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Midichlorians Are Not The Force

NeverarGreat said:

I think it’s pretty clear that each film does damage to the simplicity and mysticism of the original (let’s say Cosmic) Force:

Great post Nev. I’ll try to answer these with what I think of each one.

ANH: The Force is a mystical energy field which binds the galaxy together. It is not necessarily tied to bloodlines and in fact is heavily implied to be available to anyone: ‘May the Force be with you.’


ESB: The Dark Side is now called that by the villains unironically, is now tied purely to ‘negative’ emotions, and the Force is strongly implied to be tied to specific bloodlines.

The dark side bit is indeed unfortunate, though I don’t see why Empire would imply the Force is tied to specific bloodlines.

ROTJ: The Force is almost certainly carried by bloodlines, the Dark Side is implied to be alluring to the point of being a brainwashing spell, and the most powerful ability in the galaxy is shooting lightning at someone.

Again, I don’t think the Force is carried by bloodlines, but I’ll get more to that later. I really don’t like the dumbed down dark side either, but I don’t think shooting lightning at someone is necessarily the most powerful ability in the Universe. There’s probably so many other abilities we can’t even begin to imagine…

TPM: The Force is scientifically detectable as a marker in a person’s blood.

Okay so here’s where (I think) we disagree (I’ll share my view regardless). The Midichlorians are in all living cells, as stated by Qui-Gon. I think it’s a cheap way Lucas found to try and sell that “Anakin is the most powerful being ever” as best he could, but it doesn’t contradict anything in the post-TESB world. Basically, the midichlorians quantify “talent”. How ‘talented’ you are with the Force. But everyone has them, and anyone can learn the ways of the force with discipline, belief, will and a lot of training.

So I think that the Force isn’t really hereditary because everyone has it - the uniqueness is that a father who’s strong with the Force will probably have a child who’s strong also. Though since PT Jedi can’t have kids, it’s obviously not tied to bloodlines, no?

I like to compare mastering the Force with mastering an instrument. Anyone can do it, some people are much better than others (hence, midichlorians, again, a dumb way to quantify ‘talent’, but not really offensive or contradictory IMO) but all have to work extremely hard to get a good grasp at it regardless of how powerful you are. Or, rather, that’s how I used to see it before the ST.

AOTC: Now even shooting lightning at someone isn’t special. A master of the Force famed for his pacifist view of the Force needs a weapon.

Agreed. I get what Lucas was going for with Yoda in the prequels and I think that as an idea it’s pretty sound, though the execution is always slightly off and Yoda thus feels awkward and out of place most of the time.

ROTS: The most powerful Force user in the galaxy is reduced to using a weapon and spinning like a beyblade. Becoming a Force Ghost is now an unlockable Jedi perk.


TFA: Inherited Force powers are unambiguously confirmed, doubly so considering Rey’s retcon.

Hmm, how so? Without Rey’s retcon, I guess you have Kylo? But then again that’s not really contradicting anything or adding anything to the mix, is it? The new thing here in TFA is just how active a role the Force plays as opposed to in the other movies. That’s the only explanation I can come up with to excuse Rey learning so much so quickly, even if it’s not really stated in the movie ever.

TLJ: The Force is reduced by the villain to a mathematical equation and this is never refuted, only confirmed.

I rather liked what they did, honestly. The new meaning of ‘Balance of the Force’. Lucas always said it was about destroying evil but TLJ shows that the world’s not quite that black and white. Regardless, since this isn’t present in any of the other movies it kind of feels awkward now for TLJ to redefine what “Balance of the Force” means. It’s now the odd one out. (Which is good because now I watch it as a standalone coda to the saga, hehe)

TROS: The most powerful Force user in the galaxy can be defeated by two(2) lightsabers.


Conclusion: Blood is stronger than the Cosmic Force, and some things (lightsabers) are stronger than blood.

I feel like for the OT, the idea is that love is more powerful than the Force. Luke doing the right thing is what inspires his father to turn. In the PT that’s still it, love is what makes Anakin turn to the dark side. I guess it all coming down to lightsaber fights in the end is a bit too simple and silly but I don’t really think it betrays the nature of the Force, even if it is a dumbed down way to make Yoda face the Emperor.

As for the ST, if they had fully committed to the idea that the “will of the Force” is more than just how the Universe is ‘feeling’ at any given moment and made the Force a more active player, trying to balance itself out, giving powers to Rey and all, it would’ve been interesting. To me it falls flat because they ditched that aspect for the third film (just the one that was supposed to fill in the rest of the gaps!) and just made it a “destroy the dark side” thing once again. Oh well. Now Palpatine’s dead for good, though!

Best Performance by an Actor/Actress in the Star Wars Movies

I’d say people in this thread are overlooking Hamill in TESB.

Obviously most of the credit goes to Frank Oz for making Yoda so believable and real, but what about Hamill? Part of why we’re sold on the green puppet being a wise Jedi Master is because Hamill makes it so easy for us to believe it as well, which can’t have been easy. Think about it, Luke’s only scene in the movie with other human characters is the one where he’s recovering after the Wampa attack, and even that is mainly a Han/Leia scene. And when Luke faces Vader, the big reveal and all? Hamill was reacting to words he wasn’t even hearing! So I think it’s worth pointing it out here how he also deserves some recognition for selling the Vader reveal and Yoda. If he didn’t make us believe, regardless of how fantastic Frank Oz’s performance might’ve been, it would’ve been real hard to be sold on the puppet frog.

Prediction for Star Wars X, XI, and XII

theprequelsrule said:

NeverarGreat said:

Star Wars has always been political.

And if fighting against fascism offends the political sensibilities of some viewers, then they should be offended.

Zombie84 wrote the Secret History of Star Wars; the best source for what these films are all about. Comic books and Lensmen are the main inspiration. Any politics are tangential to the action. And any Heroes Journey stuff is window dressing at best. And the fight against some sort of tyranny is an old trope, just to give all the fun action some sort of rough framework.

Did you miss this part of American history called the Vietnam War

Unpopular Opinion Thread

fmalover said:

SparkySywer said:

fmalover said:

My unpopular opinion on the ST: TLJ will be redeemed by the passage of time and stand out as the only worthwhile entry of the ST.

Kind of agree. I have a soft spot for TFA and I can forgive it for not doing a whole lot, because of the context of the time it was made in. Its purpose was to bring back trust in Lucasfilm after the Disney buyout and the prequels, and it honestly did its job.

TFA had the opposite effect on me. Repackaging the first SW movie and relying on nostalgia left me deeply disappointed, and I don’t know why TFA is still regarded so highly. For all their flaws I still find enjoyment in the prequels, but TFA is just plain garbage, and I don’t buy into the whole “they had to play it safe to earn the fans trust”. Bullshit!

Fully agree here as well, with your takes on TFA & TLJ, fmalover. I like how TLJ is an analysis on the mythos of the saga - and that makes it independent from TFA - because TFA contributes absolutely nothing to those mythos. TLJ’s characters might depend on TFA, but not its themes, which is where the movie truly excels. You don’t need to know Finn’s backstory in order for what his story in TLJ says to have value.

It functions perfectly as a coda to the saga. Why does all that’s been said and done in all of SW matter? What does it mean, at the end of the day when you wake up being just a real person, to be a hero? To do the right thing? TFA and TROS have nothing to say and I have no respect to them for it. I guess TFA won back some fans, something that baffles me, and I honestly believe the opinion on that will sour over time. TLJ on the other hand has a whole lot to say and is the perfect epilogue, a coda. A treat.

Anyone else dislike Rogue One? I feel like the only person.

This probably isn’t the thread for this - since this is a thread mostly for people that don’t like the movie finding other people that don’t like the movie - but I absolutely LOVE Rogue One. It nailed the Star Wars aesthetic and feel for me.

It’s the first one, since the original movie, that gave me the true feeling of the underdogs going on a hopeless, suicide mission, for something greater than themselves. I don’t think it undermines Star Wars in any way, Luke’s miraculous, heroic shot is still that. If anything, it makes Rogue One resonate even more, given that all the effort that went down to steal the plans payed off.

I loved every character (even if Chirrut and especially Baze are quite underdeveloped) and I thought the movie had the best humor in a SW movie since TESB. It was a fantastic and joyful experience for me, and I especially love how harmless it is. Don’t like it, move along, like it, alright! I also love that the movie had the balls to make the entire cast die at the end, fulfilling their selfless goal of bringing people hope to fight another day against tyranny. That’s literally what Star Wars is all about, and Rogue One nails it.

How often do you watch the Original Trilogy?

I haven’t watched ROTJ in its entirety in years, probably 4 or so. I’m waiting for me to finally get off my ass and edit it for it to go back to regular rotation. TESB I usually watch once every couple of years. Star Wars I watch at least once every year, but usually more.

As for the others… I’ve only seen Solo twice, and Rogue One three or four times. I don’t think I’ll revisit them very often, though Rogue One is my favorite of the two and one of my favorites in general. TROS only once, and I intend to keep it that way, TFA many times in 2015/16 but I think only once since (two days ago, and I don’t think I’ll watch it anytime soon), and TLJ I’ve seen like 7 or 8 times, but I don’t see myself watching it more than once every 2/3 years. As for the PT, I don’t usually watch TPM or AOTC, but I’ve seen them tons of times, and ROTS I watch once every couple of years ish, like TESB.

Opinions Change

The one movie I changed my opinion on, over the years, was TLJ. Still, it wasn’t a drastic change, it’s mostly that when it came out, it almost left a sweet taste in my mouth. Almost. I didn’t hate it, I thought it was very middle of the road due to very high highs but mostly average moments and very low lows. I thought the editing was subpar at times, with the movie being way too long (I really felt the runtime) and some very unfortunate 2010s “Joss Whedon” humor, which has no place in Star Wars and made me feel like I was watching a parody sometimes. I seemed to be alone in neither hating nor loving it though, it seemed like it was either one or the other.

Then came the TLJ debates. They were endless, and talking about the movie eventually swung me to the “hate” side, because the people on that side were, in the end, saying lots of things I agreed with. I hate the setting of the Sequel Trilogy, the reset in the status quo for nothing, just because they needed to make a soft reboot of the original movie for nostalgia reasons. I can’t bring myself not to hate TFA. I hate it on principle, and that barrier is seemingly never going to come down. TFA has no heart, no soul, and that unfortunately bled over to TLJ. So I can never fully love TLJ due to the context it’s in, due to how everything around the movie is, due to being a sequel to TFA.

Luckily for me, TLJ is not really about that. In fact almost nothing “story-wise” happened, as in, not a lot you’d put on history books. It’s almost all character stuff, even the big moments. So slowly, over the years, I’ve been softening up on the movie. I eventually came back to my original opinion that it’s okay, and now I love it. It’s not on par with top-tier SW, but it’s pretty damn close, and I’m happy I appreciate it. There’s still stuff it does I don’t like, obviously, but I like almost all of it.

Ahsoka Tano - discussion

So my girlfriend actually had this complaint about Mando that didn’t even cross my mind and I didn’t see anyone else talk about: she said that Ahsoka in Chapter 13 was very out of character, in not wanting to train Grogu because of his attachment to Din, and she argued that it goes against Ahsoka’s TCW arc.

I guess in a way Ahsoka does leave the orthodox PT Jedi way behind when she refuses to come back to the order, but I’m not sure if that means she disagrees that attachments are bad and potentially lead to the dark side. At the end of the Clone War she just thinks the Jedi lost their connection to the real world and are little more than war mongers, even if some of them have an honest heart. Plus the only other, more affectionate, loving and compassionate Jedi she knew was Anakin, whom she formed a strong bond with, but we all know where that led him.

So I disagreed with my girlfriend, but I saw where she was coming from, that Ahsoka isn’t meant to be a PT Jedi, in fact quite the opposite. But I’m not too big on TCW myself, and only saw Rebels once, so maybe there are more factors here that I’m not considering. What do you Ahsoka and TCW/Rebels fans think?

Going away? Post so here!

Huh. Seems weird that a former member feels the right to ban a current member of the site. Maybe it’s just me.

Edit: oops, just re-read the whole post. Good for you that you still have your mod capabilities, oojason. More power to you. Though the banning seems a bit unnecessary given a mod had already intervened. However, I’ll say no more. It’s not my place. Apologies.