NeverarGreat

I’d like to see it!

Also, in terms of a general update, I got a 5.1 speaker setup for Christmas 😃

I thought there was a good point about villains in this article:

“Our current reality is a complicated one, colored in shades of gray, and we’re well past the fairy-tale idea that in this world there is good and there is evil just because. Movie villains that are simply cackling wrongdoers in this day and age register as false.”

Maybe this is one reason why people have so much of a problem with paltry and secondhand Snoke character elements lifted from the Emperor - the Emperor was a villain from a more morally polarized age.

Mrebo said:

I think there is something to that persuasion stuff but I agree with you, NeverarGreat. I think Adams used his own tricks on himself without realizing it. I think some of his ideas as dangerously wrong - like his “Law of Slow-Moving Disasters.”

Especially when he said this just a few days ago:

“Do you remember when experts said withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord would be a catastrophe? President Trump did it anyway because he didn’t like the deal. I’ve seen no indication that exiting the deal made the climate worse.”

This garbage is even worse than Trump’s lies to me, because he really should know better.

I like the sabers based off of rotating reflective sticks. Makes them look dangerous. It doesn’t hurt that the actors had to be very careful around them to make sure they didn’t break.

For that matter, I’d be all for going back to them using blasters made from real guns.

There’s some real consternation on set when the gunfights are that loud.

TV’s Frink said:

No, however, the creator of Dilbert is, to put it gently, an MRA asshole.

I forgot that he supported Milo Yiannopoulos.

Words fail.

Mrebo said:

The creator of Dilbert writes a lot about Trump’s supposed persuasion techniques. I don’t know. It does seem to work great as a distraction.

He’s a devotee of the Trump: Master Persuader hypothesis.

He predicted that Trump would win ‘in a landslide’, that it would be pretty embarrassing to be anti-Trump near the end of this year, that he would pivot to being presidential before he was elected (then predicted this again right after he was elected), that he would soon have world leaders eating out of his hand, that he would raise the public discourse so much that anyone attacking him would be laughed out of the room, that he wouldn’t attack Syria (he launched an attack the next day), that Trump would quickly build a wall and make Mexico pay for it, and that Trump would unleash some brilliant persuasive weapon against ISIS. This is just the stuff that I recall off the top of my head.

Scott Adams hopes that you don’t go back and review his past predictions, most of which turned out to be laughably inaccurate. But he’s so wedded to the idea of Trump as a brilliant person that he’s gone from being a fun contrarian popular with nerdy Dilbert engineer types to cultivating a petri dish of alt-right trolls in his comments sections.

As a long-time reader of his blog who occasionally ventures back out of morbid curiosity, what he’s done with the place is beyond pathetic.

I think that, for these new TIE and X-wing shots to work, they would need to be created with the technical limitations of 1977 in mind.

For example, in this shot

the TIE moves in a very smooth roll to the left, whereas the ships in the trench would usually only move from side to side.

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Mrebo said:

There are things he has done that I think were good, others were a mixed bag, and some bad. I personally know people who aren’t embarrassingly ignorant nor malevolent that support him. Many of them discount the crazier things he says and/or does.

I’m going to need specific examples of the good things and specific examples of the crazy things they discount.

Like Frink said. Most of the things on that list I gave I would say are good, some I have more mixed/negative feelings on. Pretty much all his outlandish statements are discounted by many supporters. Some just really like heated rhetoric aimed at ‘the enemy.’

Many of his supporters believe that his twitter rants are just an act to draw the media’s attention away from the ‘serious’ work of his administration.

That gives him way to much credit of course.

DominicCobb said:

Two great takes on Luke Skywalker here:

https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/12/29/my-hero-luke-skywalker

https://www.tor.com/2018/01/04/luke-skywalker-isnt-supposed-to-be-nice/

and a cool article on the score:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-field-guide-to-the-musical-leitmotifs-of-star-wars

Good articles, and particularly the last one in illuminating one of the reasons Rian chose to portray Luke wielding his blue lightsaber in the confrontation instead of his green one.

You’ll just have to make do with hibernation mode.

TV’s Frink said:

Not sure if cute or horrifying.

But this is worse.

https://imgur.com/gallery/LdrO6

HerekittykittyX said:

TV’s Frink said:

HerekittykittyX said:

the fans who haven’t seen the prequels.

Those lucky, lucky people.

Agree but if you watch the clone wars it enhances the prequels

If you watch all three prequels together it enhances the prequels since it takes 1/3 the time to watch the prequels.

Gaffer Tape said:

Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.

Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.

Exactly. And that’s why it feels so weird. If it’s only a plot point limited to Rey avoiding the call to adventure, why toy with it further?

As to accents in Star Wars, as someone who is from the American South I found Red Leader’s accent in ‘wait for my signal to start your run’ to be very strange in the original movie. The accent of the Canto Bight alien was also off-putting, and I think it would give the scene much more of an alien feel if he was subtitled with alien dialogue.

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TFA didn’t make a big deal about Rey’s parents, Rey did and people on the internet did.

WYSHS

True. Point being though that only Rey cares and this doesn’t change in TLJ. Anytime she brings up Jakku in TFA people think she’s crazy for still caring. Maz outright tells her to forget about her parents.

Making Rey’s parents an issue was a creative choice in the film. Rey’s pining for her parents was the chip on which the story salsa was conveyed, but she is not independent from the film. TLJ made a point not only that her parents didn’t care about her (which was sort of obvious) but that they were nobody. And why would we have thought they were somebody? Because the film set up that intrigue - deliberately exploiting expectations of people on the internet, to be sure. A film attempting to stand apart from the OT shouldn’t do that.

This point for me is more what Luke would call a “a cheap trick” but it’s there. Can’t pretend it’s solely the fault of fans or that dastardly rogue Rey.

No. No one in TFA asks who Rey’s parents are, not even her. In fact, there’s no reason to believe in TFA that she doesn’t know who they are. They are mentioned a few times, but the question mark is all audience. They are only important for Rey’s character. And in that regard, they are important, sure. Rey is waiting for them. This aspect informs her arc in both films. But there is nothing in TFA that suggests that her parents must be, themselves important, beyond their relationship to Rey. Nothing at all.

If you thought they might be somebody, it’s only because Rey thought so too and hoped so. Which makes her learning that they’re nobody devastating in the same way that Luke learning that his father didn’t die and is no longer a Jedi did in ESB. And that’s a good thing.

Both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi treat Rey’s parentage like a secret. If it wasn’t a secret, then we would have learned who they were in TFA or in the Dark Side cave in TLJ. The fact that it was saved for a dramatic reveal by the villain in a similar fashion to ESB proves at least that Rian Johnson thought it was enough of a secret to go through the motions.

Since Rey is supposedly the viewer avatar for these films, I can only assume that Rey either doesn’t know her parentage or has suppressed that information because it’s too painful, and over the course of two films she gradually comes to the understanding that they really were nobodies. If she had seen the shadowy figures of her parents during the TFA Force vision (and her subconscious aversion to knowing the truth), it would have gone a long way towards communicating that this is her primary weakness.

TV’s Frink said:

NeverarGreat said:

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.

But that’s a good assumption to make, based on the celebratory atmosphere on multiple planets, including the capitol world.

Come on. That’s special edition talk!

He’s got you there. Get outta here!

Hey, you don’t need to like it, but those are the official movies for most people.

I don’t care about most people.

Meaning everyone but me.

Sounds reasonable.

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.

But that’s a good assumption to make, based on the celebratory atmosphere on multiple planets, including the capitol world.

Come on. That’s special edition talk!

He’s got you there. Get outta here!

Hey, you don’t need to like it, but those are the official movies for most people.

DominicCobb said:

Technically we don’t know at the end of ROTJ that the Empire has fallen or that there will be a New Republic. That’s actually established in the crawl of TFA.

But that’s a good assumption to make, based on the celebratory atmosphere on multiple planets, including the capitol world.

That there’s a new big bad Force wielder, however, should have been established with the crawl.

…but I like it anyway, since it really ties the room Saga together.

Who is Snoke?

He may just be some evil dude who does bad stuff, but he’s also sort of a big deal to Luke, Leia, and Han, since he personally wrecks their son and all of their lives and the entire Republic, yet we don’t know the first thing about him. So I think it’s a question worth answering, even if it will almost certainly not pertain to the new trilogy. So here is the backstory I would give him, taking into account the prequels as well:

The Jedi and the Sith are both on quests for immortality. Qui-gon is the first Jedi to discover a way to return from the netherworld of the Force, but the Sith have long known of another way. It is the primary secret of the Sith, since it is never spoken even between master and apprentice.

Consider: The ability to kill in cold blood, completely devoted to the Dark Side, is the single most important quality of the Sith. Combined with the otherwise absurd Rule of Two, it is reasonable to assume that the apprentice killing the master is a time-honored tradition, and in fact is the way that the apprentice knows that they have become the master. A master would not dare train an apprentice if they knew that it would be their end, since the Sith think only of themselves. And so there must be some other reason, and this is the secret: The Sith train apprentices to become vessels for their evil spirits upon death. The rush of the dark side when a sith apprentice kills a master is part of that master’s spirit being imbued with the apprentice, filling them with the power of the Dark Side.

It is established that killing increases one’s power, but only if an apprentice is totally dedicated to the Dark Side in the first place. Han’s death does not increase Kylo’s power, which is why Rey was able to defeat him soon after. Similarly, Anakin’s murder of dozens of students and Separatists leaves him torn in two, and soon after he is broken and burning beside a river of lava.

In Palpatine’s story about Darth Plagueis, he explains that his master was the first Sith powerful and wise enough to save ordinary people from death. It was not enough to save Plagueis, as he was killed in the time honored tradition of the Sith and his spirit was infused with his apprentice, but the wisdom would have to be regained. Palpatine doesn’t want Anakin to kill him yet because it will take time for him to pass on his wisdom to Anakin, but his plan is to eventually do so, if Anakin wishes it. When he reveals himself as a Sith to Anakin, he revels in Anakin’s anger, seeing an apprentice who would not be conflicted about killing him and continuing the Sith line. When he undergoes his transformation, he even speaks of unlimited power. Where did he get such power? From the many Sith that came before him, and that amplified his strength beyond what should be possible in a single lifetime.

But death does come for all, and in Return of the Jedi we see Palpatine’s inevitable downfall. There is an explosion of blue light traveling up and out of the shaft, but since Anakin acted out of love for his son he is not imbued with this evil spirit. It flees out into the universe, seeking another to infect.

Snoke is this other. It doesn’t matter what sort of creature he is or where he came from, for the spirit of the Sith is strong in him. His speech is even similar to Palpatine’s. Based on what we see of his abilities in The Last Jedi, he is stronger than the old Emperor, and this is as expected if Palpatine resided in his soul.

But when Kylo murders him, his spirit does not flee out into the universe. This implies that the Sith now reside in Kylo Ren, the last Skywalker, who has attempted to kill the past but who is now completely controlled by it. His dominant personality may remain the same, but he’s now infected by this evil power.

Snoke is Plagueis.
Snoke is Palpatine.
Snoke is the Sith.
And now so is Kylo.

Mocata said:

Snoke’s origin could have been included as one throwaway line. Which begs the question why does anyone want it, because he was just generic evil guy no.27. He killed someone or did something, who cares.

He turned Han and Leia’s only son to the Dark Side, and through this destroyed Luke’s Jedi academy. He is personally responsible for building a weapon of unfathomable power using unexplained technology, and destroying the entire New Republic.

He is the most personally and inexplicably calamitous force in the lives of the OT characters in The Force Awakens.

Making him into generic evil guy no.27 means that everything our heroes have ever fought for was undone by generic evil guy no.27.

I’m not even that annoyed by it, but I can see how some people would be.

ray_afraid said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

NeverarGreat said:

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.

It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.

Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.

We didn’t need to know who the Emperor was or how he rose to power because that happened before our story started. Wanting to know who this guy is, where he’s been all this time and how he undid what our OT heroes accomplished so quickly is very different.
I got no dog in this fight, but this is a defense I see often and it doesn’t work.

Exactly. The Emperor was a part of the table setting in the original film, taken as a given. If you then change the story, you have to give a reason why.

Say that the OT was never filmed, with the movies going straight from ROTS to TFA. The opening crawl states that some Rebellion arose and destroyed the Empire and Luke overthrew the old regime almost singlehandedly. You’d probably feel cheated out of a pretty important story, wouldn’t you?

DominicCobb said:

As for how they know, as usual the final scene in Star Wars is ambiguously displaced from the timeline of the rest of the film. Who knows when that was.

Agree with everything you said, but ambiguously displaced endings are more of a prequels thing than an OT thing, since in the OT none of the endings require a time jump of more than a few hours.

At one point in the Restructured thread we discussed adding a scene where the Republic agrees to support the Resistance, but it comes too late to stop the destruction of the Hosnian system.

Considering that the Resistance seemingly comes into possession of quite a few ships right after the events of TFA, it makes such a scene all the more appropriate.

I imagine that the scene would happen during the final cutaway to the Resistance, and be in the form of a transmission from an alien diplomat. Something like:

“General, we have heard your plea for help. Reinforcements are being fueled for immediate launch.”

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.