OutboundFlight

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

Anakin Starkiller said:

He is able to exit Hyperspace between the Starkiller’s shields and the planet’s crust, a feat lifted from an early script of TPM where only Anakin’s Force ability was able to manage such a thing.

And no, the Force has always consistently been something that anyone can learn, but that some have a natural affinity for. That hasn’t changed.

Then why did Rey just suddenly get her powers, without working for anything? It’s explained very clearly in TLJ as the “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Since Kylo trained for many years to become a dark lord, Rey must get all those powers within a couple days to restore balance (probably because Luke shut himself out).

Concerning the force in the ST, I would argue the exact opposite.

In all three trilogies, we are presented three distinct philosophies for the force.

In the Prequels, we are told force power is determined by midichlorians aka biology within us. Anakin won the generic lottery and became powerful. Almost everyone considers this dumb, but unlike the other trilogies this goes out of its way to push this idea and as such is the most prevalent within the community today.

In the Originals, the force is implied to be something anyone can learn. Some might have heritage, but that’s the equivalent of being the child of Michael Jordan. You still have to work to reach professional level. Had Sy Snoodles trained under Yoda she could become a Jedi, provider she work for it. In my humble opinion this is the best take on the force.

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

NOT POSSIBLE BY FANEDITING
The resistance spy concept isn’t a new idea, but every time I hear it I feel like ha-la-lu-la!

It solves so many problems on so many levels. Explains why Holdo keeps the plan from everyone. Explains the slow nature of the chase, the First Order wants to board them not destroy them as they have a man on the inside.

Finn’s story would be even stronger. He has a connection to the First Order. Initially he wants to stop the spy. But the spy could be revealed to be a neutral character, just trying to get along in life. Just like Finn was at the beginning, when all he cares about is Rey. Finn can learn from the spy the importance of serving a greater good.

At the end, the Supremancy gets in range to board with cover. The transports come in, and there have the Phasma fight in a place where it makes sense. And you do that all in a limited area, to add tension.

Maybe Rose could be the spy? That would be interesting. Or just some generic guy played be Del Toro.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Tantive3+1 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

SilverWook said:

Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest. 😃

I want to agree wholeheartedly. If only someone would develop Kurtz’s ideas for ROTJ into a comic or animated film.

I want to see it developed into a fan film, like Vader Episode I.

So a low-budget production with amateur nobodies replacing Hamill, Fisher, Ford, etc.? Can’t say that’s my cup of tea.

Well start looking for the World between Worlds portal then…

There’s no arguing the fandom is divided into numerous factions. The difference between here and Reddit/YouTube is we debate instead of scream.

All of us understand that liking or disliking the ST doesn’t make you a bad person. It’s just differences in taste, and we then tell others why we feel the way we do. Often times I have gotten a better understanding on the other side.

And I simply do not get the people who “hate” the new films or the prequels. Maybe the special editions because they took away the proper OT. But at the end of the day they are just movies and they aren’t for everyone. Don’t get too riled up by all this.

Watching these clickbait channels it’s ridiculous how someone can actually be toxic. I feel bad for Rian, even though I dislike his movie he has been under attack for the last year by a toxic fanbase.

I imagine it was happening lightyears before, while Earth was still being created.

So one of these days we are gonna look up at the Stars and all in a flash see three deaths stars explode. And the saga will be over before anyone knows what just happened.

I’m a bit confused regarding the oscar nominees this year, but yay for Star Wars!

That being said I don’t think Solo will win visual effects 😔. While the CGI was solid it was anything dazzling like some others on this list.

snooker said:

You could replace TC-14 with 3PO for a quick cameo.

Yes. All you have to do is insert “Hello, I’m C-3PO Human Cyborg Relations”. If I’m not mistaken he was silver in AOTC, so it works.

snooker said:

Y’know how Force Awakens is a soft remake of A New Hope? So is Phantom Menace, except it feels like it’s been translated through 16 different languages. Is it possible to shift Phantom Menace closer to A New Hope/The Force Awakens? Of course, adding a superweapon to the plot is theoretically possible (although stupid).

What if Naboo serves the same ‘plot location’ as the Death Star? The movie starts on Tatooine (Tatooine/Jakku), we learn of a captured queen, we rescue her from enemy territory (Death Star/Occupied Naboo/Starkiller Base), there’s a space battle as we escape the enemy (TIE Fighter Attack/Escape from Naboo/Escape from Jakku), we return to a safe area (Yavin IV/Coruscant/D’Qar), there’s a final battle for peace and freedom (Battle of Yavin/Reclaiming Naboo/Battle of Starkiller Base). Of course you’d occasionally cut to what the Queen is up to in the first act.

I feel like you’d have to shift the ‘point of view’ character to Anakin for this to work, taking the place of Luke or Rey as the protagonist. Maybe the Naboo royal starship is just the Jedi’s ship?

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan could serve the same narrative purpose as 3PO and R2, stranded on a planet (with a broken ship), they meet a boy who wishes to help and join them among the stars.

Oh. my.

Poetry really does rhyme.

That being said, I think this might near too similar to ANH. I really don’t see the comparisons between ANH/TFA besides a planet destroying superweapon. I feel like opening the movie with a young boy dreaming to escape on Tatooine and rescue a princess might be going too far. Still, a very interesting plot layout that I wouldn’t mind watching.

LordZerome1080 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Hmm, that’s true.

The entire escape from Naboo-return to Naboo was a giant waste of time. Anakin is the only important thing that happens, but he takes away from the film’s focus. It’s as if there are two films in one.

I think the best thing to do is start the movie on Tatooine as a one off adventure. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have sent to find a young boy with unremarkable force talent. They find Anakin, mind trick him out of slavery and go on their way (no need for an extended pod race). What follows instead is a race against Maul, who wants to kidnap the boy for his own sinister purposes. Maul could be collecting force sensitive children for a phantom menace.

They return to Coruscant, and here we can have a big reveal of how mighty the Republic is (like the Empire’s Death Star reveal. See? It’s like poetry, it rhymes). The Jedi decide upon further review he is to old to be trained and want no part in him. But Qui-Gon, unlike the reserved Jedi, has positive emotion and won’t give Anakin up for Maul to take.

While this is happening, Palaptine informs the Jedi of the Naboo Crisis. Then 25 minutes or so in we head to Naboo and stay there for the rest of the movie, intercutting the opening and final battle to one. Would be hard to pull off, but that’s the best structure I can think of.

Just cut out bad dialogue and all Gungans and you have a winning edit.

Not really. The movie is inherently boring.

Challenge: rank all versions of all the movies.

Hmm, that’s true.

The entire escape from Naboo-return to Naboo was a giant waste of time. Anakin is the only important thing that happens, but he takes away from the film’s focus. It’s as if there are two films in one.

I think the best thing to do is start the movie on Tatooine as a one off adventure. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have sent to find a young boy with unremarkable force talent. They find Anakin, mind trick him out of slavery and go on their way (no need for an extended pod race). What follows instead is a race against Maul, who wants to kidnap the boy for his own sinister purposes. Maul could be collecting force sensitive children for a phantom menace.

They return to Coruscant, and here we can have a big reveal of how mighty the Republic is (like the Empire’s Death Star reveal. See? It’s like poetry, it rhymes). The Jedi decide upon further review he is to old to be trained and want no part in him. But Qui-Gon, unlike the reserved Jedi, has positive emotion and won’t give Anakin up for Maul to take.

While this is happening, Palaptine informs the Jedi of the Naboo Crisis. Then 25 minutes or so in we head to Naboo and stay there for the rest of the movie, intercutting the opening and final battle to one. Would be hard to pull off, but that’s the best structure I can think of.

snooker said:

I assumed title drop in January and first trailer in April, like The Last Jedi.

Disney may have learned their lesson with marketing Solo while the Avengers is already dominating. Drop the teaser just before Endgame comes out and you can have it running before the other massive movie of this year.

As for the title, Endgame managed to hold out for an extended period and create plenty of hype so they coodbbe trying to replicate that.

Then actual marketing can start October, when there’s not much competition left besides Jumanji 3.

I thought Kessel and Correlia were cool, and we didn’t see much of Mimban but for what we did it worked.

Only ones that are indeed “repetitive” are the snow planet and desert planet, but there’s gotta be a lot of deserts out there. It’s a planet of no interest, that happens to be by Kessel and is suddenly a battleground.

As for the snow planet they go for this Himalayan style that sets it apart from Hoth.

Well it’s kinda annoying 10 minutes into the film, where I’m most invested in the short, I’ll be interrupted by the GROUPON APP.

So if I’m not mistaken Star Wars Theory already approached Disney before posting? In that case it’s strange they only act after it was a major hit.

Disney isn’t in the wrong of course, they were the ones who spent 4 billion on the franchise and they own the property. But how they went about it is a bit weird and annoying.

snooker said:

Solution: Make Tatooine a superweapon.

Behold…

THE SINGULARITY ENGINE!

The general definition of Gary/Mary Sue is a character written by someone into someone else’s already established story, who then proceeds to become a manifestation of the author by being better than everyone else- even if they have had years of experience and the new character none. They have no flaws and end up saving the day with little help. The prime example for this is a new Star Trek Ensign who is smarter than Spock and a more efficient leader than Kirk.

Let’s take a look at Rey. Don’t have much a problem with TFA. But by TLJ, we learn Luke has lost all his optimism for the Jedi. Whhaaa? That was Luke’s primary character trait. It made him stand out beyond even legends like Yoda and Obi-Wan. It’s interesting perhaps for a novel focusing on Luke, but within a two hour movie that’s a lot to cram in. So they spent their time with Luke and turned Rey into the mentor character. Rey is at a point in this film more optimistic than Luke, and later it’s shown she can shoot on the Falcon far better than Han ever did. And to top things off, she lifts all the boulders with no effort, about as much as the x-wing from empire only Yoda struggled so she must have greater will than him too.

To summarize, she’s more optimistic than Luke, a better shot than Han, and stronger willed than Yoda. By the end of movie Rey’s sole point of weakness was crying a bit with Ben, but that was of empathy. So is Rey’s sole weakness that she cares about others? Really?

Rey being a Mary Sue definitely wasn’t intentional; Rian didn’t imagine him being Rey and proving to everyone he was better. It was an oversight, because he was more interested in telling a one-off story with Luke and already crammed with Kylo, Poe, and Finn.

Voss Caltrez said:

yotsuya said:

So Rey is not an overly physical strong character but is capable and is the main character and therefor supposed to outshine the others. She has setback after setback in what she wants to do as the story (which you can read as the force) pushes her to her destiny. She is exactly the type of strong character we need and definitely not a Mary Sue.

Maybe the problem is 1) using the term “Mary Sue” 2) politicizing of the issue and 3) amateur Youtube critics.

1)As I said, I didn’t think of the term “Mary Sue” when seeing TFA, and I didn’t think Rey being good at so many things right away was because the character was a woman.

Remember that Rey being a woman has nothing to do with her being a Mary Sue. She could be Ray the male scavenger and still be called a Gary Stu. There’s certainly some sexist people who use it as a way to demean her, but for most it’s just an extension of English’s gender pronouns. If we had been speaking in Hungarian (a language where he and she are the same thing) we would use the same term. Daisy Ridly didn’t help with this by completing misinterpreting the definition.

I remember playing Complete Saga and Clone Wars. Both very fun games (CW is criminally underrated). Never picked up TFA, was really busy then and didn’t have much time for games. It seems kinda ridiculous they managed to squeeze one movie into an entire game. I imagine it had more than six levels 😃

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I think the difference here is the actual intentions of the filmmakers. For example if I have a problem with the Ewoks, a quick online search will show that Lucas was referencing the Vietnam war. Okay, that might not change my mind, but I can at least see where he was coming from and get a sense of the intention.

So with Rey I might be perplexed at her power levels and how that might clash with my sense of SW canon. If I hit Google what I’ll find is Kathleen Kennedy banging on about ‘strong female characters’. Ewoks as a Vietnam allegory makes sense to me. Palpatine as Nixon makes sense to me. Rey being superwoman because ‘strong female characters’ is nonsense. That’s not storytelling being inspired by politics. That’s politics subsuming storytelling.

I think you’re misunderstanding the phrase and what it means. I’d also be curious to see those Kennedy quotes as I’m not sure what you’re referring too.

OutboundFlight said:

When Rey and Kylo face off for a round two of TLJ, Rey wins off-screen. We have one character effortlessly beating the other twice,

I don’t have a problem with the rest of your post (some of it I agree, some agree to disagree), but this is just plain inaccurate. Rey does not win off screen. They come to a draw with the lightsaber and she runs away while Kylo’s knocked out. That’s not her “beating” him. As for the other win, it clearly was not “effortless,” as she was on the ropes before she used the force.

Although she may have not knocked Kylo out, she was the first one to wake up (or she never said awake the whole time). Regardless Rey was stronger and was awake where Kylo was knocked out. Had she wanted she could have killed him right then and there (and I wonder why the story didn’t lean in on this). That sounds to me like beating.

I think we should compare General Leia with Rey. And for fun and games mesa want to add Jar Jar to the mix.

General Leia
Unlike Luke or Han, Leia is a rebel leader from the outset. So while Leia’s successes and failures may not be as immediately obvious as Luke or Han, in many ways the rebellion’s victories and losses strategically rest of Leia’s shoulders.

Leia first significant scene sees her arrested by Vader. Instantly we see one person standing up for a righteous cause and now being punished and another choking the captain and reprimanding the underdog. In this scene we have established an emotional connection to Leia’s plight-save the rebellion- and grown a dislike for Vader. Fast forward and we see her resisting torture, another reason for the audience to like her. Then her planet blows up.

Once she is “rescued” Leia proves herself by going down the garbage shoot. But does this make her a Mary Sue? No. We have seen Leia suffer and now like that she is finally able to take action and eventually defeat the bad guys. And yet even then it is still a team effort- Leia’s plan is fine until the garbage begin to compress and now its up to R2 to save the day. This is called “teamwork” and it helps create dynamic groups where everyone gets their moment to both shine and fail- so that they still feel real. The Yavin battle is just as emotionally engaging from Leia’s POV.

I’m not going to do the rest of the trilogy because it’s more or less the same (albeit less a focus on Leia in favor of Han beyond 4). From what is implied between OT and ST Leia succeeds a bit and fails a lot, but she is on the right path during 7 and 8. We don’t see much of her though. I don’t have a problem with “Leia Poppins” from a canon POV, although I do dislike how it deflates the storytelling tension.

Overall, we can conclude Leia is a great character. Not a great female character. A great character. I don’t hear many people calling Leia a Mary Sue.

Jar Jar Binks
Now let’s take a look at a poorly written character. Jar Jar. From the moment we see Jar Jar we dislike him. He annoys our heroes. Qui-Gon then asks him to show them to Gungan City, but it shouldn’t have been that hard to find. He screams his way through the planet core. Messes with the pod racer and pit droid. Steps in poo doo. Keeps annoying everyone.

What can we conclude about this character? Well, he fails a lot. And he’s annoying. So we don’t like him. The fail : win ratio is off balance. By the end of the story Jar Jar is promoted to general because the script said so. Then he continues to fail in the battle and is saved at the last second by Anakin destroying the ship. Had TPM given Jar Jar some likable aspects- maybe his people had to flee their homeland and go into the ocean because of the droids, we would have a motivation from which Jar Jar can help out the Jedi and eventually free his people from the droids. But he never gets a chance to prove himself.

Rey
At first glance Rey is a likable character. She is in a tough situation but working through it. Unkar Plutt uses her by lowering the profits. Then she meets BB8 and she wants him to leave, but by the next scene she doesn’t want to sell him? It’d be stronger if we saw this arc on the way to Nima Outpost but ok. So far Rey is well-written with lots of potential.

Rey successfully escapes the First Order, but presses the wrong button and lets the squids out. Again this is a good win/loss ratio. They establish a weakness- fear of letting go of her past. It’s good. Then Rey beats Kylo Ren.

Prior to the TLJ, I didn’t think Rey was a Mary Sue. I thought the mystery set up would explain why Rey suddenly got her powers, and that next time Rey faced Kylo it wouldn’t go so good for her- Kylo wouldn’t have been wounded anymore. Instead, we got a film more interested in Luke than Rey.

I don’t have a problem with the concept Luke turning emo. The problem comes when so much screentime is focused on Luke, Canto Bight, and Poe’s mutiny; all of which ultimately lead to what would have happened had they not been there in the first place (Luke’s return, Finn and Rose doing nothing, the transports launching anyway). These distract from Rey, who does very little in TLJ. She is sad that her parents are nobodies, but didn’t we already address this in TFA? If not, shouldn’t there have been a couple scenes to set this up, maybe a conversation with Luke about his daddy issues?

When Rey and Kylo face off for a round two of TLJ, Rey wins off-screen. We have one character effortlessly beating the other twice, and another desperately seeking what they consider to be the right path but faced with great struggle. That’s Luke and Vader, only swapped. By the end of TLJ, Rey is projected to win despite having no clear motivation anymore (besides good guys are good) and a lopsided ratio favoring wins (the opposite of Jar Jar). Kylo on the other hand has a valid motive, several victories (Han, Snoke) and several losses (Rey, Luke).

So yeah, that’s why I’m routing for Kylo Ren in Episode 9. Had they been gender swapped same would apply.

Anakin Starkiller said:

openly mocking fans (“Your Snoke theory sucks”) for simply theorising on events and questions setup by TFA

Tbf, all the Snoke and Rey theories did suck. There were a couple for Rey that were decent (memory wiped student of Luke and new Chosen One), but I wasn’t actively rooting for them to come true. Everything else it was blatantly clear wasn’t gonna happen if you have any basic understanding of storytelling and the direction of these movies. Seriously, why did so many people think Snoke would be revealed as that guy Palpatine mentions once a film that these new ones are clearly ignoring? I got both what I hoped for and expected with these two mystery boxes, and no plausible alternatives were presented within the films themselves.

For me at least, it’s strange to see one character receive six films of buildup and another very little explanation of where he came from (or what his faction is). Something as simple as a casual mention of Palpatine’s secret apprentice would have been fine.

Anakin Starkiller said:

I agree on Starkiller. The trees make a big difference. I’m thinking of going beyond that and making it a snowy volcano world like in the concept art, but only because I need to explain the crack appearing during the duel since I’m not blowing the planet up.

Ah yes. That ice and fire concept art looked amazing.

Honestly, I think TFA was in general a superior film before they denied all those concept arts.