NeverarGreat

Anakin Starkiller said:

The USA really isn’t all that bad. Yes it has serious issues (such as the whole abortion issue), but it’s still a decent country. It is in NO way a “shithole”. Be glad you’re not living in North Korea.

This. I don’t “like” the US per say but it’s frankly ludicrous when people claim Donald Trump or whoever candidate/president they hate is a literal dictator bringing about the end of democracy in America. These people have no sense of perspective.

I agree that it’s absurd and tiresome for people to attack political opponents in extreme terms, especially when all they usually do is attempt to game America’s backwards election system to gain power.

To put it in perspective, no president in American history has actually declared the results of a free election fraudulent, threatened elections officials who disagreed, and incited a violent uprising against its government.

Except one.

I’ve long suspected that the capitalist vs socialist framing of countries is largely a distraction which confuses more than illuminates. I find that a simplifying factor for determining the virtue of a country is its level of democracy as opposed to autocracy. America has never been a true democracy but is quickly barreling towards oligarchy or even full autocracy and the enshrinement of minority rule.

Your experience in Venezuela sounds terrible, but comports with what I’ve read, which is that the country has been quite autocratic throughout the 21st century. It’s difficult for any country reliant on mineral or oil wealth to escape the pull of autocracy, as Russia aptly demonstrates.

The question every country must ask is whether it values people over power and profit, and if it is the latter, dictatorship inevitably follows.

BedeHistory731 said:

NeverarGreat said:

Servii said:

Realistically, Anakin should have been fully on the Dark Side after the Tusken massacre. The Dark Side is supposed to be like a drug that takes hold of you once you tap into it. The act of hate-fueled murder should have been more than enough to push him over the edge. It should have been a more damning moment for Anakin, since him hesitantly killing Dooku or attacking Mace is much less severe by comparison.

Exactly. It also robs all power from Luke’s confrontation with Vader in ROTJ because Luke could have done a full genocidal rampage across the Death Star Stormtrooper and Officer Daycare Center and it would have been just a little whoopsie doodle that everyone would instantly forgive because he’s dealing with a lot right now and who hasn’t killed an entire village in a rage before, you sanctimonious hypocrites.

That reminds me, Warhammer 40K is Star Wars on buckets of meth.

From what I’ve gleaned from cultural osmosis, that sounds about right.

RicOlie_2 said:

I’m not sure why. Roe v. Wade isn’t about whether abortion should be allowed or not. It’s about whether the U.S. Constitution guarantees a right to it. It’s mind-boggling that people could read abortion rights into the Constitution.

The Constitution doesn’t guarantee any rights for its citizens, that’s why Constitutional Amendments exist.

The 14th Amendment guarantees the right to privacy, and Roe argued that the right to be secure in your person implied the right to bodily autonomy, thus, abortion.

It’s up for debate, constitutionally, because the Constitution didn’t guarantee a lot of rights now taken for granted, such as for women to have the right to vote, so why would it guarantee the right to an abortion? Pretty sure the Founding Fathers didn’t give women any thought at all. Women were essentially property, and if you weren’t white you can forget the word ‘essentially’.

The only reason this changed was because of Constitutional Amendments such as the 14th and 19th Amendments. This, by the way, is people ‘reading’ rights into the Constitution that never existed. One may argue that there should just be more amendments then, but the last amendment to the constitution which passed both houses of congress and was ratified by the states was proposed in 1971.

For over 50 years, it has been politically impossible to get new amendments passed, even massively popular ones, as evidenced by the Voting Rights Act which languished for most of a decade before dying due to lack of state support. Thus, the process of reading new rights into the Constitution has been taken up by the courts, which of course only last until the courts decide to rescind these rights.

The right to contraceptives, the right to gay and interracial marriage, the right to abortion…all of these rights are contingent on the whims of a court which is wildly unrepresentative of the population at large, and entirely free from oversight and precedent. The last fifty years in America didn’t happen, Constitutionally speaking, and that’s before getting to work on reinterpreting the actual Constitution and its amendments.

This is a ride down a mountain without any brakes.

Servii said:

Realistically, Anakin should have been fully on the Dark Side after the Tusken massacre. The Dark Side is supposed to be like a drug that takes hold of you once you tap into it. The act of hate-fueled murder should have been more than enough to push him over the edge. It should have been a more damning moment for Anakin, since him hesitantly killing Dooku or attacking Mace is much less severe by comparison.

Exactly. It also robs all power from Luke’s confrontation with Vader in ROTJ because Luke could have done a full genocidal rampage across the Death Star Stormtrooper and Officer Daycare Center and it would have been just a little whoopsie doodle that everyone would instantly forgive because he’s dealing with a lot right now and who hasn’t killed an entire village in a rage before, you sanctimonious hypocrites.

I was thinking earlier about the Immolation scene in ROTS and how it feels off. It’s a standard complaint that the end of the fight feels small in comparison to the rest, and it has never felt right to me that Obi-wan would tout having the high ground when he’s just on a bit of a hill. Both of these issues stem from the fact that they are fighting on the side of a nondescript gully and they could have gotten off the platform whenever and wherever they wanted. Anakin could have just stepped off the platform and walked around Obi-wan, but instead he attempts a dramatic leap over his head.

The obvious solution would be to change this hillside into something more dramatic, and I imagine it wouldn’t be too terribly difficult to change some of the landscape to indicate that this gentle slope is actually a narrow promontory surrounded on both sides by fissures or sheer cliff walls.

Original Location:

Dramatic Peninsula:

There are quite a few shots of this location across two scenes, but I imagine with all the smoke and distortion to hide imperfections, it wouldn’t be an insurmountable task.

RogueLeader said:

I know others don’t agree with this, and that’s totally fine, but Cosmonaut Variety Hour summed up my own feelings about the show rather well!

https://youtu.be/QPYpHPC5acg

I watched the same thing!

Agree with most points, except that where Episode 6 worked for them, it fell apart for me. The best stuff in the show for me is still primarily the through line of Obi-wan and Leia, with almost everything else being good on paper but falling apart in execution.

Maybe just change the end credits music to this so we know that each character had a change of heart about the other, duet style.

That might work!

Exactly. Before the final episode I was imagining numerous scenarios where they would fight but get separated, or where one would think the other was dead, or even where both of them are knocked unconscious like in TLJ and Obi-wan is rescued by his friends before Vader wakes up…

Anything.

The only right answer.

RogueLeader said:

I was curious about Vlad’s interpretation of if Obi-Wan (and by extension Yoda) were wanting or expecting Luke to kill Vader, so I tried to see if I could find Lucas saying anything about it. I did manage to find this quote from Lucas in the Making of Return of the Jedi book.

“The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him. This is the state of affairs that Yoda should refer to.”

I think that lines up with what Vladius is saying.

I don’t think that Luke’s mission in ROTJ was explicitly to kill Vader and Palpatine, only that Luke should be prepared to do so should the need arise. Luke himself points this out and Obi-wan confirms it.

ROTS on the other hand is explicitly an assassination mission for Yoda and Obi-wan, one which Obi-wan believes he has completed by the end of the film.

I think that is where the confusion comes in. Some people say that Jedi aren’t killers or assassins and point to one trilogy to confirm it, while others say that the Jedi can absolutely be assassins and point to another trilogy to confirm it. Kenobi falls directly between the two trilogies and so there’s no stable baseline for Jedi behavior to fall back on, and so people have to justify Obi-wan not completing the explicit orders of his master by saying that it’s not the Jedi way to kill a guy in a lightsaber duel who has forced you into a pit and who’s now standing there astonished by the power of your second wind.

Vader even retains his saber at the end of the fight, so the comparison to Maul is almost one to one.

Matt.F said:

Fan_edit_fan said:

Matt.F said:

Fan_edit_fan said:

Anyway, I stand by my point that a Jedi executing a fallen foe would be completely out of character with the compassion and chivalry that is their code.

Yeah, it’s real chivalrous to get people’s kids to commit murder because you’re just too “compassionate” to carry through with it. Mace Windu was about to split Palpatine in two while he was mutilated on the floor yelling “No don’t!”. Obi-Wan cut Maul in half like a savage…and shot Greivous soo many times he exploded. There’s no “code” in leaving Vader alive in the show, it’s just irresponsible writing.

Yes, of course they kill their opponents in combat (Maul and Greivous). You’ll also remember that Mace had gone to arrest Palpatine - not execute him - before the situation suddenly went nuclear.

How does that change anything I stated? Obi-Wan and Vader were opposing combatants. Mace was trying to arrest with the intent to kill if necessary, you just can’t claim Jedi won’t finish off opponents because of their “chivalrous code”. There’s not even any evidence for it.

The whole saga is based around Anakin executing a fallen opponent and turning to the Dark Side, and Luke sparing a fallen opponent and becoming a true Jedi.

Even in this particular TV show we have this rather memorable line;

“Do you know the key to hunting a Jedi, friend? It is patience. Jedi cannot help what they are. Their compassion leaves a trail.”

Again, both of Luke’s mentors wanted Luke to conquer Vader and the Emperor. Luke’s salvation lay not in obeying his Jedi teachers but in rejecting them. These are the same teachers who say that the Jedi never use the Force for attack, which means that the Jedi way is less about the actions of the Jedi and more about their mental state. If a Jedi is calm and at peace, they will know the correct action, which must include killing an enemy if need be.

If there’s a peaceful way to deal with a vanquished enemy, the Jedi should take it. That is why Anakin killing Dooku was wrong - Dooku could have been captured by Anakin and Obi-wan to stand trial for his crimes. This is also why Mace trying to kill Palpatine was justified - Palpatine would never face justice for his evil.

This is also why it is even more justified that Obi-wan kill Vader. Vader, for all intents and purposes, is the law and Obi-wan is a fugitive. Obi-wan can’t take Vader into custody, can’t hold him to account in a higher court. The only justice within this evil Empire is to resist and rebel, taking matters into one’s own hands, and since Obi-wan doesn’t finish off this evil monster he thus allows for Vader to commit further evil.

It’s a bad idea because at this point in the story Stormtroopers are accurate and brutal soldiers who could easily dispatch two aging farmers.

It’s only later that they became a punchline.

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

Omni said:

Guess now we know why Leia’s lightsaber resembles Obi-Wan’s and she named her son Ben 😃

Hey that’s a good connection!

RL, I was reminded of the GOT scene on Tatooine, it felt like I was listening to a Radio Drama because there was literally nothing visible on screen.

Also, another thing that baffled me was why Obi-wan thought his plan to divert Vader’s attention would work, and also why it did.

Like, Obi-wan knew that Vader had a personal shuttle with which to pursue him in alone, and also had the Grand Inquisitor with which to continue pursuit of the refugees. Yet Vader just diverts the entire Star Destroyer to follow Obi-wan and then just leaves it behind and says that he will now follow Obi-wan alone in his ship. Baffling.

Not really baffling. We see Vader do the exact same thing in TESB. He orders his whole fleet to pursue the Falcon into the asteroid field. And at that moment it is faster to have the Star Destroyer go after Kenobi rather than get in a shuttle or Tie fighter. Kenobi knows what motivated Anakin and Vader is even more obsessive. Until corrected by the Emperor.

The difference is that in ESB the Falcon is the only Rebel ship that hasn’t escaped into Hyperspace. Vader really only has one choice:

1: Find the Falcon at all costs and use it as bait for Luke.
2: Try to follow Luke’s X-wing despite not knowing where it went.

Obviously he will go for option 1.

In Kenobi Vader had at least five choices:

1: Send fighters to immediately disable the transport and/or close the distance in a shuttle and board the transport himself. Obi-wan’s plan fails before it begins.
2: Ignore Kenobi and continue pursuit of the transport. Obi-wan’s plan fails.
3: Send the Grand Inquisitor in the shuttle with some fighters to continue pursuit of the transport while Vader and his Destroyer follows Kenobi. Obi-wan’s plan fails.
4: Follow Kenobi in his shuttle with some fighters and allow the Destroyer to pursue the transport. Obi-wan’s plan fails.
5: Send everything against Kenobi and ignore the other high value targets on the transport, including Leia. Obi-wan’s plan succeeds.

Only a child without object permanence would choose option 5, especially since if they were really so obsessive and blinded by rage they would choose option 1 and win.

And this is only one of several instances where the show tries to show Vader as both an impulsive, unthinking rage monster hellbent on capturing Kenobi and also a character who is so disinterested in finishing the job that he sits back and lets Kenobi escape at least four times in six episodes.

I’m more than willing to engage with these stories on their own terms and have individual villains make sub-optimal decisions based on their established character traits, but if these traits become Flanderized to the point that two of the galaxy’s most powerful villains can’t capture a crippled freighter, don’t blame me for pointing out that their Star Destroyer has become a clown car.

Omni said:

Guess now we know why Leia’s lightsaber resembles Obi-Wan’s and she named her son Ben 😃

Hey that’s a good connection!

RL, I was reminded of the GOT scene on Tatooine, it felt like I was listening to a Radio Drama because there was literally nothing visible on screen.

Also, another thing that baffled me was why Obi-wan thought his plan to divert Vader’s attention would work, and also why it did.

Like, Obi-wan knew that Vader had a personal shuttle with which to pursue him in alone, and also had the Grand Inquisitor with which to continue pursuit of the refugees. Yet Vader just diverts the entire Star Destroyer to follow Obi-wan and then just leaves it behind and says that he will now follow Obi-wan alone in his ship. Baffling.

Final thoughts:

The show was a bit of an uneven mess, if a mostly enjoyable one. I thought there was hope for the Inquisitors in Part 5, but that hope was premature. I’m not even sure what happened with Reva at the end, since the scenes were so unnecessarily dark. Does nobody realize that Tatooine has two suns and three moons? Moonlight in a desert can be downright luminous. Anyway, I thought Reva only wanted to kill Vader. Now she wants to kill a kid. I don’t know why. Does she know it’s Anakin’s kid, and this is retribution? How would she know that, or think that Vader knows? Is it because this kid is important to Obi-wan? Is she going back to her Inquisitor ways? I am genuinely confused as to how and why she did any of this. So as for the Inquisitors, it turns out that they could have been cut entirely, which would be to it’s improvement by avoiding the school shooting imagery in what is otherwise a Saturday morning kid’s show.

The final Vader fight was bizarre. I thought it would end with Obi-wan buried under a pile or rubble and Vader believing that he was dead, thus allowing him to return to a life of anonymity. Alas, it turns into an overpowered slugfest where Obi-wan again fails to kill an unapologetic monster who he believes is beyond saving. It’s just bizarre.

Maybe Qui-gon could have helped Obi-wan in his final fight with Vader, perhaps teaching him a technique to evade Vader and make him believe he was dead. Ah well, at least Qui-gon is in the final scene. Though, I half expected him to stick out his thumb and ask Obi-wan for a ride.

At least we have the Kenobi/Leia story, which I appreciated from beginning to end.

Overall, the show hits the mark about as often as a Stormtrooper, but it takes enough shots that it gets the job done.

BedeHistory731 said:

Admiral Ackbar is an example of a “Glup Shitto” despite the extensive EU fiction around the character.

I don’t think that designation can apply to a character who was introduced by name in the OT.

But Luke would still have to react to something, and ROTJ is a story of forgiveness.

The answer is simple. Replace Anakin’s Force Ghost with that of the Emperor.

BedeHistory731 said:

Turning Anakin into “School Shooter in Space” just pushes him too far into irredeemable, IMHO. I’d say the same thing about the kid bit in Kenobi as well (it felt gratuitous).

This is why the PT and OT are fundamentally incompatible, for me. There’s no universe in which I as an audience member would buy Anakin’s redemption if I knew he slaughtered children.

Twice.

If the editing was up to me, I would make the Sand People scene in AOTC a dream sequence that he later relates to Padme, and have the Temple massacre happen when Anakin is already on Mustafar.

I imagine that George pushed Anakin’s actions to such an extreme because of arguments which happened during ROTJ. I think this was from the Rinzler book, but other members of the team didn’t like the character of Luke essentially excusing his father’s genocide. George’s rebuttal was that this was a fairy tale with religious themes where anyone can be forgiven no matter what, and intentionally went about creating an irredeemable monster in the prequels to prove his point.

I think George gets it wrong, however. Of course in a Christian sense a person can be forgiven for any act, but that is between the sinner and God. Mere mortals aren’t expected to forgive atrocities, and not only is Luke mortal but he is the audience surrogate. For Luke to forgive his father is, in the context of the entire saga, for the audience to forgive the slaughter of children.

It wasn’t always like this. For twenty years, Luke in the OT was fighting for the ‘good man’ who was Anakin Skywalker.

“He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.”
“There is still good in him.”
“He’s more machine now, than man…twisted and evil.”

Anakin in the OT was good up to the time when Luke was born, with his evil coinciding with the replacement of much of his body with metal. Anakin in the PT was a monster before the war. He was never a good man.

Hehe

Yes, those would be good additions I think.

On another note, I was watching the final scene of the film and wondered if anyone had tried removing the old woman and Rey’s dialogue to make it an entirely dialogue-free scene in line with other Star Wars endings. Rey would just stand up after burying the lightsabers, drawn to perhaps a sound effect or whisper, and see the ghosts in the distance.

One weird thing I noticed, not sure if I mis-observed it, but when Obi-wan sets down the hologram of Bail does it look to anyone else like they filmed Bail from below? Because the camera is angled down at the hologram, the effect to me was very strange.