OutboundFlight

This sounds really cool! I’ve commented on a “Star Wars Epilogue” here before, so I’d be happy to help out in any way possible.

IMO - the best way to preserve the Vader twist is to use The Clone Wars. I know this isn’t ideal - it uses animation! But if you adapted Season 7, we could still tell the story of Anakin being a hero, just without the turn. If you have Anakin turn in his first outing, I don’t think people will like him, and all it will do is give hints that Luke’s father isn’t as good as he seems. Whereas TCW reinforces the twist well. You’d feel sad not just for Luke’s father but for Anakin Skywalker, Clone Wars hero.

Plus it all links up perfectly to Order 66.

darkshadowspike said:

Is legally possible to crowdfund some kind of animated version of Duel of Fates, at this point?

A radio drama sounds most feasible.

Wanderer_ said:

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption?
He didn’t, we tolerated it because Vader was well written and it was easier for us to feel that his love for his son was enough to make him turn back.

At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict.

Mm, this is an odd one. Vader had many more layers than Kylo. Vader was always in conflict, he was a slave to the dark side. Kylo chose to be the monster he became and I honestly don’t think the movies gave us reasons for him to have let darkness grown inside of him.

The difference is Vader got three extra films to explore his fall, where Kylo starts off bad.

In the moment I interpreted the “Palpatine’s son” thing to be another Chosen One created by the Emperor via midichlorians. A second Vader, who rejects the force and goes to hiding. Therefore Rey is technically Palpatine’s “granddaughter”, Vader Palpatine’s “son”, and Luke Palpatine’s “grandson” (though he never knows this and therefore it isn’t used as leverage in the OT).

I think the ideas of TLJ are the best in the trilogy, but the execution is awful. Rewatching it can be cringe inducing. Much prefer TFA and TROS in practice (even if not in concept).

I don’t know. I think it’d be fairly easy to disguise yourself around the galaxy. Wear Mandalorian or Booush armor. In Kylo’s case, grow a beard and cut your hair. In Vader’s, no one knew what he looked like under the helmet. This would be helped with Luke/Rey claiming they are dead.

The problem with immediate death is it isn’t very interesting. Vader and Kylo never confront what they have done. Love should be used as the tipping point back over, but once on the light, it would have been nice to feel some remorse for their actions.

RogueLeader said:

That is an interesting perspective. I think the importance of Vader’s redemption rests on the father/son dynamic, and I don’t know if a political motivation would have resonated with people on the same level as what we got.

A part of me wishes Vader hadn’t died in ROTJ, and an alternate ST explored a redeemed Anakin and Luke’s dynamic as he earns true redemption.

Kylo was our second chance of this, oh well.

I think Kylo ultimately just turning good and dying was unfortunate and sent the whole ST down the drain of redundancy (I look at the movies on their own and I like TROS, but within the larger context it’s a disaster). You can’t just repeat things again and again or people will ask what was the point. We already know someone evil like Vader can be redeemed.

I think there are a lot of ways this could have gone down better. TLJ leaves the door open to go dark (DOTF) or light (TROS). The issue is neither DOTF or TROS fully commit to the path.

NFBisms said:

NeverarGreat said:

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.

The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thinking about it that way muddles a message, but it’s less about the mathematical yield of heroism than it is the intentions behind your actions. Poe went after the Dreadnought to deal his enemies a blow, and Finn after the cannon to prove he cared, to “not let them win.”

I actually disagree that the message is about whether sacrifice is useless or useful or what have you. It’s about why you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, and with. Regardless of if Finn would’ve done anything, his possible death is supposed to be a bummer. He would have died alone when everyone else already decided they’d find another way or die together. Work towards a future, not an ends.

Yes it’s a bummer, but so was Holdo’s death, and that was needed to save the Resistance. What was Rose even thinking when she stopped Finn? They would crash, and provided they survive, run back to the base? And then what? They’d all die. There was no escape.

It’s a minor misstep on RJ’s part that I don’t fault him for: he wrote the scene knowing Luke would return so, of course, Rose will save Finn. I guess no one revised the script? Because if you look at it from the Resistance’s perspective Rose nearly doomed the Resistance.

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

13las said:

I’ve been thinking for weeks that a great final scene would be a redeemed Ben Solo exiling himself on Ach-to. His Tie Fighter burns in the background as he stares out over the sea, then he turns back to see Luke’s ghost, who raises the X-Wing from the water as a token of forgiveness. Iris out on Luke and Ben finally making amends (which was a weird omission for me in the official version). You’d have to cut these beats from the earlier scene with Rey on the island (but I would do that anyway to remove the Palpatine reveal) and Adam Driver would be rotoscoped from the beginning of the Han memory scene.

I think that contradicts the message of TLJ, where you can’t run away from your problems. Instead of exile, a redeemed Ben should travel the galaxy on his own, fighting injustice he comes across and slowly redeeming himself to return to the Jedi and Rey.

I assume you didn’t read the whole thing. He was planning to have the scene end with ghost Luke raising his X-Wing, giving Ben a chance to leave. I personally like the idea, although it seems difficult to rotoscope Ben into those scenes, and cut around Luke’s X-Wing on Exegol.

I did read it through but I didn’t pick up the idea of Luke doing so to let Ben leave. Saw it as a way to make amends. I like this now.

13las said:

I’ve been thinking for weeks that a great final scene would be a redeemed Ben Solo exiling himself on Ach-to. His Tie Fighter burns in the background as he stares out over the sea, then he turns back to see Luke’s ghost, who raises the X-Wing from the water as a token of forgiveness. Iris out on Luke and Ben finally making amends (which was a weird omission for me in the official version). You’d have to cut these beats from the earlier scene with Rey on the island (but I would do that anyway to remove the Palpatine reveal) and Adam Driver would be rotoscoped from the beginning of the Han memory scene.

[Opinion Changed]

Broom Kid said:

OutboundFlight said:

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

I think the majority of normal people don’t have a side at all, and aren’t really engaged in this conversation, because they honestly don’t think about it to that extent once they’re done watching it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either. They watch the thing, they like parts of it, dislike others, and either they’re happy with their experience or they’re not. The majority of normal people just move onto the next thing at that point. They never join a side.

I understand the inclination to minimize the more unsavory aspects of online film discussion but in my experience, continually characterizing the sort of fighting, bad-faith arguing, and proxy/stand-in projection that occurs as being somehow anomalous or not representative is… inaccurate.

The “outspoken idiots” aren’t really a small group. Maybe they’re not the majority, but the margin is pretty slim, and more often than not they’re steering the ship.

I disagree. Most people see a movie and then either had a good time or a bad time. Yes, they’ll probably stop thinking about it once they get to their cars unless they really liked it, but they still had an opinion. You don’t have to argue online to have an opinion about something. Most won’t bring it up unless it gets brought up, then they might say their small opinion and move on without thinking about it again. That’s “a side”, even if not a passionate opinion.

It’s just the people who get really angry over trivial things such as this are more likely to rage about it online (keep in mind, I’m not addressing that towards anyone here, but the folks involved in those clickbait YT or saltier than crait).

snooker said:

I remember reading somewhere that there were rumors in the late eighties that Mark would play Anakin in the prequel trilogy, so I think Deep faking Mark Hamill’s face onto Hayden Christensen’s could be really neat.

Neat? Yes.

Good? I’ll let Back to the Future 2 and 3 decide.

RogueLeader said:

Ironically Hello Greedo posted a video about this very topic.

I usually like HelloGreedo, but think that video is VERY biased towards pro TLJ and anti TROS. He seems to be under the impression TLJ is an objectively better movie than TROS, which I disagree with. But that’s not the point.

Hate isn’t clouding my judgement; I genuinely see TLJ as a poorly constructed movie (though admirable for its risks), and TROS as an engaging movie, even if a bit silly.

We need to recognize both sides have a small group of outspoken idiots and a majority of normal people who just have different tastes.

Not yet.

This sounds good! I had a “7 in 1” edit a while back called “Vader”, using parts of R1 to the other six to tell a stout about Vader’s rise and fall.

What I did was intercut from PT to OT every 10 minutes or so, inspired by Lost. Tbh I’m not sure this was the best strategy because it created two constant plot lines to invest in… by I could easily jump from say, 4 to 5 with no worries.

Most of my edit was around Vader - Luke’s first appearance is when he watches Ben did, the first time Vader sees him. Most of the movie was the PT, with splices of the OT. Yours seems to be the inverse!

I handled Han with death. Reason being I replaced the Battle of Endor with the Battle of Yavin (there’s only one DS) and let Red Leader destroy the station while Luke was inside redeeming Vader. Final scene was his funeral, not the celebration.

Your edit might also benefit from this. Remove Endor and Han isn’t needed, which is really sad but would give the war some casualties. Then have the end at Yavin.

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

The way I see it, the Mandalorian is a mature story. Not insanely original, but neither is Empire. The characters in the Mandalorian all have reasonable motivations… Cara is good but still cares about surviving, the Guild Leader (blanking on name) is only interested in the money. The bandits in Chapter Six act that way because yes, there are people who act like that and they exist in the Star Wars universe. We see them in the Cantina in ANH. If you were expecting them to be sympathetic, that falls down on one’s personal expectations.

But moving forward, I’d say the Mandalorian is more morally complicated than Empire. Because Empire isn’t as nuanced as you claim. The heroes start good and end good. The villains are bad and end bad, with Vader the sole exception. But you can’t pull off a twist like that multiple times, and still for the purposes of the movie Vader was bad from start to finish. It’s not like he suddenly reveals he an undercover agent which makes us question the conflict.

The Mandalorian actually starts bad and has a redemption story right there. Is it wildly new? No. But it’s far more mature a story than Empire’s “good guys run from bad guys, and learn that fighting isn’t always a good idea”.

I get the feeling that you don’t really like Empire. I don’t think Empire is as dumb and simplistic as you claim, but I agree that Mando is a very nuanced show.

It’s not that I think Empire is bad. It’s that I feel a lot of people put it on this pedestal but when we break it down it’s really not that amazing. It is trying to be a blockbuster and it succeeds flawlessly. For its time, a blockbuster with the heroes losing was unheard of. For that plus great effects, dialogue, and fun yet smart storytelling, it gets a 10/10.

But I see 10/10’s more like what is it trying to do and how well it succeeds in that. So I would consider 1917, my favorite movie of the past year, “better” than Empire… but it’s wrong to compare them because they are trying such different things. Empire is trying to get you to have fun, plain and simple, and that’s fine. It succeeds wonderfully. It is just something I would not call “nuanced” like so many are nowadays. It isn’t the greatest movie of all time.

That all being said… is it still a blast? Yes! For its franchise and time period is it subversive? Yes! Would I watch this movie if it were playing on a random channel? Yes!

The way I see it, the Mandalorian is a mature story. Not insanely original, but neither is Empire. The characters in the Mandalorian all have reasonable motivations… Cara is good but still cares about surviving, the Guild Leader (blanking on name) is only interested in the money. The bandits in Chapter Six act that way because yes, there are people who act like that and they exist in the Star Wars universe. We see them in the Cantina in ANH. If you were expecting them to be sympathetic, that falls down on one’s personal expectations.

But moving forward, I’d say the Mandalorian is more morally complicated than Empire. Because Empire isn’t as nuanced as you claim. The heroes start good and end good. The villains are bad and end bad, with Vader the sole exception. But you can’t pull off a twist like that multiple times, and still for the purposes of the movie Vader was bad from start to finish. It’s not like he suddenly reveals he an undercover agent which makes us question the conflict.

The Mandalorian actually starts bad and has a redemption story right there. Is it wildly new? No. But it’s far more mature a story than Empire’s “good guys run from bad guys, and learn that fighting isn’t always a good idea”.

Concerning the box office, I recall most of us expecting higher than TLJ but lower than TFA.

My reasoning for liking this movie (and ranking it third in the saga) is simple. It is fun; it is original. TFA is a bit too derivative for my tastes but still a great fun movie, so it gets the fourth place. TLJ is not fun. Yes, TLJ introduces complex themes and I respect RJ as an artist, but the various subplots make it too cringe-worthy for me to enjoy. Keep in mind there is a large gap between the smart/original/fun ANH, TESB, and Mandalorian vs the dumb/original/fun TROS.

You could imply they are waiting there until getting picked up.

I like that idea because it suggests everyone on Canto Bight only cares about money. The guy isn’t a FO supporter, he just wants money.

What if Rey’s father is a clone?

Considering this will start before, run parallel, and possibly end after ROTS, I wonder if this, alongside 2D CW’s ending, could be fanedited into a “4 hr cut” of Episode 3. The changes in animation wouldn’t be ideal, but you could get a massive and epic story taking place all at the same time.

1. Starts with Anakin fighting Trench or something to introduce the characters.
2. Ahsoka on Coruscant, shows the dislike for the Jedi by commoners and gets her to Mandalore.
3. Siege on Mandalore
4. Grevious surprise attack on Coruscant; Anakin and Obi-Wan sent to stop him.
5. Revenge of the Sith with Deleted Scenes running parallel to Ahsoka and Rex fighting Maul.
6. Order 66, however it goes down in TCW.

It’s important to remember that Rey is part of the prophecy.

Darkness rises, and light to meet it.

This implies a nobody had to rise to counter Kylo, which is frankly ridiculous but if we are working the lenses of TLJ, Rey is both a “nobody” and a “chosen one”.

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

In this case it does. Rey doesn’t want her immense powers and in TROS appears at odds with his heritage.

And for people who say “character from nowhere is a new and bold idea”…

We’ve seen a hero from nowhere in the PT.

We’ve seen a hero from Jedi heritage in the OT.

Now we’ve seen a hero from Sith heritage in the ST.

R2’s death would have made me cry.