more great work Jerry. Thanks for all the effort.
Agreed with everyone. The trailer looks great. I'm glad you guys are working Project A.
I didn't realize that you had finished Police Story just only Hard Boiled. That's great!
Yeah, at this stage of the game I'm pretty sure all versions of BR on BD have been manipulated to some degree. I'm not sure if that would be an NTSC brightness issues or that the BDs have been darker to look "cooler".
I have put this project on the back burner right now since my priority is finishing Alien first in the limited free time I have. Once that's done, I will get back to Blade Runner.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
It will be great to have a "repository" somewhere...
You know that's been kicked around a bit. It does warrant a discussion.
Personally, I have been slowly moving the tracks, I have, to my Mega account for redundancy and to make it easier to share. Basically I pop a track on there when someone requests it, slowly building the account.
Doombot is right, I been busy the last month but he was nice enough to sync a copy of Blue Thunder which I just added to the list:
Movie: Blue Thunder
Format: Laserdisc 79336
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 48 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: 2009 Blu-ray Release Region A
Ripped/Synced by: Dark Jedi/Doombot
Notes: Contains the original Dolby Stereo soundtrack.
captainsolo said:
Indeed it is Zorro. (still pissed about that limited DVD reissue a few years back, priced way out of reach for broke college students! Now I don't have $400 for ebaying a part of my childhood!)
I went through my many video copies in a few scenes. (Embassy VHS, Criterion CLV, DC LD, 97 DVD, 5 disc DVD UCE, 30th Anniv BD) Still working on my ATI HD750 card for captures but I can't get the darn thing to work.
The Embassy VHS is the same pan n' scan as the LD. Compared directly against the Criterion on my calibrated Trinitron reveals that the older transfer has a contrast boost which dials back some of the deeper color. The Criterion has better blacks and a deeper overall saturation in the color. For example the blue lighting in the opening interrogation is much bluer. The print source is also different, with the Embassy having damage inherent of a release print, and the Criterion seeming to come from a clean scope IP.
Comparing the IC and DC LDs against one another reveals that they really aren't that far apart. The DC LD is wonderfully transferred and benefits from the greater technology from apparently a fresh scan. It is far cleaner and in direct comparison has a fuller color depth than the Criterion IC presentation. It looks a bit more filmlike but otherwise looks very close to the Criterion issue. Imagine toning back the saturation level just a touch and increasing the depth. The DC has much deeper blacks and a greater clarity, but again this is likely from being a more modern scan than anything else.
Comparing the DC LD and DVD shows that the DVD has a red-pink push to it, that pops up in the opening skyline and the now reddish skin tones of Holden and Leon in the interrogation. The digital transfer is technologically superior but one has the awful digital noise look of early DVD and poor compression, and thus the CAV LD offers a more natural presentation and lacks the very slight red-pink push. The DVD is also cropped.
The archival branched DVD reveals a new far more detailed scan of the film that is conformed to all three versions. The biggest difference comes in how the lighting is captured, as from this point forward the film's lighting is no longer limited to NTSC standard and just in the way it comes across the screen in each scene drastically affects the way in which the color appears. The interrogation now alternates between a delicate white and blue light, and Deck's sushi joint has its lighting really carry over the fluorescence and is far closer to what we see in the altered Final Cut.
The Workprint despite its resurrected form from a deteriorated 70mm blowup is the real clue. The new transfer and color correction presents it in as best shape as possible. The color, contrast and brightness actually place it somewhere between the film print based Criterion and DC LDs and the newer transfers done from fresh scans for the Final Cut in 2007. The workprint has the filmic look and brightness levels of the old LDs despite being a new scan because it is film print sourced, but because it was a modern scan it is also able to show and display the greater detail in the intricate lighting scheme. Thus you actually have a representation of the film that has the greater clarity of the new scans with at least some of the look that was generated by printing back to film for release in 1982/1992.
The big difference between the film based transfers and new scans is in the brightness levels and how they work with the intricate lighting. The film printing seems to have darkened the image and taken some of the edge off the lighting in addition to deepening the color saturation. With the new scans the detail was far enhanced and the lighting able to fully work the way it was intended. But without the film transfer there was no manipulation of this through the printing process.
Just my two cents and a real 35mm frame could shed some potential light here. That is what we need to be sure of what was originally presented, as the 4K scan that sourced the Final Cut and presumably the archival versions on DVD/BD could have obviously been slightly manipulated to something more akin to Scott's preferences. For example, Deck's face while messing with chopsticks has bluish light all over it from everything 2006-onwards and is a regular skin tone on the LDs.
I did this as a break from working. Am I mad? ;)
Thanks for the that exhaustive breakdown captainsolo.
Sounds like I should reject the DC DVD out of hand. Too much early DVD-era problems. You said the the Criterion LD looks very similar to the DC LD. Is it similar enough to not be worth using as a source? In your recommendation is it worth me tracking down the DC LD to color grade against? Or if I have the Criterion, I'm good enough. I love the Criterion transfer and even though I feel the Criterion is probably more "true" to the original theatrical prints, I still want to do something with the Embassy transfer. Especially since its the oldest transfer and from a release print. If the Warner DC is different enough also, I want to get a hold of that too.
You mentioned the brightest/contrast differences between the film/LD transfers and the BDs. Do the film/LD transfers all seem to have a similar level of bright/contrast?
Its funny you point out the sushi scene. It is a mess to color correct. Widely different between the LDs and BDs. You and I have reached a similar conclusion. Its that scene and a few others that make me think that all of the BDs have been color corrected to a certain extent beyond what a native scan would be. Hell they would have to be made to match in order for the seamless branching to work.
Scanning a vintage 35mm print of BR would be a dream come true.
Spaced Ranger said:
PDB said:
I don't have that particular scene yet with the Criterion yet (only have a copy of the first side so far). But when I get it I will send it your way. If noise is the problem, the Criterion may not be much more help since it is very soft and noisy.
Thanks -- whenever you can grab'em!
Up until now, noise hasn't been any problem at all for the color (H-S) source. I once made a test H-S-L mix from a half-size, compressed, color YouTube video and the full-size, quality broadcast, B&W TV capture:
It looks just great, even into the shadows! Granted, the overall look of each source was the same (same Lightness spectrum spread -- something I took for granted, up until now).
I'm beginning to think Blade Runner had some funky processing done to it and that the Blu-ray is really a bit of a mess. My first order of business will be a close look at the Blu .PNG to see what it's got and what it's not.
Cool, I will send the PNGs when I get them, Space Ranger. Out of curiosity what movie is that?
Just watched your Last of the Mohicans, Jerry. Great effort, thanks for all the hard work. It was well worth it. I'm glad to be watching LOTM's theatrical cut again. In HD, no less.
Matt_Stevens said:
Another update... Illness prevented me from finishing DM2 so fear not, i am recovering and back on track. My editing partner has taken care of the subtitles and added additional audio tracks (like English dubbing for those who are inclined).
We are back on track so not much longer now and then BOOM, you will see SUPERCOP come right after.
Glad you are feeling better. Gotta say I'm excited by Supercop but DM2 is perhaps one of the best MA film every made, I'm truly excited to see the end results.
Spaced Ranger said:
I am still perplexed by the appearance of "recombination noise". In my assorted proof-of-concepts of the HSL-mix technique, I haven't come across this kind of anomaly. (Although it did prompt the further development of the process -- normalizing the Lightness spectrum between the sources. That alone was worth the work.)
Can you link to non-recompressed, full-sized caps in .PNG format of that exact frame from the Blu-ray (1920x1080) and the Criterion (letterbox) Laserdisc (720x480)? Even if you're not going to consider this approach, I'd like to look into the problem. (Thanks.)
Thanks for the demo and hard work Spaced Ranger. Sorry for the late response, I've been out of town. That's a great detail technical read. Unfortunately, I can get you PNG for that scene with the Blu-ray and Pan and Scan laserdisc. I don't have that particular scene yet with the Criterion yet (only have a copy of the first side so far). But when I get it I will send it your way. If noise is the problem, the Criterion may not be much more help since it is very soft and noisy.
Following up what captainsolo said about the Director's Cut laserdisc, Jonno did some research and found some interesting information in Sammon's Future Noir: Making of Blade Runner:
"There was a last-minute processing error affecting theatrical prints, so some reels looked darker than others.
On the subject of the CAV DC laserdisc, Sammon is quite a fan. In fact he goes so far as to say, "The imagistic and audio qualities of this disc far surpassed those of the BRDC seen in motion picture theaters!"
More specifically, The CAV BRDC laserdisc features warm colors and rich hues that faithfully reproduce the original Blade Runner theatrical viewing experience far better than prior video editions. "
The warmer colors comment is funny since that is the way the other LDs look and totally contrary to the BRs which are clearly darker and colder.
Synnöve said:
If you know someone with a NUKE license you could ask them to try using the matchgrade node on a few clips.
I would love to know someone that has that program. I watched the demo on youtube and it looks pretty cool.
StarThoughts said:
captainsolo said:
I'm now pretty much convinced that the CC is the relative closest to the 1982 theatrical look, but that the 1992 DC reflects more of what the shot material looks like.
That makes a lot of sense.
I was thinking the same thing captainsolo. They probably went back to the negative created a new IP, made the changes and made prints. Since Scott wasn't very involved and it was done quickly I always thought it was close to the negative also or should be.
You mentioned the colors on the DC LD. How different does the DC LD look from the DVD?
Chewtobacca said:
PDB said: Sounds best left to a person who knows what they are doing with AVIsynth scripts.
I'm not quite sure what this means.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant what you described sounds difficult and time consuming and best not left to a novice like me.
Spaced Ranger said:
I never could get that script to work on the system I was using (with all it's Avisynth plugins, something must've conflicted). But, yes, the approach works only within narrow parameters. (They were having trouble with crushed & blown-out areas that simply wouldn't translate right.)
Here's my test. You've got the procedure right.
The Laserdisc provides the coloring (Hue, Saturation):
As shown, the pan & scanLaserdisc had to be resized and aligned to match the Blu-ray (always a pain to do in a paint program).
Just a note here: The source of the Laserdisc had pretty bad color-clumping that showed up ugly when the brightness (inherited from the Blu-ray) was lowered. I had to blur-smooth it to make the color more uniform in the final mix.
..............
Aside from the fact that the Laserdisc rip's noise is coming through, the Blu-ray has some of it's own. They don't mix well and inheriting of the Blu-ray's darkness, to get it's detail, darkens and changes the coloring.
Your earlier posted regrade looks cleaner and more naturally like the Laserdisc:
And I'm guessing a (working) Avisynth script probably won't do better than the paint program demonstration.
It looks like regular color correction is the right approach. I would suggest, if you're going for a match to the Laserdisc, reducing Speedgrade's contrast a little. The face brightness range is a good measure, but it's hard to tell using these LCD monitors with their critical viewing angles.
Thanks for the demo, Spaced Ranger. Its actually a very interesting process. I'm sure as you said the downfall of the process is that the Pan and Scan is a garbage transfer. The old, garbage in, garbage out. While I was reading this, I was wondering if it would be possible to DNR the Pan and Scan to remove the noise and reduce the clumping of the colors. That way you have little detail/noise but should maintain the colors. Concerning the contrast I want to try to grade the entire movie first and then may add some contrast to the overall project to see how it looks and if it comes close looking how a release print looks.
Chewtobacca said:
Spaced Ranger said: And I'm guessing a (working) Avisynth script probably won't do better than the paint program demonstration.
Yes, and whoever wrote the script would have to resize every shot in turn, which would be a mammoth task.
Sounds best left to a person who knows what they are doing with AVIsynth scripts.
Concerning the workprint. I'm glad everyone likes it but I'm not going to use it for this project, basically for all the reasons stated before but mostly since it already is in the Blu-ray package. Recreating it, is redundant. Plus I now have a new source to work with.
I have really grown to like the colors of the Pan and Scan LD (P&S) and there might still a project in there. I do recognize there are a few things I (and others) don't like about the transfer. Luckly, Jonno was nice enough to give me a copy of the Criterion LD (CC). So far, the CC has my favorite color scheme for BR. Basically, it sits half way between the P&S LD and the BR of the International cut (IC). Some parts look more like the PS others the IC. For example, it has the blue tint of the IC, when Decker is being given the run down on the Nexus 6s. It also has that blue in other places that the IC doesn't. Some green too. On the other hand it also has the golden tint that I enjoy so much, like at Tyrell's office. The tinting is a little less intense then the P&S but strangely it occurs in several places the P&S doesn't. The CC also lacks the extreme purple tint of the P&S transfer that looks like an old telecine issue, then natural to the film. I don't see reel change markers so this might be a print from higher up the food chain.
IC BR/CC LD/P&S LD
Spaced Ranger said:
PDB said:
The LD was a rip from the spleen. Given the information and pic associated with the listing it is most likely this:
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/28188/13805/Blade-Runner-(1982)
There are some pics from the LD in the opener. Here are a few more. ...
... I'm using davinnci resolve lite and timing by sight.
Thanks for the extra shots and info!
(I had edited my original post while you were replying -- cross-posting, but just correcting my oversight.)I wondered if you had tried (or thought of trying) HSL separations of aligned Blu-ray (for L) and letterbox laserdisc (for H & S) sources to re-combine. I did see a little bit of a letterbox laserdisc ..
YT: Opening to Blade Runner: The Director's Cut 1993 CAV Laserdisc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYlSlcS-Hco.. but it was mostly the titles and nothing of your choice snapshots. Of course, HSL remixing only works well if both sources are not too different nor have crushed/blown-out video areas (which would require repair first).
I haven't thought of trying that but that's sounds like a good idea, Spaced Ranger. So if I follow you, basically you the take the luma/luminnce from the BR which contains all the detail information and overlay the color information from the laserdisc. Does that sound right? I remember there was a AVIsynth script that did something like that. I haven't had much success using AVIsynth scripts in the past. When I first tried color correction, I used colourlike/colourlikeFBF and could never get the results to what I wanted. Is there another way to do that process? Clearly you are more experience in this area then I am, I still consider myself a novice.
I'm also using speedgrade a lot since I'm creating the cuts/edit file in Premier and it sometimes easier to send it to speedgrade since that feature is built into Premier.
dvdmikesaid:
Why not try a small section?
Well, I always try keep an open mind, so ask and you shall receive:
Workprint/International Cut/IC colored to WP
I did this very quickly so it might not be right on the money
dvdmike said:
Synnöve said:
Y'all need to keep in mind that none of the transfers are really representative of a release print or negative simply due to the drastically different color spaces consumer video and film use, and the evolving methods of mapping film colors to consumer video color spaces. These sorts of factors will drastically effect the look of the resultant transfer.
That was what I was saying!! using the workprint as it is closest to an actual print and in BD's colour space already
No that's 100% wrong. The workprint is not even close to a release print. That is not the way making release prints works. Synnove is talking about digital formats. We are talking about chemical timing of a release print, workprints rarely have any chemical color timing. I quote wikipedia:
A workprint is a rough version of a motion picture, used by the film editor(s) during the editing process. Such copies generally contain original recorded sound that will later be re-dubbed, stock footage as placeholders for missing shots or special effects, and animation tests for in-production animated shots or sequences.
For most of the first century of filmmaking, workprints were done using second-generation prints from the original camera negatives. After the editor and director approved of the final edit of the workprint, the same edits were made to the negative.
If anything the workprint is closer to the negative then a release print. It was a quick rough print made for a preview. Thats why they used 70mm, to perverse as much detail as possible given the quick nature of the print. It was never meant to be seen again. Release prints are timed after the ip as a result of answer print. The are already a few generations removed from the ocn and their colors can be radically different then the negative. Negatives are great for seeing details but release prints are best for what a film should look like. Workprints are in no way the true color and look of a film.
I stay away from the OT for a weekend and there is so much ground to cover...
Nien Nunb said:
I really like these, especially the last one at the bottom. This looks exactly like the timing on the 80's VHS I have, which is most likely from the same transfer as the LD you are using. The VHS has those reel change markers too. That last shot at the bottom though is one of the things I've always noticed that looked radically different in any other transfer I've seen other than the VHS.
It almost looks like a VHS transfer sometimes. The LD has the Embassy logo at the beginning so its probably the exact same master as your VHS. That tape is the way I remember watching Blade Runner with its golden/yellow tones. Much like the VHS there are reel change markers all over the place, so it is definitely from a release print.
Spaced Ranger said:
@ PDB
Would you post some matching Laserdisc shots (BTW, which LD release is it) used to guide your regrade?
Also, what is your procedure for color adjustments?
The LD was a rip from the spleen. Given the information and pic associated with the listing it is most likely this:
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/28188/13805/Blade-Runner-(1982)
Here are a few from the LD. I did this quickly so they are not the same frames.
The one thing I'm not wild about is the LD has a purple-ish cast sometimes at the end of the film (see the window pic). I'm using davinnci resolve lite and timing by sight. Those pics on the first page are done in 10 mins so they are not complete by any stretch.
This also brings up the internal debate that I have been running into a lot lately. The question of accuracy (ie coloring every frame to the same frame on the LD) versus consistency (coloring the scenes so all the shots match within the scene but still looking like the LD). I have been a big fan of accuracy up until now but now I'm leaning towards consistency lately.
dvdmike said:
The is no such thing as a 70mm print, it was a blow up and they all come with their own issues
Of Blade Runner there were only blow ups, no 70mm prints.
Sorry, dvdmike. No disrespect but I have to agree with Jonno, I don't understand what you are saying. A blowup is usually defined as printing up to a higher gauge of film (the opposite of a reduction). If you shot on 16mm a blowup is onto 35mm. If your film is 35mm, like Blade Runner, a blowup is onto 70mm. When people used the term blowup it was usually in reference to special engagement 70mm showings. And Blade Runner had a few 70mm prints:
http://in70mm.com/news/2010/blade_runner/index.htm
So there were more then 11 prints in the US and a couple in England. Notice the site says, " Interestingly, in the book Future Noir: The Making of Blade Runner, the producer of the film incorrectly recalls that no 70mm prints circulated."
dvdmike said:
The workprint would be a better source then the LD for colour surely
I wouldn't use the workprint. First of all why bother, if you have the set you have the workprint's coloring. If I colored to the workprint it would be redundant. Also like Jonno said, its not the proper color timing. Its just a raw print of the work done up until that point and would in no way reflect the final color timing. And the workprint is a 70mm print also done from a raw cut. They preserved that on the BD set since the aspect ratio is 2:20 to 1 instead of anamorphic 35mm's 2.35/2.39/2.40.
captainsolo said:
Regrading will be tough due to researching transfers etc.
From what I've pieced together:
All the Embassy/Pre-Criterion copies on VHS, LD etc. use that same transfer of the early LD. The Criterion uses a similar looking 2.35 print. All of these are very colorful but full of a contrasty look and to be honest it doesn't seem quite accurate to the film's composition. Plus they are very soft, and the Criterion noticeably so. They seem video-ish.
The Director's Cut was of course based off of the 70mm blowup of the Workprint that surfaced in 1990/1991 (supposedly due to Steve Hoffman and other unearthing it in some vaults) at the NuArt and other places AND the 1982 US theatrical release. Because it was a rush job and Scott not being available to supervise...I think it is actually a very good reference to how the film was shot and processed.
The 1997 DVD is terrible and has color that is not accurate-the full CAV LD actually bests it in terms of image and sound. All it requires for completion is the reintegration of the International cut snippets.
I have the DVD and BD sets and have never been fully pleased with the way the archival versions look. They seem a bit dead looking. Has anyone compared them to the limited 2006 DVD reissue of the DC? Or is it thye same?
The Final Cut looked far better in 35mm. The colors seemed more subjective and far less jumping out.
I think the best balance is somewhere between the deep saturation of the 80's era transfers (from release prints) and the colder look of the DC on Laserdisc/archival version DVD/BD.
God, WB really needs to redo these masters. BADLY!
Hey captainsolo, the fact that those copies look very contrasty actually makes me happy as release prints are always have more contrast/dark/ murky because of generation copying and the colors pushed more to compensate. I'm on the hunt for the Criterion because at the time, Criterion mastered all their LDs from release prints. Of some the Criterion LDs I have: King Kong, North By Northwest and Lawrence of Arabia (not sure about ceot3k) all have reel change markers. Since the 83 LD is from a release print, I can compare it to the Criterion and try to get closer to the truth of what BR looked like in 82. Sure they could change the look of video masters back then but its in no way similar to today's color timing. They could do saturation, brightness, tint, sharpness, etc. Basically, all the things you could do on an old CRT. But I doubt Embassy spent anything changing the master of a failed movie and Criterion back then was pretty dedicated to getting as close to release versions as possible. it could on the other hand look nothing like a release print, no one her including me knows.
Its important to note that that kind of color timing, golden/yellow, was very popular in the early 80s. Look at the debates we have had about Raiders and Road Warrior here in this forum. So Blade Runner having that sort of tint is not totally random. Honestly I don't think any of the BDs in the Blade Runner set are true to a '82 print. Certainly not the workprint, DC or FC (the last two I saw in theaters). I hate the coloring on the FC but that Scott's baby so he can do with it what he wants.
Synnöve said:
Y'all need to keep in mind that none of the transfers are really representative of a release print or negative simply due to the drastically different color spaces consumer video and film use, and the evolving methods of mapping film colors to consumer video color spaces. These sorts of factors will drastically effect the look of the resultant transfer.
That's all true, Synnove. You are 100% correct and we can get into a long discussion about how crappy analog composite video is and how even today's video standards don't match 35mm film completely. And colorspaces, bit depth, yada, yada. But sadly by those standards no project here bears any merit. The Thing, Conan, etc were timed from laserdisc and DVDs, formats with inferior colorspaces. I don't mind those color technical issues With those releases. I just sit back and enjoy the films.
All of this is, kind of misses the point or maybe the spirit of the thing. The goal is the detail of the BD with the color of something close to a release print. I have tried to be clear in this and the Alien thread that these are not the be all and say all for these films. While I believed these laserdiscs are closer to their respective release prints, given the evidence at hand, I still think they are far from perfect. I want to get as close as I can to a release print, not the negative, not Ridley Scott's re-timed versions. I want 80s era Blade Runner. I don't have an original 35mm print so these LDs of release print are as close as I can get. I have always said that people need to treat these projects as alternative versions to the transfers at hand. If you don't think they represent a 35mm release print, treat them as the laserdisc version. I post pics so that no one is surprised what this will look like and if you don't like the look of this project, don't download it. It may not be for you. That's not meant to be mean, just the facts.
msycamore said:
PDB said:
Actually the color grading is based on the 1995 laserdisc and not the 1999 DVD, that accounts for the weird hues you are seeing. On first page I presented those two possible regrades. Initially, everyone seemed to like the 1995 LD better for a variety of reasons, like warmer skin tones, more 70s era look, etc.
Yeah, I understand that. I was only referring to those '99 regrades on the first page. They don't match my '99 DVD that well, hence my question. Not trying to be critical to your project in any way, quite the opposite, just being curious of why I see these differences in hues.
Well that grading was a first run, a which looks better. There was a bunch of fine tuning to do but no radical hue shifts to correct that I can see. What example are you having trouble with? It matches pretty close for me, just checked the DVD:
DVD/BD graded to LD (Pic from the first page)
The big thing that needed work was the pic of Lambert's face needs warmer skin tones. That's why Alien is taking so long, grading the colors right 90% is easy, the last 10% is hard.
In the end, it doesn't really matter since its all work that been abandoned.
msycamore said:
There was a lengthy discussion on the the Alien soundtracks here:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Dolby-Digital-41-Surround-Alien-Anthology/topic/13986/
Where msycamore (is he here anymore?) was nice enough to put together the differences (he is referencing Jonno's 2.0 capture):
I'm here, PDM, but not as often as I used to lately... I was referencing my own capture. I only did a quick and dirty capture of the 2.0 pcm track which Jonno beautifully synced. The way I understand it someone later did manage to make bitperfect caps of both the PCM and AC-3 track.
I love your idea of a color graded Blu. About your color grading, your screencaps which should represent the 20th anniversary DVD timing doesn't match that timing that well, I see weird hues all over the place. What's your way of trying to replicate those colors?
Yes, Andrea has a rip and sync of the AC-3 track from the laserdisc and was nice enough to provide me with a copy.
Actually the color grading is based on the 1995 laserdisc and not the 1999 DVD, that accounts for the weird hues you are seeing. On first page I presented those two possible regrades. Initially, everyone seemed to like the 1995 LD better for a variety of reasons, like warmer skin tones, more 70s era look, etc. A little later Jonno posted pics he had from the Alien Movie Novel which featured scans from an original release print. Those scans seemed to more or less match the 95 laserdisc (if not color, in spirit at least). Its a bunch of circumstantial evidence that points to the 1995 LD being closest to an original 79 release print.
The Mother scenes, Ash head, the shuttle craft, any of those weird pics are the exceptions not the rule. A lot of the 1995 LD is similar to other version of Alien. Sometimes its a matter of making the transfer darker, making the skin tones warmer or removing the green tint (see the last pic). I posted those pics since they are exceptions. Compared to the Blu-ray some scene are almost exactly the same, like these first two:
BD/BD graded to the LD
Since this is a regrade I don't post those pics since no one wants to see where the two match up.
After watching several versions of Alien, it seems to me the 1999 DVD is way too bright and seems to have almost no color timing. The Blu-ray seems to have odd color timing that changes at random and for no particular reason. In the end its all a matter of preference and this version may not be for everyone but I do hope many people will like it.
BDgeek said:
Interesting comparisons PDB,
I think all the BD teal shots looks so much better when re-times. But the more neutral shots (the Deckard and Rachel shot, and the seated Deckard shot) look better on the BD.
Funny BDgeek. I had the opposite reaction. I really like the golden color of Tyrell's office, especially the highlights on Deckard and Rachel. I have distinct memories of it, watching the movie when I was younger. I was disappointed when the BDs had removed most traces of a golden hue. Part of the reason I wanted to do a regrade was for those Tyrell scenes. I was happy to find they were golden colored on the laserdisc. I also kind of like the blue but the LD doesn't have that so out it goes. Win some, lose some
StarThoughts said:
PDB, your inbox is full!
Its clear, sorry StarThoughts, just had a lot of people PMing me lately.
Edit: If anyone wants to see what this looks like in motion, here is a segment with different coloring. Just like Alien not all of the movie is as radically different as these scenes are.
Original BD (International Cut) on the Top. Regraded to laserdisc video on the bottom. This is a WIP, so there are bound to be errors and in fact there is one shot I forgot to grade.
BDgeek was nice enough to provided me with a couple of different soundtrack versions. Creating an isolated score is hard enough but after reading this I'm having even more doubts about being able to get something together. I won't know more till I listen and see what I have to work with.
For some strange reason Blade Runner is much, much easier to grade then Alien. So, in sitting around I have test graded a fare amount. Some shots I like better, some worse:
BD/BD regraded to LD
Thanks jerryshadoe. I'm off to download it now.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
If you are in no rush - I imagine it will take a while to finish Alien first - I'll be able to capture the Criterion LD, sooner or later...
Thanks _,,,^..^,,,_. That would be fantastic if you could capture it. I can definitely wait, its no hurry. I just got a little tired of watching Alien over and over again, so I needed a break. You know that better then me. I saw that LD on the spleen and thought I would play around with it a bit. I didn't think people would be that interested. I would prefer the Criterion, that is certainly bound to be better and maybe more accurate.
kaosjm said:
This looks great! What about a 3rd audio track - score only? There are many bootleg scores available and I even have the SACD but am not sure how to rip that because of the DSD format. I'd like to help in any way I can as this is one of my favorite sci-fis!
I would love a third track with music only. That would definitely be a cool feature the BD doesn't have. The Vangelis score is one in a million. Problem is, I'm not good at creating a music only track. I tried it once and it was a mess. So unless someone can do it for me, I think that might be a non-starter, sadly. I might change my mind when I get further into the project and try again but I would prefer someone else's work for a music only track.
BDgeek said:
Hi PDB, I'm very much looking forward to your Alien (1 & 2) projects. The first movie is one of my all time favorites! (top 5 next to Terminator 1 & 2 and Conan The Barbarian : )
But Blade Runner is also movie I'm deeply fond of and I would love it to get the attention as your next project.
If you can get the Criterion LD #69 (CC1169L), it would be just perfect as it probably has the most accurate representation of the original color timming on home video).
When you get to this project. Would you consider doing both the international cut and the director's cut?
Since the BD has both cuts seamless branched (so they share the same color grading) and we already have PCM audio tracks for them too, I guess it would be possible to apply the same script to both, right?
Thanks again for your projects, I'm anxiously waiting for the Alien release.
ps: now that I've seen kaosjm post, I do have the SACD DSD and the rip (original DSD64 2.0 > 1-bit/2.8224 MHz 57:42 minutes or FLAC (converted with foobar2000 to tracks) 24bit/88,2 kHz |6/24))
ps2: it's so great that Andrea has the Criterion LD and is willing to rip it for this project) :)
Thanks for the words BDgeek. All of those are my favorite movies too, hence me trying these projects. I might think about the DC but I think the DC has different color timing then the US/International Cut. I could be very wrong but the US/I cuts were more golden like 80's era movie tended to be and the DC more neutral/dark like 90's era films. I could be wrong. But nothing is set in stone, so plans could change.
bkev said:
To clarify my comments from the other thread: when I said too warm, I was referring to the shot of the billboard -- not the office. That may be directly related to your wonder if it's too bright, though.
Sorry, bkev I read your original post wrong. I did try to re-grade those two scene based off want you and Andre pointed out.
BD/BD regrade to the LD
With the billboard, I originally added yellow, so the steam/rain on the side turned green. I can't tell what color it is suppose to be because it is not there in the Pan and Scan LD. So, this time I tried to keep the blue instead of the green but still have a little gold. It looks more like the original BD. For the office I toned down the green also. Here are some other in progress (experimental) pics:
BD/BD regrade to the LD
Its clear that the BD transfer suffers from unwanted green regrading like a lot of modern transfers. Its not as bad as the Final cut but clearly still there. Also the LD is definitely from a release print, doesn't mean it wasn't altered for video but it is from a release print:
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
I thought it was my old monitor, but indeed it seems that the LD office shot is too green/yellow... I have the Criterion BD LD, but first I should locate it... (^^,)
I'd appreciate your insight Andrea. I'm wondering if the Criterion is more reserved in its colors. I need to get a copy of it, maybe from Ebay.
I started a thread for the Blade Runner Color Regrade here:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Blade-Runner-Color-Regrade/topic/17070/
Back to your regularly scheduled Alien discussion.
Branching off the discussion in the Alien/Aliens Color Regrade thread here:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Alien-Aliens-Color-Regrade/topic/17002/page/5/
While taking a break from grading Alien, I posed a question whether anyone was interested in a color regrade of Blade Runner. Using a 80s era laserdisc someone uploaded to the spleen. I regraded parts of Blade Runner to see the results.
Project Info:
This was originally an experimental regrade to an old pan and scan LD until Jonno provided me with a capture of the vastly superior Criterion Collection laserdisc of the International Cut.So now it is a regrade to that laserdisc.
Video:
2013 Blu-Ray of the International Cut (IC) regraded to the 1989 Criterion Collection (CC) Laserdisc (LD)
Audio:
1. PCM 2.0 (from the Criterion Collection International Cut LD-Narration)
2. Dolby Digital 5.1 (from the Warner Bros International Cut BD-Narration)
3. PCM 2.0 (from the Warner Bros Director’s Cut LD-No Narration mixed with the IC’s Laserdisc PCM 2.0 and parts of musical score to fill the gaps)
Subtitles:
English (From the BD converted to SRT and SDH parts removed)
French (From the BD converted to SRT)
Spanish (From the BD converted to SRT )
Output:
MKV compatible within the spec for a 25GB BD
Pics:
BR/BR regraded to the CC LD
Thanks:
Jonno: for capturing the Criterion Collection LD
Doombot: for advice, help and testing
Buster D: for the various LD soundtracks
StarThoughts: for the music score to fix the ending
Spaced Ranger: for color correction advice
captainsolo: for information about the film and a 35mm showing
MrNiceGuy: for distribution.
StarThoughts said:
I don't see an alternative thread for Blade Runner yet, but I would suggest using the International cut if you're planning on regrading it, as it pretty much encompasses the American theatrical cut, and Scott always intended for that footage to be there. Historically speaking, for many years, that is the cut that most people would also have been introduced to on home video.
I don't know how you'd do the sound for the “happy ending,” though I guess you could track in the love theme from Vangelis Themes album (IIRC, this is the original track with the synthesized saxophone — I could be wrong) as I don't recall there being any foley in that scene.
I agree. I think the International is the way to go, especially for the reasons you point out, StarThoughts. Yeah the dialogue at the end is a problem. I've long since misplaced my CD of Blade Runner's OST, so I can't fill in the music from that. I might just have to keep it the way it is, although a wordless scene to music sounds interesting.
dvdmike said:
The WP (The one true version) is pretty untouched
I was always very happy they included the WP in the set.
bkev said:
I certainly like the shot from your potential regrade of Tyrell's office, but for me this all seems too warm. The grays seem more likely to be a correct hue than the general blue look of the model shots, but again, it's too yellow. I think, if there is a problem with the BR release, then the correct timing likely lies within a balance of the two.
Funny, I had the opposite reaction. I like the warmth in the office scene. But you maybe right about the too yellow. I also wonder if the LD is too bright. That's why I want to get ahold of the Criterion LD. It is almost guaranteed better video and Criterion at the time used release prints to master their LDs. Maybe Blade Runner is from a release print also. If anyone has it, can they check for cig burns/reel change markers?
