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Direct references to the PT that were made in Disney’s ST

Mocata said:

In TFA there’s a clone army reference by Hux, and the city that houses the New Republic capital seems intentionally similar to Coruscant.

I think that speaks more to wanting to avoid/destroy the PT. Abrams literally blew up the PT planet, though my guess is someone didn’t want Coruscant blown up so it was made Haxus Prime or something.

Midichlorians Are Not The Force

NeverarGreat said:

I think it’s pretty clear that each film does damage to the simplicity and mysticism of the original (let’s say Cosmic) Force:

Great post Nev. I’ll try to answer these with what I think of each one.

ANH: The Force is a mystical energy field which binds the galaxy together. It is not necessarily tied to bloodlines and in fact is heavily implied to be available to anyone: ‘May the Force be with you.’


ESB: The Dark Side is now called that by the villains unironically, is now tied purely to ‘negative’ emotions, and the Force is strongly implied to be tied to specific bloodlines.

The dark side bit is indeed unfortunate, though I don’t see why Empire would imply the Force is tied to specific bloodlines.

ROTJ: The Force is almost certainly carried by bloodlines, the Dark Side is implied to be alluring to the point of being a brainwashing spell, and the most powerful ability in the galaxy is shooting lightning at someone.

Again, I don’t think the Force is carried by bloodlines, but I’ll get more to that later. I really don’t like the dumbed down dark side either, but I don’t think shooting lightning at someone is necessarily the most powerful ability in the Universe. There’s probably so many other abilities we can’t even begin to imagine…

TPM: The Force is scientifically detectable as a marker in a person’s blood.

Okay so here’s where (I think) we disagree (I’ll share my view regardless). The Midichlorians are in all living cells, as stated by Qui-Gon. I think it’s a cheap way Lucas found to try and sell that “Anakin is the most powerful being ever” as best he could, but it doesn’t contradict anything in the post-TESB world. Basically, the midichlorians quantify “talent”. How ‘talented’ you are with the Force. But everyone has them, and anyone can learn the ways of the force with discipline, belief, will and a lot of training.

So I think that the Force isn’t really hereditary because everyone has it - the uniqueness is that a father who’s strong with the Force will probably have a child who’s strong also. Though since PT Jedi can’t have kids, it’s obviously not tied to bloodlines, no?

I like to compare mastering the Force with mastering an instrument. Anyone can do it, some people are much better than others (hence, midichlorians, again, a dumb way to quantify ‘talent’, but not really offensive or contradictory IMO) but all have to work extremely hard to get a good grasp at it regardless of how powerful you are. Or, rather, that’s how I used to see it before the ST.

AOTC: Now even shooting lightning at someone isn’t special. A master of the Force famed for his pacifist view of the Force needs a weapon.

Agreed. I get what Lucas was going for with Yoda in the prequels and I think that as an idea it’s pretty sound, though the execution is always slightly off and Yoda thus feels awkward and out of place most of the time.

ROTS: The most powerful Force user in the galaxy is reduced to using a weapon and spinning like a beyblade. Becoming a Force Ghost is now an unlockable Jedi perk.


TFA: Inherited Force powers are unambiguously confirmed, doubly so considering Rey’s retcon.

Hmm, how so? Without Rey’s retcon, I guess you have Kylo? But then again that’s not really contradicting anything or adding anything to the mix, is it? The new thing here in TFA is just how active a role the Force plays as opposed to in the other movies. That’s the only explanation I can come up with to excuse Rey learning so much so quickly, even if it’s not really stated in the movie ever.

TLJ: The Force is reduced by the villain to a mathematical equation and this is never refuted, only confirmed.

I rather liked what they did, honestly. The new meaning of ‘Balance of the Force’. Lucas always said it was about destroying evil but TLJ shows that the world’s not quite that black and white. Regardless, since this isn’t present in any of the other movies it kind of feels awkward now for TLJ to redefine what “Balance of the Force” means. It’s now the odd one out. (Which is good because now I watch it as a standalone coda to the saga, hehe)

TROS: The most powerful Force user in the galaxy can be defeated by two(2) lightsabers.


Conclusion: Blood is stronger than the Cosmic Force, and some things (lightsabers) are stronger than blood.

I feel like for the OT, the idea is that love is more powerful than the Force. Luke doing the right thing is what inspires his father to turn. In the PT that’s still it, love is what makes Anakin turn to the dark side. I guess it all coming down to lightsaber fights in the end is a bit too simple and silly but I don’t really think it betrays the nature of the Force, even if it is a dumbed down way to make Yoda face the Emperor.

As for the ST, if they had fully committed to the idea that the “will of the Force” is more than just how the Universe is ‘feeling’ at any given moment and made the Force a more active player, trying to balance itself out, giving powers to Rey and all, it would’ve been interesting. To me it falls flat because they ditched that aspect for the third film (just the one that was supposed to fill in the rest of the gaps!) and just made it a “destroy the dark side” thing once again. Oh well. Now Palpatine’s dead for good, though!

Best Performance by an Actor/Actress in the Star Wars Movies

I’d say people in this thread are overlooking Hamill in TESB.

Obviously most of the credit goes to Frank Oz for making Yoda so believable and real, but what about Hamill? Part of why we’re sold on the green puppet being a wise Jedi Master is because Hamill makes it so easy for us to believe it as well, which can’t have been easy. Think about it, Luke’s only scene in the movie with other human characters is the one where he’s recovering after the Wampa attack, and even that is mainly a Han/Leia scene. And when Luke faces Vader, the big reveal and all? Hamill was reacting to words he wasn’t even hearing! So I think it’s worth pointing it out here how he also deserves some recognition for selling the Vader reveal and Yoda. If he didn’t make us believe, regardless of how fantastic Frank Oz’s performance might’ve been, it would’ve been real hard to be sold on the puppet frog.

Prediction for Star Wars X, XI, and XII

theprequelsrule said:

NeverarGreat said:

Star Wars has always been political.

And if fighting against fascism offends the political sensibilities of some viewers, then they should be offended.

Zombie84 wrote the Secret History of Star Wars; the best source for what these films are all about. Comic books and Lensmen are the main inspiration. Any politics are tangential to the action. And any Heroes Journey stuff is window dressing at best. And the fight against some sort of tyranny is an old trope, just to give all the fun action some sort of rough framework.

Did you miss this part of American history called the Vietnam War

Unpopular Opinion Thread

fmalover said:

SparkySywer said:

fmalover said:

My unpopular opinion on the ST: TLJ will be redeemed by the passage of time and stand out as the only worthwhile entry of the ST.

Kind of agree. I have a soft spot for TFA and I can forgive it for not doing a whole lot, because of the context of the time it was made in. Its purpose was to bring back trust in Lucasfilm after the Disney buyout and the prequels, and it honestly did its job.

TFA had the opposite effect on me. Repackaging the first SW movie and relying on nostalgia left me deeply disappointed, and I don’t know why TFA is still regarded so highly. For all their flaws I still find enjoyment in the prequels, but TFA is just plain garbage, and I don’t buy into the whole “they had to play it safe to earn the fans trust”. Bullshit!

Fully agree here as well, with your takes on TFA & TLJ, fmalover. I like how TLJ is an analysis on the mythos of the saga - and that makes it independent from TFA - because TFA contributes absolutely nothing to those mythos. TLJ’s characters might depend on TFA, but not its themes, which is where the movie truly excels. You don’t need to know Finn’s backstory in order for what his story in TLJ says to have value.

It functions perfectly as a coda to the saga. Why does all that’s been said and done in all of SW matter? What does it mean, at the end of the day when you wake up being just a real person, to be a hero? To do the right thing? TFA and TROS have nothing to say and I have no respect to them for it. I guess TFA won back some fans, something that baffles me, and I honestly believe the opinion on that will sour over time. TLJ on the other hand has a whole lot to say and is the perfect epilogue, a coda. A treat.