Am I the only one who feels Rey Palpatine is far more compelling than “Rey nobody”?
Thank you! With Season 7 nearly here, I plan to redo this edit as a duology to get the entire story (the old ending to Maul’s story was so abrupt!). It all depends when they release Season 7. Hopefully, it won’t be Disney Plus exclusive, and we’ll get a DVD this summer.
Interesting. I do remember hearing some speculation (or maybe it was based on something Filoni or someone else said) that we would see the Jedi purge to some extent. Considering that scene comes right before Order 66, I imagine this will probably end up being true. But to what extent? If I had to guess I’d say we’ll see Captain Rex’s perspective? Don’t really want to show everyone getting murdered on a kids show (plus we’ve seen it in the film anyway), and Rex will show a different side of the event that will lead into Rebels. Well, I guess we’ll have to see Ahsoka’s perspective as well.
I will say, if they’re going right up and into ROTS, that’ll make the fact that they just sort of dropped into the Clone Wars halfway between AOTC and ROTS even weirder.
They kinda had to - Anakin was still an apprentice in AOTC, so it doesn’t make much sense for him to suddenly get a padawan (they wanted to start with Ahsoka to give new audiences a character to latch to).
Also Ep 2 wouldn’t bring us much. ROTS has interesting concepts to explore from the other perspective.
Yeah reminds me of Excalibur.
The Vong would have made FAR better antagonists than the FO, plus they’d have an original conflict to draw upon!
Yes. You buy once, they never get more money. You own subscription, they always get more money.
A lot of people don’t pick up on what’s happening. Not to sound like some conspiracy theorist but Disney Plus has been a success and it’s going down in history. Give it a couple decades and movies theaters will be on the decline, if not at the point of obscurity.
I saw a good video suggesting Finn should have died at the cannon. Hear me out:
–His character arc for the trilogy is done, even if it should have been improved in TROS, all he does is scream “REY”.
–His main antagonist, Phasma, is done.
–It would give the ending of TLJ a more tragic undertone, losing a major likable character.
–It would give Rose a chance to be part of the “big three” in TROS.That was this video right?
I agree conditionally. Ideally Finn’s character has plenty of potential, it was just squandered.
But regardless, the big question I have after watching the video is this:
Why does this person have a hologram head? Are they an alien or a robot that just pretends to be humanoid, or are they a human who lost their head and this is a replacement? Furthermore, why isn’t Finn questioning this after the fact? So many questions.
Yep that’s the video. I usually dislike him for his childishness, but when I saw such a long video and him saying TLJ was “alright” I figured he might have changed (seems he did, at least for this one)
Also, you are correct about the Hologram Head. That single moment was when I knew this movie had ruined my flawless childhood. I bet it symbolizes Rian Johnson’s dislike of the true fans!!!
I saw a good video suggesting Finn should have died at the cannon. Hear me out:
–His character arc for the trilogy is done, even if it should have been improved in TROS, all he does is scream “REY”.
–His main antagonist, Phasma, is done.
–It would give the ending of TLJ a more tragic undertone, losing a major likable character.
–It would give Rose a chance to be part of the “big three” in TROS.
I don’t take issue with TROS’s force healing. It understands the Jedi from the OT far more than the PT. They are warriors, yes, but they fight with the intent of peace. Luke only became a true Jedi on the Death Star: Jabba’s Sail Barge was a dark side action.
Force healing is easy to comprehend. An injured character can be healed without the death of the healer, although it drains a lot of their energy, and can’t be done in the middle of a battleground. For fatal wounds, the healer must sacrifice themself.
In TROS, Leia transfers her life-force into Ben, which allows Rey to heal a fatal wound in Ben without her dying. It is Leia who dies in this scene. But on Exogel, there isn’t anyone to help, so Ben makes the ultimate sacrifice to Rey. It’s very poetic and definitely an act of the light side, eliminating wounds and saving the lives of others (NOT yourself).
If we must prove why this works within the larger context of Star Wars…
–Obi-Wan was a young knight who promised his master to train Anakin. He would not sacrifice himself for his master, nor would Qui-Gon have wanted him to.
–Yoda and Obi-Wan were the sole survivors of Order 66, but also some of the strongest Jedi and the most aware of the situation. It would not do to sacrifice themselves and leave a new Jedi left confused and wondering what’s up, only to be shot down.
–Luke was Anakin’s son, so Anakin would not have allowed him to sacrifice himself. Luke had much more to live for.Force healing still undermines the concept of death and kills any tension in future Star Wars movies.
Not really. Look at my examples. All scenarios where force healing isn’t an option.
Since when are Reylos racist? Apparently I’ve been misinformed because I always assumed they were pro-Disney.
A real shame the SW Fandom has hit this low. Fear leads to anger. Angers leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
I don’t take issue with TROS’s force healing. It understands the Jedi from the OT far more than the PT. They are warriors, yes, but they fight with the intent of peace. Luke only became a true Jedi on the Death Star: Jabba’s Sail Barge was a dark side action.
Force healing is easy to comprehend. An injured character can be healed without the death of the healer, although it drains a lot of their energy, and can’t be done in the middle of a battleground. For fatal wounds, the healer must sacrifice themself.
In TROS, Leia transfers her life-force into Ben, which allows Rey to heal a fatal wound in Ben without her dying. It is Leia who dies in this scene. But on Exogel, there isn’t anyone to help, so Ben makes the ultimate sacrifice to Rey. It’s very poetic and definitely an act of the light side, eliminating wounds and saving the lives of others (NOT yourself).
If we must prove why this works within the larger context of Star Wars…
–Obi-Wan was a young knight who promised his master to train Anakin. He would not sacrifice himself for his master, nor would Qui-Gon have wanted him to.
–Yoda and Obi-Wan were the sole survivors of Order 66, but also some of the strongest Jedi and the most aware of the situation. It would not do to sacrifice themselves and leave a new Jedi left confused and wondering what’s up, only to be shot down.
–Luke was Anakin’s son, so Anakin would not have allowed him to sacrifice himself. Luke had much more to live for.
Film journalists on twitter (and a lot of them) all seem to be collectively hinting that this thing just got canceled.
If this got canceled, I swear they have no idea how to manage this brand. Calls for a Kenobi show have been widespread, and the Mandalorian was just a smash hit!
How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.
When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.
I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.
I was referring to Kylo.
I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.
If you mean derivative, then yes, the ST more or less repeats the OT to the point I have to wonder if it damages the overall themes more, because by including another 30 years worth of evil rising and good winning, it almost seems to imply the conflict will never end.
Almost like that was the point (well, before TROS muddled the waters).
True. TLJ does try at some solid themes. Although, I wish TFA had just gone ahead and started fresh with something original.
How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.
When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.
I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.
I was referring to Kylo.
I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.
If you mean derivative, then yes, the ST more or less repeats the OT to the point I have to wonder if it damages the overall themes more, because by including another 30 years worth of evil rising and good winning, it almost seems to imply the conflict will never end.
But I’m rambling at this point.
Of course they could have made a much more personal story without the need to flesh out the political state of the Galaxy. It’s just complicated when some of the most prominent characters are a “supreme leader”, a general princess and the last Jedi master. Not calling for six hours of Senate meetings here, just a clear idea about the current state of the Galaxy. But I guess that’s just another mystery box.
Exactly. No one is calling out the Mandalorian for not explaining the exact logistics of the Guild, Garrison or New Republic… because they aren’t important to the story. I’d say a movie that picks off right after the old government was toppled should explore what’s next.
It’s a such a small aspect of the film, I don’t really care that it’s confusing. I’ll take the ST. The politics in the PT were not only boring, they often didn’t make sense and they didn’t add much to the story.
I’ve never really understood this complaint. There are only two “political” scenes in the PT, one for TPM and one for AOTC. In TPM, the entire point of the story so far is to get to Coruscant to reveal what the Trade Federation is up to to the Senate, so the Republic can save the day. But we learn here that the Trade Federation has a significant hold over the Senate, which leads to a vote of no confidence which is super important for Palpatine (and the probably the most dynamic event that can happen in politics). Nevertheless, the heroes must handle the problem with the Senate’s help.
Similarly, the only political scene in AOTC is pivotal to the plot. Should the Republic war with the Separatists? This is built up throughout the story and once it happens is very quick and to the point: Jar Jar says let’s get the Chancellor supreme powers, and the other Senators vote yes.
And then what? Palpatine declaring the Republic now an Empire? That barely counts as politics. The PT’s politics aren’t epic by any means, but they also aren’t the evil people tend to blame them as. The real issue with those movies was its characters and weird plot structure.
The weird thing about the new trilogy is that the state of the larger galaxy is just absolutely incomprehensible. While the prequels clearly show the might and fall of the Old Republic, the OT depicts the Rebel Alliance defeating Palpatine’s Empire. The obvious next step would probably be showing the struggles of the New Republic or something along those lines.
Instead we got what seems to be two fringe groups of fanatics and has-beens fighting it out in the Outer Rim while the larger galaxy doesn’t really care about any of that until like the last ten minutes of the story.
This is very true. Imagine watching the Saga for the first time. You finish each movie and are probably like:
TPM: Yay! I wonder what adventures Obi-Wan and Anakin will go on!
AOTC: Oooh! I wonder what this clone war will entail!
ROTS: Woah! I wonder how Luke and Leia will save the galaxy!
ANH: Yay! I wonder what adventures Luke and co will have!
TESB: Woah! I wonder how they will save Han, and if Vader is Luke’s father!
ROTJ: Yay! I wonder what will happen next now that the Empire is defeated.
And sure you’ll have more fun watching TFA then any of the prequel movies, but you will also be a bit confused and disappointed how 180 the direction went. I think everyone was chill with this in 2015 because we were under the impression the mystery box would explain a huge galaxy-changing twist about the stuff between 6 and 7. It really doesn’t.
There’s no reason there has to be peace for a thousand generations. Ben just says the Jedi were the guardians of peace in that time.
Palpatine in AOTC says the Republic has stood for a thousand years. Potentially a discrepancy between that and Ben’s line, but you could explain it. Either way neither of them says there was no war at all for that long.
Ah, nice. So going off that we could say:
The Jedi have stood for a thousand generations, acting as a separate religion, and when the Republic was formed they became their guardians of peace and justice. It makes sense for Ben to group the two together when explaining to a young boy with a limited attention span.
The Republic was founded one thousand years ago, and could have had all the major conflicts Disney wants to fill their story. Personally I’m very excited to explore this period.
The whole concept of “The Republic” lasting even over a thousand years at peace is frankly ridiculous at an intergalactic setting. There are so many people, so many ideologies, so many changes to culture with such scale. I could buy it if the Republic has fought a large-scale conflict every hundred years or so, resetting the public consciousness in favor of the government, but even then “a thousand generations” is all too silly.
I’d agree to see a younger Yoda could backfire, but if keep him one of many other characters it should work. He might never be in danger but those around him will. Yoda has never revealed much about his past, so anyone besides him in this new era can be killed.
Outbound, I absolutely love that! That’s exactly why I posted what I did, in hopes someone could take those thoughts further. I wonder if some other reorderings might work with that too.
For example, you could possibly put the DS2 fight as the very end fight. Kylo and Rey kill Paplatine (Rey dies, Kylo heals her - force healing is a DARK power), Kylo and Rey kill Snoke (Kylo’s true master - he’s coming to the light but still wants to rule), Luke shows Kylo the power of the light on Crait, then Kylo flees to the DS2 wreckage (for what? not sure. power?), only for Rey to fight him, Leia to distract him, Rey to nearly kill him, Rey to heal him (having learned it from him, and deciding to use a little of the dark), but then ultimately to leave him. Then Han’s memory makes him throw his blade into the sea - the end of his tale.
We also have the option of making the Snoke’s flagship hyperspace destruction into something Luke does with the force, for those who don’t like the complications that adds to SW physics.
I’d also edit the scene of Snoke clones in Palpatine’s tanks to Palpatine clones.
Also, a massive advantage of your structure like that is that we get the best character development for the side characters in the final chapter. For Poe, across the films his arc becomes: Heroic > Possibly murky past > Heroic to the point of being a bad leader > Good leader. For Finn, it’s: Flees First Order > attached to Rey > joins rebels loosely > properly commits to rebels > ‘saving what we love’.
This was my initial idea because I felt it weird at first to have the final fight of the trilogy be between Luke and Kylo. You could cut out DS2 in 8 and move it to right after Crait. But I found it too complicated to explain why we are going from Crait to DS2, particularly when you consider who Crait is framed, it is the emotional ending to the saga, even if it doesn’t have the thrills to make for a good trilogy climax.
Also, you’d miss out on Jannah for Finn, because they all take place on the same planet as DS2.
Ooft, here’s an idea for an ending. On the back of Outbound’s flipped movies idea, with Luke only dying near the end of the third movie, how about this:
- Kylo has his memory intervention and throws his lightsaber into the sea. End for him.
- We cut to a truncated version of the Rey/Leia training - this is happening as an epilogue. Leia sends Rey off to train, and we get that training montage cut to match the following (cut from her training with Luke and a couple of other sources) “Who am I? No-one. Someone. Light. Darkness. Life. Death. Warmth. Cold. Peace. Violence… Balance. Energy. I am the force.”
- Cut to credits.
[I’m not trying to imply she’s the living force, with that, so much as accepting that she’s accepting that the force is balance, and flows through her. “I am one with the force, the force is with me”]
NGL I prefer the idea of Rey and Ben finally getting together at very end, adapting the final scene of TROS… the force montage is a cool idea, I just think it should be second to last. Then Rey goes to bury the lightsabers and finds Ben waiting for her.
That whole scene is terrible. It comes out of nowhere, contradicting Finn and Rose’s characters, and the way it’s shot is comical. The first time I saw it I thought I was watching a HISHE episode… as she says saving what we love the Resistance blows up in the background. There’s some amazing scenes in TLJ, but this isn’t one of them.
I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.
But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.
Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.
Um… a story is the overall chain of events. A lot of real stories can be boring. You could make a movie about someone’s day at work and if you pick a normal day the movie would be boring.
Most movies come down to executions. I think you could make an interesting movie about your day at work. The script would be boring, but if you create good tension through editing and hire some good actors, it would make for an engaging movie.
My biggest issue with CT as Episode 9 director is this. He is not the best at executions (whereas JJ very much, love it or hate it TROS is at the very least exciting to watch brainlessly). Jurassic World should be engaging, for instance, but it was more a boring action movie than action/horror like it’s predecessors. And apparently he made a really bad movie after JW, which I haven’t seen. So I don’t really trust him on that part.
RJ said he created Rose because he felt Finn and Poe had the same voice, but imagine the Rose and Finn conversation about war, but Poe took Finn’s place and Finn took Rose’s place. Poe likes being the hero and does whatever he can to win, but considering Finn is a literal child soldier, he knows all about the costs of war.
Rose is not talking to Finn about how bad war is. She’s talking about how war against the First Order is good, justified and necessary, and that Canto Bight is awful for supporting the First Order, not for supporting war.
In that case, why does Rose save Finn from killing himself for no purpose? Wasn’t the point of her speech to inspire him to fight against the First Order?
Yes, I know common sense don’t sacrifice yourself for no reason, but it would be a much clearer telling of the theme if you had the character learn about it and then react accordingly, not learn about it and overdo it to the point the same character who inspired you to do it now tells you a new message… right at the climax?
I was thinking about radical reordering to the trilogy, and toying with the idea of having Palpatine’s return be a ‘sidequest’ of Snoke’s as part of Kylo’s training. Sort of ‘I’ve detected a rival Sith, go deal with them for me’. That way you could keep some of Palpatine without it being an unsatisfying attempt to put a capper on the Skywalker saga, and keep it framed as part of this new, different story. Does anyone have any thoughts about that?
That got me on to thinking about any other kind of radical restructures we might have available to us. And fundamentally, any such option needs to first ask the question: What arcs are sufficient to build a trilogy (or duology or whatever) around? And the problem with the sequel trilogy is, nearly nobody has a satisfying arc. To my mind you have:
REY:
A nobody gets dragged into a destiny, shows force proficiency, becomes Luke Skywalker’s hope for the future of the Jedi, develops a relationship with the conflicted Kylo Ren (who exploits her nothingness to gain her power), grows in power, tracks down and kills a half-reborn Palpatine (who she learns she was related to all along), nearly dies but is saved by Kylo, declares herself Skywalker. It’s our second-strongest arc but Palpatine comes out of nowhere and other than the revelation that she’s related to him, her defeat of him doesn’t contribute to her growth.KYLO REN:
The legacy of Vader wishes to emulate him, gains power under Snoke, is conflicted by his killing of his father, develops a relationship with the suprisingly powerful Rey, kills Snoke to gain more power, is conflicted by his meeting fails to convince Rey to join him for evil, is conflicted by his relationship with Luke Skywalker, finds and submits to Palpatine, then turns to the light, gets nearly killed by Palpatine, then dies to kill an injured Rey.
It’s our strongest arc but Palpatine comes out of nowhere, and isn’t relevant to his character arc.Taking the above two alone, the strongest story between them is that they meet each other, develop this awkward relationship, turn on Snoke (for different reasons), attempt to convince each other of their philosophies, then Kylo turns to the light, and they defeat Palpatine. But again, that Palpatine ending just isn’t satisfying. I feel like the Palpatine and Snoke kills should be punctual steps on their journey together, but which utimately end with them in conflict with one another. I’m trying to think of moments which could be used as the punctual final point of their story. There’s the moment when they fight and Rey appears to kill Kylo (before healing him). But that’s about where I can’t take the thought any further.
This has inspired me. Here is one very radical take… swap TLJ and TROS.
Episode 8: DUEL OF THE FATES (Apparently this was the initial name for 9)
Crawls establishes it has been several months since TLJ, in this the Republic military has fought a desperate campaign but without its core infrastructure been defeated and that Snoke rules the galaxy. Rey trains under a PTSD Luke while Kylo trains under Snoke to become a true Sith Lord.
Act One
The first twenty minutes or so should be of TLJ, to wrap up some plot threads. Luke has to be handled in a subtle manner. I don’t want to destroy TLJ’s themes, but we can’t introduce all of them unresolved here, so instead, I would make his sadness more fear of Rey turning evil. It could start with the scenes of Luke training Rey (having agreed to train off-camera) and then later having his “who are you?” speech that plants seeds of doubt in his mind.
Meanwhile, Kylo Ren should train under Snoke. I mentioned a couple of days earlier this fanfilm (https://youtu.be/owrmLeX20CY?t=95) I think it would be a huge help here for a symbolic training scene within his mind. Snoke should be completely redubbed to maximize the little screentime we have.
The big drive for the plot will be Rey and Kylo’s force skype. This gets the two characters emotionally attached: which is the crux for the trilogy. I think it would be really effective to plant Luke’s seeds of doubt towards Rey’s willingness to the darkness through her repeated failures, and THEN when he sees those two touching hands gets angry, and Rey leaves to rejoin the fight. Afterward, Luke gets his failure speech and realizes his mistakes.
Meanwhile, Snoke is pleased to see Kylo is near complete with his training, the only remaining mission is to go to Exogel, the ancient Sith Homeworld, but does not tell him what is there.
Act Two
This is where TROS begins. We won’t see the Resistance up until now to feel isolated just like Rey was on Ach-To, but now the rest of the characters get to shine. Getting our big three together in the second installment will let them build off each other, so we care more about the challenges they go through in 9 (because most of these characters don’t really have arcs in TROS).
So Kylo goes to Exogel and learns Palpatine is just vibing. No “Snoke is a clone” speech: the two Sith Masters won’t reveal their relations until the third act. Kylo wants to kill Palpatine there, but he offers him a secret fleet of Imperial Era Star Destroyers (let’s remove the superweapons for simplicity). All he must do is bring Rey.
Rey and company go to Desert Planet, then to Ice Planet, (where we learn about Poe) and then the Star Destroyer break-in. No Rey Palpatine. Next, the Death Star II, and when Rey finally understands the dangers of the dark side runs off back to Luke. The TROS scenes on Ach-To could be adjusted by cutting in footage of alive Luke from TLJ, but with the same general audio about confronting your fear (unlike himself).
Act Three
Palpatine plots his “Final Order” when Rey arrives, alone. The Resistance fleet arrives to take down the “Final Order” in a great battle, but there is no triumphant victory: they get wrecked and their fleet destroyed. When all seems lost, Rey reveals she’s brought help: Kylo, his lightsaber recolored red. The two work together to kill Palpatine (to duel of the fates), and kiss at the end.
Rey returns to Ach-To to complete her training. Meanwhile, Kylo returns to the (redubbed) Snoke. Snoke explains his pleased he could defeat his Palpatine clone, which he engineered purely as a right to passage. (This should hopefully connect the ST and avoid the “villain of the week” issue).
Episode 9: THE LAST SKYWALKER
In the past year, Rey and Kylo continue to speak, trying to turn the other to their respective branches of the force, but neither has succeeded. Meanwhile, the Resistance is down to one starship, and it would appear hope is lost in the galaxy.
Act One
The Last Jedi. Poe blows up the dreadnought and is demoted. Finn runs into Rose and they have their adventures (hopefully trimmed). Rey will have a few scenes, but less so than in TLJ because a good amount was already shown. Her parents will finally be explored here, so maybe the cave.
Act Two
Rey and Kylo have a final force call where they talk about who will turn. Then she turns herself into the Supremacy. The two kill Snoke (which would be a big twist considering he’s the main bad guy of the trilogy to this point) but still cannot agree with each other.
We also learn Rey is a nobody, and this is later followed up with the Broom Boy near the end movie, so that theme stays intact. Another possible theme saved is Finn’s arc. He and Phasma will now be rivals for an entire trilogy, so their final fight will be more impactful. The deleted scene of him getting stormtroopers on his side might also complete his arc of (1. Leaving the FO; 2. Meeting other Deserters; 3. Inspiring others to desert).
Act Three
Crait happens (keep in mind regular TLJ has been running through and we are now around the 2 hr mark). Luke makes his big reveal after a trilogy of buildup, buying the Resistance time and inspiring hope throughout the galaxy, while Rey saves her actual friends whom she has relationships with from TROS.
The final scenes will be Ben standing back at the Death Star II from the last movie, meeting Han, and rejecting the dark side. Then, the last scene of TROS, but with Ben added into the shot, suggesting the two are finally together on the light side.
I don’t see why not.
Which could be a hyperbolic statement.
But nah, take everything everyone says in these silly movies 110% literally. Then ask why Palpatine funnelled money into the Death Stars instead of just tearing planets apart with the Force.
Palpatine never truly understood the force. He thought of it as a means to power, like how we harness the natural laws of gravity to increase space-flight times: whereas the Jedi respect it, and understand its full potential.
