OutboundFlight

I love the idea of Autumnal Takodana!

Jakku sounds a lot harder to pull off. I’d like it if it were entirely a junk planet, like the one from Force Unleashed.

Starkiller feels different enough from Hoth imo. It has pine trees where Hoth is all tundra. As for D’Quar it’s barely in the movie and could look like a solid “plains” planet if without the trees.

I think the difference between Star Wars and Alien is all in the tone.

Alien is established, from the outset, as a dark film. It’s horror! The characters make bad choices and we fear with them. Darker films like this often critique social issues as it fits the tone. So Alien’s critique on capitalism works.

Star Wars, on the other hand, is not a dark film. It’s fun escapism. This is why so many call Canto Bight “not my Star Wars” because they want an timeless story separate from the real world.

That is not to demean either approach. Critiques on our society are often well called for while timeless tales are a lot of fun to watch.

The interesting thing about the Last Jedi is it tries to renounce it’s escapist nature. I don’t really think doing this on the 8th episode of a 9 part saga is a good idea, but Rian certainly tried to make TLJ into a “dark film”- Canto Bight and Luke are some examples. You know, I’d be willing to see how a Dark TLJ turned out.

Unfortunately Rian opened the film with a yo mamma joke, instantly eliminating any chance of a darker tone. What we have now is a confused tonal mess.

IsanRido said:

I don’t like the ST myself, but the Mary Sue argument is very silly and indicative of one’s attitude towards women. “We don’t hate women, we hate poorly written characters” doesn’t apply when a person defends the prequel trilogy over these films.

What about someone who doesn’t prefer to PT over these films? I agree the characters in the Prequels are bland and make strange decisions for the sake of the plot. However, I would also argue that Rey is overpowered, like how Anakin the 9 year old destroyed the trade federation ship at the end despite professionals failing to do. Whether or not she is female is irrelevant.

phildoom said:

hello.

first post here!

Hello there!

Anakin Starkiller said:

I personally can’t stand the idea of Rogue One being Episode III.

The characters just don’t match up. Anakin has what is effectively a glorified cameo, Padme is dead, and Obi-Wan is entirely absent. It’d be the equivalent for ROTJ getting rid of Han, restricting Luke to a cameo, and having Leia be on the other side of the galaxy absent.

However, RO could work as a trilogy of anthologies leading up to A New Hope. The first would be a three in one PT which explains Anakin’s backstory. The second would be Solo, explaining Han’s backstory. And the last would explain the plot of Episode IV. In that sense it could work- but not as a proper episode to the Skywalker Saga.

It’s not like Tatooine is the only sand planet. Otherwise it would be at least well known. Instead it is treated as nowhere.

DominicCobb said:

“The Force Awakens” has an energy to it that perfectly matches the tone of the film. Might be in contention for my favorite subtitle. “Shadow of the Empire” sounds like a boring EU novel (in other words, does not match the spirit of the film, even if it does relate well to the content).

I think in general, throwing “of the” gives the title a passive sound. For Star Wars you want the title to be exciting getting you invested in the story right from the start.

For example:
Attack of the Clones VS The Clones Attack
There is something about the latter that sounds more exciting. It’s not the best wording but it feels much more emotional than the boring former. Although I suppose AOTC did it’s job as a title- it was indeed a boring movie!

The Force Awakens VS Awakening of the Force
The latter makes me think of a slow film dedicated towards exploring the force, while TFA feels like a modern blockbuster. In which case TFA did a good job choosing titles.

Return of the Jedi VS The Jedi Return
Here is a special case where I prefer the passive variation. The latter is a too much over the top. ROTJ is very elegant, matching the epic nature of Luke’s journey in this film.

By that logic, is Lord of the Rings pseudo-Science Fiction? Isengard is shown to master genetic manipulation while the wizards seems to use some sort of energy manipulation.

screams in the void said:

^ yes ! she was a great character in Clone Wars . I need to get around to reading the Dark Disciple novel to see how her story ended . I have only read a summary of it .

It was a great book, I recommend it.

Assaj Ventress is a really great character. She starts off bland, but later in TCW they go into her backstory and it’s quite tragic. From there she evolves from Dooku’s pawn to a dark lord in her own right, then to just someone trying to survive, and finally to a Republic hero.

juliatom543 said:

I like pink.

Good for you.

That might cause more problems in the long run (where’s the weapon in ROTS?)

RogueLeader said:

Well since this war has literally only lasted like a day or two in universe, I really don’t mind that they haven’t already named it. It’ll probably get an official name after Episode IX.

Not specifically related to Anakin’s comment, but it feels like can’t we have any mystery anymore but instead it’s just a sign of underdevelopment when the people at Lucasfilm don’t want to give people everything at once. It’s like things aren’t moving fast enough for people. If we don’t have all the information and backstory immediately, then it must be a weak story filled with plot holes and a sign that they have no plan.

The First Order’s seemingly infinite resources is a strange topic. I could see the Resistance stumbling upon a Star Forge or something to explain why they don’t bat an eye to the destruction of a literal planet sized system destroyer, a mini Death Star dreadnought, and their capital ship the size of the Netherlands. That would explain a lot. But this is never setup as a mystery, and right now it comes across more as writing incompetence.

The Republic is another faction I wish we had seen more of. The Resistance could meet up with the remnants who explain what it was like, and how there were First Order sympathizers. This is kinda setup with the outer rim allies, but it’s just the outer rim not the core.

So while I’d love to see these in 9, I am doubtful of them considering there hasn’t been any setup so far. Although if J.J. adopts the subversion technique… maybe no setup is a positive?

I’m still confused at what’s exactly happening in the First Order War.

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

The Last Jedi
This title is memorable, but like ROTJ I don’t think it represents the film. Luke is only one part, not the driving focus (if say the Resistance were praying for Luke’s help, it might have worked).

They weren’t? News to me.

Holdo had a plan. Evacuate the transports down to Crait. The entire Resistance plot line was riding on that. Luke, the last Jedi which the film is supposedly about, only shows up to effect the story at the very end.

For a short while, they do pray for help. But not specifically Luke, and when he arrives they are just happy he can be with them “in the end”. The last Jedi is not the focus on the resistance plot line.

There’s effectively four stories happening at once during the Last Jedi (Luke, Poe, Finn, Kylo) and the title only refers to one, with the rest only partially interfering at the end.

But at the very end, Luke says he will not be the Last Jedi. This is really annoying to me. And I get it. Subversion of expectations! But a title is more or less a promise that something will happen.

That’s an oddly stringent way of looking at it. The title is about the idea of Luke being the last Jedi, and whether he will fulfill that title or not. Not to mention, he’s referred to by that title twice in TFA, and it’s not an inaccurate descriptor of him in TLJ itself - looking at it another way, he’s “the last Jedi” left, or worded differently “the last” of the “Jedi.” So really the title is a question (not a promise), saying “he’s the last Jedi now, will he be the last Jedi forever?”

Otherwise I agree with your rundown (except for maybe TPM).

That is an interesting way to look at it. This might meander into opinions towards the film, but I personally think if this was the case they should of spent more time developing Luke and his successor (Rey). Without much of a reason for Rey to be a Jedi, it falls a bit flat for me. If the movie was about “will the Jedi end here?”, it should of spent more time exploring what if means to be a Jedi. Basically more of the second lesson.

For me, I kept wondering in the theater when Luke was going to show up. It frames the resistance in peril, which sets up the arrival of the “last Jedi”. So perhaps if the focus of the story was somewhere else I would interpret the title otherwise.

Star Wars fans never run of ways to critique the films!

The Phantom Menace
I actually like this title. It provides a bit of intrigue towards who this phantom threat is… the only problem is the film doesn’t deliver. If it had been more plotting and full of deception, it would have been a great title. Rank: 8/10.

Attack of the Clones
I really don’t like this title. For one, I’m not a big fan of “of the” titles. I’ve seen it pop up in fanedit titles and it feels lazy to me. Creates a very lead back, past feel. “The Clones Attack”, while not sounding as cool, works better as an exciting title. Rank: 2/10

Revenge of the Sith
Like AOTC, I’m not a huge fan… but it juxtapositions well against ROTJ so I’ll let it slide. It does feel a bit lazy however. And a revenge is never really established in the first place. Rank: 5/10

A New Hope
This really isn’t a good title. I know they needed a proper name once the PT was established, but this doesn’t do a great film justice. When you watch Episode 4, do you really it is best summarized as “a new hope”? I’m not sure what alternatives there could be, but this is certainly not it. Rank: 4/10

The Empire Strikes Back
Hollywood has been trying for 38 years to come up with a title this great, and it continues to fail today. Rank: 10/10

Return of the Jedi
I don’t have that much a problem with “of the” here, as the “Jedi Returns” sounds underwhelming for such an epic conclusion. And while the title certainly works, I don’t know if it fits the film just right. First, it is centered around purely the Jedi not the Rebellion. And worst of all, it spoils the ending. I think something like “The Last Stand” would have worked better here. Rank: 6/10.

The Force Awakens
When I first heard this title, I smiled. It was just great. My one dilemma is the impact within the film- is it only referring to Rey’s awakening? I think spending a bit more time there would be preferred, but that’s not something I can really mark off from the title. Rank: 9/10.

The Last Jedi
This title is memorable, but like ROTJ I don’t think it represents the film. Luke is only one part, not the driving focus (if say the Resistance were praying for Luke’s help, it might have worked). But at the very end, Luke says he will not be the Last Jedi. This is really annoying to me. And I get it. Subversion of expectations! But a title is more or less a promise that something will happen. AOTC didn’t end with Yoda announcing “the Jedi will have no need for an attack of clones”. It followed through. TLJ does not do that, so while it may sound cool it does not accurately do it’s job. And it uses a noun already taken. Rank: 3/10.

Oh, and Rogue One gets 1/10 and Solo 0/10. Both very boring titles, with RO coming out on top simply because it happens to have a cooler name.

I have an idea to use the PT footage to create an anthology film, starring Obi-Wan and Anakin during the Clone Wars. No fall of the republic, no turn to darkness, just the “good ol days” Obi-Wan talks of. TCW accomplishes this but I wonder if is possible in live action. A lot of restructuring would be required:

1. Start off with Obi-Wan investigating Geonosis, with a crawl explaining everything up that point. Everything before that could be used but is frankly boring; the asteroid dogfight will catch viewer’s attention from the start.

2. Keep the Battle of Geonosis grounded to Obi-Wan / Anakin / Padme; although the fight scenes are cool they take away from the pacing of the primary story- capture Dooku before he starts a galaxy-wide war.

3. But of course they fail. The loss creates personal stakes. Yoda only uses the force. Dooku’s escape leads to a clone wars montage, which I already created and posted here a while back: https://vimeo.com/294955682 (excuse the distortion). With this we smoothly transition to ROTS without a text time jump, making it feel natural.

4. Here’s where things get complicated. Obi-Wan is sent to General Grievous before the death of Count Dooku in hopes of finding Dooku’s location. Meanwhile, Anakin begins to doubt the council and learns his wife is pregnant. But he shows no obvious dark side signals (with the raider and dooku murders having not happened).

5. After Grevious’s defeat is the trickiest part. We establish the Separatists have hired change-lings using audio from ATOC and TCW’s Holocron Heist. Then, it is implied that four changelings have infiltrated the Republic and taken the forms of Mace Windu and three other Jedi. The “treason” scene is repurposed as Separtists kidnapping an innocent Palpatine. Of course, Palps doesn’t whip out a saber as that would give away the big secret.

6. Anakin rushes to save Palpatine but is too late, leading to the Battle over Coruscant. Anakin apologizes to Obi-Wan about not appreciating his training, allowing them to have character arcs going into the third act. Then the battle plays out, only with General Grevious. This time Anakin and Obi-Wan work together to take down Dooku, concluding the anthology.

Tl;dr: A simple, fun edit for the Prequels that could played before ANH without any spoilers.

I am intrigued by this edit!

rodneyfaile said:

OutboundFlight said:
Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

Nothing is ever permanent, especially across an entire galaxy. Just because there is a new conflict doesn’t mean the fighting for a previous victory is for nothing.

That might make sense from a realism point of view, but it doesn’t work from a film-making perspective. The Original Trilogy has become irrelevant.

Will the conclusion to this trilogy be a similar defeat over the Empire? If so, then it stands to reason a new force will rise up in 30 years and overthrow that. The Saga has to end with Episode 9, but if they don’t give us a proper reason to believe this is it, it’ll fall flat on its face.

A “unification” between dark and light sounds equally disturbing. It isn’t like there are two extreme factions each bad in their own way. One is good and the other is bad. We see the First Order commit mass genocide on multiple occasions. We see the Resistance save the day on multiple occasions. Even if Kylo decides to merge with the Resistance, it will appear as if the First Order won, because the Resistance is already perfect and all they can do now is corrupt it.

Now that I’m thinkin about this, I don’t know if a solid conclusion to Episode 9 is even possible with the hole RJ dug us into.

rodneyfaile said:

There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

I can’t speak for others, but I have a bit of a problem with this thinking.

For me it’s more about how they go back to pre-ANH with the Sequels, almost resetting the timeline. It’s as if after World War I established new order in Europe, the heir to the Kaiser was suddenly reinstated by a small terrorist organization and then proceeded to redo the World War almost exactly the same.

Of course, that’s not what happened. The Second World War was a direct result from the conclusion of the First World War, with the Germans angry over their defeat and turning to a horrible ideology. If you were to learn about the Franco-Prussian War and then jump to WW2, it wouldn’t make any sense.

Compare that with Star Wars. Imagine watching ROTS and then jumping to TFA. It… isn’t that hard. There’s a Republic mentioned but only shown in a destruction montage. Beyond that it could be reasoned the Empire has stood for 50 years. Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

I’d rather the Sequels have built upon what the Originals laid out. It can have higher stakes, but the Victory over Endor should of had a major impact on the galaxy the same way the Empire took over at the end of ROTS. One possibility that comes to mind is the Vong War from EU… it felt even more important than the Battle of Endor, but without Endor there wouldn’t have been a Republic in the first place. The OT feels important, as it should.

The First Order does not feel like a terrorist organization. They feel like the Empire, and they are by TLJ. Show us the Republic. Play up terrorism, because it’s more impactful than ever. Show them bombing senate buildings, put the galaxy on edge. That would make the saga feel much different. At the end of TLJ, they could fire on Starkiller and become a new Empire. But then we’d at least see the Republic in action holding off this radicals. By removing most of what the Rebel Alliance established, they made the OT’s impact on the saga redundant.

You can argue that Rey had better intuition or less skills with people which made her somehow better at the force, but it doesn’t matter. The real problem here is I am going into Epiosde 9 rooting for Kylo Ren, because he’s the underdog. After two face offs Rey has nearly killed Kylo both times.

Answering that question will make or break 9 for me. Jedi ended so happily, and yet it wasn’t the end of the saga. They need to find a way to properly end this never ending star war.

Aach-To was the island.

THATS why Luke wants to die! He knows there is so no escape from the flash sideways.

RogueLeader said:

If Holdo has been Ackbar it wouldn’t have really worked. The whole point of Holdo is to be someone we don’t know and don’t trust, much like Poe, someone without an established relationship with the audience.

Interesting point, but I’d argue that suits Ackbar’s character perfectly.

From the films we don’t know much about Ackbar. He’s a talented strategist. But the moment the rebels realize the shields are still on, Ackbar immediately says “retreat”. It’s Lando who encourages them to keep fighting. Even the trap line signifies he doesn’t like to have the odds stacked against while on the offensive.

In fact, when we think of Ackbar we immediately go to the Battle of Endor. Like Poe immediately jumping to Holdo’s victory. Poe/audience has high expectations to see the leader in a commanding role, but is disappointed by their retreating. This lines up perfectly for Ackbar, who we all think is cool but know little about.

I imagine people would just hate on TLJ anyway with the claim “they ruined Ackbar”, but personally I think he’d be a better choice.

I don’t think a “master plan” was needed in the MCU, because the films are by there very nature episodic. The only two connected in the same way a trilogy was is Infinity War and Endgame, and they are made by the exact same team under the same production.